Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 130

On November 30 2023 14:15 Cerebrate1 wrote:

I didn't explain precisely what those leaders did, so I'm not sure what mistake you saw that needed correcting here. They promoted non-violent methods of protest. Those methods worked. I'm suggesting that similar methods (feel free to speak out the historical specifics if you like) would work here too.


I don't personally consider self determination and a state nothing. That would solve most of the major issues Pro-Palestinians are concerned with by itself.


Israel is pretty desperate for nearby friends, they usually settle for countries who will even be willing to just not attack them. They gave Egypt the oil rich Sinai Peninsula (more land than the rest of Israel combined) for an agreement than Egypt would just stop attacking them. The West Bank and Gaza are a major pain in the butt for them financially, militarily, and politically. If they had reasonable assurances that those places would be friendly (or even just neutral) towards them, the vast majority of the war weary Israeli electorate would happily hand over the keys.

Probably to around the 1967 borders with some adjustments, as multiple offers have indicated.

The Palestinian may feel this way, sure. I wasn't posting to tell them what they should feel. I was posting to explain what would be strategically advantageous for their cause. I did say that them following my suggestion was unlikely. That feeling may be part of the reason why it's unlikely. It doesn't make it a bad idea, if they were able to overcome their feelings and do it.

This is not some novel revelation of mine. Golda Meir said it decades ago “If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more ‎violence. If the Jews put ‎down their weapons ‎today, there would be no ‎more Israel." Not to mention, the nonviolent protest idea was implemented successfully by leaders (Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela) in locations around the world. The fact that you are surprised by the suggestion of non-violent Palestinian protest is actually a really sad commentary on the situation in general.

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I'm separating these other parts of your post because they have less to do with the point of my post and more to do with other points that we happen to also disagree on.

That's not really a reasonable comparison. England was an imperial power whose people lived half a world away and just had some companies and soldiers in India. Israel's population base is in Israel and nowhere else. They can't just pull out the troops and fly back to Israel. They are already in Israel and they have nowhere to retreat to.

I'm not sure that that is a reasonable request at this point and it would upturn world society if we followed the logic to it's conclusion. Should some guy living in Wisconsin be able to take over the private house of some guy living in Tel Aviv because his grandfather lived nearby 70 years ago? I don't think Native Americans should be able to go up to anyone's house in America and take it because their grandparent lived there. Nor the Aboriginals in Australia. Nor the First Peoples in Canada. The people who live there now didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't be punished for something done by someone they probably didn't even know in ages gone by.

And no modern government offers such things, even though many have displaced peoples in the past. The morally elevated nations who feel guilt for the past actions of their country do give reparations in other ways. Germany gives monetary payouts to holocaust survivors. America and Canada give tax and educational benefits to descendants of natives. But literally no one let's them take back their old house decades later, after it's changed hands multiple times. Certainly not for people who didn't even live there themselves.

(Edit: I could hear the idea of Palestinians requesting monetary compensation from Israel btw. I personally feel that the surrounding Arab nations are more at fault for their plight and that they should be the ones paying, but at least that sort of request would be within the realm of things real countries actually do, rather than a unique standard applied to Israel and no one else.)

The intergenerational refugee status is a weird thing because it's an artificial creation unique to this conflict. In WW2, there were over 40 million displaced persons (according to Wikipedia). The whole of Europe was in upheaval and people had to flee as armies moved through and the borders of many countries were redrawn. Those people moved to new places, made a life for themselves, and stopped being refugees. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks displaced from Turkey didn't move back to Turkey to stop being refugees. Hundreds of thousands of Jews didn't have to move back to their various Arab states to stop being refugees. Don't even get me started about where everyone ended up in the Balkans.

In modern times, the Syrian Civil War and the War in Ukraine are currently ongoing and already the refugee problems are diminishing as those people move to new countries and make new homes for themselves. I've met a number from both with jobs in my area.

These situations are tragic for all of these peoples when they are displaced. But why are Palestinians unique that they keep their "refugee" status after they get a new home a job etc? There are Palestinian "refugee camps" that are basically just neighborhoods today. Not tents, but houses. People are dentists and stuff. They aren't on the run anymore. They are so stable they are able and willing to raise families there (not many families are formed when people are running for their lives.)

On November 30 2023 18:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:


I'm not talking about the current invasion of Gaza to stop Hamas, but rather what has been happening in the west bank (not saying there are no terrorists there, but it's not governed by Hamas) for the past decades.

Solving Gaza, right now, is way above my pay grade and I'm not really opining strongly on that, other than 'avoid actions that cause too much human suffering' (which is why I've mostly been firmly arguing against blocking food water electricity and supplies. I also don't really think that bombing locations with both Hamas and civilians solves anything, but it's not a discussion I particularly care about engaging in). The West Bank is different. There, according to this, we have 141 Israeli casualties and 1220 Palestinian casualties since 2008, but only 12 Israeli non-settler non-IDF casualties. These are more managable numbers. (For comparison, the ANC killed 52 civilians between 1976 and 1984).

But like, I just flat out don't believe the 'Israel's hand is forced by Hamas/palestinians' 'If Palestine would just be nice, they'd get to have much larger territory', because as far as I am concerned, this is disproven by the settlers taking more and more territory. This is a trend that has only been increasing over the past years, and one with significant political support. Not in any way arguing that all Israelis support this: For example, here are some opinion pieces/articles in Hareetz by (what I assume are jewish writers) who largely make the same arguments I do:

Data collected by the UN Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reveals that there have been at least 570 attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank this year – an average of three attacks a day

Israeli Settlers and Their Political Allies Are Turning the West Bank Into Apartheid Land
This camp is no longer offended by the word 'apartheid' – in fact it's doing everything it can to make it happen. Meanwhile, former Prime Minister Naftali Bennett might have a new 'brother' as part of his plans to form a new center-right party and unseat Netanyahu's Likud

Settlers Have a Very Effective System for Forcing Palestinians Out of Their Homes
Herding sheep into others' fields, preventing access to water, blocking roads, killing animals and breaking into homes in the middle of the night – these and other tactics are part of the daily terror perpetrated by settlers in Palestinian villages

Israeli Defense Officials Slam Gov't for Harming Efforts to Fight Settlers' Violence

Basically, all this needs to stop, and I can't take Israeli claims that 'everything would be good if Hamas would lay down their arms' seriously until it does.

On November 30 2023 19:21 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate keeps repeating his favorite quote. Time to dismantle it and make sure it can never be used unironically again.
[...]

On November 30 2023 19:53 Magic Powers wrote:


Thanks for letting me know with such clarity that I don't need to take any of your comments seriously. "Most level-headed"... I was getting pissed reading the most recent responses in this thread, but thanks to your hilarious comment I'm in a good mood.

On November 30 2023 19:01 Nebuchad wrote:


Without war crimes

On November 30 2023 19:41 raynpelikoneet wrote:

If you want to turn the discussion from Gaza to west bank, be my guest, but i am not engaging into it for obvious reasons. If you want to talk about situation real or not real in Gaza we can do that.

Afaik atm Israel is not attacking the west bank, are they?

On November 30 2023 20:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:

When you start firing stuff from a hospital, it becomes a military position.
Not a war crime to fire a military position.

On November 30 2023 19:41 raynpelikoneet wrote:

If you want to turn the discussion from Gaza to west bank, be my guest, but i am not engaging into it for obvious reasons. If you want to talk about situation real or not real in Gaza we can do that.

Afaik atm Israel is not attacking the west bank, are they?

On November 30 2023 20:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Wait so...

You guys call it a war crime or "don't care", if someone hits a military outpost? (Or you don't even contest the reality of it being or not being one, just "don't care")? :O

Magic Powers i don't think your reality hits the reality, but... Even if Israel did steal all land from palestine, your thing still doesn't make sense.

On November 30 2023 20:22 Liquid`Drone wrote:


I'm not sure what the obvious reasons is either. Imo, it's highly relevant, because no matter what happens in Gaza, there can be no resolution without the west bank being resolved. Furthermore, the 'atm Israel is not attacking the west bank' isn't really something I can give a clear cut answer to - I think the links I provided would argue that 'actually, they kind of are'.

What exactly do you want to talk about regarding Gaza? I don't care about reiterating arguments I've given before, but a very condensed version of my opinion would be: 1: I understand that Israel feels a need to 'end Hamas'. 2: I think any military action that results in a large number of civilian casualties (which is inevitable, and for my argument it is irrelevant whether that's the fault of Hamas or Israel because I'm not talking about who actually is to blame, here) is going to result in increased hatred of Israel/opposition to Israel, and thus it is counterproductive from the goal of achieving lasting peace, 3: I have opposed elements of how Israel has conducted the invasion/attack, in particular the initial blockade of food/water/electricity/supplies on humanitarian grounds rather than pragmatic grounds.

On November 30 2023 20:24 Nebuchad wrote:
I would like to learn more about the obvious reasons why you're not engaging about the West Bank though.

On November 30 2023 20:24 Nebuchad wrote:
Now you're into another question, which is "Is Israel committing war crimes?", and you've taken a specific example which I don't care about. It is extremely obvious that Israel is committing war crimes, such as for example ethnic cleansing, the Dahiya doctrine, (1) cutting water and gas to Gaza, (2) leveling entire neighborhoods or villages, (3) bombing refugee camps. I do not care to discuss with you whether a specific attack on a (4) hospital can be justified using legalese or not. It is extremely uninteresting to me.
.

On November 30 2023 20:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:

I dont know anything that's happening in West Bank, so i am not engaging it.
Should I?

On November 30 2023 20:53 raynpelikoneet wrote:

1) untrue
2) have they? i bet they have not tbh, let's be real. hamas would be dead already if they had
3) lol. yeah, that's what they do, yes? i would like to put a smiley here but no.....
4) you see what you are told, by your media, or by hamas or whatever. up to you man. :p

On November 30 2023 21:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm sorry but you're going to have to do better than 'this is a lie hamas started using the water pipes for their bombs'.

Here are various news articles from various times between october 7th and november 17th from organizations such as Reuters, AP, the UN human rights office of the high commissioner, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty that all reference what I am talking about:

OHCHR, ' Israel must stop using water as a weapon of war: UN expert

AP1
AP2

Reuters

amnesty, not about gaza right now specifically

human rights watch

There are multiple mentions of this: 'Israel initially severed all water supply to Gaza after Oct. 7' or 'The besieged Gaza Strip’s 2.3 million people don’t have access to clean, running water after Israel cut off water and electricity to the enclave' or 'Gaza normally gets its water supplies from a combination of sources, including a pipeline from Israel, desalination plants on the Mediterranean Sea and wells. Those supplies were slashed when Israel cut off water'

Or this one: 'On October 15 Israel announced that it was partially restoring the water supply to Gaza’s south, but without fuel to pump it, delivery is limited, and the north remains cut off.' - obviously they could only restore it if they were restricting it.

Before October 7, Israel supplied the Gaza Strip with 18 million cubic meters (18 billion liters) of potable water a year through three water pipelines, some nine percent of the enclave's annual use.