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On December 29 2023 06:52 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 06:48 RenSC2 wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator.
Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths.
Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument.
It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist.
Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. Ah, so if a large number of people agree that slavery is good and the natural order of things (or ordained by God), then it’s not oppression. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess there is no objective reality. What, are your surprised? Slavery used to be considered a norm across the globe. Yes indeed, during those days it was not considered extremist to hold slaves. Guess what, it was also not considered extremist that women should be second class citizens. Or that little children should work in coal mines. Good thing we didn't live during those days with our current views, because people would've hunted us out of town.
Oh, yes, it was once quite normal. However, it was always oppression even if it was widely supported. What Hamas wants to implement is also oppression whether a bunch of people in the Muslim world agree with it or not.
What Hamas and various other of Israel's neighbors are doing is also oppression. Israel is being forced to live like in a fortress. The attacks haven't stopped since 1948. When the Israelis let their guard down at all, over a thousand people get slaughtered. They're forced to spend huge sums of money on military equipment, soldiers, and walls just to keep themselves safe. All of that money could be spent on improving the lives of their citizens if their neighbors weren't oppressing them.
When the Israeli government fails to protect their citizens, they get accused of letting it happen rather than blaming the aggressor for being aggressive. Everything they're doing now in Gaza is a response to the oppression they have faced. They're finally willing to stop being so peaceful and instead take the fight back to those who oppress them and have oppressed them since their founding (including various precursor groups to Hamas).
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On December 29 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 06:37 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. Israel is not being oppressed by Hamas, but Hamas oppresses their constituents. But even if we ignore the whole oppression component of Hamas, the fact that their goals are very clearly stated as extending beyond Israel means it isn't sufficient or even honest to frame the situation as Hamas being entirely internal to the Israel-Palestine conflict.Mahmoud al-Zahar is the co-founder of Hamas, so I think his perspective on the goals of Hamas are relevant here.
"The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
Hamas as a movement has evolved a lot over the course of its existence, and has borrowed from this and that over the course of its evolution. Changes in leadership and developing global political situations have led to certain voices being stronger or weaker over time. The root of the current form of Hamas can be traced back to the Ottoman empire. Pan-Islamism has of course been around for a very long time, but the current context of pan-Islamism became louder towards the end of the Ottoman empire and then became 1 of 2 dominant perspectives after the fall of the Ottoman empire. In the early years after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arab nationalism dominated and suppressed pan-islamism and islamists were oppressed and tortured and whatnot to prevent them from gaining too much power and overthrowing Arab nationalists. Pan-Islamism was mostly dead in the dirt in the 1950s, largely because Nasser was remarkably successful as the leader of Egypt and had a couple really clutch military wins against the west during his rule. But when he got cocky and overextended, he basically went all-in and lost everything during the 6 day war. After the 6 day war, Arab nationalism was on life support and pan-islamism became dominant again. But its important to keep in mind pan-islamism, despite being a major component of the current form of Hamas, was not some kind of reaction to Israel. Pan-Islamism has been around for a very long time. Pan-Islamism has been the enemy of Arab nationalism, then the enemy of colonialism, then the enemy of the west as a whole, and so on and so forth. Its not that pan-Islamism wouldn't exist without Israel. Israel is just the best rallying cry for Islamists at the moment. The quote I included above from one of Hamas's founders does not make sense if we assume Hamas's ideology is just some kinda "freedom fighter" movement against Israel. But it makes complete sense when you contextualize it within the history of Arab nationalism, pan-islamism, and the general idea of a caliphate. I just wanted to take the time to elaborate on why I have said Hamas isn't some kind of Israel-exclusive movement and that Israel not existing would have prevented the whole thing. It is an extension of pan-Islamism, and we have a wealth of information and history to show us where Hamas leadership got their ideas, and the history of those ideas. Events in history can give a movement and ideology a lot of extra power, but we have seen highs and lows in both Arab nationalism and pan-Islamism throughout history. We can't pretend this whole problem goes away in some fictitious situation where Israel never existed to begin with. We even have their own words, shown above, that clearly indicate what the goals of pan-Islamism are. Apparently this keeps going over people's heads. I'm not arguing that Hamas' conquest would, if successful, remain restricted to Israel or Palestine. I didn't say that anywhere. What I'm saying is that Hamas can reasonably argue that they're fighting against oppressors. This point is indisputable, because Israel is in fact an oppressor of Palestinians. Whether we like it or not, this gives credibility to Hamas' call to violence of Palestinians against the Israeli population. Since Palestinians are in fact oppressed by Israel, therefore Hamas cannot be strictly labeled a pure evil. Instead they're an evil born out of oppression. You may not like to hear this, but it's true. Hamas is fueled by righteousness, not by bloodlust. Their bloodlust follows from their righteousness. Whatever other calls for violence Hamas sends out to Palestinians - against people outside of Israel and against non-Jews - are simply a result of the existing extremist views against Israel. Everything follows. The US supports Israel. The UN is powerless to stop the US. European nations are not sanctioning the US for supporting Israel, and instead engaged in open trade. And so forth. The whole train of thought goes from "destroy Israel" to "destroy every supporter of Israel", because the root of Hamas' righteousness is true: Israel oppresses the Palestinians. As long as this one idea is true, every other idea follows. Hamas is therefore not inherently evil (as the Nazis were). Their evil actions are caused by their righteousness. Hamas can only be destroyed after Israel has stopped oppressing Palestinians.
Its not novel to point out that people think what they are doing is good. I don't doubt many of these Islamist dipshits think they have the right idea. But moral relativism has no value, and it doesn't mean anything for someone to think they are doing something good. They are doing bad things and there's no incentive to pat them on the head for being wrong about something.
If you read what I said, you will see that Hamas's ideology was not born out of oppression because it predates Israel. They have been fighting against this and that for a long time. Israel is just the big rallying cry for them right now. Pan-Islamist ideology being appealing to enemies of Israel does not mean the ideology was born from Israel.
The ideology that currently dominates Hamas existed before Israel. Israel is something their ideology totally hates, but it would exist with or without Israel. We know this because it existed before Israel.
Maybe its worth just pausing at this point and asking if this makes sense and if you agree. Do you think pan-islamist ideology existed before Israel? Do you think the founding members of Hamas and the movements that came before Hamas held pan-islamist views prior to the formation of Israel?
Edit: Are you familiar with the history of Arab Nationalism's conflict with pan-Islamist ideology both before and after the fall of the Ottoman empire?
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On December 29 2023 07:08 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:37 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. Israel is not being oppressed by Hamas, but Hamas oppresses their constituents. But even if we ignore the whole oppression component of Hamas, the fact that their goals are very clearly stated as extending beyond Israel means it isn't sufficient or even honest to frame the situation as Hamas being entirely internal to the Israel-Palestine conflict.Mahmoud al-Zahar is the co-founder of Hamas, so I think his perspective on the goals of Hamas are relevant here.
"The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
Hamas as a movement has evolved a lot over the course of its existence, and has borrowed from this and that over the course of its evolution. Changes in leadership and developing global political situations have led to certain voices being stronger or weaker over time. The root of the current form of Hamas can be traced back to the Ottoman empire. Pan-Islamism has of course been around for a very long time, but the current context of pan-Islamism became louder towards the end of the Ottoman empire and then became 1 of 2 dominant perspectives after the fall of the Ottoman empire. In the early years after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arab nationalism dominated and suppressed pan-islamism and islamists were oppressed and tortured and whatnot to prevent them from gaining too much power and overthrowing Arab nationalists. Pan-Islamism was mostly dead in the dirt in the 1950s, largely because Nasser was remarkably successful as the leader of Egypt and had a couple really clutch military wins against the west during his rule. But when he got cocky and overextended, he basically went all-in and lost everything during the 6 day war. After the 6 day war, Arab nationalism was on life support and pan-islamism became dominant again. But its important to keep in mind pan-islamism, despite being a major component of the current form of Hamas, was not some kind of reaction to Israel. Pan-Islamism has been around for a very long time. Pan-Islamism has been the enemy of Arab nationalism, then the enemy of colonialism, then the enemy of the west as a whole, and so on and so forth. Its not that pan-Islamism wouldn't exist without Israel. Israel is just the best rallying cry for Islamists at the moment. The quote I included above from one of Hamas's founders does not make sense if we assume Hamas's ideology is just some kinda "freedom fighter" movement against Israel. But it makes complete sense when you contextualize it within the history of Arab nationalism, pan-islamism, and the general idea of a caliphate. I just wanted to take the time to elaborate on why I have said Hamas isn't some kind of Israel-exclusive movement and that Israel not existing would have prevented the whole thing. It is an extension of pan-Islamism, and we have a wealth of information and history to show us where Hamas leadership got their ideas, and the history of those ideas. Events in history can give a movement and ideology a lot of extra power, but we have seen highs and lows in both Arab nationalism and pan-Islamism throughout history. We can't pretend this whole problem goes away in some fictitious situation where Israel never existed to begin with. We even have their own words, shown above, that clearly indicate what the goals of pan-Islamism are. Apparently this keeps going over people's heads. I'm not arguing that Hamas' conquest would, if successful, remain restricted to Israel or Palestine. I didn't say that anywhere. What I'm saying is that Hamas can reasonably argue that they're fighting against oppressors. This point is indisputable, because Israel is in fact an oppressor of Palestinians. Whether we like it or not, this gives credibility to Hamas' call to violence of Palestinians against the Israeli population. Since Palestinians are in fact oppressed by Israel, therefore Hamas cannot be strictly labeled a pure evil. Instead they're an evil born out of oppression. You may not like to hear this, but it's true. Hamas is fueled by righteousness, not by bloodlust. Their bloodlust follows from their righteousness. Whatever other calls for violence Hamas sends out to Palestinians - against people outside of Israel and against non-Jews - are simply a result of the existing extremist views against Israel. Everything follows. The US supports Israel. The UN is powerless to stop the US. European nations are not sanctioning the US for supporting Israel, and instead engaged in open trade. And so forth. The whole train of thought goes from "destroy Israel" to "destroy every supporter of Israel", because the root of Hamas' righteousness is true: Israel oppresses the Palestinians. As long as this one idea is true, every other idea follows. Hamas is therefore not inherently evil (as the Nazis were). Their evil actions are caused by their righteousness. Hamas can only be destroyed after Israel has stopped oppressing Palestinians. Its not novel to point out that people think what they are doing is good. I don't doubt many of these Islamist dipshits think they have the right idea. But moral relativism has no value, and it doesn't mean anything for someone to think they are doing something good. They are doing bad things and there's no incentive to pat them on the head for being wrong about something. If you read what I said, you will see that Hamas's ideology was not born out of oppression because it predates Israel. They have been fighting against this and that for a long time. Israel is just the big rallying cry for them right now. Pan-Islamist ideology being appealing to enemies of Israel does not mean the ideology was born from Israel. The ideology that currently dominates Hamas existed before Israel. Israel is something their ideology totally hates, but it would exist with or without Israel. We know this because it existed before Israel. Maybe its worth just pausing at this point and asking if this makes sense and if you agree. Do you think pan-islamist ideology existed before Israel? Do you think the founding members of Hamas and the movements that came before Hamas held pan-islamist views prior to the formation of Israel? Edit: Are you familiar with the history of Arab Nationalism's conflict with pan-Islamist ideology both before and after the fall of the Ottoman empire?
I'm not patting anyone on the head. Certainly not Hamas. Or if I did, I'm sure you can quote me on it. Meanwhile I can quote the many times I condemned Hamas.
Would Hamas exist without Israel? What does that mean? I don't quite understand. It would mean that the only possible oppression of Palestinians would be internal. Their own leaders. We can discuss that, but it has nothing to do with the Israel-Gaza conflict. Assuming we conclude that Hamas would be oppressing Palestinians, that wouldn't change anything about the fact that one oppressor (Israel) would be out of the way. This is indisputable.
Israel isn't "saving Palestinians from the oppression of Hamas". That's not what's happening. Israel is oppressing Palestinians, and if or when Hamas is out of the picture, that oppression will continue. It won't end with Hamas. If Hamas can even be ended to begin with.
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On December 29 2023 07:07 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 06:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:48 RenSC2 wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. Ah, so if a large number of people agree that slavery is good and the natural order of things (or ordained by God), then it’s not oppression. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess there is no objective reality. What, are your surprised? Slavery used to be considered a norm across the globe. Yes indeed, during those days it was not considered extremist to hold slaves. Guess what, it was also not considered extremist that women should be second class citizens. Or that little children should work in coal mines. Good thing we didn't live during those days with our current views, because people would've hunted us out of town. Oh, yes, it was once quite normal. However, it was always oppression even if it was widely supported. What Hamas wants to implement is also oppression whether a bunch of people in the Muslim world agree with it or not. What Hamas and various other of Israel's neighbors are doing is also oppression. Israel is being forced to live like in a fortress. The attacks haven't stopped since 1948. When the Israelis let their guard down at all, over a thousand people get slaughtered. They're forced to spend huge sums of money on military equipment, soldiers, and walls just to keep themselves safe. All of that money could be spent on improving the lives of their citizens if their neighbors weren't oppressing them. When the Israeli government fails to protect their citizens, they get accused of letting it happen rather than blaming the aggressor for being aggressive. Everything they're doing now in Gaza is a response to the oppression they have faced. They're finally willing to stop being so peaceful and instead take the fight back to those who oppress them and have oppressed them since their founding (including various precursor groups to Hamas).
Maybe if Israel stopped oppressing Palestinians, they wouldn't have to worry as much as they do about getting attacked.
I have yet to see a convincing argument showing that there's no connection between Israel's oppression of Palestinians and the terrorist groups attacking Israel.
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On December 29 2023 07:42 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 07:08 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:37 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. Israel is not being oppressed by Hamas, but Hamas oppresses their constituents. But even if we ignore the whole oppression component of Hamas, the fact that their goals are very clearly stated as extending beyond Israel means it isn't sufficient or even honest to frame the situation as Hamas being entirely internal to the Israel-Palestine conflict.Mahmoud al-Zahar is the co-founder of Hamas, so I think his perspective on the goals of Hamas are relevant here.
"The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
Hamas as a movement has evolved a lot over the course of its existence, and has borrowed from this and that over the course of its evolution. Changes in leadership and developing global political situations have led to certain voices being stronger or weaker over time. The root of the current form of Hamas can be traced back to the Ottoman empire. Pan-Islamism has of course been around for a very long time, but the current context of pan-Islamism became louder towards the end of the Ottoman empire and then became 1 of 2 dominant perspectives after the fall of the Ottoman empire. In the early years after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arab nationalism dominated and suppressed pan-islamism and islamists were oppressed and tortured and whatnot to prevent them from gaining too much power and overthrowing Arab nationalists. Pan-Islamism was mostly dead in the dirt in the 1950s, largely because Nasser was remarkably successful as the leader of Egypt and had a couple really clutch military wins against the west during his rule. But when he got cocky and overextended, he basically went all-in and lost everything during the 6 day war. After the 6 day war, Arab nationalism was on life support and pan-islamism became dominant again. But its important to keep in mind pan-islamism, despite being a major component of the current form of Hamas, was not some kind of reaction to Israel. Pan-Islamism has been around for a very long time. Pan-Islamism has been the enemy of Arab nationalism, then the enemy of colonialism, then the enemy of the west as a whole, and so on and so forth. Its not that pan-Islamism wouldn't exist without Israel. Israel is just the best rallying cry for Islamists at the moment. The quote I included above from one of Hamas's founders does not make sense if we assume Hamas's ideology is just some kinda "freedom fighter" movement against Israel. But it makes complete sense when you contextualize it within the history of Arab nationalism, pan-islamism, and the general idea of a caliphate. I just wanted to take the time to elaborate on why I have said Hamas isn't some kind of Israel-exclusive movement and that Israel not existing would have prevented the whole thing. It is an extension of pan-Islamism, and we have a wealth of information and history to show us where Hamas leadership got their ideas, and the history of those ideas. Events in history can give a movement and ideology a lot of extra power, but we have seen highs and lows in both Arab nationalism and pan-Islamism throughout history. We can't pretend this whole problem goes away in some fictitious situation where Israel never existed to begin with. We even have their own words, shown above, that clearly indicate what the goals of pan-Islamism are. Apparently this keeps going over people's heads. I'm not arguing that Hamas' conquest would, if successful, remain restricted to Israel or Palestine. I didn't say that anywhere. What I'm saying is that Hamas can reasonably argue that they're fighting against oppressors. This point is indisputable, because Israel is in fact an oppressor of Palestinians. Whether we like it or not, this gives credibility to Hamas' call to violence of Palestinians against the Israeli population. Since Palestinians are in fact oppressed by Israel, therefore Hamas cannot be strictly labeled a pure evil. Instead they're an evil born out of oppression. You may not like to hear this, but it's true. Hamas is fueled by righteousness, not by bloodlust. Their bloodlust follows from their righteousness. Whatever other calls for violence Hamas sends out to Palestinians - against people outside of Israel and against non-Jews - are simply a result of the existing extremist views against Israel. Everything follows. The US supports Israel. The UN is powerless to stop the US. European nations are not sanctioning the US for supporting Israel, and instead engaged in open trade. And so forth. The whole train of thought goes from "destroy Israel" to "destroy every supporter of Israel", because the root of Hamas' righteousness is true: Israel oppresses the Palestinians. As long as this one idea is true, every other idea follows. Hamas is therefore not inherently evil (as the Nazis were). Their evil actions are caused by their righteousness. Hamas can only be destroyed after Israel has stopped oppressing Palestinians. Its not novel to point out that people think what they are doing is good. I don't doubt many of these Islamist dipshits think they have the right idea. But moral relativism has no value, and it doesn't mean anything for someone to think they are doing something good. They are doing bad things and there's no incentive to pat them on the head for being wrong about something. If you read what I said, you will see that Hamas's ideology was not born out of oppression because it predates Israel. They have been fighting against this and that for a long time. Israel is just the big rallying cry for them right now. Pan-Islamist ideology being appealing to enemies of Israel does not mean the ideology was born from Israel. The ideology that currently dominates Hamas existed before Israel. Israel is something their ideology totally hates, but it would exist with or without Israel. We know this because it existed before Israel. Maybe its worth just pausing at this point and asking if this makes sense and if you agree. Do you think pan-islamist ideology existed before Israel? Do you think the founding members of Hamas and the movements that came before Hamas held pan-islamist views prior to the formation of Israel? Edit: Are you familiar with the history of Arab Nationalism's conflict with pan-Islamist ideology both before and after the fall of the Ottoman empire? I'm not patting anyone on the head. Certainly not Hamas. Or if I did, I'm sure you can quote me on it. Meanwhile I can quote the many times I condemned Hamas. Would Hamas exist without Israel? What does that mean? I don't quite understand. It would mean that the only possible oppression of Palestinians would be internal. Their own leaders. We can discuss that, but it has nothing to do with the Israel-Gaza conflict. Assuming we conclude that Hamas would be oppressing Palestinians, that wouldn't change anything about the fact that one oppressor (Israel) would be out of the way. This is indisputable. Israel isn't "saving Palestinians from the oppression of Hamas". That's not what's happening. Israel is oppressing Palestinians, and if or when Hamas is out of the picture, that oppression will continue. It won't end with Hamas. If Hamas can even be ended to begin with.
Let me contextualize this in another way:
Think about “moms for liberty”, which is a right wing group that focuses on legal topics pertaining to LGBTQ people. They focus a lot of their energy on fighting against trans rights and gay rights. But many of the people involved were not actually radicalized by trans people in particular. It’s their main purpose right now, but it’s not what got them into that ideology.
I’m not sure how old you are or what things are like in your country, but as a 35 year old American, I had plenty of friends growing up who had religious fundamentalist parents. Their parents took a hard line stance against dragon ball Z. Any kind of symbolism or topic involving dragons was deeply heretical to them. They advocated for banning DBZ at school and stuff like that. These same people did all the same stuff with Harry Potter because they considered magic to be an affront to god. And now same thing with trans people. It’s not that DBZ radicalized these folks. They held all these views long before even having kids.
This far right social movement is an example of how even if there is a current lightning rod topic that all of their followers focus on, and even if that is their main method of recruitment at a given time, the movement existed way before that and they had disagreements with many other topics before that.
Similarly, the founding of Hamas involved people who subscribed to pan-Islamist beliefs before Israel existed. And as the organization gained and lost leaders, the focus increasingly became Israel because anyone who held a pan-islamist world view would see Israel as the absolute highest level of evil according to pan-Islamism. Furthermore, Palestinians who hated Israel heard what pan islamists were saying and agreed with them. But taking a step back, just like the parents who hated DBZ, many of the leaders and older members hated other stuff before Israel existed. The people who taught them these beliefs taught other people too, and they moved other places and participated in pan Islamist movements unrelated to Israel.
Here is where I think you have misunderstood the situation: Hamas is not saying they will eliminate everyone else and establish a caliphate because they hate all those people for helping Israel. This isn’t a “I hate you and all your friends” movement. This is an existing movement that has voiced the same beliefs before Israel. Their leaders hated other stuff before Israel. The movement has other factions unrelated to Israel. Please read that quote from a few posts ago again. That line of thinking did not begin because people helped Israel. That line of thinking was present during the Ottoman Empire. Scholars from the Ottoman Empire went on to play major roles in Iran later in life. This topic is much larger than you are giving credit.
If Israel vanished tomorrow, Hamas would not hang up their bomb vests and decide to leave their life of violence behind. They wouldn’t look up at the sky and say “finally, evil has been vanquished, and I can live a happy life as a carpenter.”. There are tons of other things they will go on to be violent about. The Israel conflict is a means of recruitment and it is a topic highly relevant to pan Islamist ideology. But for the same reason Iran has other priorities besides Israel, pan Islamism does too. Israel can’t be labeled as the core motivation or birthing moment of Hamas.
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This Israel - Palestine conflict sure seems to be circular reasoning that has sprouted into reality, huh?
Palestine won't stop going at Israel because Israel exists and needs space and support its population but Israel won't stop because Palestinians don't want their land being enroached upon.
No one wants Israel in the region and no one want Palestinians either.
I don't believe for a second Israel has the intention literally wipe out all Palestinians. What does ethnic cleansing even mean? That's the same argument kooks from the right use when the I'slamic replacement is happening in Europe right now' and that's bad because rich culture and 'strong caucasian genes' and all that.
It's exactly this that prevents us from growing as a species. Slinging mud and pointing fingers and saying: 'no you go first, I'll totally follow your lead if you do'.
Man what am I rambling about, I'm a fucking pacifist who doesn't understand all the geopolitical grandstanding in the first place. I just want to sing kumbayah until the sun sets lol. Fuck all these stupid ass murdery ideologies.
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On December 29 2023 08:13 Uldridge wrote:
This Israel - Palestine conflict sure seems to be circular reasoning that has sprouted into reality, huh?
Palestine won't stop going at Israel because Israel exists and needs space and support its population but Israel won't stop because Palestinians don't want their land being enroached upon.
No one wants Israel in the region and no one want Palestinians either.
I don't believe for a second Israel has the intention literally wipe out all Palestinians. What does ethnic cleansing even mean? That's the same argument kooks from the right use when the Islamic replacement is happening in Europe because wipe out? no. Push out? certainly, its what they are doing with the settlements.
Sure its the same argument the far right uses in Europe, does that mean it can't actually be true?
The settlements are objectively and clear as day pushing out Palestinians and replacing them with Israelis. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'nananana' doesn't make that uncomfortable truth less real.
And displacement absolutely falls under the definition of ethnic cleansing.
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On December 29 2023 08:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 07:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 07:08 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:37 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. Israel is not being oppressed by Hamas, but Hamas oppresses their constituents. But even if we ignore the whole oppression component of Hamas, the fact that their goals are very clearly stated as extending beyond Israel means it isn't sufficient or even honest to frame the situation as Hamas being entirely internal to the Israel-Palestine conflict.Mahmoud al-Zahar is the co-founder of Hamas, so I think his perspective on the goals of Hamas are relevant here.
"The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
Hamas as a movement has evolved a lot over the course of its existence, and has borrowed from this and that over the course of its evolution. Changes in leadership and developing global political situations have led to certain voices being stronger or weaker over time. The root of the current form of Hamas can be traced back to the Ottoman empire. Pan-Islamism has of course been around for a very long time, but the current context of pan-Islamism became louder towards the end of the Ottoman empire and then became 1 of 2 dominant perspectives after the fall of the Ottoman empire. In the early years after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arab nationalism dominated and suppressed pan-islamism and islamists were oppressed and tortured and whatnot to prevent them from gaining too much power and overthrowing Arab nationalists. Pan-Islamism was mostly dead in the dirt in the 1950s, largely because Nasser was remarkably successful as the leader of Egypt and had a couple really clutch military wins against the west during his rule. But when he got cocky and overextended, he basically went all-in and lost everything during the 6 day war. After the 6 day war, Arab nationalism was on life support and pan-islamism became dominant again. But its important to keep in mind pan-islamism, despite being a major component of the current form of Hamas, was not some kind of reaction to Israel. Pan-Islamism has been around for a very long time. Pan-Islamism has been the enemy of Arab nationalism, then the enemy of colonialism, then the enemy of the west as a whole, and so on and so forth. Its not that pan-Islamism wouldn't exist without Israel. Israel is just the best rallying cry for Islamists at the moment. The quote I included above from one of Hamas's founders does not make sense if we assume Hamas's ideology is just some kinda "freedom fighter" movement against Israel. But it makes complete sense when you contextualize it within the history of Arab nationalism, pan-islamism, and the general idea of a caliphate. I just wanted to take the time to elaborate on why I have said Hamas isn't some kind of Israel-exclusive movement and that Israel not existing would have prevented the whole thing. It is an extension of pan-Islamism, and we have a wealth of information and history to show us where Hamas leadership got their ideas, and the history of those ideas. Events in history can give a movement and ideology a lot of extra power, but we have seen highs and lows in both Arab nationalism and pan-Islamism throughout history. We can't pretend this whole problem goes away in some fictitious situation where Israel never existed to begin with. We even have their own words, shown above, that clearly indicate what the goals of pan-Islamism are. Apparently this keeps going over people's heads. I'm not arguing that Hamas' conquest would, if successful, remain restricted to Israel or Palestine. I didn't say that anywhere. What I'm saying is that Hamas can reasonably argue that they're fighting against oppressors. This point is indisputable, because Israel is in fact an oppressor of Palestinians. Whether we like it or not, this gives credibility to Hamas' call to violence of Palestinians against the Israeli population. Since Palestinians are in fact oppressed by Israel, therefore Hamas cannot be strictly labeled a pure evil. Instead they're an evil born out of oppression. You may not like to hear this, but it's true. Hamas is fueled by righteousness, not by bloodlust. Their bloodlust follows from their righteousness. Whatever other calls for violence Hamas sends out to Palestinians - against people outside of Israel and against non-Jews - are simply a result of the existing extremist views against Israel. Everything follows. The US supports Israel. The UN is powerless to stop the US. European nations are not sanctioning the US for supporting Israel, and instead engaged in open trade. And so forth. The whole train of thought goes from "destroy Israel" to "destroy every supporter of Israel", because the root of Hamas' righteousness is true: Israel oppresses the Palestinians. As long as this one idea is true, every other idea follows. Hamas is therefore not inherently evil (as the Nazis were). Their evil actions are caused by their righteousness. Hamas can only be destroyed after Israel has stopped oppressing Palestinians. Its not novel to point out that people think what they are doing is good. I don't doubt many of these Islamist dipshits think they have the right idea. But moral relativism has no value, and it doesn't mean anything for someone to think they are doing something good. They are doing bad things and there's no incentive to pat them on the head for being wrong about something. If you read what I said, you will see that Hamas's ideology was not born out of oppression because it predates Israel. They have been fighting against this and that for a long time. Israel is just the big rallying cry for them right now. Pan-Islamist ideology being appealing to enemies of Israel does not mean the ideology was born from Israel. The ideology that currently dominates Hamas existed before Israel. Israel is something their ideology totally hates, but it would exist with or without Israel. We know this because it existed before Israel. Maybe its worth just pausing at this point and asking if this makes sense and if you agree. Do you think pan-islamist ideology existed before Israel? Do you think the founding members of Hamas and the movements that came before Hamas held pan-islamist views prior to the formation of Israel? Edit: Are you familiar with the history of Arab Nationalism's conflict with pan-Islamist ideology both before and after the fall of the Ottoman empire? I'm not patting anyone on the head. Certainly not Hamas. Or if I did, I'm sure you can quote me on it. Meanwhile I can quote the many times I condemned Hamas. Would Hamas exist without Israel? What does that mean? I don't quite understand. It would mean that the only possible oppression of Palestinians would be internal. Their own leaders. We can discuss that, but it has nothing to do with the Israel-Gaza conflict. Assuming we conclude that Hamas would be oppressing Palestinians, that wouldn't change anything about the fact that one oppressor (Israel) would be out of the way. This is indisputable. Israel isn't "saving Palestinians from the oppression of Hamas". That's not what's happening. Israel is oppressing Palestinians, and if or when Hamas is out of the picture, that oppression will continue. It won't end with Hamas. If Hamas can even be ended to begin with. Let me contextualize this in another way: Think about “moms for liberty”, which is a right wing group that focuses on legal topics pertaining to LGBTQ people. They focus a lot of their energy on fighting against trans rights and gay rights. But many of the people involved were not actually radicalized by trans people in particular. It’s their main purpose right now, but it’s not what got them into that ideology. I’m not sure how old you are or what things are like in your country, but as a 35 year old American, I had plenty of friends growing up who had religious fundamentalist parents. Their parents took a hard line stance against dragon ball Z. Any kind of symbolism or topic involving dragons was deeply heretical to them. They advocated for banning DBZ at school and stuff like that. These same people did all the same stuff with Harry Potter because they considered magic to be an affront to god. And now same thing with trans people. It’s not that DBZ radicalized these folks. They held all these views long before even having kids. This far right social movement is an example of how even if there is a current lightning rod topic that all of their followers focus on, and even if that is their main method of recruitment at a given time, the movement existed way before that and they had disagreements with many other topics before that. Similarly, the founding of Hamas involved people who subscribed to pan-Islamist beliefs before Israel existed. And as the organization gained and lost leaders, the focus increasingly became Israel because anyone who held a pan-islamist world view would see Israel as the absolute highest level of evil according to pan-Islamism. Furthermore, Palestinians who hated Israel heard what pan islamists were saying and agreed with them. But taking a step back, just like the parents who hated DBZ, many of the leaders and older members hated other stuff before Israel existed. The people who taught them these beliefs taught other people too, and they moved other places and participated in pan Islamist movements unrelated to Israel. Here is where I think you have misunderstood the situation: Hamas is not saying they will eliminate everyone else and establish a caliphate because they hate all those people for helping Israel. This isn’t a “I hate you and all your friends” movement. This is an existing movement that has voiced the same beliefs before Israel. Their leaders hated other stuff before Israel. The movement has other factions unrelated to Israel. Please read that quote from a few posts ago again. That line of thinking did not begin because people helped Israel. That line of thinking was present during the Ottoman Empire. Scholars from the Ottoman Empire went on to play major roles in Iran later in life. This topic is much larger than you are giving credit. If Israel vanished tomorrow, Hamas would not hang up their bomb vests and decide to leave their life of violence behind. They wouldn’t look up at the sky and say “finally, evil has been vanquished, and I can live a happy life as a carpenter.”. There are tons of other things they will go on to be violent about. The Israel conflict is a means of recruitment and it is a topic highly relevant to pan Islamist ideology. But for the same reason Iran has other priorities besides Israel, pan Islamism does too. Israel can’t be labeled as the core motivation or birthing moment of Hamas.
Firstly, Hamas is caused by oppression. The Palestinians don't want to be oppressed. This is why there was support for Hamas to begin with.
Secondly, Hamas can beat their chests about world domination all they want, it won't happen. They weren't even able to defeat Israel, and they will never be able to. They certainly won't get anywhere beyond that. Absolutely they won't.
Thirdly, if the oppression of Palestinians ends, then Hamas naturally weakens externally. This is because most people don't want to go to war with other countries that aren't visibly oppressing them. Hamas will not be able to project aggression outwards into Western nations. The Palestinian people will have what they want, Hamas will have what they want, and then the Palestinians will have to figure out how to deal with a potential oppression by Hamas - if they even want to deal with them at all. Similar end result (although different path) as Afghanistan with the Taliban.
Fourthly, if Hamas are somehow able to project outwards aggression after the oppression by Israel ends (in an alternate universe), that would change nothing about the fact that the oppressor of Palestinians is, first and foremost, Israel. Hamas is secondary.
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Northern Ireland24328 Posts
On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:15 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
You are not casting the net wide enough. They believe everyone who does not believe their version of their religion should die. Not just Jews or even just Israelis.
I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force.
No it doesn’t but you seem to be happy to conflate the two also when it suits your argument. As if you can’t both genuinely fight for freedom, while also intending to use that future freedom for other purposes that don’t align thus. Those two things can both coexist and be assessed independently
Or alternatively, even if it’s shit by various standards Hamas are broadly exercising the will of their constituent population in some manner.
Is it a good thing? No, but you seem to be unable to countenance that motivations outside your personal wheelhouse might be genuinely held positions.
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On December 29 2023 08:20 Gorsameth wrote:
...
Does that mean the far right's argument can also be true? No because they're lunatics, right? I'm kind of poking the bear because I pretty much know it's a false equivalency but this bullshit divise hyper defined snowflake rhetoric needs to stop if humans ever want to find common ground on anything ever again. I don't know if you've noticed, but we're running in circles over and over again. What happens if Trump wins 2024? THAT surely won't happen, because logical reasoning, right?
Okay, siderant aside.
If Israelis need to be sent elsewhere to live on the planet because they don't have space to live where they do now, are they doing auto-ethnic cleansing? Are all the settlements happening through acts of war and atrocities? I'm not saying that if only some are done via atrocities and some aren't that that makes it ok, but where do you draw the line?
Seems like a lot of virtue signaling going on to be honest. Just call it displacement. It's bad enough that it happens already (except when people make the choice to accept a price for their land), you don't need to tag the ethnic cleansing onto it just because.
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On December 29 2023 08:34 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:25 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I don't see how that makes a difference to the point. Hamas are only evil from our perspective, not from their own. And as long as Israel is oppressing Palestinians, they have that one very valid point which they can keep using to feed their views and garner support. The fact that Hamas are supremacists beyond just the Palestine region and beyond just the Jewish people changes very little about these points. Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own. Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. No it doesn’t but you seem to be happy to conflate the two also when it suits your argument. As if you can’t both genuinely fight for freedom, while also intending to use that future freedom for other purposes that don’t align thus. Those two things can both coexist and be assessed independently Or alternatively, even if it’s shit by various standards Hamas are broadly exercising the will of their constituent population in some manner. Is it a good thing? No, but you seem to be unable to countenance that motivations outside your personal wheelhouse might be genuinely held positions.
I'm slightly confused. Did you in fact intend to respond to me?
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On December 29 2023 08:35 Uldridge wrote:Does that mean the far right's argument can also be true? No because they're lunatics, right? I'm kind of poking the bear because I pretty much know it's a false equivalency but this bullshit divise hyper defined snowflake rhetoric needs to stop if humans ever want to find common ground on anything ever again. I don't know if you've noticed, but we're running in circles over and over again. What happens if Trump wins 2024? THAT surely won't happen, because logical reasoning, right? Okay, siderant aside. If Israelis need to be sent elsewhere to live on the planet because they don't have space to live where they do now, are they doing auto-ethnic cleansing? Are all the settlements happening through acts of war and atrocities? I'm not saying that if only some are done via atrocities and some aren't that that makes it ok, but where do you draw the line? Seems like a lot of virtue signaling going on to be honest. Just call it displacement. It's bad enough that it happens already (except when people make the choice to accept a price for their land), you don't need to tag the ethnic cleansing onto it just because. Could the far right be true? sure it could be. Its not because "foreigners" aren't going around chasing natives out of their house so they can life there instead, unlike what is happening on the West Bank.
going to live somewhere else is not ethnic cleansing or displacing, forcefully driving away people so you can then live on their land, now that can be. If the settlements were actually on unused and free land then it would be pretty fine. But that is not what is happening.
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Yes, people living sonewhere their entire lives, are being displaced on a daily basis by their own government. It's done all around the world. It's not okay, but it's something that does happen. So stop putting the magnifying glass on just Palestinians because it's a hot topic at this moment. Stop trying to comes into the Good Lord's graces, take a step back, and look around. You're not actually contributing anything by pointing it out it's happening and branding it as the cool new buzzword of the day.
Let me, again though, repeat that I don't condone people forcing out other people from where they live. Forcing them to hastily uproot and go somewhere unknown to them. It's disgusting. But that's it. You're not going to get that to stop before the issue of Israel-Palestine is stopped and whining about it and hyperdefining it to be ethnic cleansing sure doesn't help one iota.
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On December 29 2023 08:56 Uldridge wrote:
Yes, people living sonewhere their entire lives, are being displaced on a daily basis by their own government. It's done all around the world. It's not okay, but it's something that does happen. So stop putting the magnifying glass on just Palestinians because it's a hot topic at this moment. Stop trying to comes into the Good Lord's graces, take a step back, and look around. You're not actually contributing anything by pointing it out it's happening and branding it as the cool new buzzword of the day.
Let me, again though, repeat that I don't condone people forcing out other people from where they live. Forcing them to hastily uproot and go somewhere unknown to them. It's disgusting. But that's it. You're not going to get that to stop before the issue of Israel-Palestine is stopped and whining about it and hyperdefining it to be ethnic cleansing sure doesn't help one iota. Its not going to stop until the Israel-Palestine conflict is resolved and the conflict isn't going to be resolved while the settlements are ongoing.
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So what is your solution to the problem?
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On December 29 2023 09:05 Uldridge wrote:
So what is your solution to the problem? Stop the settlements, stop oppressing Palestinians, invest into giving them an actual life with a future rather then no future to attack Hamas's recruitment grounds. Precision target Hamas to stop attacks without killing tons of civilians and then wait decades for future generations to grow up with less and less reason to hate Israel.
You can't just 'solve' a conflict like this.
And why do I talk about Israel needing to act rather then Palestine? Because Israel holds all the power. Sure Hamas, and others, threaten Israel's continued existence but the notion that they could actually make good on their desire to destroy Israel is ludicrous. Not while they are so much stronger and backed fully by the US and much of the West.
If Palestine stops resisting they cease to exist, if Israel stops being aggressive life just goes on.
(note, this is not an endorsement of Hamas's tactics, they are to be denounced absolutely)
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So your suggestion is, to force the Israelis to adopt an integration strategy, which they themselves don't really want - at least not now - and then to wait a few decades?
All the while, do the heavy lifting of dismantling Hamas, without too many civilians getting killed in the process (where is the ehtical line here?). Remember that Israelis and Palestinians need to work together on this, because they need to completely denounce Hamas. Will that happen? With so many young minds to be influenced by their indoctrination tactics? By the way, aren't Israel (and Egypt) already trying to do something about the Hamas situation?
I also don't think 'life just goes on" the second Israel stop fighting. Rockets are fired at Israel, like every other day. Fun life to be an Israeli I guess?
I don't think your idea is viable. I think Palestine needs to get rid of Hamas first, or at the very least have some sort of communal conviction where they denounce them. Either with the help of Israel, or any other nation willing to offer aid here. This would be a huge symbolic step towards something more long lasting. That shows that Palestinians want something instead of retribution for the occupation that Israel is stubbornly upholding.
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On December 29 2023 09:36 Uldridge wrote:
So your suggestion is, to force the Israelis to adopt an integration strategy, which they themselves don't really want - at least not now - and then to wait a few decades?
All the while, do the heavy lifting of dismantling Hamas, without too many civilians getting killed in the process (where is the ehtical line here?). Remember that Israelis and Palestinians need to work together on this, because they need to completely denounce Hamas. Will that happen? With so many young minds to be influenced by their indoctrination tactics? By the way, aren't Israel (and Egypt) already trying to do something about the Hamas situation?
I also don't think 'life just goes on" the second Israel stop fighting. Rockets are fired at Israel, like every other day. Fun life to be an Israeli I guess?
I don't think your idea is viable. I think Palestine needs to get rid of Hamas first, or at the very least have some sort of communal conviction where they denounce them. Either with the help of Israel, or any other nation willing to offer aid here. This would be a huge symbolic step towards something more long lasting. That shows that Palestinians want something instead of retribution for the occupation that Israel is stubbornly upholding.
This is wishful thinking. The cycle of violence makes it impossible for Hamas to be evicted by Palestinians. Israel's aggression has always strengthened Hamas rather than weakened it, and there are no signs that this war would change the winds, but much rather it risks fueling the fire even more.
If history teaches us a lesson, then it's that greater aggression leads to greater counter-aggression. This is exactly what Hamas wants, because it helps them grow. Other even more radical groups than Hamas may also benefit from Israel's aggression.
https://time.com/6324221/hamas-origins-history/
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On December 29 2023 08:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 07:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 07:08 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:37 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. Israel is not being oppressed by Hamas, but Hamas oppresses their constituents. But even if we ignore the whole oppression component of Hamas, the fact that their goals are very clearly stated as extending beyond Israel means it isn't sufficient or even honest to frame the situation as Hamas being entirely internal to the Israel-Palestine conflict.Mahmoud al-Zahar is the co-founder of Hamas, so I think his perspective on the goals of Hamas are relevant here.
"The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
Hamas as a movement has evolved a lot over the course of its existence, and has borrowed from this and that over the course of its evolution. Changes in leadership and developing global political situations have led to certain voices being stronger or weaker over time. The root of the current form of Hamas can be traced back to the Ottoman empire. Pan-Islamism has of course been around for a very long time, but the current context of pan-Islamism became louder towards the end of the Ottoman empire and then became 1 of 2 dominant perspectives after the fall of the Ottoman empire. In the early years after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arab nationalism dominated and suppressed pan-islamism and islamists were oppressed and tortured and whatnot to prevent them from gaining too much power and overthrowing Arab nationalists. Pan-Islamism was mostly dead in the dirt in the 1950s, largely because Nasser was remarkably successful as the leader of Egypt and had a couple really clutch military wins against the west during his rule. But when he got cocky and overextended, he basically went all-in and lost everything during the 6 day war. After the 6 day war, Arab nationalism was on life support and pan-islamism became dominant again. But its important to keep in mind pan-islamism, despite being a major component of the current form of Hamas, was not some kind of reaction to Israel. Pan-Islamism has been around for a very long time. Pan-Islamism has been the enemy of Arab nationalism, then the enemy of colonialism, then the enemy of the west as a whole, and so on and so forth. Its not that pan-Islamism wouldn't exist without Israel. Israel is just the best rallying cry for Islamists at the moment. The quote I included above from one of Hamas's founders does not make sense if we assume Hamas's ideology is just some kinda "freedom fighter" movement against Israel. But it makes complete sense when you contextualize it within the history of Arab nationalism, pan-islamism, and the general idea of a caliphate. I just wanted to take the time to elaborate on why I have said Hamas isn't some kind of Israel-exclusive movement and that Israel not existing would have prevented the whole thing. It is an extension of pan-Islamism, and we have a wealth of information and history to show us where Hamas leadership got their ideas, and the history of those ideas. Events in history can give a movement and ideology a lot of extra power, but we have seen highs and lows in both Arab nationalism and pan-Islamism throughout history. We can't pretend this whole problem goes away in some fictitious situation where Israel never existed to begin with. We even have their own words, shown above, that clearly indicate what the goals of pan-Islamism are. Apparently this keeps going over people's heads. I'm not arguing that Hamas' conquest would, if successful, remain restricted to Israel or Palestine. I didn't say that anywhere. What I'm saying is that Hamas can reasonably argue that they're fighting against oppressors. This point is indisputable, because Israel is in fact an oppressor of Palestinians. Whether we like it or not, this gives credibility to Hamas' call to violence of Palestinians against the Israeli population. Since Palestinians are in fact oppressed by Israel, therefore Hamas cannot be strictly labeled a pure evil. Instead they're an evil born out of oppression. You may not like to hear this, but it's true. Hamas is fueled by righteousness, not by bloodlust. Their bloodlust follows from their righteousness. Whatever other calls for violence Hamas sends out to Palestinians - against people outside of Israel and against non-Jews - are simply a result of the existing extremist views against Israel. Everything follows. The US supports Israel. The UN is powerless to stop the US. European nations are not sanctioning the US for supporting Israel, and instead engaged in open trade. And so forth. The whole train of thought goes from "destroy Israel" to "destroy every supporter of Israel", because the root of Hamas' righteousness is true: Israel oppresses the Palestinians. As long as this one idea is true, every other idea follows. Hamas is therefore not inherently evil (as the Nazis were). Their evil actions are caused by their righteousness. Hamas can only be destroyed after Israel has stopped oppressing Palestinians. Its not novel to point out that people think what they are doing is good. I don't doubt many of these Islamist dipshits think they have the right idea. But moral relativism has no value, and it doesn't mean anything for someone to think they are doing something good. They are doing bad things and there's no incentive to pat them on the head for being wrong about something. If you read what I said, you will see that Hamas's ideology was not born out of oppression because it predates Israel. They have been fighting against this and that for a long time. Israel is just the big rallying cry for them right now. Pan-Islamist ideology being appealing to enemies of Israel does not mean the ideology was born from Israel. The ideology that currently dominates Hamas existed before Israel. Israel is something their ideology totally hates, but it would exist with or without Israel. We know this because it existed before Israel. Maybe its worth just pausing at this point and asking if this makes sense and if you agree. Do you think pan-islamist ideology existed before Israel? Do you think the founding members of Hamas and the movements that came before Hamas held pan-islamist views prior to the formation of Israel? Edit: Are you familiar with the history of Arab Nationalism's conflict with pan-Islamist ideology both before and after the fall of the Ottoman empire? I'm not patting anyone on the head. Certainly not Hamas. Or if I did, I'm sure you can quote me on it. Meanwhile I can quote the many times I condemned Hamas. Would Hamas exist without Israel? What does that mean? I don't quite understand. It would mean that the only possible oppression of Palestinians would be internal. Their own leaders. We can discuss that, but it has nothing to do with the Israel-Gaza conflict. Assuming we conclude that Hamas would be oppressing Palestinians, that wouldn't change anything about the fact that one oppressor (Israel) would be out of the way. This is indisputable. Israel isn't "saving Palestinians from the oppression of Hamas". That's not what's happening. Israel is oppressing Palestinians, and if or when Hamas is out of the picture, that oppression will continue. It won't end with Hamas. If Hamas can even be ended to begin with. Let me contextualize this in another way: Think about “moms for liberty”, which is a right wing group that focuses on legal topics pertaining to LGBTQ people. They focus a lot of their energy on fighting against trans rights and gay rights. But many of the people involved were not actually radicalized by trans people in particular. It’s their main purpose right now, but it’s not what got them into that ideology. I’m not sure how old you are or what things are like in your country, but as a 35 year old American, I had plenty of friends growing up who had religious fundamentalist parents. Their parents took a hard line stance against dragon ball Z. Any kind of symbolism or topic involving dragons was deeply heretical to them. They advocated for banning DBZ at school and stuff like that. These same people did all the same stuff with Harry Potter because they considered magic to be an affront to god. And now same thing with trans people. It’s not that DBZ radicalized these folks. They held all these views long before even having kids. This far right social movement is an example of how even if there is a current lightning rod topic that all of their followers focus on, and even if that is their main method of recruitment at a given time, the movement existed way before that and they had disagreements with many other topics before that. Similarly, the founding of Hamas involved people who subscribed to pan-Islamist beliefs before Israel existed. And as the organization gained and lost leaders, the focus increasingly became Israel because anyone who held a pan-islamist world view would see Israel as the absolute highest level of evil according to pan-Islamism. Furthermore, Palestinians who hated Israel heard what pan islamists were saying and agreed with them. But taking a step back, just like the parents who hated DBZ, many of the leaders and older members hated other stuff before Israel existed. The people who taught them these beliefs taught other people too, and they moved other places and participated in pan Islamist movements unrelated to Israel. Here is where I think you have misunderstood the situation: Hamas is not saying they will eliminate everyone else and establish a caliphate because they hate all those people for helping Israel. This isn’t a “I hate you and all your friends” movement. This is an existing movement that has voiced the same beliefs before Israel. Their leaders hated other stuff before Israel. The movement has other factions unrelated to Israel. Please read that quote from a few posts ago again. That line of thinking did not begin because people helped Israel. That line of thinking was present during the Ottoman Empire. Scholars from the Ottoman Empire went on to play major roles in Iran later in life. This topic is much larger than you are giving credit. If Israel vanished tomorrow, Hamas would not hang up their bomb vests and decide to leave their life of violence behind. They wouldn’t look up at the sky and say “finally, evil has been vanquished, and I can live a happy life as a carpenter.”. There are tons of other things they will go on to be violent about. The Israel conflict is a means of recruitment and it is a topic highly relevant to pan Islamist ideology. But for the same reason Iran has other priorities besides Israel, pan Islamism does too. Israel can’t be labeled as the core motivation or birthing moment of Hamas.
Moms for liberty campaign to ban Dragonball Z in schools rather than blow the said churches up with suicide vests. Not because fundamentalist Christians in the USA are somehow of a superior moral fiber, but because fundamentalist Christians can see a future for their children, something that fundamentalist Muslims in Gaza do not.
Pan-Islamist movements from the Ottoman empire or whatever coexisted relatively peacefully with Jews. Jews were treated better by the Ottoman empire than by most Christian nations at that time. Anti-semitism existed, but on a relatively smaller scale than elsewhere in the world, even though the Zionist movements were probably the most popular in Ottoman empire due to proximity to Jerusalem etc.
There was no significant discrimination against Jews in Iran either, not before establishment of the state of Israel, nor for a few decades after. It's estimated that less than 10% of Iranian Jews migrated to Israel in the two decades that followed the creation of Israel. Things only changed for worse after the 1979 revolution.
As for Israel not being the core motivation or birthing moment of Hamas... I mean, yes it was? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2307/2538077
For a person who is supposedly operating on facts and doesn't take sides, you're making up a lot of nonsense to support your position here.
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On December 29 2023 09:36 Uldridge wrote:
So your suggestion is, to force the Israelis to adopt an integration strategy, which they themselves don't really want - at least not now - and then to wait a few decades?
All the while, do the heavy lifting of dismantling Hamas, without too many civilians getting killed in the process (where is the ehtical line here?). Remember that Israelis and Palestinians need to work together on this, because they need to completely denounce Hamas. Will that happen? With so many young minds to be influenced by their indoctrination tactics? By the way, aren't Israel (and Egypt) already trying to do something about the Hamas situation?
I also don't think 'life just goes on" the second Israel stop fighting. Rockets are fired at Israel, like every other day. Fun life to be an Israeli I guess?
I don't think your idea is viable. I think Palestine needs to get rid of Hamas first, or at the very least have some sort of communal conviction where they denounce them. Either with the help of Israel, or any other nation willing to offer aid here. This would be a huge symbolic step towards something more long lasting. That shows that Palestinians want something instead of retribution for the occupation that Israel is stubbornly upholding.
You're asking those suffering a humanitarian crisis to do their oppressors a favor under the promise that *maybe* things will get better.
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EPT
