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On December 30 2023 07:58 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 07:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:32 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:59 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 06:25 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:20 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 05:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 05:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 04:56 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 02:20 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
Nobody here is talking about Hamas in positive light. Stop with the strawmen already. Also, Hamas is never going to 'win' against Israel if by 'winning' you mean actually defeating Israel. And if by Hamas winning you mean getting Israel to stop bombing them and ethnically cleansing their land... well, I don't see how that would be generations of awful, honestly. People are calling Hamas liberators and freedom fighters. You like to say Hamas is bad in one post than skirt around them being good or necessary. Hamas is a proxy army for the Iranian regime which Includes a lot of militias and the Iranian army. They could most certainly win at some point as they keep gaining strength and it would be terrible for all the humans of almost every creed if they did. Some males in high ranking positions would do better I guess. None of what I’m saying excuses Israel’s response. Just Hamas is way worse and it’s a loss for Palestinians and humanity whenever they gain power or success. The Palestinians, who are actually the oppressed ones - unlike us impartial observers - disagree with you. They think Israel is way worse for them than Hamas. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They also believe that Hamas is going to win them all of Israel and they have killed most of the people who opposed them. Do you think Criminea should be given to Russia if they can win a poll or do you critically think about why a poll might indicate it. Do you magic power think Palestinians would be better off if Hamas won? If so state your case, if not stop. I absolutely do believe that Palestinians would be better off under Hamas rule if they had their own state with no oppression by Israel. Yes. Glad you finally said it. I completely disagree. How do you deal with their complete lack of respect for human rights, especially those of women? Complete lack of respect for human rights sounds exactly like Israeli oppression of Palestinians. I think that should settle the question. At least then they get to live under the rule that they chose for themselves. That’s false equivalence, are you trying to win an internet argument or is that what you really believe. Of course they should. A democracy would be fantastic. Pretending that extodinarly abused women since childhood have any say or are choosing it is horrible. It is worse than the western attitude of she wanted it because of how she dressed or acted. Do better please. It's not a false equivalence. The oppression by Israel is worse than whatever oppression you imagine by Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians apparently support Sharia Law. I posted the link to the survey results. Any comments on that? I do not imagine it, they are proud of it. You seriously need to do some reading about what Hamas is as an organization and what they believe in. Start with women and their eligibility for basic schooling, female circumcises and move on to honor killings then go from there. Also check out what they do to men that are not devout as them, even other Muslims.
I know very well how horrible Sharia Law is.
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Norway28591 Posts
On December 30 2023 07:58 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 07:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:32 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:59 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 06:25 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:20 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 05:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 05:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 04:56 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 02:20 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
Nobody here is talking about Hamas in positive light. Stop with the strawmen already. Also, Hamas is never going to 'win' against Israel if by 'winning' you mean actually defeating Israel. And if by Hamas winning you mean getting Israel to stop bombing them and ethnically cleansing their land... well, I don't see how that would be generations of awful, honestly. People are calling Hamas liberators and freedom fighters. You like to say Hamas is bad in one post than skirt around them being good or necessary. Hamas is a proxy army for the Iranian regime which Includes a lot of militias and the Iranian army. They could most certainly win at some point as they keep gaining strength and it would be terrible for all the humans of almost every creed if they did. Some males in high ranking positions would do better I guess. None of what I’m saying excuses Israel’s response. Just Hamas is way worse and it’s a loss for Palestinians and humanity whenever they gain power or success. The Palestinians, who are actually the oppressed ones - unlike us impartial observers - disagree with you. They think Israel is way worse for them than Hamas. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They also believe that Hamas is going to win them all of Israel and they have killed most of the people who opposed them. Do you think Criminea should be given to Russia if they can win a poll or do you critically think about why a poll might indicate it. Do you magic power think Palestinians would be better off if Hamas won? If so state your case, if not stop. I absolutely do believe that Palestinians would be better off under Hamas rule if they had their own state with no oppression by Israel. Yes. Glad you finally said it. I completely disagree. How do you deal with their complete lack of respect for human rights, especially those of women? Complete lack of respect for human rights sounds exactly like Israeli oppression of Palestinians. I think that should settle the question. At least then they get to live under the rule that they chose for themselves. That’s false equivalence, are you trying to win an internet argument or is that what you really believe. Of course they should. A democracy would be fantastic. Pretending that extodinarly abused women since childhood have any say or are choosing it is horrible. It is worse than the western attitude of she wanted it because of how she dressed or acted. Do better please. It's not a false equivalence. The oppression by Israel is worse than whatever oppression you imagine by Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians apparently support Sharia Law. I posted the link to the survey results. Any comments on that? I do not imagine it, they are proud of it. You seriously need to do some reading about what Hamas is as an organization and what they believe in. Start with women and their eligibility for basic schooling, female circumcises and move on to honor killings then go from there. Also check out what they do to men that are not devout as them, even other Muslims.
I don't really think female circumcision is a Hamas thing. From palestine.unfpa.org There is no evidence that female genital mutilation/circumcision is practiced in Palestine.41 Some believe that incidents occur in
certain communities42 such as in the southern parts of the Gaza Strip, where there is an Egyptian influence. However, laws and
policies do not specifically prohibit these practices.
IS were big fans, but aside from that it's been more of an African thing (particularly Somalian), and insofar as I know, not really rooted in religious beliefs (even though some Somalians claim it is). (more info here if you or anyone else are curious)
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On December 30 2023 07:42 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 08:33 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 08:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 07:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 07:08 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:37 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. Israel is not being oppressed by Hamas, but Hamas oppresses their constituents. But even if we ignore the whole oppression component of Hamas, the fact that their goals are very clearly stated as extending beyond Israel means it isn't sufficient or even honest to frame the situation as Hamas being entirely internal to the Israel-Palestine conflict.Mahmoud al-Zahar is the co-founder of Hamas, so I think his perspective on the goals of Hamas are relevant here.
"The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
Hamas as a movement has evolved a lot over the course of its existence, and has borrowed from this and that over the course of its evolution. Changes in leadership and developing global political situations have led to certain voices being stronger or weaker over time. The root of the current form of Hamas can be traced back to the Ottoman empire. Pan-Islamism has of course been around for a very long time, but the current context of pan-Islamism became louder towards the end of the Ottoman empire and then became 1 of 2 dominant perspectives after the fall of the Ottoman empire. In the early years after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arab nationalism dominated and suppressed pan-islamism and islamists were oppressed and tortured and whatnot to prevent them from gaining too much power and overthrowing Arab nationalists. Pan-Islamism was mostly dead in the dirt in the 1950s, largely because Nasser was remarkably successful as the leader of Egypt and had a couple really clutch military wins against the west during his rule. But when he got cocky and overextended, he basically went all-in and lost everything during the 6 day war. After the 6 day war, Arab nationalism was on life support and pan-islamism became dominant again. But its important to keep in mind pan-islamism, despite being a major component of the current form of Hamas, was not some kind of reaction to Israel. Pan-Islamism has been around for a very long time. Pan-Islamism has been the enemy of Arab nationalism, then the enemy of colonialism, then the enemy of the west as a whole, and so on and so forth. Its not that pan-Islamism wouldn't exist without Israel. Israel is just the best rallying cry for Islamists at the moment. The quote I included above from one of Hamas's founders does not make sense if we assume Hamas's ideology is just some kinda "freedom fighter" movement against Israel. But it makes complete sense when you contextualize it within the history of Arab nationalism, pan-islamism, and the general idea of a caliphate. I just wanted to take the time to elaborate on why I have said Hamas isn't some kind of Israel-exclusive movement and that Israel not existing would have prevented the whole thing. It is an extension of pan-Islamism, and we have a wealth of information and history to show us where Hamas leadership got their ideas, and the history of those ideas. Events in history can give a movement and ideology a lot of extra power, but we have seen highs and lows in both Arab nationalism and pan-Islamism throughout history. We can't pretend this whole problem goes away in some fictitious situation where Israel never existed to begin with. We even have their own words, shown above, that clearly indicate what the goals of pan-Islamism are. Apparently this keeps going over people's heads. I'm not arguing that Hamas' conquest would, if successful, remain restricted to Israel or Palestine. I didn't say that anywhere. What I'm saying is that Hamas can reasonably argue that they're fighting against oppressors. This point is indisputable, because Israel is in fact an oppressor of Palestinians. Whether we like it or not, this gives credibility to Hamas' call to violence of Palestinians against the Israeli population. Since Palestinians are in fact oppressed by Israel, therefore Hamas cannot be strictly labeled a pure evil. Instead they're an evil born out of oppression. You may not like to hear this, but it's true. Hamas is fueled by righteousness, not by bloodlust. Their bloodlust follows from their righteousness. Whatever other calls for violence Hamas sends out to Palestinians - against people outside of Israel and against non-Jews - are simply a result of the existing extremist views against Israel. Everything follows. The US supports Israel. The UN is powerless to stop the US. European nations are not sanctioning the US for supporting Israel, and instead engaged in open trade. And so forth. The whole train of thought goes from "destroy Israel" to "destroy every supporter of Israel", because the root of Hamas' righteousness is true: Israel oppresses the Palestinians. As long as this one idea is true, every other idea follows. Hamas is therefore not inherently evil (as the Nazis were). Their evil actions are caused by their righteousness. Hamas can only be destroyed after Israel has stopped oppressing Palestinians. Its not novel to point out that people think what they are doing is good. I don't doubt many of these Islamist dipshits think they have the right idea. But moral relativism has no value, and it doesn't mean anything for someone to think they are doing something good. They are doing bad things and there's no incentive to pat them on the head for being wrong about something. If you read what I said, you will see that Hamas's ideology was not born out of oppression because it predates Israel. They have been fighting against this and that for a long time. Israel is just the big rallying cry for them right now. Pan-Islamist ideology being appealing to enemies of Israel does not mean the ideology was born from Israel. The ideology that currently dominates Hamas existed before Israel. Israel is something their ideology totally hates, but it would exist with or without Israel. We know this because it existed before Israel. Maybe its worth just pausing at this point and asking if this makes sense and if you agree. Do you think pan-islamist ideology existed before Israel? Do you think the founding members of Hamas and the movements that came before Hamas held pan-islamist views prior to the formation of Israel? Edit: Are you familiar with the history of Arab Nationalism's conflict with pan-Islamist ideology both before and after the fall of the Ottoman empire? I'm not patting anyone on the head. Certainly not Hamas. Or if I did, I'm sure you can quote me on it. Meanwhile I can quote the many times I condemned Hamas. Would Hamas exist without Israel? What does that mean? I don't quite understand. It would mean that the only possible oppression of Palestinians would be internal. Their own leaders. We can discuss that, but it has nothing to do with the Israel-Gaza conflict. Assuming we conclude that Hamas would be oppressing Palestinians, that wouldn't change anything about the fact that one oppressor (Israel) would be out of the way. This is indisputable. Israel isn't "saving Palestinians from the oppression of Hamas". That's not what's happening. Israel is oppressing Palestinians, and if or when Hamas is out of the picture, that oppression will continue. It won't end with Hamas. If Hamas can even be ended to begin with. Let me contextualize this in another way: Think about “moms for liberty”, which is a right wing group that focuses on legal topics pertaining to LGBTQ people. They focus a lot of their energy on fighting against trans rights and gay rights. But many of the people involved were not actually radicalized by trans people in particular. It’s their main purpose right now, but it’s not what got them into that ideology. I’m not sure how old you are or what things are like in your country, but as a 35 year old American, I had plenty of friends growing up who had religious fundamentalist parents. Their parents took a hard line stance against dragon ball Z. Any kind of symbolism or topic involving dragons was deeply heretical to them. They advocated for banning DBZ at school and stuff like that. These same people did all the same stuff with Harry Potter because they considered magic to be an affront to god. And now same thing with trans people. It’s not that DBZ radicalized these folks. They held all these views long before even having kids. This far right social movement is an example of how even if there is a current lightning rod topic that all of their followers focus on, and even if that is their main method of recruitment at a given time, the movement existed way before that and they had disagreements with many other topics before that. Similarly, the founding of Hamas involved people who subscribed to pan-Islamist beliefs before Israel existed. And as the organization gained and lost leaders, the focus increasingly became Israel because anyone who held a pan-islamist world view would see Israel as the absolute highest level of evil according to pan-Islamism. Furthermore, Palestinians who hated Israel heard what pan islamists were saying and agreed with them. But taking a step back, just like the parents who hated DBZ, many of the leaders and older members hated other stuff before Israel existed. The people who taught them these beliefs taught other people too, and they moved other places and participated in pan Islamist movements unrelated to Israel. Here is where I think you have misunderstood the situation: Hamas is not saying they will eliminate everyone else and establish a caliphate because they hate all those people for helping Israel. This isn’t a “I hate you and all your friends” movement. This is an existing movement that has voiced the same beliefs before Israel. Their leaders hated other stuff before Israel. The movement has other factions unrelated to Israel. Please read that quote from a few posts ago again. That line of thinking did not begin because people helped Israel. That line of thinking was present during the Ottoman Empire. Scholars from the Ottoman Empire went on to play major roles in Iran later in life. This topic is much larger than you are giving credit. If Israel vanished tomorrow, Hamas would not hang up their bomb vests and decide to leave their life of violence behind. They wouldn’t look up at the sky and say “finally, evil has been vanquished, and I can live a happy life as a carpenter.”. There are tons of other things they will go on to be violent about. The Israel conflict is a means of recruitment and it is a topic highly relevant to pan Islamist ideology. But for the same reason Iran has other priorities besides Israel, pan Islamism does too. Israel can’t be labeled as the core motivation or birthing moment of Hamas. Firstly, Hamas is caused by oppression. The Palestinians don't want to be oppressed. This is why there was support for Hamas to begin with. Secondly, Hamas can beat their chests about world domination all they want, it won't happen. They weren't even able to defeat Israel, and they will never be able to. They certainly won't get anywhere beyond that. Absolutely they won't. Thirdly, if the oppression of Palestinians ends, then Hamas naturally weakens externally. This is because most people don't want to go to war with other countries that aren't visibly oppressing them. Hamas will not be able to project aggression outwards into Western nations. The Palestinian people will have what they want, Hamas will have what they want, and then the Palestinians will have to figure out how to deal with a potential oppression by Hamas - if they even want to deal with them at all. Similar end result (although different path) as Afghanistan with the Taliban. Fourthly, if Hamas are somehow able to project outwards aggression after the oppression by Israel ends (in an alternate universe), that would change nothing about the fact that the oppressor of Palestinians is, first and foremost, Israel. Hamas is secondary. The last couple of responses have indicated you are breezing through my posts to get the gist of what I am saying. I don't blame you, because I am writing up very long posts and not everyone feels like reading all of it. But I also think its possible I am doing a bad job at explaining these concepts. So I am going to give it another shot and hope I do a better job and we're able to have a productive conversation. I take to put it all together is worthwhile for the sake of the continued interaction and opportunity to increase my understanding of other viewpoints. If my posts are so long that you just don't even feel like it, I take no offense, but please do let me know. I will focus my attention on other sub-topics and other conversations if this system is not appealing to you. With that being said...! Think of Islamism as religious fundamentalism. Islamism nations/groups view nations like Saudi Arabia as insufficiently strictly adhering to Muslim traditionalism/government. Before, during, and after the Ottoman empire, Islamists have been waging wars and revolutions against Arab nationalists. They view Christians, Jews, and even insufficiently Muslim nations like Saudi Arabia as enemies. Their ultimate goal is to wipe out all non-Islamists and rule the world under a single caliphate. Arab Nationalism = Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and others Islamism = Iran, Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, ISIS, and other extra crazy folks Hamas does not like Israel. Many other Islamist groups do not like Israel for the reasons I listed above. Many Islamist groups hate basically everyone else, because the whole point of their ideology is to be so strict that even Saudi Arabia is not Muslim enough and must be destroyed. Before any of this Israel stuff, Islamists did a bunch of terrorism stuff just like Hamas against other groups and other nations, even Muslim nations that subscribed to Arab Nationalism rather than Islamism. Islamism is an example of a movement which has many purposes, fights against many other movements, and generally is extremely militant, because the entire core of their movement is strict adherence to religious doctrine and to eliminate everything else. Similarly, Christian fundamentalists have fought against many things throughout history. Currently, these groups focus a lot on trans rights because they are a hot button topic that is a great way to bring other people into their movement and fight alongside them. Many people who are not Christian fundamentalists end up aligning with Christian fundamentalists because they hold views that align with them on trans issues. When people who consider themselves "anti-woke" ally themselves with Christian fundamentalists, it is an example of how a movement will grow and shrink over time depending on current events in the world. These "anti-woke" folks likely disagree with Christian fundamentalists on many issues, but they are side-by-side when it comes to issues pertaining to trans people. Many groups/nations in the middle east deeply dislike Israel. The groups/nations that express their hatred of Israel in the form of martyr stuff and general terrorism nonsense are all Islamist. Hamas is not the only group that does terrorism stuff to Israel. Hezbollah and other Islamist groups do terrorism stuff to Israel too. So that means despite all of these groups hating Israel, only some of them take it to the level of actual terrorism and military stuff. The commonality between them is that they are all Islamist. That's why even nations that neighbor Israel don't take as much direct action as Houthis do. Houthis are very geographically removed, just like Iran, but they still play a big role and do everything they can to use violence against Israel. Houthis, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood hate a bunch of different things, and they use violence against all of them. In the absence of the formation if Israel, we can safely assume Islamists will continue to use any and all military options available to them against all non-Islamists. So we have now established many nations and groups that hate Israel do not use violence against Israel. And we have established the groups that use violence against Israel also use violence against other entities. And by tracing the ideological lineage of the founding members of Hamas, the current leaders of Hamas, and the diplomatic/ideological ties of Hamas, we can determine their Islamist ideology applies to many non-Israel situations. And we have proof of that in both modern history and pre-Ottoman history. Do you see that indicates Islamist ideology would continue to violently attack their enemies even in the absence of Israel? In the case of Hamas leadership, we even know many people were dedicating their lives to fighting other battles prior to Israel, which further indicates the Islamist ideology does not have a shortage of reasons to use violence. It is the whole point of their movement. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, Palestinian identity was strongly influenced by Islamism. This Islamism was a part of their identity even before anything to do with Israel. Since this post is already very long, I will just point out tensions between Arab Nationalism and Islamism existed where Palestinians were on the Islamism side of things. Palestinians were of course extra mad about Israel for obvious reasons. But I wanted to take a moment to explain in detail the history of Islamism vs Arab nationalism and how it relates to both current and future middle eastern conflict.
I feel like I should apologize because perhaps I should've told you that I was in fact deliberately not responding to every point you made previously, and this was indeed due to the length of a few of your comments. No offense, it just felt too time consuming, so I started picking out only one or two points that I felt were most worth addressing.
I agree with literally everything in your comment. Every single sentence. I'm not sure if this surprises you or not.
Despite that I think it's still valid regardless to say that the main motivation of Hamas is to destroy an oppressor, and spreading supremacy is secondary. I believe this because Hamas has been by far the most active of all the terrorist groups near Israel over a very long period. They're the ones who launched hundreds of missiles towards Israel several times in recent history (long before October 7). They're also the ones who killed the most Israelis in a single attack, and they're the group that came closest to threatening Israel as a state. This just doesn't look like a coincidence to me. I don't think other terrorist groups don't also get up in the morning. I think Hamas hates Israel a lot more than any other terrorist group does.
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On December 30 2023 08:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 08:04 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 07:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:32 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:59 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 06:25 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:20 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 05:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 05:05 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
The Palestinians, who are actually the oppressed ones - unlike us impartial observers - disagree with you. They think Israel is way worse for them than Hamas. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They also believe that Hamas is going to win them all of Israel and they have killed most of the people who opposed them. Do you think Criminea should be given to Russia if they can win a poll or do you critically think about why a poll might indicate it. Do you magic power think Palestinians would be better off if Hamas won? If so state your case, if not stop. I absolutely do believe that Palestinians would be better off under Hamas rule if they had their own state with no oppression by Israel. Yes. Glad you finally said it. I completely disagree. How do you deal with their complete lack of respect for human rights, especially those of women? Complete lack of respect for human rights sounds exactly like Israeli oppression of Palestinians. I think that should settle the question. At least then they get to live under the rule that they chose for themselves. That’s false equivalence, are you trying to win an internet argument or is that what you really believe. Of course they should. A democracy would be fantastic. Pretending that extodinarly abused women since childhood have any say or are choosing it is horrible. It is worse than the western attitude of she wanted it because of how she dressed or acted. Do better please. It's not a false equivalence. The oppression by Israel is worse than whatever oppression you imagine by Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians apparently support Sharia Law. I posted the link to the survey results. Any comments on that? I do not imagine it, they are proud of it. You seriously need to do some reading about what Hamas is as an organization and what they believe in. Start with women and their eligibility for basic schooling, female circumcises and move on to honor killings then go from there. Also check out what they do to men that are not devout as them, even other Muslims. I know very well how horrible Sharia Law is. So now explain how that is way worse than what Israel is doing? Keep in mind that if Israel wins and defeats Hamas, Fatah or another group could take over soon after the war. Hamas wins you have them for a long time. And Bibi supported Hamas.
I think I said everything. For the Palestinian people, Israel's oppression is worse than Hamas style Sharia Law. How is this hard to understand? You can disagree all you want, I think the argument is valid. In Gaza and the West bank, Israel is not welcome. Hamas has plenty of support. It's clear as day to me.
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On December 30 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 08:29 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 08:12 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 08:04 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 07:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:32 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:59 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 06:25 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:20 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I absolutely do believe that Palestinians would be better off under Hamas rule if they had their own state with no oppression by Israel. Yes. Glad you finally said it. I completely disagree. How do you deal with their complete lack of respect for human rights, especially those of women? Complete lack of respect for human rights sounds exactly like Israeli oppression of Palestinians. I think that should settle the question. At least then they get to live under the rule that they chose for themselves. That’s false equivalence, are you trying to win an internet argument or is that what you really believe. Of course they should. A democracy would be fantastic. Pretending that extodinarly abused women since childhood have any say or are choosing it is horrible. It is worse than the western attitude of she wanted it because of how she dressed or acted. Do better please. It's not a false equivalence. The oppression by Israel is worse than whatever oppression you imagine by Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians apparently support Sharia Law. I posted the link to the survey results. Any comments on that? I do not imagine it, they are proud of it. You seriously need to do some reading about what Hamas is as an organization and what they believe in. Start with women and their eligibility for basic schooling, female circumcises and move on to honor killings then go from there. Also check out what they do to men that are not devout as them, even other Muslims. I know very well how horrible Sharia Law is. So now explain how that is way worse than what Israel is doing? Keep in mind that if Israel wins and defeats Hamas, Fatah or another group could take over soon after the war. Hamas wins you have them for a long time. And Bibi supported Hamas. I think I said everything. For the Palestinian people, Israel's oppression is worse than Hamas style Sharia Law. How is this hard to understand? You can disagree all you want, I think the argument is valid. In Gaza and the West bank, Israel is not welcome. Hamas has plenty of support. It's clear as day to me. It’s hard to understand because you won’t explain it outside of the word oppression. Nazis, the Japan fascists, Mussolini, taliban all appear to have lots of support. Still wouldnt wish them on anyone or support them in anyway.
We've been discussing Israel's oppressiong of Palestinians for many pages. The facts are known. What else do you want me to explain?
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On December 30 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 08:29 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 08:12 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 08:04 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 07:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:32 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:59 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 06:25 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:20 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I absolutely do believe that Palestinians would be better off under Hamas rule if they had their own state with no oppression by Israel. Yes. Glad you finally said it. I completely disagree. How do you deal with their complete lack of respect for human rights, especially those of women? Complete lack of respect for human rights sounds exactly like Israeli oppression of Palestinians. I think that should settle the question. At least then they get to live under the rule that they chose for themselves. That’s false equivalence, are you trying to win an internet argument or is that what you really believe. Of course they should. A democracy would be fantastic. Pretending that extodinarly abused women since childhood have any say or are choosing it is horrible. It is worse than the western attitude of she wanted it because of how she dressed or acted. Do better please. It's not a false equivalence. The oppression by Israel is worse than whatever oppression you imagine by Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians apparently support Sharia Law. I posted the link to the survey results. Any comments on that? I do not imagine it, they are proud of it. You seriously need to do some reading about what Hamas is as an organization and what they believe in. Start with women and their eligibility for basic schooling, female circumcises and move on to honor killings then go from there. Also check out what they do to men that are not devout as them, even other Muslims. I know very well how horrible Sharia Law is. So now explain how that is way worse than what Israel is doing? Keep in mind that if Israel wins and defeats Hamas, Fatah or another group could take over soon after the war. Hamas wins you have them for a long time. And Bibi supported Hamas. I think I said everything. For the Palestinian people, Israel's oppression is worse than Hamas style Sharia Law. How is this hard to understand? You can disagree all you want, I think the argument is valid. In Gaza and the West bank, Israel is not welcome. Hamas has plenty of support. It's clear as day to me. It’s hard to understand because you won’t explain it outside of the word oppression. Nazis, the Japan fascists, Mussolini, taliban all appear to have lots of support. Still wouldnt wish them on anyone or support them in anyway. To get rid of Hamas and stop something else just as bad from rising in its place you first need to understand why Hamas has support. That's basically what this entire circular conversation has been about, trying to get people to see why Hamas has support and that changing the situations from Palestinians might be able to erode that support.
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So one of the topics I am going to be researching tonight is the specific historical details of the 6 day war and the Gaza blockades. For anyone who is more informed than I am, can someone provide me with a specific event or fact from history that makes Egypt closing their borders as a part of the whole “open air prison” thing more defensible than Israel’s?
The common dynamic that’s brought up is Israel making Gaza a prison, but that prison has 2 entrances and only 1 of them are locked by Israel. I dismiss the prison comparison entirely, but for the sake of context, I’m phrasing it that way. In short, what makes Egypt’s wall more justified or moral than Israel’s? I’m not asking this as a bait or trap or whatever, I legitimately don’t know much at all about these walls yet, which is why I’m asking this question in advance because it’s something I plan to research myself later tonight. I just don’t really know where to start.
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On December 30 2023 10:55 Mohdoo wrote:
So one of the topics I am going to be researching tonight is the specific historical details of the 6 day war and the Gaza blockades. For anyone who is more informed than I am, can someone provide me with a specific event or fact from history that makes Egypt closing their borders as a part of the whole “open air prison” thing more defensible than Israel’s?
The common dynamic that’s brought up is Israel making Gaza a prison, but that prison has 2 entrances and only 1 of them are locked by Israel. I dismiss the prison comparison entirely, but for the sake of context, I’m phrasing it that way. In short, what makes Egypt’s wall more justified or moral than Israel’s? I’m not asking this as a bait or trap or whatever, I legitimately don’t know much at all about these walls yet, which is why I’m asking this question in advance because it’s something I plan to research myself later tonight. I just don’t really know where to start.
This one's quite simple. Egypt only blocks access to its own land, which is their perogative, they don't block the access of Gazans to the rest of the world. It's Israel that bulldozed Gaza's airport and blockade its coastline.
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Gaza is not the Soviet Union. There are many Gazans with dual citizenship. Some of them left Gaza after October 7 and have not returned.
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On December 30 2023 14:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Gaza is not the Soviet Union. There are many Gazans with dual citizenship. Some of them left Gaza after October 7 and have not returned.
You're right, Gaza is not the Soviet Union. Soviet Union had actual air and sea ports and controlled its own border crossings.
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On December 30 2023 09:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 08:52 Gorsameth wrote:On December 30 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 08:29 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 08:12 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 08:04 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 07:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:32 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:59 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Complete lack of respect for human rights sounds exactly like Israeli oppression of Palestinians. I think that should settle the question. At least then they get to live under the rule that they chose for themselves. That’s false equivalence, are you trying to win an internet argument or is that what you really believe. Of course they should. A democracy would be fantastic. Pretending that extodinarly abused women since childhood have any say or are choosing it is horrible. It is worse than the western attitude of she wanted it because of how she dressed or acted. Do better please. It's not a false equivalence. The oppression by Israel is worse than whatever oppression you imagine by Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians apparently support Sharia Law. I posted the link to the survey results. Any comments on that? I do not imagine it, they are proud of it. You seriously need to do some reading about what Hamas is as an organization and what they believe in. Start with women and their eligibility for basic schooling, female circumcises and move on to honor killings then go from there. Also check out what they do to men that are not devout as them, even other Muslims. I know very well how horrible Sharia Law is. So now explain how that is way worse than what Israel is doing? Keep in mind that if Israel wins and defeats Hamas, Fatah or another group could take over soon after the war. Hamas wins you have them for a long time. And Bibi supported Hamas. I think I said everything. For the Palestinian people, Israel's oppression is worse than Hamas style Sharia Law. How is this hard to understand? You can disagree all you want, I think the argument is valid. In Gaza and the West bank, Israel is not welcome. Hamas has plenty of support. It's clear as day to me. It’s hard to understand because you won’t explain it outside of the word oppression. Nazis, the Japan fascists, Mussolini, taliban all appear to have lots of support. Still wouldnt wish them on anyone or support them in anyway. To get rid of Hamas and stop something else just as bad from rising in its place you first need to understand why Hamas has support. That's basically what this entire circular conversation has been about, trying to get people to see why Hamas has support and that changing the situations from Palestinians might be able to erode that support. That is the conversation I’ve been trying to have from the start on how to eliminate Hamas because from the start I’ve stated how ineffective this is and how the costs would way to high. But instead I just get yelled down for being pro Israel for pointing out how awful Hamas is and really meaning it. Because we half a world away thinking that Hamas is bad changes nothing about the situation and beliefs of the Palestinians who actually support Hamas.
If you want to get anywhere in a discussion about how to make them not want Hamas you need to talk about why do they do support them, not why they shouldn't. We all know why they shouldn't.
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On December 30 2023 09:06 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 08:51 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 08:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 08:29 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 08:12 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 08:04 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 07:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 07:32 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:59 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Complete lack of respect for human rights sounds exactly like Israeli oppression of Palestinians. I think that should settle the question. At least then they get to live under the rule that they chose for themselves. That’s false equivalence, are you trying to win an internet argument or is that what you really believe. Of course they should. A democracy would be fantastic. Pretending that extodinarly abused women since childhood have any say or are choosing it is horrible. It is worse than the western attitude of she wanted it because of how she dressed or acted. Do better please. It's not a false equivalence. The oppression by Israel is worse than whatever oppression you imagine by Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians apparently support Sharia Law. I posted the link to the survey results. Any comments on that? I do not imagine it, they are proud of it. You seriously need to do some reading about what Hamas is as an organization and what they believe in. Start with women and their eligibility for basic schooling, female circumcises and move on to honor killings then go from there. Also check out what they do to men that are not devout as them, even other Muslims. I know very well how horrible Sharia Law is. So now explain how that is way worse than what Israel is doing? Keep in mind that if Israel wins and defeats Hamas, Fatah or another group could take over soon after the war. Hamas wins you have them for a long time. And Bibi supported Hamas. I think I said everything. For the Palestinian people, Israel's oppression is worse than Hamas style Sharia Law. How is this hard to understand? You can disagree all you want, I think the argument is valid. In Gaza and the West bank, Israel is not welcome. Hamas has plenty of support. It's clear as day to me. It’s hard to understand because you won’t explain it outside of the word oppression. Nazis, the Japan fascists, Mussolini, taliban all appear to have lots of support. Still wouldnt wish them on anyone or support them in anyway. We've been discussing Israel's oppressiong of Palestinians for many pages. The facts are known. What else do you want me to explain? Yes, please explain what is specifically worse.
West bank:
1) The West bank is illegally occupied
This is an act of aggression and a war crime. All Jewish settlements are illegal, every single one of them. The international community has strongly condemned Israel's actions in the West bank for allowing, funding and protecting Jewish settlers all over the map. Israel has created ethnically segregated ghettos in the West bank which is effectively a two-class state without laws. It is a very severe form of Apartheid.
2) The Jewish settlers render many economic pursuits for Palestinians impossible, and freedom of movement does not exist
The movement of all Palestinians is severely restricted, and this restriction is also illegal. If Palestinians have career aspirations, those are often crushed from the start. They cannot cross through settler areas, thus heavily disincentivizing - sometimes making it impossible - the movement between Palestinian areas. Furthermore, there are also many areas unused by settlers which are also often impassable.
Meanwhile Jewish settlers can move freely between Israel and the illegal settlements, nothing is holding them back. They're funded by the state and thus incentivized to continue the encroachment even without any religious intent.
As we speak there's more construction for future settlements covering large areas in the West bank. Living space continues to be stolen from Palestinians. This will further diminish the economic prospects of Palestinians.
3) The oppression is a lot worse than what many people realize
While Israel is responsible for their Jewish settlers, there is no retribution for their crimes. Meanwhile Israel has imprisoned many Palestinians involved in violent action or disputes. There are many accusations of IDF soldiers taking kids into custody without a shred of evidence. There are many allegations of unprovoked beatings received by Palestinians, and we haven't heard about most of these cases because they go unrecorded. There are never any consequences for these soldiers or for the violent settlers, they're effectively above the law.
There are cameras everywhere on the Palestinian side of the West bank. It's mass surveillance. The place is plastered with cameras. Meanwhile very few cameras are pointed at the settlers, of which the most violent and otherwise dangerous ones live nearby the Palestinians. This further drives the overwhelming injustice, and it is speculated that the dark figure of settler/IDF crimes against the Palestinian population is many times greater than what is generally known.
Tall and wide walls span the entire region, so does barb wire, and checkpoints are everywhere. Around the clock guns are pointed at the Palestine region. The Palestinians can thus be described as eternal hostages.
Gaza:
4) Just as the West bank is a ghetto of eternal Palestinian hostages, so is Gaza
All movement to and from the outside world is restricted, sometimes even impossible. Access to natural resources is limited by Israel. Foreign companies have no incentive to invest in Gaza's economy (for obvious reasons), leaving the people economically stranded. They live in a constant state of economic uncertainty, often having to go hungry. It is estimated that half of the population is under 18, and career opportunities are scarce. If this is life under Israel's thumb, then it's hard to argue it'll be much worse under Hamas. We only need to look at Iran or Iraq for comparison, where the standard of living and the age expectancy is better than in Gaza. In the West bank the situation is not much different compared to Gaza.
5) The IDF has killed far more people than Hamas has
The ratio is upwards of 10 : 1
Nothing more needs to be added.
6) Israel has the power, Palestinians do not
With power comes responsibility. Greater power requires greater responsibility. Israel has ten times if not a hundred times the power compared to Palestinians. Yet, Israel's leadership has never acknowledged its failure on the world stage and/or reverted its aggressive policies in the face of consistent international criticism and demand. This means that Israel's leadership is an unaccountable immoral actor. They have no excuse for their illegal and brutal West bank encroachment (EDIT: I should've put this as an overall point, not specifically Gaza). They're oppressing these Palestinians for the sake of domination and wealth, not for any self-defense purposes.
7) Israel's oppression causes more extremism and fuels the cycle of violence
Hamas is a consequence of decades long oppression and policies by Israel. They were established around the same time as Hezbollah, and for nearly identical reasons. Israel has a strong hand in the extremism that exists right now among Palestinians and in other Arab nations. These terrorist groups, while often in dispute with each other, also often work closely with each other. They have a common enemy in Israel and thus they cooperate in smuggling weapons around. This is one of the main ways in which Hamas got propped up militarily for the October 7 invasion.
8) Israel's oppression of Palestinians does not prevent internal oppression of Palestinians (and neither does the mission to destroy Hamas)
This is connected to point 7. I would argue that Israel much rather fuels internal Palestinian oppression by fueling extremism. Hamas in particular might've never become so powerful if not for Israel's heavy-handed approach.
Thus it can be argued that Israel creates the setting for internal Palestinian oppression. They undermined the PLO, they ignored warning signs about Hamas, and it is even debated that Israel financed Hamas. Thus Israel caused more of the extremism that - if Palestinians were liberated from Israel - could threaten to oppress Palestinians in the aftermath.
This war right now is no exception. Israel is again creating fertile ground for even greater extremism (yes, it can get worse than Hamas). This can only lead to even greater oppression of Palestinians.
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On December 30 2023 20:40 Magic Powers wrote:
Thus it can be argued that Israel creates the setting for internal Palestinian oppression. They undermined the PLO, they ignored warning signs about Hamas, and it is even debated that Israel financed Hamas.
"Israel financed Hamas"
This doesn't have to be the PM personally delivering a suitcase of cash. All you need are a couple of israeli government officials and/or military officials to make this happen. They could easily be 3+ management layers under the PM. There are situations where it can be impossible for the PM to ever find out. Financial crimes in Israel are way up. What about the finacial crimes going undiagnosed and undiscovered?
We will never know how Hamas receives all of its funding.
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EPT
