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On November 29 2023 08:36 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdfIgnoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits. Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point.
You are totally correct in pointing out there are plenty of examples of unethical behavior and that this behavior creates anger that is then used to recruit and whatnot. However, even if we assume Israel decided to give Palestinians every demand they could ever ask for, it is worth remembering any progress that would be made would take an extremely long time. It would take years, if not decades to mend relations between Jews and Palestinians.
Keep in mind this tension is not between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between a wide range of countries in the middle east and Jews as a whole. After the formation of Israel in 1948, many different Muslim nations widely utilized collective punishment against Jews with no relation to anything happening in Israel.
So just to reiterate, yes, you are totally right that Israel would be able to reduce hatred of Jews by discontinuing their settlements efforts. But it is worth keeping in mind these tensions would never go away overnight. This would be a long journey. Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas. If Iran and Qatar are declining to disarm Hamas internally, no one should pretend they are surprised when Israel uses military force to remove Hamas from power. The war between Hamas and Israel is a tragedy for the world, but it is indeed a war. Asking Israeli civilians to just embrace danger as an olive branch to repair relations of the course of many years isn't reasonable. Just like how Palestinian civilians have no guilt in this situation, neither do Israeli civilians.
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On November 29 2023 09:22 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 08:36 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdfIgnoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits. On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point. You are totally correct in pointing out there are plenty of examples of unethical behavior and that this behavior creates anger that is then used to recruit and whatnot. However, even if we assume Israel decided to give Palestinians every demand they could ever ask for, it is worth remembering any progress that would be made would take an extremely long time. It would take years, if not decades to mend relations between Jews and Palestinians. Keep in mind this tension is not between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between a wide range of countries in the middle east and Jews as a whole. After the formation of Israel in 1948, many different Muslim nations widely utilized collective punishment against Jews with no relation to anything happening in Israel. So just to reiterate, yes, you are totally right that Israel would be able to reduce hatred of Jews by discontinuing their settlements efforts. But it is worth keeping in mind these tensions would never go away overnight. This would be a long journey. Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas. If Iran and Qatar are declining to disarm Hamas internally, no one should pretend they are surprised when Israel uses military force to remove Hamas from power. The war between Hamas and Israel is a tragedy for the world, but it is indeed a war. Asking Israeli civilians to just embrace danger as an olive branch to repair relations of the course of many years isn't reasonable. Just like how Palestinian civilians have no guilt in this situation, neither do Israeli civilians.
You'll notice a key difference between 'many different Muslim nations' and Palestinians: the ones that aren't being ethnically cleansed aren't sending terrorists and suicide bombers into Israel.
There is nothing particularly surprising about Israel supposedly wanting to remove Hamas from power after the October attack (even though they themselves helped Hamas to get into position of power to begin with). But their desire to remove Hamas from power is not a blank cheque to kill however many civilians they deem necessary to achieve their goals, not to mention that they don't seem to have any realistic plan that would have any real chance of actually achieving the said goal. If safety of Israelis was their true primary concern, they'd be seeking to de-escalate tensions and reduce radicalization rather than grabbing as much land as they can possibly get away with in the West Bank and discussing mass deportations from the Gaza Strip.
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On November 28 2023 23:57 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 19:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:
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I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things.
Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies. We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default. We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies. A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with. You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view. I do not believe that they will be given a fair opportunity. I like the just love approach. I was very excited to see how Mexico's hugs not bombs approach would work. Spoiler is that it didn't work well at all. The cartels just took more and there were some atrocities (much smaller than Oct7th) which created a political situation where the people demanded the police and military do something. Hamas is more powerful within Gaza than the Cartels are in Mexico, they are the government. They are the ones choosing the education and it is a education of hate where they are taught how evil outsiders are and it is their religious duty to kill them all. An earlier point you made I agree with which is about how the extreme power imbalance makes the existential fear of being wiped not the most realistic fear. However, I do not know how realistic unfearful you can be when a group just committed the worst mass murder (zero military targets) and it was celebrated with the promise of more. You have the US as a very shaky ally especially in the time of Trump where he is one oil deal from switching sides or even one wrong comment from a Jewish celebrity. I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression?
Well actually, yes. I can point to multiple points in history where, if they had chosen peace over war, they would be in a significantly better position than they became otherwise:
1948: If they had peacefully accepted the UN proposed partition plan instead of going to war, they would currently have the borders outlined in that plan. Those borders (and the peace that might have followed) are better than any plan that is realistically put forward by anyone today.
1967: If they had peacefully accepted the status quo, they would have territory everywhere outside the "Green Line" that they are trying to get back to now. There were no blockades or even any Israeli control anywhere outside of that line. They would have been part of Egypt and Jordan, but PLO's founding documents say that the goal was to leave Gaza and the West Bank under Egyptian and Jordanian control, so they clearly weren't bothered by that factor.
1987: Palestinians outside the Green Line had, on average, better earnings and living conditions than Arabs in other states in the Middle East. Providing an immigrant workforce for a more developed country is pretty good for your economy and tons of workers worked in Israel proper. (See also, Mexico being next to the US and it's resultant econmic superiority over most of Latin America.) The first Intifada reduced desireability of Palestinian workers which harmed their economy in addition to the fact that that's what lead to the instalation of security checkpoints in many places.
Conversely, the few times when the Palestinians have reached out for peaceful negotiations were the few times when they actually took steps forward instead of back (or at least had the chance to). The Oslo accords lead to the creation of the PA, the first ever government run for and by Palestinians. The Camp David Summit very nearly ended in the birth of a proper state for Palestinians, with 99% of the land requested by Arafat (had Arafat bothered to bring counter offers instead of just saying no to everything, they would likely have a state today.)
Honestly, the number one reason Israel doesn't give them the land is the fear of creating yet another enemy state right in their backyard. A peaceful Palestinian state would be welcomed by the vast majority of the Israeli electorate, if such a thing were possible. Israel has shown it's willingness to give land (and other things) for nothing more than peace multiple times in the past. But the Palestinian leadership has to be a partner for sustained peace in the way that Egypt, Jordan, the UAE and others have shown to be.
Now, you may ask what the average Palestinian can do about this even if he wants peace. That's true about most citizens of every country in the world. You and I also don't have the ability to personally stear the policies of our respective countries (unless one of you is a politician or something). But the people as a whole has to elevate at least one peace loving leader to make this possible.
And seriously. If the Palestinians had a leader like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, or Mandela, world opinion wouldn't be split on this topic right now. And Israel would sit him down at the negotiating table and give him a nice plot of land, because Israel would love to have a peaceful neighbor and less problems to worry about more than anyone.
I'm not saying that such a leader coming forth is realistic, but if it did, it absolutely would be good for the Palestinian cause. Immeasurably more so than any violent option.
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On November 29 2023 10:05 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 09:22 Mohdoo wrote:On November 29 2023 08:36 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdfIgnoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits. On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point. You are totally correct in pointing out there are plenty of examples of unethical behavior and that this behavior creates anger that is then used to recruit and whatnot. However, even if we assume Israel decided to give Palestinians every demand they could ever ask for, it is worth remembering any progress that would be made would take an extremely long time. It would take years, if not decades to mend relations between Jews and Palestinians. Keep in mind this tension is not between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between a wide range of countries in the middle east and Jews as a whole. After the formation of Israel in 1948, many different Muslim nations widely utilized collective punishment against Jews with no relation to anything happening in Israel. So just to reiterate, yes, you are totally right that Israel would be able to reduce hatred of Jews by discontinuing their settlements efforts. But it is worth keeping in mind these tensions would never go away overnight. This would be a long journey. Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas. If Iran and Qatar are declining to disarm Hamas internally, no one should pretend they are surprised when Israel uses military force to remove Hamas from power. The war between Hamas and Israel is a tragedy for the world, but it is indeed a war. Asking Israeli civilians to just embrace danger as an olive branch to repair relations of the course of many years isn't reasonable. Just like how Palestinian civilians have no guilt in this situation, neither do Israeli civilians. You'll notice a key difference between 'many different Muslim nations' and Palestinians: the ones that aren't being ethnically cleansed aren't sending terrorists and suicide bombers into Israel. + Show Spoiler +There is nothing particularly surprising about Israel supposedly wanting to remove Hamas from power after the October attack (even though they themselves helped Hamas to get into position of power to begin with). But their desire to remove Hamas from power is not a blank cheque to kill however many civilians they deem necessary to achieve their goals, not to mention that they don't seem to have any realistic plan that would have any real chance of actually achieving the said goal. If safety of Israelis was their true primary concern, they'd be seeking to de-escalate tensions and reduce radicalization rather than grabbing as much land as they can possibly get away with in the West Bank and discussing mass deportations from the Gaza Strip.
Hezbollah has been attacking Israel on the regular for the past month or so. The Houthis have been firing rockets and capturing ships they think are Israeli. The Houthi slogan that they connect to their flag is "Allah is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam." Iran has it's students recite death to America and Israel in schools and pours tons of money and resources into any group who will attack Israel. Are you suggesting that Israel ethnically cleansed these groups?
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On November 28 2023 23:57 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 19:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things.
Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies. We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default. We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies. A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with. You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view. I do not believe that they will be given a fair opportunity. I like the just love approach. I was very excited to see how Mexico's hugs not bombs approach would work. Spoiler is that it didn't work well at all. The cartels just took more and there were some atrocities (much smaller than Oct7th) which created a political situation where the people demanded the police and military do something. Hamas is more powerful within Gaza than the Cartels are in Mexico, they are the government. They are the ones choosing the education and it is a education of hate where they are taught how evil outsiders are and it is their religious duty to kill them all. An earlier point you made I agree with which is about how the extreme power imbalance makes the existential fear of being wiped not the most realistic fear. However, I do not know how realistic unfearful you can be when a group just committed the worst mass murder (zero military targets) and it was celebrated with the promise of more. You have the US as a very shaky ally especially in the time of Trump where he is one oil deal from switching sides or even one wrong comment from a Jewish celebrity. + Show Spoiler +I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression?
The problem with this reasoning is that, if the same approach doesn't work for Israel against Hamas, then how would it work for Palestinians against the Israeli administration? If it doesn't work one way, then how would it work in the opposite direction?
This essentially explains why Palestinians have no path out of their oppression. And if they have no path, then we can understand why there can only be a path of escalating violence. Israelis aren't treating Palestinians with dignity and respect, so then how can we expect Palestinians to treat Israelis with dignity and respect?
The existence of Hamas can be explained by the impossibilities presented by Israel. I'd also like to say that drug cartels don't exist in a vacuum either. I like to give the example of Capone, who's eventual reign and terror was fueled by the government's prohibition policies. He grew powerful because people had no way out of the impossibility presented by the government. Drug cartels are of the same nature, they exist because there's a government that presents only impossibilities. As drugs become more freely accessible to the public, and drug distribution therefore becomes more a matter of the marketplace, that effectively puts many drug lords out of business unless they participate in the same market, now legally. They're incentivized to enrich themselves through legal means. This is how we know that the war on drugs enables and effectively creates drug cartels. It's because demand doesn't just magically disappear. + Show Spoiler +
Hamas might well be another consequence of the impossibility presented by Israel. What alternative do Palestinians realistically have? Where's the path out of their oppression?
Mexico's drug cartels are actually a decent parallel to Hamas. The cartels are effectively the fault of a foreign nation. Namely, America. Americans pay lots of money for drugs, thus funding the cartels. Yet, the government of America demands that Mexico keep fighting them in an endless war on drugs rather than just legalizing the substances and letting everyone have peace.
So too, Hamas, is effectively the fault of foreign nations. Iran and Qatar most recently (and other nations in the past) fund violent extremist groups among the Palestinians and refuse to allow them to make real peace with Israel. It's not a perfect parallel since the funders are putting pressure on Hamas rather than Israel here, but the fact that foreign nations are the ones fostering the scenario of conflict remains the same.
Admittedly, this is a major stumbling block to fixing Gaza even if Israel does remove Hamas.
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United States42252 Posts
On November 29 2023 13:21 Cerebrate1 wrote:
And seriously. If the Palestinians had a leader like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, or Mandela, world opinion wouldn't be split on this topic right now. And Israel would sit him down at the negotiating table and give him a nice plot of land, because Israel would love to have a peaceful neighbor and less problems to worry about more than anyone.
I'm not saying that such a leader coming forth is realistic, but if it did, it absolutely would be good for the Palestinian cause. Immeasurably more so than any violent option.
This is pure fantasy. Firstly, I think you’ve got a very mistaken idea of how radical the people you listed were. They didn’t simply ask nicely and win the men with guns over with the raw power of pacifism. Hell, MLK was murdered by the men with guns and his message was buried with him. Secondly, it solves nothing. Are Palestinians going to be allowed to move back onto their grandfather’s land? Will Israelis give up their lands simply because Palestinian Ghandi asked for it? Because if not they will remain in a perpetual state of intergenerational refugees. And how much land will they give up? How much of India did Ghandi allow Britain to keep?
They’re not fighting because they’re too stupid to try asking nicely. This revelation you’ve had is nonsense. They’re fighting because they feel that is all that remains.
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In addition to what kwark said, Arafat was a pretty decent leader. Maybe not a once-in-a-generation figure who captures the global imagination of what a leader should be, as Ghandi and Mandela did, but someone the Palestinians and Israeli both listened to, and who had left armed insurgency behind in the hope of forging lasting peace. In hindsight, that did not work out.
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On November 29 2023 13:28 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 10:05 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 09:22 Mohdoo wrote:On November 29 2023 08:36 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdfIgnoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits. On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point. You are totally correct in pointing out there are plenty of examples of unethical behavior and that this behavior creates anger that is then used to recruit and whatnot. However, even if we assume Israel decided to give Palestinians every demand they could ever ask for, it is worth remembering any progress that would be made would take an extremely long time. It would take years, if not decades to mend relations between Jews and Palestinians. Keep in mind this tension is not between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between a wide range of countries in the middle east and Jews as a whole. After the formation of Israel in 1948, many different Muslim nations widely utilized collective punishment against Jews with no relation to anything happening in Israel. So just to reiterate, yes, you are totally right that Israel would be able to reduce hatred of Jews by discontinuing their settlements efforts. But it is worth keeping in mind these tensions would never go away overnight. This would be a long journey. Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas. If Iran and Qatar are declining to disarm Hamas internally, no one should pretend they are surprised when Israel uses military force to remove Hamas from power. The war between Hamas and Israel is a tragedy for the world, but it is indeed a war. Asking Israeli civilians to just embrace danger as an olive branch to repair relations of the course of many years isn't reasonable. Just like how Palestinian civilians have no guilt in this situation, neither do Israeli civilians. You'll notice a key difference between 'many different Muslim nations' and Palestinians: the ones that aren't being ethnically cleansed aren't sending terrorists and suicide bombers into Israel. + Show Spoiler +There is nothing particularly surprising about Israel supposedly wanting to remove Hamas from power after the October attack (even though they themselves helped Hamas to get into position of power to begin with). But their desire to remove Hamas from power is not a blank cheque to kill however many civilians they deem necessary to achieve their goals, not to mention that they don't seem to have any realistic plan that would have any real chance of actually achieving the said goal. If safety of Israelis was their true primary concern, they'd be seeking to de-escalate tensions and reduce radicalization rather than grabbing as much land as they can possibly get away with in the West Bank and discussing mass deportations from the Gaza Strip. Hezbollah has been attacking Israel on the regular for the past month or so. The Houthis have been firing rockets and capturing ships they think are Israeli. The Houthi slogan that they connect to their flag is "Allah is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam." Iran has it's students recite death to America and Israel in schools and pours tons of money and resources into any group who will attack Israel. Are you suggesting that Israel ethnically cleansed these groups?
Yes, thanks for proving my point. The two groups that have suffered in conflicts with the US and its allies in the region are also the ones most openly hostile to the US and their biggest ally Israel. It's almost as if violence begets violence and it has very little to do with Islam's supposed hatred of Jews.
And you'll notice that despite their rather intense dislike of Israel, Hezbollah doesn't usually send suicide bombers or their equivalent with guns -- because for all their hatreds, they still have homes and families to go back to.
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On November 29 2023 09:22 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 08:36 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdfIgnoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits. On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point. You are totally correct in pointing out there are plenty of examples of unethical behavior and that this behavior creates anger that is then used to recruit and whatnot. However, even if we assume Israel decided to give Palestinians every demand they could ever ask for, it is worth remembering any progress that would be made would take an extremely long time. It would take years, if not decades to mend relations between Jews and Palestinians. Keep in mind this tension is not between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between a wide range of countries in the middle east and Jews as a whole. After the formation of Israel in 1948, many different Muslim nations widely utilized collective punishment against Jews with no relation to anything happening in Israel. So just to reiterate, yes, you are totally right that Israel would be able to reduce hatred of Jews by discontinuing their settlements efforts. But it is worth keeping in mind these tensions would never go away overnight. This would be a long journey. Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas. If Iran and Qatar are declining to disarm Hamas internally, no one should pretend they are surprised when Israel uses military force to remove Hamas from power. The war between Hamas and Israel is a tragedy for the world, but it is indeed a war. Asking Israeli civilians to just embrace danger as an olive branch to repair relations of the course of many years isn't reasonable. Just like how Palestinian civilians have no guilt in this situation, neither do Israeli civilians.
"Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas."
Asking Palestinian civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with terrorist attacks, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of IDF.
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On November 29 2023 13:21 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 23:57 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 19:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop.
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies. We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default. We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies. A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with. You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view. I do not believe that they will be given a fair opportunity. I like the just love approach. I was very excited to see how Mexico's hugs not bombs approach would work. Spoiler is that it didn't work well at all. The cartels just took more and there were some atrocities (much smaller than Oct7th) which created a political situation where the people demanded the police and military do something. Hamas is more powerful within Gaza than the Cartels are in Mexico, they are the government. They are the ones choosing the education and it is a education of hate where they are taught how evil outsiders are and it is their religious duty to kill them all. An earlier point you made I agree with which is about how the extreme power imbalance makes the existential fear of being wiped not the most realistic fear. However, I do not know how realistic unfearful you can be when a group just committed the worst mass murder (zero military targets) and it was celebrated with the promise of more. You have the US as a very shaky ally especially in the time of Trump where he is one oil deal from switching sides or even one wrong comment from a Jewish celebrity. I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression? Well actually, yes. I can point to multiple points in history where, if they had chosen peace over war, they would be in a significantly better position than they became otherwise: 1948: If they had peacefully accepted the UN proposed partition plan instead of going to war, they would currently have the borders outlined in that plan. Those borders (and the peace that might have followed) are better than any plan that is realistically put forward by anyone today. 1967: If they had peacefully accepted the status quo, they would have territory everywhere outside the "Green Line" that they are trying to get back to now. There were no blockades or even any Israeli control anywhere outside of that line. They would have been part of Egypt and Jordan, but PLO's founding documents say that the goal was to leave Gaza and the West Bank under Egyptian and Jordanian control, so they clearly weren't bothered by that factor. 1987: Palestinians outside the Green Line had, on average, better earnings and living conditions than Arabs in other states in the Middle East. Providing an immigrant workforce for a more developed country is pretty good for your economy and tons of workers worked in Israel proper. (See also, Mexico being next to the US and it's resultant econmic superiority over most of Latin America.) The first Intifada reduced desireability of Palestinian workers which harmed their economy in addition to the fact that that's what lead to the instalation of security checkpoints in many places. Conversely, the few times when the Palestinians have reached out for peaceful negotiations were the few times when they actually took steps forward instead of back (or at least had the chance to). The Oslo accords lead to the creation of the PA, the first ever government run for and by Palestinians. The Camp David Summit very nearly ended in the birth of a proper state for Palestinians, with 99% of the land requested by Arafat (had Arafat bothered to bring counter offers instead of just saying no to everything, they would likely have a state today.) Honestly, the number one reason Israel doesn't give them the land is the fear of creating yet another enemy state right in their backyard. A peaceful Palestinian state would be welcomed by the vast majority of the Israeli electorate, if such a thing were possible. Israel has shown it's willingness to give land (and other things) for nothing more than peace multiple times in the past. But the Palestinian leadership has to be a partner for sustained peace in the way that Egypt, Jordan, the UAE and others have shown to be. Now, you may ask what the average Palestinian can do about this even if he wants peace. That's true about most citizens of every country in the world. You and I also don't have the ability to personally stear the policies of our respective countries (unless one of you is a politician or something). But the people as a whole has to elevate at least one peace loving leader to make this possible. And seriously. If the Palestinians had a leader like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, or Mandela, world opinion wouldn't be split on this topic right now. And Israel would sit him down at the negotiating table and give him a nice plot of land, because Israel would love to have a peaceful neighbor and less problems to worry about more than anyone. I'm not saying that such a leader coming forth is realistic, but if it did, it absolutely would be good for the Palestinian cause. Immeasurably more so than any violent option.
Palestinians didn't "go to war" in 1948, that's strictly not true. You're making that up. In reality it was an escalation on both sides. Jews came out victorious during that conflict, which was in part because of the favoritism that British occupying forces displayed towards Jewish settlements.
The tensions resulted from actions on both sides, Jewish and Palestinian. There was no "one bad side" and "one good side".
Furthermore, Palestinians had every right to reject the UN partition plan because it was inherently injust for the local Palestinian population. Many had been displaced by Jewish people under the watchful eye of British forces. And as we know with hindsight, more and more land was then taken away from Palestinians immediately as soon as the Zionist takeover had come to fruition. No two state solution was ever brought forward again by the Zionist leadership, as now they had no more need to negotiate. This proves the Palestinian resistance right that they were simply up against yet another occpying force, and not a benevolent group of migrants.
I could dismantle the rest of your arguments, too. They're all equally biased and wrong. You're rewriting history, none of what you say is true.
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On November 30 2023 00:18 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 18:28 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 13:28 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 29 2023 10:05 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 09:22 Mohdoo wrote:On November 29 2023 08:36 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdfIgnoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits. On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point. You are totally correct in pointing out there are plenty of examples of unethical behavior and that this behavior creates anger that is then used to recruit and whatnot. However, even if we assume Israel decided to give Palestinians every demand they could ever ask for, it is worth remembering any progress that would be made would take an extremely long time. It would take years, if not decades to mend relations between Jews and Palestinians. Keep in mind this tension is not between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between a wide range of countries in the middle east and Jews as a whole. After the formation of Israel in 1948, many different Muslim nations widely utilized collective punishment against Jews with no relation to anything happening in Israel. So just to reiterate, yes, you are totally right that Israel would be able to reduce hatred of Jews by discontinuing their settlements efforts. But it is worth keeping in mind these tensions would never go away overnight. This would be a long journey. Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas. If Iran and Qatar are declining to disarm Hamas internally, no one should pretend they are surprised when Israel uses military force to remove Hamas from power. The war between Hamas and Israel is a tragedy for the world, but it is indeed a war. Asking Israeli civilians to just embrace danger as an olive branch to repair relations of the course of many years isn't reasonable. Just like how Palestinian civilians have no guilt in this situation, neither do Israeli civilians. You'll notice a key difference between 'many different Muslim nations' and Palestinians: the ones that aren't being ethnically cleansed aren't sending terrorists and suicide bombers into Israel. + Show Spoiler +There is nothing particularly surprising about Israel supposedly wanting to remove Hamas from power after the October attack (even though they themselves helped Hamas to get into position of power to begin with). But their desire to remove Hamas from power is not a blank cheque to kill however many civilians they deem necessary to achieve their goals, not to mention that they don't seem to have any realistic plan that would have any real chance of actually achieving the said goal. If safety of Israelis was their true primary concern, they'd be seeking to de-escalate tensions and reduce radicalization rather than grabbing as much land as they can possibly get away with in the West Bank and discussing mass deportations from the Gaza Strip. Hezbollah has been attacking Israel on the regular for the past month or so. The Houthis have been firing rockets and capturing ships they think are Israeli. The Houthi slogan that they connect to their flag is "Allah is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam." Iran has it's students recite death to America and Israel in schools and pours tons of money and resources into any group who will attack Israel. Are you suggesting that Israel ethnically cleansed these groups? Yes, thanks for proving my point. The two groups that have suffered in conflicts with the US and its allies in the region are also the ones most openly hostile to the US and their biggest ally Israel. It's almost as if violence begets violence and it has very little to do with Islam's supposed hatred of Jews. And you'll notice that despite their rather intense dislike of Israel, Hezbollah doesn't usually send suicide bombers or their equivalent with guns -- because for all their hatreds, they still have homes and families to go back to. Is this you working from your conclusion backwards with what sounds right to you? Or do you have some sources? Lebanese people have a much more negative outlook on their situation than those in Palestinian Territory and has been that way for quite a long time. Also, any source on the comparative amount of deaths fighting their "war" pre Oct 7th? I also doubt that assumption you made based on your history of boldly stating your assumptions as facts to win internet arguments. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2013/05/23/economies-of-emerging-markets-better-rated-during-difficult-times/https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/10/09/emerging-and-developing-economies-much-more-optimistic-than-rich-countries-about-the-future/#at-home
Lebanese people have an internationally recognized government and borders that are (mostly) respected by their neighbors. People living in Lebanon don't have to worry about bulldozers coming in to evict them. Even if their lives are crappy, they'd (rightly) blame their government or themselves for said crappiness of their lives. Palestine -- and especially Gaza, which is the chief source of radical terrorists these days -- do not usually blame their government. They could of course blame Hamas, but Israel makes it very easy to redirect any grievances Palestinian people might have had with their leaders to Israel instead.
Also, statistics are a fickle thing, especially so when it comes to topics like life satisfaction. Not to mention that even according to your own links, Lebanese people do not in fact have a 'much more negative' outlook on their situation than those in Palestine. The most interesting / relevant question in that survey is 'better future for next generation?' and both Palestine and Lebanon had virtually identical piss poor responses to that. The timing of the survey was pretty fortunate, too, given that 'protective edge' took place mere months after the quizzes were carried out and would most likely affect the answers also.
And it's very rich of you to accuse me of presenting assumptions as facts, given your last post was complete and utter bullshit.
Speaking of 'winning arguments', what are you even trying to prove here? Like, what is your actual 'argument'?
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On November 29 2023 18:28 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 13:28 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 29 2023 10:05 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 09:22 Mohdoo wrote:On November 29 2023 08:36 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdfIgnoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits. On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point. You are totally correct in pointing out there are plenty of examples of unethical behavior and that this behavior creates anger that is then used to recruit and whatnot. However, even if we assume Israel decided to give Palestinians every demand they could ever ask for, it is worth remembering any progress that would be made would take an extremely long time. It would take years, if not decades to mend relations between Jews and Palestinians. Keep in mind this tension is not between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between a wide range of countries in the middle east and Jews as a whole. After the formation of Israel in 1948, many different Muslim nations widely utilized collective punishment against Jews with no relation to anything happening in Israel. So just to reiterate, yes, you are totally right that Israel would be able to reduce hatred of Jews by discontinuing their settlements efforts. But it is worth keeping in mind these tensions would never go away overnight. This would be a long journey. Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas. If Iran and Qatar are declining to disarm Hamas internally, no one should pretend they are surprised when Israel uses military force to remove Hamas from power. The war between Hamas and Israel is a tragedy for the world, but it is indeed a war. Asking Israeli civilians to just embrace danger as an olive branch to repair relations of the course of many years isn't reasonable. Just like how Palestinian civilians have no guilt in this situation, neither do Israeli civilians. You'll notice a key difference between 'many different Muslim nations' and Palestinians: the ones that aren't being ethnically cleansed aren't sending terrorists and suicide bombers into Israel. + Show Spoiler +There is nothing particularly surprising about Israel supposedly wanting to remove Hamas from power after the October attack (even though they themselves helped Hamas to get into position of power to begin with). But their desire to remove Hamas from power is not a blank cheque to kill however many civilians they deem necessary to achieve their goals, not to mention that they don't seem to have any realistic plan that would have any real chance of actually achieving the said goal. If safety of Israelis was their true primary concern, they'd be seeking to de-escalate tensions and reduce radicalization rather than grabbing as much land as they can possibly get away with in the West Bank and discussing mass deportations from the Gaza Strip. Hezbollah has been attacking Israel on the regular for the past month or so. The Houthis have been firing rockets and capturing ships they think are Israeli. The Houthi slogan that they connect to their flag is "Allah is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam." Iran has it's students recite death to America and Israel in schools and pours tons of money and resources into any group who will attack Israel. Are you suggesting that Israel ethnically cleansed these groups? Yes, thanks for proving my point. The two groups that have suffered in conflicts with the US and its allies in the region are also the ones most openly hostile to the US and their biggest ally Israel. It's almost as if violence begets violence and it has very little to do with Islam's supposed hatred of Jews. And you'll notice that despite their rather intense dislike of Israel, Hezbollah doesn't usually send suicide bombers or their equivalent with guns -- because for all their hatreds, they still have homes and families to go back to.
So your point is that Saudi Arabia (who hasn't even normalized relations with Israel) bombing the Houthis provides legitimate rationalization for the Houthis to have an undying hatred towards Israel and all Jews and do whatever they can to harm them?
And America assisting regime change in Iran provides legitimate reason for Iran to hate and attack Israel in a similar manner to the Houthis?
Since America defeated the Germans in World War 2, should Germany also go to war with Israel? Since India had border disputes with China (and India trades with Israel), should China go to war with Israel?
You seem overeager to have Israel specifically foot the bill for things that don't even really relate to them.
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On November 30 2023 09:47 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2023 08:35 Salazarz wrote:On November 30 2023 00:18 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 18:28 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 13:28 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 29 2023 10:05 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 09:22 Mohdoo wrote:On November 29 2023 08:36 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdfIgnoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits. On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point. You are totally correct in pointing out there are plenty of examples of unethical behavior and that this behavior creates anger that is then used to recruit and whatnot. However, even if we assume Israel decided to give Palestinians every demand they could ever ask for, it is worth remembering any progress that would be made would take an extremely long time. It would take years, if not decades to mend relations between Jews and Palestinians. Keep in mind this tension is not between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between a wide range of countries in the middle east and Jews as a whole. After the formation of Israel in 1948, many different Muslim nations widely utilized collective punishment against Jews with no relation to anything happening in Israel. So just to reiterate, yes, you are totally right that Israel would be able to reduce hatred of Jews by discontinuing their settlements efforts. But it is worth keeping in mind these tensions would never go away overnight. This would be a long journey. Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas. If Iran and Qatar are declining to disarm Hamas internally, no one should pretend they are surprised when Israel uses military force to remove Hamas from power. The war between Hamas and Israel is a tragedy for the world, but it is indeed a war. Asking Israeli civilians to just embrace danger as an olive branch to repair relations of the course of many years isn't reasonable. Just like how Palestinian civilians have no guilt in this situation, neither do Israeli civilians. You'll notice a key difference between 'many different Muslim nations' and Palestinians: the ones that aren't being ethnically cleansed aren't sending terrorists and suicide bombers into Israel. + Show Spoiler +There is nothing particularly surprising about Israel supposedly wanting to remove Hamas from power after the October attack (even though they themselves helped Hamas to get into position of power to begin with). But their desire to remove Hamas from power is not a blank cheque to kill however many civilians they deem necessary to achieve their goals, not to mention that they don't seem to have any realistic plan that would have any real chance of actually achieving the said goal. If safety of Israelis was their true primary concern, they'd be seeking to de-escalate tensions and reduce radicalization rather than grabbing as much land as they can possibly get away with in the West Bank and discussing mass deportations from the Gaza Strip. Hezbollah has been attacking Israel on the regular for the past month or so. The Houthis have been firing rockets and capturing ships they think are Israeli. The Houthi slogan that they connect to their flag is "Allah is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam." Iran has it's students recite death to America and Israel in schools and pours tons of money and resources into any group who will attack Israel. Are you suggesting that Israel ethnically cleansed these groups? Yes, thanks for proving my point. The two groups that have suffered in conflicts with the US and its allies in the region are also the ones most openly hostile to the US and their biggest ally Israel. It's almost as if violence begets violence and it has very little to do with Islam's supposed hatred of Jews. And you'll notice that despite their rather intense dislike of Israel, Hezbollah doesn't usually send suicide bombers or their equivalent with guns -- because for all their hatreds, they still have homes and families to go back to. Is this you working from your conclusion backwards with what sounds right to you? Or do you have some sources? Lebanese people have a much more negative outlook on their situation than those in Palestinian Territory and has been that way for quite a long time. Also, any source on the comparative amount of deaths fighting their "war" pre Oct 7th? I also doubt that assumption you made based on your history of boldly stating your assumptions as facts to win internet arguments. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2013/05/23/economies-of-emerging-markets-better-rated-during-difficult-times/https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/10/09/emerging-and-developing-economies-much-more-optimistic-than-rich-countries-about-the-future/#at-home Lebanese people have an internationally recognized government and borders that are (mostly) respected by their neighbors. People living in Lebanon don't have to worry about bulldozers coming in to evict them. Even if their lives are crappy, they'd (rightly) blame their government or themselves for said crappiness of their lives. Palestine -- and especially Gaza, which is the chief source of radical terrorists these days -- do not usually blame their government. They could of course blame Hamas, but Israel makes it very easy to redirect any grievances Palestinian people might have had with their leaders to Israel instead. Also, statistics are a fickle thing, especially so when it comes to topics like life satisfaction. Not to mention that even according to your own links, Lebanese people do not in fact have a 'much more negative' outlook on their situation than those in Palestine. The most interesting / relevant question in that survey is 'better future for next generation?' and both Palestine and Lebanon had virtually identical piss poor responses to that. The timing of the survey was pretty fortunate, too, given that 'protective edge' took place mere months after the quizzes were carried out and would most likely affect the answers also. And it's very rich of you to accuse me of presenting assumptions as facts, given your last post was complete and utter bullshit. Speaking of 'winning arguments', what are you even trying to prove here? Like, what is your actual 'argument'? So no source, just the way you feel which makes it a fact. Like have you even looked into if there is more? You have assumptions piled on each other with 0 fact checking and with actual information on any of them and it could even change your version of logic.
Source for what? Looked into what? More of what? What are these assumptions you keep complaining about, that people who are bombed and shot on a near daily basis are easy to radicalize? That's not really an assumption, it's a pretty obvious observation; and it's not as if Palestine is the first place where oppression gives rise to a radically violent resistance movement.
Depends on what we’re talking about. I’ve been clear each time. Lots of times it is just fact checking the crazy ranting which then someone like you (or often you) acts as if that means I have the completely opposite position and then makes some dumb mic drop
So you don't even have a point, you're just arguing for the sake of being contrarian or what? And what exactly are you fact checking? Palestinians having freedom of movement is a real cool example of fact checks, right. Good on you bringing clarity and truth to this discussion, buddy. What else have you fact checked exactly? All I'm seeing are countless accusations of people being 'dishonest', people being 'antisemitic', people being this or that without any real point and using comparisons that just get dumber and dumber with each passing day, like Hamas being literally Nazis, Palestine being actually not that oppressed compared to some Soviet state or whatever, Palestinians actually enjoying their life more than Lebanese people do (seriously, what a fucking take that is), yadda yadda. Like, what are you trying to prove here?
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On November 30 2023 10:23 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 18:28 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 13:28 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 29 2023 10:05 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 09:22 Mohdoo wrote:On November 29 2023 08:36 Salazarz wrote:On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany. https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdfIgnoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits. On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point. You are totally correct in pointing out there are plenty of examples of unethical behavior and that this behavior creates anger that is then used to recruit and whatnot. However, even if we assume Israel decided to give Palestinians every demand they could ever ask for, it is worth remembering any progress that would be made would take an extremely long time. It would take years, if not decades to mend relations between Jews and Palestinians. Keep in mind this tension is not between Israelis and Palestinians. It is between a wide range of countries in the middle east and Jews as a whole. After the formation of Israel in 1948, many different Muslim nations widely utilized collective punishment against Jews with no relation to anything happening in Israel. So just to reiterate, yes, you are totally right that Israel would be able to reduce hatred of Jews by discontinuing their settlements efforts. But it is worth keeping in mind these tensions would never go away overnight. This would be a long journey. Asking Israeli civilians who had nothing to do with 1948, have nothing to do with settlements, or anything else, should not be told to just accept the dangers of Hamas. If Iran and Qatar are declining to disarm Hamas internally, no one should pretend they are surprised when Israel uses military force to remove Hamas from power. The war between Hamas and Israel is a tragedy for the world, but it is indeed a war. Asking Israeli civilians to just embrace danger as an olive branch to repair relations of the course of many years isn't reasonable. Just like how Palestinian civilians have no guilt in this situation, neither do Israeli civilians. You'll notice a key difference between 'many different Muslim nations' and Palestinians: the ones that aren't being ethnically cleansed aren't sending terrorists and suicide bombers into Israel. + Show Spoiler +There is nothing particularly surprising about Israel supposedly wanting to remove Hamas from power after the October attack (even though they themselves helped Hamas to get into position of power to begin with). But their desire to remove Hamas from power is not a blank cheque to kill however many civilians they deem necessary to achieve their goals, not to mention that they don't seem to have any realistic plan that would have any real chance of actually achieving the said goal. If safety of Israelis was their true primary concern, they'd be seeking to de-escalate tensions and reduce radicalization rather than grabbing as much land as they can possibly get away with in the West Bank and discussing mass deportations from the Gaza Strip. Hezbollah has been attacking Israel on the regular for the past month or so. The Houthis have been firing rockets and capturing ships they think are Israeli. The Houthi slogan that they connect to their flag is "Allah is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam." Iran has it's students recite death to America and Israel in schools and pours tons of money and resources into any group who will attack Israel. Are you suggesting that Israel ethnically cleansed these groups? Yes, thanks for proving my point. The two groups that have suffered in conflicts with the US and its allies in the region are also the ones most openly hostile to the US and their biggest ally Israel. It's almost as if violence begets violence and it has very little to do with Islam's supposed hatred of Jews. And you'll notice that despite their rather intense dislike of Israel, Hezbollah doesn't usually send suicide bombers or their equivalent with guns -- because for all their hatreds, they still have homes and families to go back to. So your point is that Saudi Arabia (who hasn't even normalized relations with Israel) bombing the Houthis provides legitimate rationalization for the Houthis to have an undying hatred towards Israel and all Jews and do whatever they can to harm them? And America assisting regime change in Iran provides legitimate reason for Iran to hate and attack Israel in a similar manner to the Houthis? Since America defeated the Germans in World War 2, should Germany also go to war with Israel? Since India had border disputes with China (and India trades with Israel), should China go to war with Israel? You seem overeager to have Israel specifically foot the bill for things that don't even really relate to them.
Whatever do you think the word 'legitimate' means? Houthis hate the Saudis and the US, and I don't think it's such a stretch that they would hate the Israelis by association. Honestly, I'm not sure what the deal is with Houthis attacking these boats, and I think (and certainly hope!) that it won't go much further than that.
As for Iran, do you seriously think that the US assisting regime change there is their only grievance? Did you forget about the Iraq-Iran war? Or the attempted regime changes in Lebanon and Syria? Or, stepping away from the US, the various cloak and dagger moves that Israel has pulled against Iran?
I'm going to ignore your second to last paragraph because that shit is just dumb, and as for Israel footing the bill... well, I don't particularly like the fact that Hezbollah is attacking Israel, or that Iran is sponsoring Hezbollah. If it were up to me, I'd love to have them all sit around a fire holding hands and singing koombayah. But it's not as if Israel has never done anything to piss the Iranians off. They're regional rivals and they take shots at each other whenever they can. It sucks, but I mean, I don't really see how that justifies Israel killing and colonizing Palestine?
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On November 30 2023 12:25 JimmiC wrote:I really do not understand why Israel is treated as the bad guy in the region by leftists. Everything leftists care about (women’s rights, lgbtq2+rights, child rights, abortion rights, environmentalism, multiculturalism, democracy so on) Israel is MILES and MILES ahead on. I get the bar is super low in that part of the world but what is with the extreme hate? Is it as simple as America supported them and therefore they must be bad, end critical thinking? Like do people realize that it is not extreme beliefs in that area to want to kill all Jews, all homosexuals, anyone who has an abortion, any women who has an affair (or in some cases is raped), are in favour of having young women circumcised, forced marriage for girls, and many many other awful things. These are not good guys forced into evil by a bad situation. They believe the opposite of what we believe is right, hell their evil would make the Nazis blush. Their main strategy is to maximize civilian causalities for BOTH sides. They do not deserve the benefit or trust. I get the people all the way down the rabbit hole who are some how anti Ukraine as well. But for those people who are not guzzling down the Russian propaganda, Iran is supporting Russia, AND Hamas is their proxy army. Do you really believe they are fighting Israel for the freedom of Palestinians? They hate freedom! + Show Spoiler +Before I get yelled at, this does not mean you can criticize Israel just do it about the things they are actually doing and without always assuming the worst intentions without facts to back it up
I thought you don't like ranting and mic drops. What else is this post supposed to be, other than a rant against a bunch of strawmen you've built in your angry mind?
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EPT
