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On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member.
Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine?
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On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine?
What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged.
Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas.
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On November 28 2023 03:46 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 01:25 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 01:21 RvB wrote:On November 27 2023 23:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. "If Hamas does not surrender, it is reasonable to try to reduce the likelihood Hamas will be able to commit atrocities like October 7. I imagine his issue is less so labelling Hamas as problematic and more so this framing. If what Hamas did on Oct 7 was an atrocity, then what on Earth do we call what the IDF has done for 75 years? No one is against removing Hamas from the equation, the problems are A) How we go about doing that (instead of carpet bombing a civilian dense area) B) What we do beyond that (i.e. how do we reform Israeli government) For my part, I'm confused why we think inflicting further terror on people will reduce cooperation by Gazans towards Hamas instead of breeding more resistance fighters. So how do you do A without removing them by force? There is force that isn't bombing entire city blocks? Many (not necessarily in the thread) call for a ceasefire. A ceasefire now means Hamas stays in charge of the Gaza Strip. If you do not want that then you'd need to find a way to remove them without force. If you're of the opinion that it's okay for Israel to remove Hamas militarily but with less bombing then I can understand that. (Almost) No one here is complaining that Israel shouldn't remove Hamas. Its the way they are going about it that is the problem.
If Israel had tried to remove Hamas militarily without bombing the entire Gaza strip into a pile of rubble they would have found more longer term support. Both in this thread and internationally.
Again, Israel fighting Hamas is not a problem for (almost) everyone. The manner in which they are waging the fight is.
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On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas.
I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things.
Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews.
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On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop.
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967.
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On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war?
How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point?
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On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point?
It's a remarkably low bar, yet entirely insurmountable for Israel, even according to its supporters.
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On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive.
I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers?
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On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews.
The topic is how to best prevent Hamas from harming Israelis while also preventing innocent Palestinians from being harmed. I understand what you are saying and of course I agree Israel has a past littered with moral failings, and that past has inspired a lot of anger. I just want to be clear that I fully accept and understand what you are saying about Israel’s past being a big reason enough people were mad enough to allow Hamas to become an elected government.
It feels like the conclusion of your response is that Israel created this situation. I am saying even if we fully accept that and declare Hamas is Israel’s fault, I am still not seeing how that helps us disarm Hamas while reducing harm to Palestinians. Hamas has repeatedly reiterated regardless of any concessions Israel makes, Hamas will continue trying to kill as many Jews as they can until either Hamas or Jews breathes their last breath. I take that to mean history indicates the source of their hatred, but it does not tell us how to disarm Hamas without harming Palestinians.
Can you please spell it out for me? I’ve been dense before and I’m sure I will be again, so if you are trying to make a point, please spell it out for me so I can better respond.
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On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left.
When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death.
However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time.
I honestly just don't understand what are you trying to say here. Are you saying that Israel cannot possibly stop colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians? Like, there is some divine power compelling them to do it, or something? Or do you simply refuse to believe that not colonizing Palestine and not killing Palestinians could be an effective way to reduce radicalization and lead towards peace in the region?
Like, I'm not trying to be 'edgy' or anything. I'm just struggling to understand why you and Mohdoo and Cerebrate and the few other posters arguing what seem like pretty much the same points refuse to accept that not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine is an option at all, even if you don't agree that it might be a good option, yet at the same time you insist that Hamas must be removed even if history shows that we'd simply have Hamas 2.0 take their place if Israel were to successfully remove them using the methods that they have been using for the past 60 years or so.
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On November 28 2023 11:34 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. The topic is how to best prevent Hamas from harming Israelis while also preventing innocent Palestinians from being harmed. I understand what you are saying and of course I agree Israel has a past littered with moral failings, and that past has inspired a lot of anger. I just want to be clear that I fully accept and understand what you are saying about Israel’s past being a big reason enough people were mad enough to allow Hamas to become an elected government. It feels like the conclusion of your response is that Israel created this situation. I am saying even if we fully accept that and declare Hamas is Israel’s fault, I am still not seeing how that helps us disarm Hamas while reducing harm to Palestinians. Hamas has repeatedly reiterated regardless of any concessions Israel makes, Hamas will continue trying to kill as many Jews as they can until either Hamas or Jews breathes their last breath. I take that to mean history indicates the source of their hatred, but it does not tell us how to disarm Hamas without harming Palestinians. Can you please spell it out for me? I’ve been dense before and I’m sure I will be again, so if you are trying to make a point, please spell it out for me so I can better respond.
I have spelled it out numerous times in this thread. The number one reason Hamas is so successful in recruiting / using civilians is because civilians see no alternatives and no prospects for tomorrow. It's much easier to find suicide bombers among a desperate, destitute population than it is among a population that has at least a modicum of hope for a better future. Stop demolishing Palestinian homes, stop killing kids for throwing a rock at a tank, stop writing off thousands of bodies as 'necessary collateral damage', and Hamas will stop being such an attractive option. I don't think that's particularly far-fetched.
Plus, at least then we could genuinely say that we are on the right side of history for a change, instead of, you know, supporting a murderous apartheid regime.
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On November 28 2023 11:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 11:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged.
Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. I honestly just don't understand what are you trying to say here. Are you saying that Israel cannot possibly stop colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians? Like, there is some divine power compelling them to do it, or something? Or do you simply refuse to believe that not colonizing Palestine and not killing Palestinians could be an effective way to reduce radicalization and lead towards peace in the region? Like, I'm not trying to be 'edgy' or anything. I'm just struggling to understand why you and Mohdoo and Cerebrate and the few other posters arguing what seem like pretty much the same points refuse interto accept that not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine is an option at all, even if you don't agree that it might be a good option, yet at the same time you insist that Hamas must be removed even if history shows that we'd simply have Hamas 2.0 take their place if Israel were to successfully remove them using the methods that they have been using for the past 60 years or so. No this is the problem with you and many people here. I’m asking a question to ask a question and maybe start some interesting discussion or an extremely complicated situation. The non stop gotcha questions and pointless. And your bragging about your amazing understanding of the situation and inability to get down from a 100000 ft view that is extraordinary only in its complete one sidedness.
I'm really trying to give you the benefit of doubt, here. What do you think is so complicated about the Israeli settlement expansion? What makes you think that stopping demolishing of Palestinian homes and moving radical colonists in is not a straightforward improvement over the status quo?
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On November 27 2023 18:27 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. This is exactly the problem. Several people here, including Cerebrate and Mohdoo, among others, just don't ever realize that their "solution" which includes destroying Hamas never also includes liberating Palestinians. For some reason they consider it a solution regardless. It's not a solution though, and it can't be a solution. It's not even a stepping stone to a solution. And Mohdoo even keeps referring to my ideas as pacifist. That says basically everything, as if Israel could only choose between mass destruction or sitting on their hands, and nothing in between. I'm not a pacifist if I'm against this mindless bloodshed. What I'm asking for is only the most remote sense of reason. Letting people live, and letting them live freely, that is not pacifist. It's a liberal position. It's what EVERY liberal should demand.
I just want to clarify that I spoke out at least one plan that did in fact lead to an independent Palestine. It was a bit lengthy and nuanced, as any realistic plan like that would have to be of course. It was a good number of pages back though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just forgot it when you mischaracterized my stance here.
Regarding your pacifism, you don't seem to believe in the concept of self defense. Pretty much every moral system believes in self defense short of pacifist systems who would accept their own death before raising a hand against another. Perhaps we misunderstood you though. Perhaps you DO believe Israel has the right to defend itself, but you just believe that it is not being careful enough in how it carries this out.
Either stance has a legitimate moral framework that we could discuss. You just have to be clear with us (and perhaps with yourself), what your actual stance is.
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On November 28 2023 11:45 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:
[quote]
Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. I honestly just don't understand what are you trying to say here. Are you saying that Israel cannot possibly stop colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians? Like, there is some divine power compelling them to do it, or something? Or do you simply refuse to believe that not colonizing Palestine and not killing Palestinians could be an effective way to reduce radicalization and lead towards peace in the region? Like, I'm not trying to be 'edgy' or anything. I'm just struggling to understand why you and Mohdoo and Cerebrate and the few other posters arguing what seem like pretty much the same points refuse to accept that not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine is an option at all, even if you don't agree that it might be a good option, yet at the same time you insist that Hamas must be removed even if history shows that we'd simply have Hamas 2.0 take their place if Israel were to successfully remove them using the methods that they have been using for the past 60 years or so.
I'm not sure if you are mischaracterizing my stance or just using such broad terms that they've lost all meaning (Does "killing Palestinians" include shooting a terrorist as he tries to stab a civilian? Does "colonizing Palestine" include building a house in Tel Aviv? I am in favor of those things, but I wouldn't use those terms to describe them.)
In any case, I'd like to politely ask anyone who wants to quote me in the future to please use the quote function on my actual post when you do. It could be that I'm not being clear enough, but at least I can see how you got to that conclusion if I can see what words led you to think that way.
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EPT
