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On December 29 2023 08:35 Uldridge wrote:Does that mean the far right's argument can also be true? No because they're lunatics, right? I'm kind of poking the bear because I pretty much know it's a false equivalency but this bullshit divise hyper defined snowflake rhetoric needs to stop if humans ever want to find common ground on anything ever again. I don't know if you've noticed, but we're running in circles over and over again. What happens if Trump wins 2024? THAT surely won't happen, because logical reasoning, right? Okay, siderant aside. If Israelis need to be sent elsewhere to live on the planet because they don't have space to live where they do now, are they doing auto-ethnic cleansing? Are all the settlements happening through acts of war and atrocities? I'm not saying that if only some are done via atrocities and some aren't that that makes it ok, but where do you draw the line? Seems like a lot of virtue signaling going on to be honest. Just call it displacement. It's bad enough that it happens already (except when people make the choice to accept a price for their land), you don't need to tag the ethnic cleansing onto it just because.
Literally not understanding what your objection is based on, just vibes apparently?
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Northern Ireland24328 Posts
On December 29 2023 08:36 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 08:34 WombaT wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 00:36 JimmiC wrote:
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Nazi's are only evil from our perspective, not their own.
Either you are making a grass is green point or no point at all. Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. No it doesn’t but you seem to be happy to conflate the two also when it suits your argument. As if you can’t both genuinely fight for freedom, while also intending to use that future freedom for other purposes that don’t align thus. Those two things can both coexist and be assessed independently Or alternatively, even if it’s shit by various standards Hamas are broadly exercising the will of their constituent population in some manner. Is it a good thing? No, but you seem to be unable to countenance that motivations outside your personal wheelhouse might be genuinely held positions. I'm slightly confused. Did you in fact intend to respond to me?
My mistake I thought I was responding to Jimmy of the C variety
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Literally nobody here thinks that Hamas isn't evil.
The point is, Hamas being evil should not be a valid excuse for Israel to likewise be evil. The reason Hamas is able to find so much support is, first and foremost, Israel's evil actions in Palestine. There are plenty of other Muslim nations that manage to exist just fine without turning to radical terrorism en masse. So clearly, being Muslim isn't the problem.
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On December 29 2023 10:45 Nebuchad wrote:
Literally not understanding what your objection is based on, just vibes apparently?
My objection is me looking at a thread where for the n-th iteration the same exact arguments are being uses. If you want to keep hammering the same point home, thinking jt'll change this time for sure, be my guest. I'd like to actually see some common ground be found and build a foundation from there instead of theses flying around on why the other guy is the bad guy.
On December 29 2023 13:50 Salazarz wrote:
Literally nobody here thinks that Hamas isn't evil.
The point is, Hamas being evil should not be a valid excuse for Israel to likewise be evil. The reason Hamas is able to find so much support is, first and foremost, Israel's evil actions in Palestine. There are plenty of other Muslim nations that manage to exist just fine without turning to radical terrorism en masse. So clearly, being Muslim isn't the problem.
Sure, but if Hamas suddendly just went away, not all Palestinians would just suddenly stop fighting or be angry or whatever. Hamas is, partly, a Palestinian creation. They go hand in hand to a certain extent. I don't know how deep that goes, but you don't just solve the entire problem by getting rid of them. You need a meaningful chamge in demeanor on a community level.
Are there stats on what Palestinians think of Hamas or their approval rating or whatever? And how many people Palestinians actually bare bone hate Israel?
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On December 29 2023 16:17 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 10:45 Nebuchad wrote:
Literally not understanding what your objection is based on, just vibes apparently? My objection is me looking at a thread where for the n-th iteration the same exact arguments are being uses. If you want to keep hammering the same point home, thinking jt'll change this time for sure, be my guest. I'd like to actually see some common ground be found and build a foundation from there instead of theses flying around on why the other guy is the bad guy.
I reckon the reason why arguments keep being the same is because there are people who value the world that they have created in their head a little more than they value the real world. A lot of the things we have arguments about are fact, not opinion. There is value to finding common ground when people have different opinions but I'll never be ready to find common ground with different realities.
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Sure, but if Hamas suddendly just went away, not all Palestinians would just suddenly stop fighting or be angry or whatever.
This is exactly what we are all saying? If Hamas suddenly just went away, Palestinians would still be angry and continue fighting, since the reason they hate Israel isn't that Hamas is telling them to, it's because they have legitimate grievances with Israel and they see no other way to settle them other than through violence.
Which is precisely why killing a whole lot of civilians to 'get rid of Hamas' is an exercise in folly, because even if you do succeed in getting rid of Hamas, you're not addressing the underlying reasons for Palestinians' hate of Israel, and a new Hamas is almost certain to arise.
Hamas is, partly, a Palestinian creation. They go hand in hand to a certain extent. I don't know how deep that goes, but you don't just solve the entire problem by getting rid of them. You need a meaningful chamge in demeanor on a community level.
Of course it is a Palestinian creation -- it's made of Palestinian people and its primary purpose is to drive Israel out of the land Palestinians consider theirs. If you were paying attention, you'd notice that in recent times Hamas has claimed that they aren't pursuing total destruction of Israel any more but rather a return to 1967 borders or whatever; now we can debate whether they were ever honest in those claims or not, but I guess we'll never find out since Israel made it abundantly clear that they aren't interested in peace on such terms no matter what UN thinks about that -- so what is there left for them to do?
Are there stats on what Palestinians think of Hamas or their approval rating or whatever? And how many people Palestinians actually bare bone hate Israel?
I'd assume that a large number of even those Palestinians who don't support Hamas actually hate Israel, what with being ethnically cleansed and murdered for several decades straight.
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So how would you address the underlying reason? Give the land back?
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Well, first of all, you have to accept that peace and end of terrorism isn't going to happen overnight. Any meaningful change will take years if not decades at this point, given how deep resentment goes and how many grievances both sides have against each other. That said, the absolute minimum that Israel needs to do is put an end to their colonizing of Palestinian land and start prosecuting Israelis for violence against Palestinians. Beyond that, there needs to be more economic development in Palestinian territories, and some progress towards Palestine gaining control of their own borders as well as connections between Gaza and the West bank (those are probably the most difficult parts as smuggling of weapons etc is obviously an issue, but steps in that direction have to be developed anyway).
Of course there's also the issue of Palestinian state -- what are its borders going to be like, how is it going to be governed; but any discussions about that are moot as long as Israelis keep building new settlements and shooting and bombing people.
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On December 29 2023 09:36 Uldridge wrote:
So your suggestion is, to force the Israelis to adopt an integration strategy, which they themselves don't really want - at least not now - and then to wait a few decades?
All the while, do the heavy lifting of dismantling Hamas, without too many civilians getting killed in the process (where is the ehtical line here?). Remember that Israelis and Palestinians need to work together on this, because they need to completely denounce Hamas. Will that happen? With so many young minds to be influenced by their indoctrination tactics? By the way, aren't Israel (and Egypt) already trying to do something about the Hamas situation?
I also don't think 'life just goes on" the second Israel stop fighting. Rockets are fired at Israel, like every other day. Fun life to be an Israeli I guess?
I don't think your idea is viable. I think Palestine needs to get rid of Hamas first, or at the very least have some sort of communal conviction where they denounce them. Either with the help of Israel, or any other nation willing to offer aid here. This would be a huge symbolic step towards something more long lasting. That shows that Palestinians want something instead of retribution for the occupation that Israel is stubbornly upholding. If you want Palestinians to get rid of Hamas you first need to get rid of the reason why Palestinians feel like they need Hamas, aka Israeli oppression. Hence why my 'solution' focusses on first addressing Palestinian oppression.
"get rid of the people you see as fighting for your rights, then when they are gone maybe we will actually give you some rights, but no promises tho".
Can you see how that has absolutely 0 appeal to Palestinians?
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On December 29 2023 12:35 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 01:33 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 00:46 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Nazis never had an oppressor. Palestinians do. This is why Hamas has a much more legit reason than the Nazis did to garner support. Hamas is also an oppressor, not a liberator. Edit: their clear priority is the destruction and removal of Israel. They not only were willing but their plan revolved around slaughtering, raping and torturing as many innocents in Israel as possible to provoke a attack where they could use their human shield strategy and maximize as many innocent Palestinians to die as well. Their leadership puts ZERO value on the Palestinians, they know we value all human rights and are using their deaths. Your position could easily be swapped to justify the ultra orthodox Jewish position of settlement and removal of Palestinians. If you can’t apply and agree with you argument in both directions than it’s not a good argument. It would be better for the Palestinians if Hamas did not exist. Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. You have made that up to feel better about your position. Hamas is a terrorist organization that is a proxy army for Iran to wage its war on Israel. We know this because of their actions and their words. And as for all of your justification for their Sharia law I don’t much care what they want, no more than I care about what ever evil is excused by any religion and nor should you. Hiding oppression in religion is an old trick you wouldn’t fall for it if it was white Christian’s or clearly for Jews so do not do it for Muslims. It is not racist to call out evil.
What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea.
The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this.
So I ask you, what did I make up?
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
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On December 29 2023 16:17 Uldridge wrote:
Are there stats on what Palestinians think of Hamas or their approval rating or whatever? And how many people Palestinians actually bare bone hate Israel?
I saw a poll from early November (so a month into the current flare-up), and their approval rating is very high in it. 76% for Hamas overall, 89% for the military wing of Hamas, the only other factions with similar approval ratings are other militant groups like PIJ:
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public Opinion Poll - Gaza War 2023.pdf
Another interesting figure there is that "68% stated that their support for a two-state solution has declined".
While the rest of the world talks 1000x more about a solution now than we did before October, it's probably the worst time for one. The actual Palestinians and Israelis seem significantly less inclined to compromise now.
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The actual Palestinians and Israelis seem significantly less inclined to compromise now.
This is why we don't usually leave decision making to angry crowds. Of course people are less inclined to compromise after a bunch of people is killed.
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On December 29 2023 23:08 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +The actual Palestinians and Israelis seem significantly less inclined to compromise now. This is why we don't usually leave decision making to angry crowds. Of course people are less inclined to compromise after a bunch of people is killed.
Right, so who is supposed to implement all this external theorycrafting that neither of the parties involved give a shit about?
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On December 29 2023 09:36 Uldridge wrote:
So your suggestion is, to force the Israelis to adopt an integration strategy, which they themselves don't really want - at least not now - and then to wait a few decades?
All the while, do the heavy lifting of dismantling Hamas, without too many civilians getting killed in the process (where is the ehtical line here?). Remember that Israelis and Palestinians need to work together on this, because they need to completely denounce Hamas. Will that happen? With so many young minds to be influenced by their indoctrination tactics? By the way, aren't Israel (and Egypt) already trying to do something about the Hamas situation?
I also don't think 'life just goes on" the second Israel stop fighting. Rockets are fired at Israel, like every other day. Fun life to be an Israeli I guess?
I don't think your idea is viable. I think Palestine needs to get rid of Hamas first, or at the very least have some sort of communal conviction where they denounce them. Either with the help of Israel, or any other nation willing to offer aid here. This would be a huge symbolic step towards something more long lasting. That shows that Palestinians want something instead of retribution for the occupation that Israel is stubbornly upholding.
Applying the same sanctions to israel that you've done to russua would utterly crush their economy.
That's what should be done.
This conflict is a balance of power, let's take away their power.
Hamas will stop when the conditions of the palestinians will get better. When they will have something to lose rather than living on a closed city.
As far as fun goes, the slaughtering of children seem pretty fun when I am going though the tiktok of idf soldiers. They're drawing nice dicks along the shells, they dancew they're laughing or making silly jokes about the destroyed houses, good times. Their life seem really really easy tbh.
Then I go on some channel of palestinian journalist and others and I am seeing the beautiful results of dead/super injured children.
But that's all "hamas propaganda" ofc, especially when the idf proudly states they drop up to 1000 tons of bombs into gaza...
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On December 29 2023 23:59 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 12:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. You have made that up to feel better about your position. Hamas is a terrorist organization that is a proxy army for Iran to wage its war on Israel. We know this because of their actions and their words. And as for all of your justification for their Sharia law I don’t much care what they want, no more than I care about what ever evil is excused by any religion and nor should you. Hiding oppression in religion is an old trick you wouldn’t fall for it if it was white Christian’s or clearly for Jews so do not do it for Muslims. It is not racist to call out evil. What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea. The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this. So I ask you, what did I make up? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ The whole part before you bit about Sharialaw, which is what I indicated in my post. Like have you considered that if Hamas “wins” there will be mass murder and torture then one of the most oppressive regimes in the entire world will be created? Hamas winning is worse for Palestinians than Israel winning. With Israel they are just one election away from it being much better for them. With Hamas winning it is likely generations of awful. It is completely fine to talk about the actions that Israel has taken and what is wrong with them. But you jump the shark when you start talking about Hamas in any sort of positive light.
They've been "just one election away" from it being much better since 1967, yet somehow their territory keeps getting smaller.
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On December 29 2023 23:59 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 12:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. You have made that up to feel better about your position. Hamas is a terrorist organization that is a proxy army for Iran to wage its war on Israel. We know this because of their actions and their words. And as for all of your justification for their Sharia law I don’t much care what they want, no more than I care about what ever evil is excused by any religion and nor should you. Hiding oppression in religion is an old trick you wouldn’t fall for it if it was white Christian’s or clearly for Jews so do not do it for Muslims. It is not racist to call out evil. What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea. The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this. So I ask you, what did I make up? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ The whole part before you bit about Sharialaw, which is what I indicated in my post. Like have you considered that if Hamas “wins” there will be mass murder and torture then one of the most oppressive regimes in the entire world will be created? Hamas winning is worse for Palestinians than Israel winning. With Israel they are just one election away from it being much better for them. With Hamas winning it is likely generations of awful. It is completely fine to talk about the actions that Israel has taken and what is wrong with them. But you jump the shark when you start talking about Hamas in any sort of positive light.
Nobody here is talking about Hamas in positive light. Stop with the strawmen already. Also, Hamas is never going to 'win' against Israel if by 'winning' you mean actually defeating Israel. And if by Hamas winning you mean getting Israel to stop bombing them and ethnically cleansing their land... well, I don't see how that would be generations of awful, honestly.
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