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On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 08:37 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms. The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong. Interestingly this phrasing about "violent Zionist invasion" seems like it is lifted straight from the Hamas charter. Show nested quote +Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world. Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media.Show nested quote +The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a made up book supposedly about plans for Jewish domination of the world. There are more examples of this. Show nested quote +The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "world Zionism" again Jews controlling the world. This isn't about oppression. Any more than it was about oppression when Assad denied the holocaust. They are antisemites. They tell you. Believe them.
That bit sounds to me like he's referring to stuff like AIPAC which unquestionably has an impact on American Policy.
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On December 28 2023 10:36 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 10:24 Razyda wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:
You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil.
The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7.
Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. Big thank you for this bit. I think this is something what many fail to understand. We are mostly raised in European culture and traditions and this often makes our view of other cultures distorted. Judging one culture by the standards of another will always result in diminishing it. One of the reasons why is hard to discard this habit, is simply because it makes us feel good about ourselves (eg: look at this horrible thing they doing, we would have never done this - then comes unavoidable conclusion - we are so much better) I realise this is somewhat of topic, but I wanted to give credits to Magic Powers (with whom I disagree on pretty much everything outside of this thread  ) That’s not understanding other cultures, any more than someone saying the Klu Klux clan are not that bad because they believe their doing good. This should be obvious but the ultra Orthodox Jews doing the settlements ALSO believe that they are doing the “right” things in the eyes of god and morally correct. Why are you not talking about that? Why are they the evil genocidal bastards? The double standards are shocking.
You know what? I will take a break from ignoring you. Bizarrely it feels somewhat fun when you humiliate yourself.
"Klu(lol) Klux clan" - same culture, same area - learn to read
As for your second paragraph: Because I am Polish? and I heard it all before? so I am biased?
When I hear that one country occupy another my sympathy for occupier goes down.
When I hear that same country takes over territory of another, it goes down even further.
When I hear that the same country "defends" itself by invading another one, it goes into negatives and there is no recovery from that.
Double standards part:
Is this you?:
On November 10 2023 23:26 JimmiC wrote:(and to everyone. do the training it’s eye opening, I was biased at certain groups, likely still am but I’m now aware and working on it. I’m going to do it again at some point can not hurt to keep on top of.) https://www.uvic.ca/equity/employment-equity/bias/index.php
This is also you:
On November 30 2023 12:25 JimmiC wrote:
Like do people realize that it is not extreme beliefs in that area to want to kill all Jews, all homosexuals, anyone who has an abortion, any women who has an affair (or in some cases is raped), are in favour of having young women circumcised, forced marriage for girls, and many many other awful things.
Funny thing is I dont think you are Islamophobic, I think you are just (everyone who have different opinions than mine)phobic.
Dont worry though, seems like you will be ale to put in gas chamber all this Nazis who disagree with you...
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United States42509 Posts
On December 28 2023 11:49 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 11:45 KwarK wrote:On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:
Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media. Replace even more words and you get an amazing potato salad recipe. Amazing. And they say antisemitism is dead in this thread.
I didn’t expect to need to state this but whatever, potato salad isn’t antisemitic.
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On December 28 2023 12:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 11:49 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 11:45 KwarK wrote:On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:
Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media. Replace even more words and you get an amazing potato salad recipe. Amazing. And they say antisemitism is dead in this thread. I didn’t expect to need to state this but whatever, potato salad isn’t antisemitic.
Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control Yeah real potato salad to point out this is a classic antisemitic "Jews control the media" claim. Do you really think you are being clever here? It is pretty obvious what you are doing.
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United States42509 Posts
On December 28 2023 12:16 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 12:00 KwarK wrote:On December 28 2023 11:49 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 11:45 KwarK wrote:On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:
Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media. Replace even more words and you get an amazing potato salad recipe. Amazing. And they say antisemitism is dead in this thread. I didn’t expect to need to state this but whatever, potato salad isn’t antisemitic. Show nested quote +Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control Yeah real potato salad to point out this is a classic antisemitic "Jews control the media" claim. Do you really think you are being clever here? It is pretty obvious what you are doing.
Potato salad absolutely does not control the media. What the fuck are you talking about?
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On December 28 2023 11:46 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 03:41 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
I disagree, Hamas exists to destroy Israel and institute Sharia law. Their intentions are not even that well hidden. Iran does not pretend to care about anyone but their own.
It’s westerns who give this strange light of goodness by their own values that just simply do not exist.
In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours. It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas?You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Probably because he views Russia as being on the opposite end of the conflict. Aggressor vs Liberator. You, I imagine, though please correct don't align with that view, but that's kinda the crux of the matter. Either way, it is true that Hamas can't be given that credit given the brutal and criminal nature by which they operate. In this I believe Magic is misguided, what he is saying applies to the Palestinian fight for liberation in a general sense, Hamas' actions are unacceptable. This, however, does not in any way justify or excuse Israel's actions though.
I think this is a decent place to talk about mechanics vs morals. Some of the characteristics of Israel vs Palestine are unique but it is generally true that situations of aggression vs liberation will lead the main violent group that opposes the agressor to be thriving, regardless of what its ulterior goals are. There is an american agressor in your afghan valley, you're willing to fight it with violence, you join the taliban. It's not going to be about the taliban ideology specifically, it's about kicking the enemy out. You probably don't have much of an ideology of your own outside of kicking the enemy out, and as such you'll be vulnerable to adopting the ideology that is popular among your main comrades in the fight.
It takes a profound misunderstanding of humankind to think that Palestinians join Hamas in such large numbers because they're really into Iran or because they really want to inflict a bunch of muslim far right ideas on the minority populations of Palestine. The first impulse is that they want to be liberated from Israel's oppression. Obviously. You could listen to the way Palestinians talk about Israel or about the conflict, but you really shouldn't even have to do that, you should expect things to happen this way.
That's the mechanical part, but the moral part is also true. When the US goes out and the taliban wins, they do institute the taliban regime, they don't suddenly become democrats. So yes, Hamas would do the same if it were to "win" this conflict, which they can't really do anyway so it doesn't really matter.
So that's not often been the case in this thread, but both sides are right you're just not really talking about the same thing. Hamas is mechanically a force that is thriving because it fights to liberate Palestine from oppression, but it is morally objectionable because its ideology is also far right, and also causes unnecessary suffering of Palestinians and Israelis.
In a shocking turn of events, being far right is bad for humans
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On December 28 2023 11:54 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 11:38 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:37 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:22 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 08:10 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:05 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 07:48 Gorsameth wrote:On December 28 2023 07:33 flashymarine wrote:On December 28 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 04:40 flashymarine wrote:
The Natzis from their point of view are doing the best they can to liberate the germanic people. You may condemn their methods and I certainly do but that doesn't change the fact that the German people are oppressed and the oppression is not because of the Natzis.
Someone who says that isn't actually condemning Natzis. That is a statement of support with some plausible deniability built in. The Nazis lied, they didn't believe that German people needed liberation. They believed in supremacy. Now, you can argue that Hamas has its very own supremacist ideas, but that changes very little about the fact that, if Hamas were to succeed, Palestinians would be liberated from at least one oppressor. That doesn't make Hamas any less of an evil force. There's a reason why I condemn both Hamas and various groups in Israel. They believed in German liberation as much as Hamas believes in Palestinian liberation. They were eternal victims. Of the Jews, of the reparations they had to pay to France, to Boleshivism, on and on. Their invasion of Czechoslovakia was justified in that they were liberating the ethnic German people who lived in those lands. You seem to still be stuck trying to process that Israel is oppressing Palestinians. And therefor any discussion that derives from that point is going to go entirely over your head Because it is a nonsense idea. They have rejected every 2 state solution they have been given. They elected Hamas who said this about the Jews in their charter. "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). avalon.law.yale.eduReal freedom fighter energy there. Recognize Israel's right to exist, quit doing terror attacks, and the "oppression" ends. Or alternatively keep hating Jews, attack Israel, and keep this nonsense going for the 80 years. The two-state "solution" was a farce (every single proposal). It heavily favored the Zionists, and there was no basis for it to begin with. The Palestinian leaders were right to reject the UN resolution each time. What's more, after the State of Israel was conceived, the Zionists didn't even attempt to offer a state to the Palestinians, or to restart negotiations otherwise. They were victorious and so they saw no need to negotiate with the loser of the conflict. To them it became a matter of might makes right. This proves the Palestinians right who believed all along that the Zionists were violent invaders and not a civil force. Israel was invaded by its neighbors and you are calling them the violent invaders? You don't get to invade, fail, and then demand everyone agree to your terms. The Zionists and their followers fought violently with the Palestinian population and won. Then the State of Israel was conveived. Then Israel was invaded. You have the timeline wrong. Interestingly this phrasing about "violent Zionist invasion" seems like it is lifted straight from the Hamas charter. Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world. Replace the word Zionist with jew and you see what they are actually saying. Jews control the media.The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a made up book supposedly about plans for Jewish domination of the world. There are more examples of this. The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. "world Zionism" again Jews controlling the world. This isn't about oppression. Any more than it was about oppression when Assad denied the holocaust. They are antisemites. They tell you. Believe them. That bit sounds to me like he's referring to stuff like AIPAC which unquestionably has an impact on American Policy.
Come on dude. The phrase Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control in the same document where they say stuff like "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). and talk about the "protocols of the elders of Zion". You really think this is a nuanced criticism of a lobbying group?
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On December 28 2023 12:32 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 11:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours.
It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas?You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Probably because he views Russia as being on the opposite end of the conflict. Aggressor vs Liberator. You, I imagine, though please correct don't align with that view, but that's kinda the crux of the matter. Either way, it is true that Hamas can't be given that credit given the brutal and criminal nature by which they operate. In this I believe Magic is misguided, what he is saying applies to the Palestinian fight for liberation in a general sense, Hamas' actions are unacceptable. This, however, does not in any way justify or excuse Israel's actions though. I think this is a decent place to talk about mechanics vs morals. Some of the characteristics of Israel vs Palestine are unique but it is generally true that situations of aggression vs liberation will lead the main violent group that opposes the agressor to be thriving, regardless of what its ulterior goals are. There is an american agressor in your afghan valley, you're willing to fight it with violence, you join the taliban. It's not going to be about the taliban ideology specifically, it's about kicking the enemy out. You probably don't have much of an ideology of your own outside of kicking the enemy out, and as such you'll be vulnerable to adopting the ideology that is popular among your main comrades in the fight. It takes a profound misunderstanding of humankind to think that Palestinians join Hamas in such large numbers because they're really into Iran or because they really want to inflict a bunch of muslim far right ideas on the minority populations of Palestine. The first impulse is that they want to be liberated from Israel's oppression. Obviously. You could listen to the way Palestinians talk about Israel or about the conflict, but you really shouldn't even have to do that, you should expect things to happen this way. That's the mechanical part, but the moral part is also true. When the US goes out and the taliban wins, they do institute the taliban regime, they don't suddenly become democrats. So yes, Hamas would do the same if it were to "win" this conflict, which they can't really do anyway so it doesn't really matter. So that's not often been the case in this thread, but both sides are right you're just not really talking about the same thing. Hamas is mechanically a force that is thriving because it fights to liberate Palestine from oppression, but it is morally objectionable because its ideology is also far right, and also causes unnecessary suffering of Palestinians and Israelis. In a shocking turn of events, being far right is bad for humans
Said it better than I could.
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On December 28 2023 12:32 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 11:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours.
It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas?You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Probably because he views Russia as being on the opposite end of the conflict. Aggressor vs Liberator. You, I imagine, though please correct don't align with that view, but that's kinda the crux of the matter. Either way, it is true that Hamas can't be given that credit given the brutal and criminal nature by which they operate. In this I believe Magic is misguided, what he is saying applies to the Palestinian fight for liberation in a general sense, Hamas' actions are unacceptable. This, however, does not in any way justify or excuse Israel's actions though. I think this is a decent place to talk about mechanics vs morals. Some of the characteristics of Israel vs Palestine are unique but it is generally true that situations of aggression vs liberation will lead the main violent group that opposes the agressor to be thriving, regardless of what its ulterior goals are. There is an american agressor in your afghan valley, you're willing to fight it with violence, you join the taliban. It's not going to be about the taliban ideology specifically, it's about kicking the enemy out. You probably don't have much of an ideology of your own outside of kicking the enemy out, and as such you'll be vulnerable to adopting the ideology that is popular among your main comrades in the fight. It takes a profound misunderstanding of humankind to think that Palestinians join Hamas in such large numbers because they're really into Iran or because they really want to inflict a bunch of muslim far right ideas on the minority populations of Palestine. The first impulse is that they want to be liberated from Israel's oppression. Obviously. You could listen to the way Palestinians talk about Israel or about the conflict, but you really shouldn't even have to do that, you should expect things to happen this way. That's the mechanical part, but the moral part is also true. When the US goes out and the taliban wins, they do institute the taliban regime, they don't suddenly become democrats. So yes, Hamas would do the same if it were to "win" this conflict, which they can't really do anyway so it doesn't really matter. So that's not often been the case in this thread, but both sides are right you're just not really talking about the same thing. Hamas is mechanically a force that is thriving because it fights to liberate Palestine from oppression, but it is morally objectionable because its ideology is also far right, and also causes unnecessary suffering of Palestinians and Israelis. In a shocking turn of events, being far right is bad for humans
Raping women and firing rockets at civilians doesn't liberate anyone. You really underestimate the power of fanatical ideology. No one was oppressing the Japanese or Germans. No one was oppressing the Catholics when they decided to do the crusades. No one was oppressing the Protestants when they fought the catholics. On the other hand there have been many groups that have been historically oppressed who have not waged an 80 year terrorist campaign. There are a lot of groups who never got a country or lost part of their land or were forced to move that never waged a war.
This framing of oppressor/oppressed is trying to put a Western lens on people who don't subscribe to it. We care about individual rights and oppressed people. To them Islam is much more important. Look at every country in the middle east. They don't care about the Palestinians. They don't care when Assad butchers his own people or Saudi Arabia kills people in Yemen. And yet they all still hate Israel. It is because of ideology, not because of oppression.
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On December 28 2023 13:18 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 11:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours.
It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas?You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Probably because he views Russia as being on the opposite end of the conflict. Aggressor vs Liberator. You, I imagine, though please correct don't align with that view, but that's kinda the crux of the matter. Either way, it is true that Hamas can't be given that credit given the brutal and criminal nature by which they operate. In this I believe Magic is misguided, what he is saying applies to the Palestinian fight for liberation in a general sense, Hamas' actions are unacceptable. This, however, does not in any way justify or excuse Israel's actions though. I don’t believe Israel is the liberator. I do not believe either are. I do lot understand how people can think Hamas is. Palestinians certainly could be, Fatah could be, Hamas is not. I believe peoples need to have a good guy and bad guy leads them to make up reasons that make “Hamas” good because they can’t wrap their heads around the multiple bad guy reality. With Hamas being rotten all the way through, from how they treat their own people to how they treat anyone they see as an other less than human. It’s too bad idiots like Rayzda can’t see that you can be critical of Hamas and not hate Arabs. Being critical of Hamas is because of how they treat Palestinians as much as how they want to drive the Jews into the ocean. You all should be thinking more critically of why you are in lock step with Rayzda and nettles on this topic.
You had me till here. Idk what Rayzda was on with his last post. I do agree that people are trapping themselves unnecessarily by even implying any positive characteristics of Hamas. From what I can tell there is a belief among many here that violent resistance against military forces is justified. There does need to be acknowledgment that yes, if that's what we saw we'd find it far more agreeable, what we actually see is not that. Neither Hamas nor Israel confines their efforts to military targets and quite despicably harm civilians far more and too often.
While I agree that you can be critical of Hamas and not hate Arabs, I do think you're statement about extremist views not being extreme in the area is a little unfair. They certainly exist, are problematic, and should be addressed, but they also unquestionably exist in America, I'm sure they exist in Europe too.
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United States42509 Posts
If we’re still on this morning’s argument then it never went close to as far as saying Hamas are justified. It was literally just that Hamas think that Hamas are justified which should have been non controversial but apparently wasn’t.
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Re: two state solution, numerous Israeli government officials including their current leader have openly stated that they have no interest in a two state solution and that they have done their best to prevent it from happening.
And yet we still have people claiming it's entirely the Palestinians' fault. Bizarre.
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On December 28 2023 13:01 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 12:32 Nebuchad wrote:On December 28 2023 11:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
I didn’t say what you are saying I did.
Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith.
You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas?You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Probably because he views Russia as being on the opposite end of the conflict. Aggressor vs Liberator. You, I imagine, though please correct don't align with that view, but that's kinda the crux of the matter. Either way, it is true that Hamas can't be given that credit given the brutal and criminal nature by which they operate. In this I believe Magic is misguided, what he is saying applies to the Palestinian fight for liberation in a general sense, Hamas' actions are unacceptable. This, however, does not in any way justify or excuse Israel's actions though. I think this is a decent place to talk about mechanics vs morals. Some of the characteristics of Israel vs Palestine are unique but it is generally true that situations of aggression vs liberation will lead the main violent group that opposes the agressor to be thriving, regardless of what its ulterior goals are. There is an american agressor in your afghan valley, you're willing to fight it with violence, you join the taliban. It's not going to be about the taliban ideology specifically, it's about kicking the enemy out. You probably don't have much of an ideology of your own outside of kicking the enemy out, and as such you'll be vulnerable to adopting the ideology that is popular among your main comrades in the fight. It takes a profound misunderstanding of humankind to think that Palestinians join Hamas in such large numbers because they're really into Iran or because they really want to inflict a bunch of muslim far right ideas on the minority populations of Palestine. The first impulse is that they want to be liberated from Israel's oppression. Obviously. You could listen to the way Palestinians talk about Israel or about the conflict, but you really shouldn't even have to do that, you should expect things to happen this way. That's the mechanical part, but the moral part is also true. When the US goes out and the taliban wins, they do institute the taliban regime, they don't suddenly become democrats. So yes, Hamas would do the same if it were to "win" this conflict, which they can't really do anyway so it doesn't really matter. So that's not often been the case in this thread, but both sides are right you're just not really talking about the same thing. Hamas is mechanically a force that is thriving because it fights to liberate Palestine from oppression, but it is morally objectionable because its ideology is also far right, and also causes unnecessary suffering of Palestinians and Israelis. In a shocking turn of events, being far right is bad for humans Raping women and firing rockets at civilians doesn't liberate anyone. You really underestimate the power of fanatical ideology. No one was oppressing the Japanese or Germans. No one was oppressing the Catholics when they decided to do the crusades. No one was oppressing the Protestants when they fought the catholics. On the other hand there have been many groups that have been historically oppressed who have not waged an 80 year terrorist campaign. There are a lot of groups who never got a country or lost part of their land or were forced to move that never waged a war. This framing of oppressor/oppressed is trying to put a Western lens on people who don't subscribe to it. We care about individual rights and oppressed people. To them Islam is much more important. Look at every country in the middle east. They don't care about the Palestinians. They don't care when Assad butchers his own people or Saudi Arabia kills people in Yemen. And yet they all still hate Israel. It is because of ideology, not because of oppression.
To be fair the same can still be said for the fanatical Christians in southern USA.
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On December 27 2023 19:16 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2023 19:11 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 27 2023 18:55 Nebuchad wrote:On December 27 2023 16:58 Cerebrate1 wrote:On December 25 2023 02:14 Nebuchad wrote:On December 25 2023 01:39 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 23:37 Nebuchad wrote:On December 24 2023 23:07 flashymarine wrote:On December 24 2023 19:12 Magic Powers wrote:
Just because you don't agree with the use of the term "ethnic cleansing" doesn't mean it doesn't fit the bill. People like to argue that it's not Israel's intent, or that the outcome proves that it's not ethnic cleansing. That's not how it works. Murder for example is always murder whether it was intended or not. Likewise shooting at someone with a gun is lethal force whether it results in death or not. Ethnic cleansing: Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group Thanks for this helpful definition. Maybe you should call the dictionary and tell them to add those other things that you mentioned afterwards in the definition, that way your claim would be correct. Until then, I guess we'll stick with this definition, and under this definition Israel is obviously doing it. Nope sorry try again. They never rendered any area ethnically homogenous. Words have meanings. Sure they did. All of the areas that they settled. First of all, I'm glad everyone seems to be in the same understanding now that the term "ethnic cleansing" does not apply to the general regions of Gaza or the West Bank since clearly neither area is homogenously Jewish. It's good to find common ground. You have shifted the discussion to a few dots on the map of the West Bank that have settlements on them to suggest that the term does apply to that limited area as long as you look at it in isolation. Meaning, those neighborhoods are homogenously Jewish even though they are surrounded by and divided by neighborhoods that are homogenously Arab. The problem is, even if you just look at the settlements, half of the term still doesn't apply. The wording used by the UN again was "rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." People were not removed from the area of settlements in order to build them. Some houses were purchased, but the vast majority of settlements were built on undeveloped wilderness areas. The only beings removed from those areas were squirrels. Every other ethnic cleansing in history involved people fleeing their homes en masse. And there are lots of historical cases that fit the definition exactly, so it's not even as if the definition is too narrow. Rather, the way that those areas were made homogenously Israeli (as opposed to homogenously uninhabited) was by building houses and selling them to Israelis. Not to say that everything in the settlements is sunshine and rainbows (for anyone who is reading this post out of context of the posts I'm replying to), but this particular back and forth has been about using the specific phrase "ethnic cleansing." That phrase is not being accurately applied in this conflict. Can you write a long post about what's not sunshine and rainbows? It's not clear to me if you have a legitimate query or are just trying to be cheeky. If it's the former, I ask that you speak out more clearly what information you are looking for. It's just that you seem to have eliminated all of the negative components from the Israeli settlements. In your answer to Kwark they're not even removing Palestinians with violence, they're just quietly settling in uninhabited areas. But despite all of those benign activities, we're still learning in your conclusion that it's not all sunshine and rainbows, for reasons that are not very clear in your post, so I was wondering what those reasons are.
To clarify: my note about the sunshine and rainbows was more a disclaimer than part of my conclusion. The topic at hand was "is the phrase ethnic cleansing being used accurately in regards to this conflict?" My conclusion based on the actual definition of the phrase was "no it is not."
The problem is, certain people here (not all) don't read posts within the context of what is being responded to (or read my posts very carefully in general). So if I had just written my conclusion on the use of a phrase, people would assume that that somehow meant that I also condone the news story they read about some settler being an ass hat one time or the like. I was just heading that off to keep attention focused on the topic at hand and clarify that I was not commenting on any other topics with my post.
Therefore, I only mentioned points that were relevant to the definition of the phrase in question. Are there other issues in this conflict that don't relate to that phrase? Of course. There are two peoples with competing interests in the same region, so conflict has arisen in many shapes and forms. You don't need me to create a list for you of all the problems that have come from that, just peruse this thread for examples. Some things I have explicitly condemned. Some, I have qualified by giving the Israeli perspective on why they find something necessary, but I still expressed sadness at the result. Some, were misleading or inaccurate and I argued (this tends to be where I spill the most ink because it takes more words to explain a new perspective than to agree.)
If it makes you feel better though, here are a few examples:
-Security checkpoints. I've explained in depth already why Israelis see them as necessary, but I also understand how Palestinians would oppose them.
-Self determination. I've mentioned that this is, in my opinion, the most reasonable (and not hyperbolic for the sake of emotional appeal) concern about settlements. They reduce the profile of a future Palestinian state.
-Someone else mentioned that we sometimes end up with a situation where Israelis with the most extreme views are the ones living in closest proximity to Palestinians. I don't think I commented on that because I felt it was a fairly straightforward point, but I agree that that can lead to problems.
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On December 28 2023 16:01 Salazarz wrote:
Re: two state solution, numerous Israeli government officials including their current leader have openly stated that they have no interest in a two state solution and that they have done their best to prevent it from happening.
And yet we still have people claiming it's entirely the Palestinians' fault. Bizarre.
I mean, every Palestinian leader who rejected a two state proposal (of which there have been many over the decades) is certainly to blame for not taking the bird in hand while the opportunity was staring them in the face. But I would also put the various Arab nations on the responsible list (possibly higher even), for exerting so much influence on Palestinians to always choose violence and the chance of taking everything over any two state deal. At least for the first half of the conflict. After Egypt made peace with Israel, Iran took over that role, so they are at fault more recently. But the last 14 years of the 75 year conflict, Bibi also played a role, so I'll give you that.
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On December 28 2023 13:01 flashymarine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 12:32 Nebuchad wrote:On December 28 2023 11:46 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
I didn’t say what you are saying I did.
Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith.
You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. I’m also sure that some of the Russian soldiers have drank the propaganda and believe they are righteously denazifying Ukraine and saving them from the Western oppression. So why exactly do you not talk about Russians the way you do Hamas?You writing he Hamas was born and he they recruit does not help your point. I am completely aware that the Hamas leadership is using the Israeli aggression and oppression to further their own goals and use the Palestinians as a worthless meat shield to accomplish them. That is a large part of my point. If most of you just admitted that you thought of Hamas as freedom fighters forced to do awful things by the evil Israelis, we could have a discussion on why I would disagree with that. But this pretending to try to keep some art of high ground does not allow for actual discussion. Pick a lane on the Hamas organization. Yes I feel sorry for the brainwashed foot soldiers and civilians being sacrificed. But I was one of the few who felt bad for the same Russians. Many of you had no pity for the Russians but tons for Hamas. Probably because he views Russia as being on the opposite end of the conflict. Aggressor vs Liberator. You, I imagine, though please correct don't align with that view, but that's kinda the crux of the matter. Either way, it is true that Hamas can't be given that credit given the brutal and criminal nature by which they operate. In this I believe Magic is misguided, what he is saying applies to the Palestinian fight for liberation in a general sense, Hamas' actions are unacceptable. This, however, does not in any way justify or excuse Israel's actions though. I think this is a decent place to talk about mechanics vs morals. Some of the characteristics of Israel vs Palestine are unique but it is generally true that situations of aggression vs liberation will lead the main violent group that opposes the agressor to be thriving, regardless of what its ulterior goals are. There is an american agressor in your afghan valley, you're willing to fight it with violence, you join the taliban. It's not going to be about the taliban ideology specifically, it's about kicking the enemy out. You probably don't have much of an ideology of your own outside of kicking the enemy out, and as such you'll be vulnerable to adopting the ideology that is popular among your main comrades in the fight. It takes a profound misunderstanding of humankind to think that Palestinians join Hamas in such large numbers because they're really into Iran or because they really want to inflict a bunch of muslim far right ideas on the minority populations of Palestine. The first impulse is that they want to be liberated from Israel's oppression. Obviously. You could listen to the way Palestinians talk about Israel or about the conflict, but you really shouldn't even have to do that, you should expect things to happen this way. That's the mechanical part, but the moral part is also true. When the US goes out and the taliban wins, they do institute the taliban regime, they don't suddenly become democrats. So yes, Hamas would do the same if it were to "win" this conflict, which they can't really do anyway so it doesn't really matter. So that's not often been the case in this thread, but both sides are right you're just not really talking about the same thing. Hamas is mechanically a force that is thriving because it fights to liberate Palestine from oppression, but it is morally objectionable because its ideology is also far right, and also causes unnecessary suffering of Palestinians and Israelis. In a shocking turn of events, being far right is bad for humans Raping women and firing rockets at civilians doesn't liberate anyone. You really underestimate the power of fanatical ideology. No one was oppressing the Japanese or Germans. No one was oppressing the Catholics when they decided to do the crusades. No one was oppressing the Protestants when they fought the catholics. On the other hand there have been many groups that have been historically oppressed who have not waged an 80 year terrorist campaign. There are a lot of groups who never got a country or lost part of their land or were forced to move that never waged a war. This framing of oppressor/oppressed is trying to put a Western lens on people who don't subscribe to it. We care about individual rights and oppressed people. To them Islam is much more important. Look at every country in the middle east. They don't care about the Palestinians. They don't care when Assad butchers his own people or Saudi Arabia kills people in Yemen. And yet they all still hate Israel. It is because of ideology, not because of oppression.
It is very easy to disprove your hypothesis that islam is the problem by looking at the real world, a place in which islam exists in a multitude of countries with all kinds of flavors of fundamentalism, but yet Palestine is the place where Hamas keeps recruiting a significant percentage of the young male population. People don't generally wake up one day in Iraq and think, "Hey, I'm muslim and that's important to me, I lack western values, time to join Hamas". Looks like something specific is happening in Palestine.
Let me offer an alternative hypothesis: maybe Palestinians are human beings, and much like any other group of human beings in history and today, they don't find it very pleasant to be oppressed by a different group, and they're reacting. But to be fair I did use the Western Concept of Ockham's Razor to reach this conclusion, so maybe that's just my western values talking.
I'm sure glad that I was born in The West, the only place in the world where people have ever cared about individual rights and oppressed people. How could you ever develop things like empathy or the notion that harm happening to humans is bad if you didn't have some prick Voltaire living in the same general area as you a few centuries ago to Enlighten it? But yet using my critical thinking cap, I couldn't help but notice that The West seems to be extremely complacent with Israel while it doesn't respect the individual rights of Palestinian people, and that the rest of the world seems much more willing to demand a ceasefire than we are.
What if... gasp, what if The West is actually not special at all, and it contains, much like the rest of the world, some humans who are leftists and care about individual rights and oppressed people, such as me, and some other humans to whom it comes very naturally to dehumanize entire populations of their fellow humans, such as you?
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On December 28 2023 17:44 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 16:01 Salazarz wrote:
Re: two state solution, numerous Israeli government officials including their current leader have openly stated that they have no interest in a two state solution and that they have done their best to prevent it from happening.
And yet we still have people claiming it's entirely the Palestinians' fault. Bizarre. I mean, every Palestinian leader who rejected a two state proposal (of which there have been many over the decades) is certainly to blame for not taking the bird in hand while the opportunity was staring them in the face. But I would also put the various Arab nations on the responsible list (possibly higher even), for exerting so much influence on Palestinians to always choose violence and the chance of taking everything over any two state deal. At least for the first half of the conflict. After Egypt made peace with Israel, Iran took over that role, so they are at fault more recently. But the last 14 years of the 75 year conflict, Bibi also played a role, so I'll give you that.
Netanyahu wasn't the only Israeli leader to sabotage attempts at a two state solution. Every deal offered to Palestinians came with huge caveats and fell way short; of course any of those deals would still be better than having their cities flattened by Israel the way its happening right now, but that's like saying the nerdy kid is to blame for not just giving up his cookies to the bully because the alternative of getting the shit beat out of him and still losing the cookies as well as the rest of his lunch is worse, and also if he just wasn't such a dork he wouldn't get bullied so why don't you all stop pointing fingers at the bully already and instead focus on the real problem which is the nerd!
But hey, at least you're admitting that the guy who straight up said, 'I don't want a two state solution, I am proud of making sure it has not happened and I will do my best to continue making sure it never happens!' has 'also played a role' ROFL.
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On December 28 2023 09:54 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2023 09:27 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 08:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 06:09 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 05:47 Magic Powers wrote:On December 28 2023 03:41 JimmiC wrote:On December 28 2023 02:25 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I didn't say Hamas will in fact bring freedom to Palestinians, I said Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. This is from their point of view. They think Palestinians are oppressed because they're under Israel's thumb. Hamas believe that they can liberate them.
You can question Hamas all you want, you can argue as much as you want that they're in the wrong. You will get all of my support on that. It changes nothing about the fact that Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel, and that this is a major reason why Hamas exists. I disagree, Hamas exists to destroy Israel and institute Sharia law. Their intentions are not even that well hidden. Iran does not pretend to care about anyone but their own. It’s westerns who give this strange light of goodness by their own values that just simply do not exist. In our eyes Sharia Law is oppressive, but for Hamas it's the only correct way to live. Liberation has a different meaning for religious fundamentalists than it does for people in more liberal countries like ours. It's also important to show that, just because Israel has a more progressive or liberal approach to its social norms compared to various Arab nations, that doesn't mean that their own oppression of Palestinians can be excused. As always, two wrongs don't make a right. Palestinians need to figure out their own liberation after they've received freedom from Israel's oppression. I didn’t say what you are saying I did. Bottom line is Hamas intentions have nothing to do with freeing the Palestinians. They are an arm of Iran which is trying to rule the entiee Middle East for only those who think exactly like them and only those with the proper birthright to rule. That you and many others excuse this behaviour is wrong to me and confused me. They are worse objectively than all the fascists everyone is willing to kill. No need to excuse it, because I don’t give a fuck if they believe a warped version of Islam gives them the divine right any more than I would some wacky evil Christian faith. You still don't understand. Hamas has two goals. One is to liberate Palestinians from Israel. The other is to rule people in the aftermath. These are not contradictory goals. You also don't understand that we're not excusing their behavior, we're explaining it. We can condemn them, but we can also understand where they're coming from. No, you do not understand. You are giving them western values that they do not have, nor profess to have. You don’t use the human shield strategy with women and children of people you value. No, you do not understand. I'm not arguing that Hamas are good people. They are evil through and through. That changes nothing about them wanting to liberate Palestinians. They believe that, for the sake of liberation, it is justified to sacrifice Palestinians, too. Sorry you’re wrong, Hamas is just Irans puppets and their leadership cares as little about the Palestinians as Israel and treats them worse. Edit: your original post I argued you said that Hamas wants to liberate Palestinians which is not true, they want to be the only oppressor and you stated they are not currently oppressing which is also blatantly false for all Palestinians but no way you can not argue that they are not oppressing all the women. Hamas are much more than just puppets with guns. They have their own agenda, their own world view. They're sponsored by terrorist states, but at the end of the day they're all individual Palestinians sacrificing their lives for the same goal. They didn't just suddenly get money from a terrorist state and that turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths. That's not how this works. Their desire to kill every Jew did not come from surrounding states, it came from within Gaza. They were born into an oppressive environment that is breeding ground for extremism. The money only funds them, but their views were inherited from their close environment. Most Hamas members believe that they're being righteous. They're on a crusade against an evil oppressor. They do not believe that they're in the wrong. They work tirelessly to find new ways to destroy Israel, and this drive comes from a deep hatred for their oppressors. And that's the fundamental problem. Hamas are indeed up against an oppressor. If Israel was peaceful, not showing any meaningful aggression against Palestinians, then Hamas would be nothing but a farce. A lie. They would be literally like the Nazis. Comic book villains practically. But unfortunately Hamas are born into oppression, and that changes the equation quite dramatically. It means that Hamas are not puppets, they're authentic. They'd want to destroy Israel regardless of who leads them. Hamas do want to liberate Palestinians. They think that Israel is evil through and through. This is how they justify their own evil actions. They ask a simple question: if they're up against the greatest of all evils, and if this evil cannot be defeated with goodness, then why wouldn't Hamas be permitted - or required - to commit evil, too? Their thinking is of course a fallacy, but it is a very understandable fallacy when you understand where Hamas are coming from. Oppressed from birth, with no future. Maybe then you can see why they become so radicalized out of their own volition. They're self-determined. You don't understand Hamas on a fundamental level if you don't understand that Sharia Law has nothing to do with any of this. Hamas are not evil because they want Sharia Law. For Hamas, Sharia Law is strictly the only good and right way to live. It's as obvious to them as democracy is to us. Sharia Law is not the reason why Hamas is evil. The real reason why Hamas is evil is because they want to kill the Jews. They've proven it most recently by committing the act on October 7. Therefore all of the following is true. Hamas want to liberate Palestinians. Hamas want to rule Palestinians. Hamas believe that they're good, and that Israel is evil. First you might be talking about their general brainwashed foot soldier and not their ultra wealthy leadership. And I’m sure some of them have some thoughts of righteousness but I would suspect most are driven by hate. But without the brainwashed foot soldiers Hamas cannot exist.
Rich leaders sitting in another country hating jews don't cause atrocities like oct 7th without an army of soldiers who actually believe in the cause.
The way to end a terrorist organisation is not to bomb everything back into the stone age and kill a couple 100k extra innocent civilians. That just radicalises the next wave of future soldiers and ensured that no matter if you end Hamas or not something else equally bad (or worse) would just take its place.
Step 1 is to remove their fertile feeding ground from which they recruit by ensuring the next generation doesn't grow up oppressed and hating Israel but instead has a future worth living for.
This conflict will; not end until Palestinians have a future worth living for.
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EPT
