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On November 29 2023 00:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 23:57 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 19:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop.
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies. We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default. We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies. A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with. You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view. I do not believe that they will be given a fair opportunity. I like the just love approach. I was very excited to see how Mexico's hugs not bombs approach would work. Spoiler is that it didn't work well at all. The cartels just took more and there were some atrocities (much smaller than Oct7th) which created a political situation where the people demanded the police and military do something. Hamas is more powerful within Gaza than the Cartels are in Mexico, they are the government. They are the ones choosing the education and it is a education of hate where they are taught how evil outsiders are and it is their religious duty to kill them all. An earlier point you made I agree with which is about how the extreme power imbalance makes the existential fear of being wiped not the most realistic fear. However, I do not know how realistic unfearful you can be when a group just committed the worst mass murder (zero military targets) and it was celebrated with the promise of more. You have the US as a very shaky ally especially in the time of Trump where he is one oil deal from switching sides or even one wrong comment from a Jewish celebrity. I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression? The problem with this reasoning is that, if the same approach doesn't work for Israel against Hamas, then how would it work for Palestinians against the Israeli administration? If it doesn't work one way, then how would it work in the opposite direction? This essentially explains why Palestinians have no path out of their oppression. And if they have no path, then we can understand why there can only be a path of escalating violence. Israelis aren't treating Palestinians with dignity and respect, so then how can we expect Palestinians to treat Israelis with dignity and respect? The existence of Hamas can be explained by the impossibilities presented by Israel. I'd also like to say that drug cartels don't exist in a vacuum either. I like to give the example of Capone, who's eventual reign and terror was fueled by the government's prohibition policies. He grew powerful because people had no way out of the impossibility presented by the government. Drug cartels are of the same nature, they exist because there's a government that presents only impossibilities. As drugs become more freely accessible to the public, and drug distribution therefore becomes more a matter of the marketplace, that effectively puts many drug lords out of business unless they participate in the same market, now legally. They're incentivized to enrich themselves through legal means. This is how we know that the war on drugs enables and effectively creates drug cartels. It's because demand doesn't just magically disappear. Hamas might well be another consequence of the impossibility presented by Israel. What alternative do Palestinians realistically have? Where's the path out of their oppression? I do not think it would. Hamas would brutally murder anyone who does not follow their way. I think if the Palestinians worked with the Israelis to remove Hamas and all the Hamas like groups you could have a chance to start over. But you would be asking the Palestinians to trust the Israelis and I don't see why they would do that. I think my biggest point of contention with your point of view is that I whole heartly believe that Hamas is doing worse for the Palestinians than Israel. They are oppressing them even more. That does not absolve Israel, it does not mean that Israel can not do better. But it does mean that ignoring the biggest and by far most evil player you come to false conclusions. Now maybe there is a point in history where if Israel had zigged instead of zagged Hamas wouldn't have such a foot hold, but no one seemingly can point this out. Why didn't Israel just give the land back like they did with Egypt? How would have given the land back helped the Palestinians? Would the rest of the world just not care about their oppression if it was not the Jews as one of the oppressors? The bombs dropping out of the sky to destroy their homes and kill their loved ones are Israeli, not Hamas.
From where you, or I, are sitting sure it might look like Hamas is worse for Palestinians but I seriously question if the Palestinians agree with that as their communities are reduced to rubble.
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Seems the truce has been broken according to the IDF as they were attacked by Hamas twice by light arms fire and bombs.
The Israel Defense Forces says a number of soldiers are lightly hurt after being attacked by Hamas in the northern Gaza Strip, in what appears to be the first serious violation of the ceasefire. Hamas accuses the IDF of violating the ceasefire first.
According to the IDF, three explosive devices were detonated near forces at two separate locations in the northern Gaza Strip, “in violation of the truce agreements.”
The army says that in one of the incidents, gunfire was also directed at troops, who returned fire.
“In both cases, the IDF forces were within the agreed-upon ceasefire lines,” it adds.
The spokesman for the military wing of Hamas says its fighters were responding to a “clear violation” of the ceasefire by the IDF in the northern Gaza Strip, which resulted in a clash. It offers no other details.
Hamas says it is “committed to the truce as long as the enemy adheres to it, and we call on the mediators to pressure the occupation to adhere to all the terms of the truce on the ground and in the air.”
Source
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On November 29 2023 00:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 23:57 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 19:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop.
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies. We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default. We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies. A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with. You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view. I do not believe that they will be given a fair opportunity. I like the just love approach. I was very excited to see how Mexico's hugs not bombs approach would work. Spoiler is that it didn't work well at all. The cartels just took more and there were some atrocities (much smaller than Oct7th) which created a political situation where the people demanded the police and military do something. Hamas is more powerful within Gaza than the Cartels are in Mexico, they are the government. They are the ones choosing the education and it is a education of hate where they are taught how evil outsiders are and it is their religious duty to kill them all. An earlier point you made I agree with which is about how the extreme power imbalance makes the existential fear of being wiped not the most realistic fear. However, I do not know how realistic unfearful you can be when a group just committed the worst mass murder (zero military targets) and it was celebrated with the promise of more. You have the US as a very shaky ally especially in the time of Trump where he is one oil deal from switching sides or even one wrong comment from a Jewish celebrity. I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression? The problem with this reasoning is that, if the same approach doesn't work for Israel against Hamas, then how would it work for Palestinians against the Israeli administration? If it doesn't work one way, then how would it work in the opposite direction? This essentially explains why Palestinians have no path out of their oppression. And if they have no path, then we can understand why there can only be a path of escalating violence. Israelis aren't treating Palestinians with dignity and respect, so then how can we expect Palestinians to treat Israelis with dignity and respect? The existence of Hamas can be explained by the impossibilities presented by Israel. I'd also like to say that drug cartels don't exist in a vacuum either. I like to give the example of Capone, who's eventual reign and terror was fueled by the government's prohibition policies. He grew powerful because people had no way out of the impossibility presented by the government. Drug cartels are of the same nature, they exist because there's a government that presents only impossibilities. As drugs become more freely accessible to the public, and drug distribution therefore becomes more a matter of the marketplace, that effectively puts many drug lords out of business unless they participate in the same market, now legally. They're incentivized to enrich themselves through legal means. This is how we know that the war on drugs enables and effectively creates drug cartels. It's because demand doesn't just magically disappear. Hamas might well be another consequence of the impossibility presented by Israel. What alternative do Palestinians realistically have? Where's the path out of their oppression? I do not think it would. Hamas would brutally murder anyone who does not follow their way.I think if the Palestinians worked with the Israelis to remove Hamas and all the Hamas like groups you could have a chance to start over. But you would be asking the Palestinians to trust the Israelis and I don't see why they would do that. I think my biggest point of contention with your point of view is that I whole heartly believe that Hamas is doing worse for the Palestinians than Israel. They are oppressing them even more. That does not absolve Israel, it does not mean that Israel can not do better. But it does mean that ignoring the biggest and by far most evil player you come to false conclusions. Now maybe there is a point in history where if Israel had zigged instead of zagged Hamas wouldn't have such a foot hold, but no one seemingly can point this out. Why didn't Israel just give the land back like they did with Egypt? How would have given the land back helped the Palestinians? Would the rest of the world just not care about their oppression if it was not the Jews as one of the oppressors?
Bolded underlined part: so does the IDF. Why is it ok if the IDF gets away with it, but not ok when Hamas... well, they didn't even get away with it, did they? Meanwhile the IDF has free reign to send thousands of missiles into Gaza and flatten the entire region, taking thousands of innocent lives in the process.
The argument that one side should be allowed to get away with this but the other shouldn't isn't born out of a sense of righteousness. We only call it murder when Hamas does it, but somehow we paint with a different brush when the IDF is engaged in atrocities? I thought we agreed that this isn't right, didn't we? Why should we keep letting the IDF get away with murder, while it's much more black and white for us when Hamas does it? Just because Hamas has a stated goal of genocide doesn't make the IDF's actions any less of an atrocity. Really the only difference that I see is that the IDF's actions are sanctioned on the world stage. Except not even that is true, as we know that a lot of UN member states are in strong disagreement with what's happening in Gaza and in the West bank. Even the US kept telling Israel's administration to back off in the West bank... but nothing has ever come of that.
This is not going to lead to a better future. There's no world in which we should keep siding with Israel in this conflict, excusing their actions, while Palestinians must be perfect angels. It just doesn't work.
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On November 29 2023 01:03 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 00:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 00:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 23:57 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 19:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies. We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default. We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies. A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with. You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view. I do not believe that they will be given a fair opportunity. I like the just love approach. I was very excited to see how Mexico's hugs not bombs approach would work. Spoiler is that it didn't work well at all. The cartels just took more and there were some atrocities (much smaller than Oct7th) which created a political situation where the people demanded the police and military do something. Hamas is more powerful within Gaza than the Cartels are in Mexico, they are the government. They are the ones choosing the education and it is a education of hate where they are taught how evil outsiders are and it is their religious duty to kill them all. An earlier point you made I agree with which is about how the extreme power imbalance makes the existential fear of being wiped not the most realistic fear. However, I do not know how realistic unfearful you can be when a group just committed the worst mass murder (zero military targets) and it was celebrated with the promise of more. You have the US as a very shaky ally especially in the time of Trump where he is one oil deal from switching sides or even one wrong comment from a Jewish celebrity. I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression? The problem with this reasoning is that, if the same approach doesn't work for Israel against Hamas, then how would it work for Palestinians against the Israeli administration? If it doesn't work one way, then how would it work in the opposite direction? This essentially explains why Palestinians have no path out of their oppression. And if they have no path, then we can understand why there can only be a path of escalating violence. Israelis aren't treating Palestinians with dignity and respect, so then how can we expect Palestinians to treat Israelis with dignity and respect? The existence of Hamas can be explained by the impossibilities presented by Israel. I'd also like to say that drug cartels don't exist in a vacuum either. I like to give the example of Capone, who's eventual reign and terror was fueled by the government's prohibition policies. He grew powerful because people had no way out of the impossibility presented by the government. Drug cartels are of the same nature, they exist because there's a government that presents only impossibilities. As drugs become more freely accessible to the public, and drug distribution therefore becomes more a matter of the marketplace, that effectively puts many drug lords out of business unless they participate in the same market, now legally. They're incentivized to enrich themselves through legal means. This is how we know that the war on drugs enables and effectively creates drug cartels. It's because demand doesn't just magically disappear. Hamas might well be another consequence of the impossibility presented by Israel. What alternative do Palestinians realistically have? Where's the path out of their oppression? I do not think it would. Hamas would brutally murder anyone who does not follow their way.I think if the Palestinians worked with the Israelis to remove Hamas and all the Hamas like groups you could have a chance to start over. But you would be asking the Palestinians to trust the Israelis and I don't see why they would do that. I think my biggest point of contention with your point of view is that I whole heartly believe that Hamas is doing worse for the Palestinians than Israel. They are oppressing them even more. That does not absolve Israel, it does not mean that Israel can not do better. But it does mean that ignoring the biggest and by far most evil player you come to false conclusions. Now maybe there is a point in history where if Israel had zigged instead of zagged Hamas wouldn't have such a foot hold, but no one seemingly can point this out. Why didn't Israel just give the land back like they did with Egypt? How would have given the land back helped the Palestinians? Would the rest of the world just not care about their oppression if it was not the Jews as one of the oppressors? Bolded underlined part: so does the IDF. Why is it ok if the IDF gets away with it, but not ok when Hamas... well, they didn't even get away with it, did they? Meanwhile the IDF has free reign to send thousands of missiles into Gaza and flatten the entire region, taking thousands of innocent lives in the process. The argument that one side should be allowed to get away with this but the other shouldn't isn't born out of a sense of righteousness. We only call it murder when Hamas does it, but somehow we paint with a different brush when the IDF is engaged in atrocities? I thought we agreed that this isn't right, didn't we? Why should we keep letting the IDF get away with murder, while it's much more black and white for us when Hamas does it? Just because Hamas has a stated goal of genocide doesn't make the IDF's actions any less of an atrocity. Really the only difference that I see is that the IDF's actions are sanctioned on the world stage. Except not even that is true, as we know that a lot of UN member states are in strong disagreement with what's happening in Gaza and in the West bank. Even the US kept telling Israel's administration to back off in the West bank... but nothing has ever come of that. This is not going to lead to a better future. There's no world in which we should keep siding with Israel in this conflict, excusing their actions, while Palestinians must be perfect angels. It just doesn't work. Who said it was? How many times can I say that I don't think the IDF should have invaded Gaza. I get it makes all of your arguments more compelling if I do, but please stop.
No, you stop. I have enough. You keep justifying Israel's actions in a de facto sense and then claiming that you don't. I seriously have enough of this BS.
I made a solid effort to meet you halfway, but you're not interested. You've been doing this exact thing with several people in the thread for so many days now and I'm done with it.
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United States42251 Posts
On November 28 2023 18:11 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 17:18 Acrofales wrote:On November 28 2023 12:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 12:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 11:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. I honestly just don't understand what are you trying to say here. Are you saying that Israel cannot possibly stop colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians? Like, there is some divine power compelling them to do it, or something? Or do you simply refuse to believe that not colonizing Palestine and not killing Palestinians could be an effective way to reduce radicalization and lead towards peace in the region? Like, I'm not trying to be 'edgy' or anything. I'm just struggling to understand why you and Mohdoo and Cerebrate and the few other posters arguing what seem like pretty much the same points refuse interto accept that not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine is an option at all, even if you don't agree that it might be a good option, yet at the same time you insist that Hamas must be removed even if history shows that we'd simply have Hamas 2.0 take their place if Israel were to successfully remove them using the methods that they have been using for the past 60 years or so. No this is the problem with you and many people here. I’m asking a question to ask a question and maybe start some interesting discussion or an extremely complicated situation. The non stop gotcha questions and pointless. And your bragging about your amazing understanding of the situation and inability to get down from a 100000 ft view that is extraordinary only in its complete one sidedness. I'm really trying to give you the benefit of doubt, here. What do you think is so complicated about the Israeli settlement expansion? What makes you think that stopping demolishing of Palestinian homes and moving radical colonists in is not a straightforward improvement over the status quo? I don’t think that’s complicated nor do I think Israel should continue doing it. I’m been clear and consistent on that. In fact it’s mind boggling that you think whatever crazy assumptions you have made you truly believe are fact. Also, it’s no where near and answer to my question. Edit: You’ve just won the war and stopped from being whiped off the map. What now with the territory held by multiple countries. Do you give it back even though you do not have peace? Do you allow the Palestinians to start a brand new country outside you borders? How do they defend themselves against their at this time current oppressors? Do you just make Israel bigger and try to fully integrate them? If so how, multicultural approach, melting pot, something else? Tons of places for you to go. I'm confused why the end of the 6-day war is your starting point for when someone should come up with a peace plan. I got a better gotcha for ya. We go back to 1947 and instead of putting Zionists in Zion, we give them Alaska instead. Or maybe we go to 1992 and immediately after the Oslo accords we enact a strong 2-state policy and dismantle settlements in Gaza and West Bank. We allow the Palestinians to have full self-government and establish their own international relations. When Hamas does a bombing, we deal with that as a criminal organisation doing criminal things, rather than an act of water by all Palestinians. Would any of this work? Who knows. It's a totally pointless exercise because we don't have a time machine nor the power to enact anything like this if we did. But if you want to deal in what-ifs, I don't think a very low bar of "don't start the implementation of an ethnostate in 1967" is a bad suggestion for your weird scenario. 1947, why would we take all the people living in Israel and move them to Alaska? It was people who lived in Israel that created the state of Israel and were forced to immediately defend it. The reaction to that by the Muslim community was to ethnically cleanse jews from all the surrounding countries and a huge portion of them also ended up in Israel. 1992, dismantle settlements = ethnically cleanse the jews. I know it's a nasty word, but that would be what it is. So are we against ethnically cleansing or not? Or is it only okay to ethnically cleanse the jews? Every other middle eastern country did it and most people just seem to shrug. Gaza was self-governed. They chose Hamas. Hamas consolidated their power by killing off the more moderate leaders. Hamas was the government of Gaza when it attacked Israel on Oct 7th. Israel responded as a nation does when it is attacked by another nation.
You would frame removing a home invader as an eviction if doing so let you claim antisemitism.
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On November 29 2023 02:01 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 01:30 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 01:03 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 00:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 00:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 23:57 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 19:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies. We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default. We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies. A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with. You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view. I do not believe that they will be given a fair opportunity. I like the just love approach. I was very excited to see how Mexico's hugs not bombs approach would work. Spoiler is that it didn't work well at all. The cartels just took more and there were some atrocities (much smaller than Oct7th) which created a political situation where the people demanded the police and military do something. Hamas is more powerful within Gaza than the Cartels are in Mexico, they are the government. They are the ones choosing the education and it is a education of hate where they are taught how evil outsiders are and it is their religious duty to kill them all. An earlier point you made I agree with which is about how the extreme power imbalance makes the existential fear of being wiped not the most realistic fear. However, I do not know how realistic unfearful you can be when a group just committed the worst mass murder (zero military targets) and it was celebrated with the promise of more. You have the US as a very shaky ally especially in the time of Trump where he is one oil deal from switching sides or even one wrong comment from a Jewish celebrity. I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression? The problem with this reasoning is that, if the same approach doesn't work for Israel against Hamas, then how would it work for Palestinians against the Israeli administration? If it doesn't work one way, then how would it work in the opposite direction? This essentially explains why Palestinians have no path out of their oppression. And if they have no path, then we can understand why there can only be a path of escalating violence. Israelis aren't treating Palestinians with dignity and respect, so then how can we expect Palestinians to treat Israelis with dignity and respect? The existence of Hamas can be explained by the impossibilities presented by Israel. I'd also like to say that drug cartels don't exist in a vacuum either. I like to give the example of Capone, who's eventual reign and terror was fueled by the government's prohibition policies. He grew powerful because people had no way out of the impossibility presented by the government. Drug cartels are of the same nature, they exist because there's a government that presents only impossibilities. As drugs become more freely accessible to the public, and drug distribution therefore becomes more a matter of the marketplace, that effectively puts many drug lords out of business unless they participate in the same market, now legally. They're incentivized to enrich themselves through legal means. This is how we know that the war on drugs enables and effectively creates drug cartels. It's because demand doesn't just magically disappear. Hamas might well be another consequence of the impossibility presented by Israel. What alternative do Palestinians realistically have? Where's the path out of their oppression? I do not think it would. Hamas would brutally murder anyone who does not follow their way.I think if the Palestinians worked with the Israelis to remove Hamas and all the Hamas like groups you could have a chance to start over. But you would be asking the Palestinians to trust the Israelis and I don't see why they would do that. I think my biggest point of contention with your point of view is that I whole heartly believe that Hamas is doing worse for the Palestinians than Israel. They are oppressing them even more. That does not absolve Israel, it does not mean that Israel can not do better. But it does mean that ignoring the biggest and by far most evil player you come to false conclusions. Now maybe there is a point in history where if Israel had zigged instead of zagged Hamas wouldn't have such a foot hold, but no one seemingly can point this out. Why didn't Israel just give the land back like they did with Egypt? How would have given the land back helped the Palestinians? Would the rest of the world just not care about their oppression if it was not the Jews as one of the oppressors? Bolded underlined part: so does the IDF. Why is it ok if the IDF gets away with it, but not ok when Hamas... well, they didn't even get away with it, did they? Meanwhile the IDF has free reign to send thousands of missiles into Gaza and flatten the entire region, taking thousands of innocent lives in the process. The argument that one side should be allowed to get away with this but the other shouldn't isn't born out of a sense of righteousness. We only call it murder when Hamas does it, but somehow we paint with a different brush when the IDF is engaged in atrocities? I thought we agreed that this isn't right, didn't we? Why should we keep letting the IDF get away with murder, while it's much more black and white for us when Hamas does it? Just because Hamas has a stated goal of genocide doesn't make the IDF's actions any less of an atrocity. Really the only difference that I see is that the IDF's actions are sanctioned on the world stage. Except not even that is true, as we know that a lot of UN member states are in strong disagreement with what's happening in Gaza and in the West bank. Even the US kept telling Israel's administration to back off in the West bank... but nothing has ever come of that. This is not going to lead to a better future. There's no world in which we should keep siding with Israel in this conflict, excusing their actions, while Palestinians must be perfect angels. It just doesn't work. Who said it was? How many times can I say that I don't think the IDF should have invaded Gaza. I get it makes all of your arguments more compelling if I do, but please stop. No, you stop. I have enough. You keep justifying Israel's actions in a de facto sense and then claiming that you don't. I seriously have enough of this BS. I made a solid effort to meet you halfway, but you're not interested. You've been doing this exact thing with several people in the thread for so many days now and I'm done with it. No I have not. Palestinians are being oppressed by multiple groups. I’m acknowledging it, the rest of you are not. And it’s really weird because when it gets brought up many of you will say you know Hamas is oppressing the Palestinians, heck many of you will even agree that they are doing it worse. But then any discussion that is not 100% about the evil of Israel is supporting their actions? Come on man. Edit: Try to find a quote in our conversation here where I say what you are saying Im saying.
Who here is not acknowledging that Palestinians are being oppressed by actors outside of Israel?
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On November 28 2023 23:46 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 23:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. By choosing a date from 55 years ago you allow any actions during that period to be "oppression" and you can then build a case to justify violence. I can do it with Japan. the USA has "oppressed" Japan since 1945.Now ,any Japanese terror organization's violence against the USA is understandable and has some moral good. And, of course, you can do it with the actions of Hamas by picking 1967 or 1947 or just about any date from many decades ago. I picked 1967 because that is when the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank started. Which would eventually lead to the first Intifada and the creation of Hamas. The existence of Hamas today is a direct result of Israel's occupation post 1967. Your analogy makes absolutely no sense tho since the US isn't oppressing Japan or the Japanese. If the US instituted an apartheid regime in Japan following the end of WW2 then you might have a point. Ofcourse I'm using history to justify Hamas (not that Hamas is justified in the suffering they inflict, lets be clear here). That is how reality works. Decades of oppression leads to 'freedom fighters' who in desperation turn to terrorism.
i thought the creation of Hamas occurred in Iran in 1987. Japan could not have a military. see my comment below.
On November 28 2023 23:40 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 23:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. I can do it with Japan. the USA has "oppressed" Japan since 1945. Well, it is not true that the USA has "oppressed" Japan since 1945. This is not to single you out, a large cohort of people think it's very impressive that arguments that refer to what happened in the real world look bad if you apply them to something that didn't happen in the real world. That's not impressive, that's how reality works.
Japan was not permitted to have a military. That can be viewed as "oppression".
The USA continues to make up BS excuses to fuck over Canada in their free trade deal. Canada continues to win judgement after judgement in these disputes and the USA just keeps lying to screw over Canadian exporters of lumber and auto parts. This has been going on for decades. After Canada wins the judgement the USA just makes a new reason anbd stops imports into the USA. This screws over Canada and its people. The USA has the resources to patrol every millimeter of its border with Canada to physically stop imports. Poor little Canada does not have the resources to stop American imports into Canada. USA is "oppressing" Canada.
English Canada is "oppressing" french Canada so its understandable for the FLQ to kidnap Canadian members of parliament. French Canada is not being properly represented. French Canada pays massive taxes to the English government. This is oppression.
There are some more examples for you. Just pick a date far enough into the past and you'll always being able to find some example of "unfair treatment" and then you can stretch that into "oppression".
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On November 29 2023 02:56 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 02:16 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 02:01 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 01:30 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 01:03 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 00:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 00:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 23:57 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 19:20 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies.
We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default.
We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies.
A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with.
You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view. I do not believe that they will be given a fair opportunity. I like the just love approach. I was very excited to see how Mexico's hugs not bombs approach would work. Spoiler is that it didn't work well at all. The cartels just took more and there were some atrocities (much smaller than Oct7th) which created a political situation where the people demanded the police and military do something. Hamas is more powerful within Gaza than the Cartels are in Mexico, they are the government. They are the ones choosing the education and it is a education of hate where they are taught how evil outsiders are and it is their religious duty to kill them all. An earlier point you made I agree with which is about how the extreme power imbalance makes the existential fear of being wiped not the most realistic fear. However, I do not know how realistic unfearful you can be when a group just committed the worst mass murder (zero military targets) and it was celebrated with the promise of more. You have the US as a very shaky ally especially in the time of Trump where he is one oil deal from switching sides or even one wrong comment from a Jewish celebrity. I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression? The problem with this reasoning is that, if the same approach doesn't work for Israel against Hamas, then how would it work for Palestinians against the Israeli administration? If it doesn't work one way, then how would it work in the opposite direction? This essentially explains why Palestinians have no path out of their oppression. And if they have no path, then we can understand why there can only be a path of escalating violence. Israelis aren't treating Palestinians with dignity and respect, so then how can we expect Palestinians to treat Israelis with dignity and respect? The existence of Hamas can be explained by the impossibilities presented by Israel. I'd also like to say that drug cartels don't exist in a vacuum either. I like to give the example of Capone, who's eventual reign and terror was fueled by the government's prohibition policies. He grew powerful because people had no way out of the impossibility presented by the government. Drug cartels are of the same nature, they exist because there's a government that presents only impossibilities. As drugs become more freely accessible to the public, and drug distribution therefore becomes more a matter of the marketplace, that effectively puts many drug lords out of business unless they participate in the same market, now legally. They're incentivized to enrich themselves through legal means. This is how we know that the war on drugs enables and effectively creates drug cartels. It's because demand doesn't just magically disappear. Hamas might well be another consequence of the impossibility presented by Israel. What alternative do Palestinians realistically have? Where's the path out of their oppression? I do not think it would. Hamas would brutally murder anyone who does not follow their way.I think if the Palestinians worked with the Israelis to remove Hamas and all the Hamas like groups you could have a chance to start over. But you would be asking the Palestinians to trust the Israelis and I don't see why they would do that. I think my biggest point of contention with your point of view is that I whole heartly believe that Hamas is doing worse for the Palestinians than Israel. They are oppressing them even more. That does not absolve Israel, it does not mean that Israel can not do better. But it does mean that ignoring the biggest and by far most evil player you come to false conclusions. Now maybe there is a point in history where if Israel had zigged instead of zagged Hamas wouldn't have such a foot hold, but no one seemingly can point this out. Why didn't Israel just give the land back like they did with Egypt? How would have given the land back helped the Palestinians? Would the rest of the world just not care about their oppression if it was not the Jews as one of the oppressors? Bolded underlined part: so does the IDF. Why is it ok if the IDF gets away with it, but not ok when Hamas... well, they didn't even get away with it, did they? Meanwhile the IDF has free reign to send thousands of missiles into Gaza and flatten the entire region, taking thousands of innocent lives in the process. The argument that one side should be allowed to get away with this but the other shouldn't isn't born out of a sense of righteousness. We only call it murder when Hamas does it, but somehow we paint with a different brush when the IDF is engaged in atrocities? I thought we agreed that this isn't right, didn't we? Why should we keep letting the IDF get away with murder, while it's much more black and white for us when Hamas does it? Just because Hamas has a stated goal of genocide doesn't make the IDF's actions any less of an atrocity. Really the only difference that I see is that the IDF's actions are sanctioned on the world stage. Except not even that is true, as we know that a lot of UN member states are in strong disagreement with what's happening in Gaza and in the West bank. Even the US kept telling Israel's administration to back off in the West bank... but nothing has ever come of that. This is not going to lead to a better future. There's no world in which we should keep siding with Israel in this conflict, excusing their actions, while Palestinians must be perfect angels. It just doesn't work. Who said it was? How many times can I say that I don't think the IDF should have invaded Gaza. I get it makes all of your arguments more compelling if I do, but please stop. No, you stop. I have enough. You keep justifying Israel's actions in a de facto sense and then claiming that you don't. I seriously have enough of this BS. I made a solid effort to meet you halfway, but you're not interested. You've been doing this exact thing with several people in the thread for so many days now and I'm done with it. No I have not. Palestinians are being oppressed by multiple groups. I’m acknowledging it, the rest of you are not. And it’s really weird because when it gets brought up many of you will say you know Hamas is oppressing the Palestinians, heck many of you will even agree that they are doing it worse. But then any discussion that is not 100% about the evil of Israel is supporting their actions? Come on man. Edit: Try to find a quote in our conversation here where I say what you are saying Im saying. Who here is not acknowledging that Palestinians are being oppressed by actors outside of Israel? Is this a trick question? Clearly it’s not me since I say they are being oppressed by Iran, Qatar, Hamas, Israel. So it you? My guess is no one but you like many here can not seem to grasp that there can be and often is more than one oppressor. Israel could do everything you want from them and the Palestinians would still be oppressed, outside of the obvious and immediate major benefit of not being killed being used as a human shield for the one side, things get no better, maybe worse. If your a female, different religion, lgbtq2+, or anyone else. If people were actually pro Palestinian and not just anti Israel they would be giving at least the same amount of time talking about what to do about Hamas as they are Israel, if not more. And they most certainly would not be falsely equivocating talking about how bad Hamas is as support for what Israel has done or is doing.
I haven't explicitely stated that Iran and Qatar are oppressing Palestinians, but I have definitely mentioned them as the two main sponsors of Hamas. I've never said that the oppression of Palestinians comes exclusively from Israel, and I don't know of anyone else who has made that claim.
And no, we don't have to focus on Hamas as much as we do on Israel, because everyone in this thread has (without any exceptions as far as I can tell) strongly condemned Hamas, many of us multiple times. In my understanding we're all in agreement about Hamas being the main perpetrator of the conflict. Condemning Hamas is - as I think it was KwarK who aptly put it - like protesting against criminals. Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. But not everyone agrees that the IDF is just as bad. I know you (mostly or partially) agree, but others don't (mainly RenSC2, Cerebrate1 and I believe RvB). We've been arguing with people about the atrocities committed by the IDF and the harmful policies of the Israeli administration. That's an actual controversy. Hamas is not a controversy, and that's why they haven't received the same level of attention in this thread. There's nothing to have a debate about regarding Hamas.
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On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas.
This depends upon the living situation of the criminal. I think a working poor or homeless guy stealing food from a grocery store might not be a criminal if he lives in a rich first world country. This is especially true in first world countries where food prices have skyrocketed far and above the rate of inflation as the grocery store chain owner become a billionaire. I think there is an argument to be made that the billionaire grocery store chain owner is the criminal.
If you want to become a billionaire by selling $200,000 cars and video games then fine. That's all luxury BS. You want to become a billionaire by cranking up the price of food while the local supermarkets are closed by government law due to covid? That's criminal... not the poor guy stealing the very expensive, artificially high priced food.
getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany.
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On November 29 2023 04:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 02:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 02:16 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 02:01 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 01:30 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 01:03 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 00:55 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 00:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 23:57 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression?
The problem with this reasoning is that, if the same approach doesn't work for Israel against Hamas, then how would it work for Palestinians against the Israeli administration? If it doesn't work one way, then how would it work in the opposite direction?
This essentially explains why Palestinians have no path out of their oppression. And if they have no path, then we can understand why there can only be a path of escalating violence. Israelis aren't treating Palestinians with dignity and respect, so then how can we expect Palestinians to treat Israelis with dignity and respect?
The existence of Hamas can be explained by the impossibilities presented by Israel.
I'd also like to say that drug cartels don't exist in a vacuum either. I like to give the example of Capone, who's eventual reign and terror was fueled by the government's prohibition policies. He grew powerful because people had no way out of the impossibility presented by the government.
Drug cartels are of the same nature, they exist because there's a government that presents only impossibilities. As drugs become more freely accessible to the public, and drug distribution therefore becomes more a matter of the marketplace, that effectively puts many drug lords out of business unless they participate in the same market, now legally. They're incentivized to enrich themselves through legal means.
This is how we know that the war on drugs enables and effectively creates drug cartels. It's because demand doesn't just magically disappear.
Hamas might well be another consequence of the impossibility presented by Israel. What alternative do Palestinians realistically have? Where's the path out of their oppression? I do not think it would. Hamas would brutally murder anyone who does not follow their way.I think if the Palestinians worked with the Israelis to remove Hamas and all the Hamas like groups you could have a chance to start over. But you would be asking the Palestinians to trust the Israelis and I don't see why they would do that. I think my biggest point of contention with your point of view is that I whole heartly believe that Hamas is doing worse for the Palestinians than Israel. They are oppressing them even more. That does not absolve Israel, it does not mean that Israel can not do better. But it does mean that ignoring the biggest and by far most evil player you come to false conclusions. Now maybe there is a point in history where if Israel had zigged instead of zagged Hamas wouldn't have such a foot hold, but no one seemingly can point this out. Why didn't Israel just give the land back like they did with Egypt? How would have given the land back helped the Palestinians? Would the rest of the world just not care about their oppression if it was not the Jews as one of the oppressors? Bolded underlined part: so does the IDF. Why is it ok if the IDF gets away with it, but not ok when Hamas... well, they didn't even get away with it, did they? Meanwhile the IDF has free reign to send thousands of missiles into Gaza and flatten the entire region, taking thousands of innocent lives in the process. The argument that one side should be allowed to get away with this but the other shouldn't isn't born out of a sense of righteousness. We only call it murder when Hamas does it, but somehow we paint with a different brush when the IDF is engaged in atrocities? I thought we agreed that this isn't right, didn't we? Why should we keep letting the IDF get away with murder, while it's much more black and white for us when Hamas does it? Just because Hamas has a stated goal of genocide doesn't make the IDF's actions any less of an atrocity. Really the only difference that I see is that the IDF's actions are sanctioned on the world stage. Except not even that is true, as we know that a lot of UN member states are in strong disagreement with what's happening in Gaza and in the West bank. Even the US kept telling Israel's administration to back off in the West bank... but nothing has ever come of that. This is not going to lead to a better future. There's no world in which we should keep siding with Israel in this conflict, excusing their actions, while Palestinians must be perfect angels. It just doesn't work. Who said it was? How many times can I say that I don't think the IDF should have invaded Gaza. I get it makes all of your arguments more compelling if I do, but please stop. No, you stop. I have enough. You keep justifying Israel's actions in a de facto sense and then claiming that you don't. I seriously have enough of this BS. I made a solid effort to meet you halfway, but you're not interested. You've been doing this exact thing with several people in the thread for so many days now and I'm done with it. No I have not. Palestinians are being oppressed by multiple groups. I’m acknowledging it, the rest of you are not. And it’s really weird because when it gets brought up many of you will say you know Hamas is oppressing the Palestinians, heck many of you will even agree that they are doing it worse. But then any discussion that is not 100% about the evil of Israel is supporting their actions? Come on man. Edit: Try to find a quote in our conversation here where I say what you are saying Im saying. Who here is not acknowledging that Palestinians are being oppressed by actors outside of Israel? Is this a trick question? Clearly it’s not me since I say they are being oppressed by Iran, Qatar, Hamas, Israel. So it you? My guess is no one but you like many here can not seem to grasp that there can be and often is more than one oppressor. Israel could do everything you want from them and the Palestinians would still be oppressed, outside of the obvious and immediate major benefit of not being killed being used as a human shield for the one side, things get no better, maybe worse. If your a female, different religion, lgbtq2+, or anyone else. If people were actually pro Palestinian and not just anti Israel they would be giving at least the same amount of time talking about what to do about Hamas as they are Israel, if not more. And they most certainly would not be falsely equivocating talking about how bad Hamas is as support for what Israel has done or is doing. I haven't explicitely stated that Iran and Qatar are oppressing Palestinians, but I have definitely mentioned them as the two main sponsors of Hamas. I've never said that the oppression of Palestinians comes exclusively from Israel, and I don't know of anyone else who has made that claim. And no, we don't have to focus on Hamas as much as we do on Israel, because everyone in this thread has (without any exceptions as far as I can tell) strongly condemned Hamas, many of us multiple times. In my understanding we're all in agreement about Hamas being the main perpetrator of the conflict. Condemning Hamas is - as I think it was KwarK who aptly put it - like protesting against criminals. Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. But not everyone agrees that the IDF is just as bad. I know you (mostly or partially) agree, but others don't (mainly RenSC2, Cerebrate1 and I believe RvB). We've been arguing with people about the atrocities committed by the IDF and the harmful policies of the Israeli administration. That's an actual controversy. Hamas is not a controversy, and that's why they haven't received the same level of attention in this thread. There's nothing to have a debate about regarding Hamas. Why have you not explicitly stated it? It is ultra clear, they were never about Palestinian freedom when they had power over the territory, they certainly are not now. Nor are they even pretending to be, in fact they are explicitly against freedom in general. And yes people have no explicitly stated that oppression only comes from Israel, just that every time anyone tries to talk about anything other than Israel oppressing, some jackass shows up with their gotcha question Mic drop moment and everyone is completely on board with it. It is depressing to see the level of discussion on the matter. It makes me question if I held TL higher than I should, if the quality of the posting has dropped that dramatically, or if people can just not be sensible and reasonable once Israel gets mentioned. Edit: The crazy thing is this conversation should have devolved into a big NO YOU, NOOO YOUUU. If the Hamas haters reacted the same way the Israel posters have. It is pretty amazing how nice and polite the getting dog piled on side has had to be.
Bolded: why would I have to? You're accusing people of believing that Israel is solely responsible for the oppression of Palestinians. But that's an assumption on your part. You could just ask people what they believe and then you would know, and you wouldn't have to assume anything, and pointless discussions wouldn't have to fill so many pages.
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On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. This depends upon the living situation of the criminal. I think a working poor or homeless guy stealing food from a grocery store might not be a criminal if he lives in a rich first world country. This is especially true in first world countries where food prices have skyrocketed far and above the rate of inflation as the grocery store chain owner become a billionaire. I think there is an argument to be made that the billionaire grocery store chain owner is the criminal. If you want to become a billionaire by selling $200,000 cars and video games then fine. That's all luxury BS. You want to become a billionaire by cranking up the price of food while the local supermarkets are closed by government law due to covid? That's criminal... not the poor guy stealing the very expensive, artificially high priced food. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany.
I understand what you're saying about criminals. I was just trying to explain with a relatively simple comparison why people aren't marching the streets protesting Hamas. That not all criminals are bad is a discussion generally worth having, but I didn't think it necessary to come up with a more precise comparison.
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On November 29 2023 05:43 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 05:34 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 04:05 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 02:56 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 02:16 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 02:01 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 01:30 Magic Powers wrote:On November 29 2023 01:03 JimmiC wrote:On November 29 2023 00:55 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
Bolded underlined part: so does the IDF. Why is it ok if the IDF gets away with it, but not ok when Hamas... well, they didn't even get away with it, did they? Meanwhile the IDF has free reign to send thousands of missiles into Gaza and flatten the entire region, taking thousands of innocent lives in the process.
The argument that one side should be allowed to get away with this but the other shouldn't isn't born out of a sense of righteousness. We only call it murder when Hamas does it, but somehow we paint with a different brush when the IDF is engaged in atrocities? I thought we agreed that this isn't right, didn't we? Why should we keep letting the IDF get away with murder, while it's much more black and white for us when Hamas does it? Just because Hamas has a stated goal of genocide doesn't make the IDF's actions any less of an atrocity. Really the only difference that I see is that the IDF's actions are sanctioned on the world stage. Except not even that is true, as we know that a lot of UN member states are in strong disagreement with what's happening in Gaza and in the West bank. Even the US kept telling Israel's administration to back off in the West bank... but nothing has ever come of that.
This is not going to lead to a better future. There's no world in which we should keep siding with Israel in this conflict, excusing their actions, while Palestinians must be perfect angels. It just doesn't work. Who said it was? How many times can I say that I don't think the IDF should have invaded Gaza. I get it makes all of your arguments more compelling if I do, but please stop. No, you stop. I have enough. You keep justifying Israel's actions in a de facto sense and then claiming that you don't. I seriously have enough of this BS. I made a solid effort to meet you halfway, but you're not interested. You've been doing this exact thing with several people in the thread for so many days now and I'm done with it. No I have not. Palestinians are being oppressed by multiple groups. I’m acknowledging it, the rest of you are not. And it’s really weird because when it gets brought up many of you will say you know Hamas is oppressing the Palestinians, heck many of you will even agree that they are doing it worse. But then any discussion that is not 100% about the evil of Israel is supporting their actions? Come on man. Edit: Try to find a quote in our conversation here where I say what you are saying Im saying. Who here is not acknowledging that Palestinians are being oppressed by actors outside of Israel? Is this a trick question? Clearly it’s not me since I say they are being oppressed by Iran, Qatar, Hamas, Israel. So it you? My guess is no one but you like many here can not seem to grasp that there can be and often is more than one oppressor. Israel could do everything you want from them and the Palestinians would still be oppressed, outside of the obvious and immediate major benefit of not being killed being used as a human shield for the one side, things get no better, maybe worse. If your a female, different religion, lgbtq2+, or anyone else. If people were actually pro Palestinian and not just anti Israel they would be giving at least the same amount of time talking about what to do about Hamas as they are Israel, if not more. And they most certainly would not be falsely equivocating talking about how bad Hamas is as support for what Israel has done or is doing. I haven't explicitely stated that Iran and Qatar are oppressing Palestinians, but I have definitely mentioned them as the two main sponsors of Hamas. I've never said that the oppression of Palestinians comes exclusively from Israel, and I don't know of anyone else who has made that claim. And no, we don't have to focus on Hamas as much as we do on Israel, because everyone in this thread has (without any exceptions as far as I can tell) strongly condemned Hamas, many of us multiple times. In my understanding we're all in agreement about Hamas being the main perpetrator of the conflict. Condemning Hamas is - as I think it was KwarK who aptly put it - like protesting against criminals. Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. But not everyone agrees that the IDF is just as bad. I know you (mostly or partially) agree, but others don't (mainly RenSC2, Cerebrate1 and I believe RvB). We've been arguing with people about the atrocities committed by the IDF and the harmful policies of the Israeli administration. That's an actual controversy. Hamas is not a controversy, and that's why they haven't received the same level of attention in this thread. There's nothing to have a debate about regarding Hamas. Why have you not explicitly stated it? It is ultra clear, they were never about Palestinian freedom when they had power over the territory, they certainly are not now. Nor are they even pretending to be, in fact they are explicitly against freedom in general. And yes people have no explicitly stated that oppression only comes from Israel, just that every time anyone tries to talk about anything other than Israel oppressing, some jackass shows up with their gotcha question Mic drop moment and everyone is completely on board with it. It is depressing to see the level of discussion on the matter. It makes me question if I held TL higher than I should, if the quality of the posting has dropped that dramatically, or if people can just not be sensible and reasonable once Israel gets mentioned. Edit: The crazy thing is this conversation should have devolved into a big NO YOU, NOOO YOUUU. If the Hamas haters reacted the same way the Israel posters have. It is pretty amazing how nice and polite the getting dog piled on side has had to be. Bolded: why would I have to? You're accusing people of believing that Israel is solely responsible for the oppression of Palestinians. But that's an assumption on your part. You could just ask people what they believe and then you would know, and you wouldn't have to assume anything, and pointless discussions wouldn't have to fill so many pages. It’s an assumption based on their reactions to my questions. lol some pretty circular logic there not to mention a huge blind spot on how you are treating my responses. Heck I’ve asked you and others to source the accusations you make of me and you never do. Just stay up on your self righteous soap boxes. It’s fine though I just have to drastically lower my expectations.
How am I treating your responses? I was one of the first to try to reconcile with you by acknowledging that our views align for the most part, and that we had little to no reason to even have any discussions with each other about this conflict. I noticed that and pointed it out, you seemed to agree and listed many of your views, we agreed that we were overwhelmingly on the same page, and then we moved on.
I can't speak for other people, but I've not noticed anyone alluding to Israel being the sole driver of Palestinian oppression. Feel free to correct me, that's why I asked you to point to someone in particular. If that isn't possible, we can just let people speak for themselves and it should become abundantly clear if someone actually holds this view.
I'm also not sure what you mean by me accusing you. What accusation exactly are you speaking of?
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On November 29 2023 04:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2023 03:39 Magic Powers wrote:
Practically everyone agrees criminals are bad. Regarding the conflict that would be Hamas. getting back to the topic. If the palestinians were oppressed the way the soviet union oppressed east germans then i can have some empathy for Hamas. That is not the case though. Palestinians can go to several countries whereas East Germans were killed trying to leave East Germany.
https://www.btselem.org/download/201401_so_near_and_yet_so_far_eng.pdf
Ignoring all the obvious differences like East Germans not having their homes regularly bombed, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in particular have no freedom of movement whatsoever. There are no air or sea ports, and land crossings are controlled by the IDF and require extremely difficult to obtain permits.
On November 28 2023 18:15 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85.
As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single year where population of Israeli settlements hasn't increased compared to the year prior, even during the disengagement colonization continued in other parts of Palestinian territories so I don't think that really qualifies as 'stopping to colonize.' Not to mention that obviously even if Israel were to stop their ethnic cleansing project entirely, it would take many years for the wounds to heal. Obviously there is no magic button to reset everything and make everyone happy immediately. To me at least, it just seems like a no brainer that oppression has to stop before any progress can be made -- even if stopping the oppression isn't going to stop radicalism and terror attacks immediately, it's not a bad starting point.
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