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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On November 25 2023 11:59 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2023 05:38 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 25 2023 05:16 RvB wrote:
They're not just throwing rocks. They use slings. A sling can be a deadly weapon and kill. Ah shit, they're using slings, time to mow the lawn. I'll make my point quite clear because it's likely not to be caught, I remain concerned by the seriously lack of concern or respect for the lives of Palestinian civilian lives. All atrocities committed upon civilians (Pal or Israeli) is fucked up and to be avoided at all costs. The lengths by which the IDF's actions are justified is problematic. Indeed. It doesn’t sound like all of these prisoners to be released are exactly hardened terrorists. There’s probably a more thorough breakdown elsewhere but bit busy at work to track down a better link who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday
I was wondering why they kept calling 18 year olds "boys" until I saw that it was Al Jazeera.
Using any sort of weapon against other human beings is a crime in most places. The punishment is less severe if you don't succeed at killing them, but that doesn't make the culprit an angel. Imagine an 18 year old man throwing a rock at you for a second. Would you call the cops on that guy?
Now imagine him with a hundred friends with their own improvised weapons rioting. Any country in the world would send in specialized security forces (that would be well equipped to handle rocks) to quell the riot and throw some people in jail until things could be sorted out.
I agree that the people being released right now are probably not mastermind terrorists, but they are also not comparable to the children and their mothers who are being released by Hamas.
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On November 25 2023 07:04 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2023 02:14 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 24 2023 21:57 MaGic~PhiL wrote:I mean what irks me a bit. The IDF (in their countless youtube videos) is celebrating the finding/existence of tunnels as a big "gotcha" "we told you". This doesnt sit right with me. 1) A bunch of tunnels (prebuilt by Israel according to a credible source in the former Israel PM) are not a commando central 2) Whilst Israel is throwing between 6000 and 25.000 TONS of Explosives on Gaza it is a crime that the "military Organization in Gaza" (they are obv. terrorists dont misinterpret this please) is building sth. that can maybe increase their safety a bit. Like I am a bit flabbergasted if you look at this whole "tunnel thing" in an objective, unbiased manner how you can come to the conclusion "tunnels horrible" "devastation of huge area with thousand of tons OK" Also am I the only one here who found it super amussing that the IDF showed videos with weapons (rifles) stored at an MRI machine? You dont need to be a genius to know how metal intereacts with MRIs. Question at everyone (Im curious): Did you watch "IDF youtube videos"? If so how credible did you find them? (For me the answer is: I watched like 10-12 of them; Mostly they were incredibly bad & when u fact checked them 90%+ were straight up lies/fake) + Show Spoiler + Documenting an extensive tunnel network directly under civilian infrastructure is only a gotcha for the people who just decided last week that Hamas had no connections to Al Shifa. Otherwise it's just providing evidence that there are enemy military installations where Israel is operating. Which removes the protected status of those areas under the Geneva Conventions. 1) There was an underground area built by Israel for the hospital, sure. The shoddily assembled concrete tunnels zig zagging the area were not built by Israel. 2) There seems to be a perception that Israel's goal is to kill a bunch of terrorists, fly home, and declare victory. If that was the goal, I agree that it's not a very effective defense plan and this is not the best way to go about it. The real goal could better be described as "regime change in Gaza." The Allies didn't have to kill every Nazi soldier to end WW2 in Europe, but they did have to march through Germany until Allied forces controlled the whole country. Then they installed someone else in power there to replace the Nazi regime. There are people alive today who served in the Nazi army, but Germany is nonetheless no longer a threat to Western democracy because of that regime change. You don't have to kill every member of Hamas to accomplish regime change. Heck, if Hamas just surrender tomorrow, the killing could stop altogether (minus trials for those responsible for Oct 7). The military necessity of anything is being measured by the stick of "will this help Israel take control of this area so someone else can be put in power besides Hamas." It's not that every given tunnel is a direct threat to Israel. It's that Hamas is a direct threat to Israel and they can't be removed from power unless you remove them from their bases of operation. History clearly indicates that this is not the case. I dont know how you come to this conclusion.
To clarify my post, I did not mean that the entire Arab-Israel Conflict would be immediately solved and crime would disappear. I apologize for using words that could be understood to paint such a broad stroke. I meant that the current war would end.
I was responding to your post about the current war and it's rationalizations. Zooming back out to the Arab-Israel Conflict as a whole, I don't believe there is any one action any one party can do to unilaterally create long term peace. A lot of people are going to have to do various things over decades to solve that.
But the current war would end pretty swiftly if Hamas legitimately surrendered. And given that the current war is what is causing the high number of casualties, property damage, population displacement, etc, which are most people's main concern, and given that everyone on this thread agrees that Hamas is particularly awful to their own people and for the conflict as a whole, it seems pretty clear that their surrender would be a good thing.
Not that that's likely to happen. But if it did, it would reduce the number of deaths and amount of tragedy on all sides by a huge margin.
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Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way.
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Fun fact: last time a Hamas leader publicly called for peace with Israel, the IDF blasted him (and a bunch of unrelated civilians who happened to be passing nearby) to pieces.
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On November 26 2023 19:03 Salazarz wrote:
Fun fact: last time a Hamas leader publicly called for peace with Israel, the IDF blasted him (and a bunch of unrelated civilians who happened to be passing nearby) to pieces.
Who are you referring to?
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On November 26 2023 14:48 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2023 11:59 WombaT wrote:On November 25 2023 05:38 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 25 2023 05:16 RvB wrote:
They're not just throwing rocks. They use slings. A sling can be a deadly weapon and kill. Ah shit, they're using slings, time to mow the lawn. I'll make my point quite clear because it's likely not to be caught, I remain concerned by the seriously lack of concern or respect for the lives of Palestinian civilian lives. All atrocities committed upon civilians (Pal or Israeli) is fucked up and to be avoided at all costs. The lengths by which the IDF's actions are justified is problematic. Indeed. It doesn’t sound like all of these prisoners to be released are exactly hardened terrorists. There’s probably a more thorough breakdown elsewhere but bit busy at work to track down a better link who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday I was wondering why they kept calling 18 year olds "boys" until I saw that it was Al Jazeera. Using any sort of weapon against other human beings is a crime in most places. The punishment is less severe if you don't succeed at killing them, but that doesn't make the culprit an angel. Imagine an 18 year old man throwing a rock at you for a second. Would you call the cops on that guy? Now imagine him with a hundred friends with their own improvised weapons rioting. Any country in the world would send in specialized security forces (that would be well equipped to handle rocks) to quell the riot and throw some people in jail until things could be sorted out. I agree that the people being released right now are probably not mastermind terrorists, but they are also not comparable to the children and their mothers who are being released by Hamas.
Doesn’t happen over here anyway, and our riot squads are pretty in demand. Hell they even help train the IDF come to think of. Rioting is like our national sport over here
You really don’t HAVE to jail such folks for years. Although yes not all of these prisoner releases fall into that category
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So... there is an missing hostage in the exchange last night. Hamas claims they cannot locate her.
Although the crisis over the release of the second group of hostages was averted following pressure from Qatar, Egypt and the United States, and after long hours of delay, the hostages were finally delivered to Israel - but one dispute was left unsolved.
Israel received 13 hostages, instead of 14, as 12-year-old Hila Rotem was released without her mother Raya Rotem, who remains in Hamas captivity, despite obligation from the terror group not to separate mothers from their children as part of the cease-fire agreement. It was also reported that, in the past two days, the Mossad has exerted pressure for the release of Hila's mother, but without success.
Prior to the release of the second group of hostages, and following the delay, Israel understood that Hamas was not going to make it easy. Hamas blamed Israel for violating the agreement, both regarding the identity of the released prisoners and the number of aid trucks entering the northern Gaza Strip. On the other hand, Israel claimed that Hamas violated its commitment to avoid family separations in the release.
Israeli officials stated that the Americans played a decisive role in implementing the truce. US President Joe Biden held two phone calls during his holiday break, one with the Emir of Qatar Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, and the other with the prime minister of Qatar, urging them to exert pressure on Hamas. Simultaneously, American representatives in the region engaged in discussions with both sides.
The 12 other Israeli hostages freed from captivity in Gaza on Saturday are: Shoshan Haran, 67, her daughter Adi Shoham, 38, and Adi’s children Yahel, 3, and Naveh, 8; Shiri Weiss, 53, and her daughter, Noga Weiss, 18; Maya Regev, 21; Emily Hand, 9 who was initially presumed to be have been killed by Hamas terrorists in Kibbutz Be’eri on October 7; Noam Or, 17, and Alma Or, 13; and Noam Avigdori, 12, and her mother Sharon Avigdori, 52.
Source
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so this is supposed to be an indictment of Israel and the IDF? This person can't have phone calls when she wants and no "health treatments". That's it?
That amount of "nothing" on both sides of this is bordering on comical. The amount of real insights journalists provide is pathetically low. It's hilarious how I can cut to ribbons whatever BS is coming out of Canadian sources.
Why wasn't the end result of the "Montreal Jewish School Shooting" ever called out?
Will any one take a hard in depth look at this woman's physical condition?
OR, is it on to the next sound bite and she will be forgotten forever?
Any photos of the "damage" in the montreal jewish school? none? ya ok guys. where are the bullets? shell casings? was it a pellet gun or a rock? what horrible criminal mastermind terror organization is suspected?
the level of investigative , insightful journalism is really super low.
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Still no word if the US girl is among those released.
Hamas has handed over a third batch of hostages to the International Committee of the Red Cross in Gaza, which is taking them to the Rafah border crossing with Egypt, Egyptian officials said.
Source
edit: She was released:
Abigail Edan, a 4-year-old with American and Israeli citizenship who was taken hostage on Oct. 7, was released to the Red Cross on Sunday, President Biden said in a news conference. The Red Cross was transporting a group of Hamas’s captives, the third of four groups planned to be exchanged for Palestinian prisoners in as many days, to Israeli authorities. Israel Defense Forces spokesman Daniel Hagari said the Red Cross, acting as an intermediary, was carrying 14 Israelis and three others. He did not provide other identifying details. Sunday’s trade was going more smoothly than Saturday’s, when the release of hostages was delayed by seven hours after allegations from Hamas that, among other things, Israel was not allowing humanitarian aid to reach parts of northern Gaza. Israeli military leaders said that after the pause, they will resume efforts to eliminate Hamas and free remaining hostages.
Source
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Good that she's out. But I wonder what is left of a four-year-old after watching both her parents being murdered.
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a stabil socity and probably solid foster parents?
for a child whose parents die in Gaza there is poverty, no meaning & unfortunately for some Hamas..
Not saying this isnt tragic for that little girl. But please let's not act as if this isnt sth that happens constantly in Gaza/Palestine..
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On November 27 2023 08:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2023 08:02 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
a stabil socity and probably solid foster parents?
for a child whose parents die in Gaza there is poverty, no meaning & unfortunately for some Hamas..
Not saying this isnt tragic for that little girl. But please let's not act as if this isnt sth that happens constantly in Gaza/Palestine.. Can you source the bolded?
constantly {adv}
ständig
constantly {adv}
unentwegt
constantly {adv}
laufend
constantly {adv}
andauernd
constantly {adv}
dauernd
constantly {adv}
fortwährend
constantly {adv}
stets
constantly {adv}
konstant
constantly {adv}
kontinuierlich
constantly {adv}
beständig
constantly {adv}
immerfort
constantly {adv}
stetig
constantly {adv}
permanent
constantly {adv}
unaufhörlich
constantly {adv}
unausgesetzt
constantly {adv}
gebetsmühlenhaft
I can, but I wont. Seeing as u post here you have Internet access. Just use it? I will not do work for you mate. You have enough time to post a lot here so you will have enough time to inform yourself. If you dont - your problem.
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I did not write people do it. I wrote that we should not do it. Those are difference sentences. You do get that, dont you?
I thought u meant that the phrase "parents in gaza are getting killed" is questionable and wanted sources for that..
I did not say anyone in here does or did do anything. I am sorry but u are clearly having bad intentions vs me and it shows..
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On November 26 2023 21:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2023 14:48 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 25 2023 11:59 WombaT wrote:On November 25 2023 05:38 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 25 2023 05:16 RvB wrote:
They're not just throwing rocks. They use slings. A sling can be a deadly weapon and kill. Ah shit, they're using slings, time to mow the lawn. I'll make my point quite clear because it's likely not to be caught, I remain concerned by the seriously lack of concern or respect for the lives of Palestinian civilian lives. All atrocities committed upon civilians (Pal or Israeli) is fucked up and to be avoided at all costs. The lengths by which the IDF's actions are justified is problematic. Indeed. It doesn’t sound like all of these prisoners to be released are exactly hardened terrorists. There’s probably a more thorough breakdown elsewhere but bit busy at work to track down a better link who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday I was wondering why they kept calling 18 year olds "boys" until I saw that it was Al Jazeera. Using any sort of weapon against other human beings is a crime in most places. The punishment is less severe if you don't succeed at killing them, but that doesn't make the culprit an angel. Imagine an 18 year old man throwing a rock at you for a second. Would you call the cops on that guy? Now imagine him with a hundred friends with their own improvised weapons rioting. Any country in the world would send in specialized security forces (that would be well equipped to handle rocks) to quell the riot and throw some people in jail until things could be sorted out. I agree that the people being released right now are probably not mastermind terrorists, but they are also not comparable to the children and their mothers who are being released by Hamas. Doesn’t happen over here anyway, and our riot squads are pretty in demand. Hell they even help train the IDF come to think of. Rioting is like our national sport over here You really don’t HAVE to jail such folks for years. Although yes not all of these prisoner releases fall into that category
My understanding was that most rioters who are being released were arrested for events over the past month or so. Pretty reasonably within the time frame that tensions are hot and they might riot again (or worse). I heard that one of the complaints from Hamas was that a lot of the guys being released were scheduled to be released in a couple of weeks anyways. (Hamas gets more bang for their hostage buck if they release prisoners with more "seniority".)
I imagine that the people who are incarcerated for years have much more serious crimes that they are being held for than rock throwing. Hence why the arrests spike temporarily during tumultuous times like this. It would be nice if there were less stabbings and car rammings that merit the longer incarcerations though.
I'm legitimately curious about how riots look like in Ireland now (especially since I didn't know before that the IDF trains with Irish police). I'm not as knowledgeable on the topic as I'm sure you are (I only hear about it tongue and cheek from a commentator I like, "The Geopolitical Irish Lad").
On a scale from "peaceful protest" to "lynch mob," where would you place the average Irish riot? Do they attempt to kill people? Damage property? Disrupt trade? Are they generally motivated by political causes? Sports games?
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On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way.
I never said that Hamas surrendering was the ONLY way to end the current war. I merely mentioned that it would be ONE (albeit unlikely) way.
I wasn't actually arguing with anyone with this series of posts though. I was merely clarifying how destroying tunnels was a legitimate and reasonable sub-objective of this war. (The posts in question: + Show Spoiler +On November 26 2023 15:51 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2023 07:04 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On November 25 2023 02:14 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 24 2023 21:57 MaGic~PhiL wrote:I mean what irks me a bit. The IDF (in their countless youtube videos) is celebrating the finding/existence of tunnels as a big "gotcha" "we told you". This doesnt sit right with me. 1) A bunch of tunnels (prebuilt by Israel according to a credible source in the former Israel PM) are not a commando central 2) Whilst Israel is throwing between 6000 and 25.000 TONS of Explosives on Gaza it is a crime that the "military Organization in Gaza" (they are obv. terrorists dont misinterpret this please) is building sth. that can maybe increase their safety a bit. Like I am a bit flabbergasted if you look at this whole "tunnel thing" in an objective, unbiased manner how you can come to the conclusion "tunnels horrible" "devastation of huge area with thousand of tons OK" Also am I the only one here who found it super amussing that the IDF showed videos with weapons (rifles) stored at an MRI machine? You dont need to be a genius to know how metal intereacts with MRIs. Question at everyone (Im curious): Did you watch "IDF youtube videos"? If so how credible did you find them? (For me the answer is: I watched like 10-12 of them; Mostly they were incredibly bad & when u fact checked them 90%+ were straight up lies/fake) + Show Spoiler + Documenting an extensive tunnel network directly under civilian infrastructure is only a gotcha for the people who just decided last week that Hamas had no connections to Al Shifa. Otherwise it's just providing evidence that there are enemy military installations where Israel is operating. Which removes the protected status of those areas under the Geneva Conventions. 1) There was an underground area built by Israel for the hospital, sure. The shoddily assembled concrete tunnels zig zagging the area were not built by Israel. 2) There seems to be a perception that Israel's goal is to kill a bunch of terrorists, fly home, and declare victory. If that was the goal, I agree that it's not a very effective defense plan and this is not the best way to go about it. The real goal could better be described as "regime change in Gaza." The Allies didn't have to kill every Nazi soldier to end WW2 in Europe, but they did have to march through Germany until Allied forces controlled the whole country. Then they installed someone else in power there to replace the Nazi regime. There are people alive today who served in the Nazi army, but Germany is nonetheless no longer a threat to Western democracy because of that regime change. You don't have to kill every member of Hamas to accomplish regime change. Heck, if Hamas just surrender tomorrow, the killing could stop altogether (minus trials for those responsible for Oct 7). The military necessity of anything is being measured by the stick of "will this help Israel take control of this area so someone else can be put in power besides Hamas." It's not that every given tunnel is a direct threat to Israel. It's that Hamas is a direct threat to Israel and they can't be removed from power unless you remove them from their bases of operation. History clearly indicates that this is not the case. I dont know how you come to this conclusion. To clarify my post, I did not mean that the entire Arab-Israel Conflict would be immediately solved and crime would disappear. I apologize for using words that could be understood to paint such a broad stroke. I meant that the current war would end. I was responding to your post about the current war and it's rationalizations. Zooming back out to the Arab-Israel Conflict as a whole, I don't believe there is any one action any one party can do to unilaterally create long term peace. A lot of people are going to have to do various things over decades to solve that. But the current war would end pretty swiftly if Hamas legitimately surrendered. And given that the current war is what is causing the high number of casualties, property damage, population displacement, etc, which are most people's main concern, and given that everyone on this thread agrees that Hamas is particularly awful to their own people and for the conflict as a whole, it seems pretty clear that their surrender would be a good thing. Not that that's likely to happen. But if it did, it would reduce the number of deaths and amount of tragedy on all sides by a huge margin. 
That said, if you'd like to have a debate on a specific topic, feel free to speak it out clearly and we can hash it out!
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On November 27 2023 12:14 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2023 21:11 WombaT wrote:On November 26 2023 14:48 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 25 2023 11:59 WombaT wrote:On November 25 2023 05:38 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 25 2023 05:16 RvB wrote:
They're not just throwing rocks. They use slings. A sling can be a deadly weapon and kill. Ah shit, they're using slings, time to mow the lawn. I'll make my point quite clear because it's likely not to be caught, I remain concerned by the seriously lack of concern or respect for the lives of Palestinian civilian lives. All atrocities committed upon civilians (Pal or Israeli) is fucked up and to be avoided at all costs. The lengths by which the IDF's actions are justified is problematic. Indeed. It doesn’t sound like all of these prisoners to be released are exactly hardened terrorists. There’s probably a more thorough breakdown elsewhere but bit busy at work to track down a better link who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday I was wondering why they kept calling 18 year olds "boys" until I saw that it was Al Jazeera. Using any sort of weapon against other human beings is a crime in most places. The punishment is less severe if you don't succeed at killing them, but that doesn't make the culprit an angel. Imagine an 18 year old man throwing a rock at you for a second. Would you call the cops on that guy? Now imagine him with a hundred friends with their own improvised weapons rioting. Any country in the world would send in specialized security forces (that would be well equipped to handle rocks) to quell the riot and throw some people in jail until things could be sorted out. I agree that the people being released right now are probably not mastermind terrorists, but they are also not comparable to the children and their mothers who are being released by Hamas. Doesn’t happen over here anyway, and our riot squads are pretty in demand. Hell they even help train the IDF come to think of. Rioting is like our national sport over here You really don’t HAVE to jail such folks for years. Although yes not all of these prisoner releases fall into that category My understanding was that most rioters who are being released were arrested for events over the past month or so. Pretty reasonably within the time frame that tensions are hot and they might riot again (or worse). I heard that one of the complaints from Hamas was that a lot of the guys being released were scheduled to be released in a couple of weeks anyways. (Hamas gets more bang for their hostage buck if they release prisoners with more "seniority".) I imagine that the people who are incarcerated for years have much more serious crimes that they are being held for than rock throwing. Hence why the arrests spike temporarily during tumultuous times like this. It would be nice if there were less stabbings and car rammings that merit the longer incarcerations though. I'm legitimately curious about how riots look like in Ireland now (especially since I didn't know before that the IDF trains with Irish police). I'm not as knowledgeable on the topic as I'm sure you are (I only hear about it tongue and cheek from a commentator I like, "The Geopolitical Irish Lad"). On a scale from "peaceful protest" to "lynch mob," where would you place the average Irish riot? Do they attempt to kill people? Damage property? Disrupt trade? Are they generally motivated by political causes? Sports games?
Most consistently during ‘Parade season’ where the Unionist community parade to commemorate William of Orange’s victory at the Battle of the Boyne. Given the whole Protestant/Catholic tension in the region this reliably delivers flashpoints on a pretty much annual basis.
It’s hard to describe, it feels almost performative at this stage, but rioters throw stones, bricks and petrol bombs (I’m not sure if they’re different from or just what we call Molotov cocktails), so there’s lethal potential. The police just tend to sit there for hours blocking projectiles and keeping the two communities apart. It’s not peaceful at all, but at the same time there doesn’t feel any true intent to grievously injure, it’s a curious cultural dance we have.
Arrests are pretty shockingly low, I guess it’s just a dance we’re used to and the police will be accused of being biased towards either side if they do apprehend people.
But because the PSNI have such consistent experience in dealing with riots, and also in containing them with essentially no casualties, they are very much in demand in training other forces around the globe. Specifically I believe in restraint and preventing escalations, which you frequently see in less experienced squads, or indeed in areas where the cultural intent isn’t necessarily in defusing things, and more in cracking heads.
It is a rather odd scenario that nobody particularly supports outside the fringes, but we’re just resigned to it being this yearly ritual.
Hope that helps!
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Norway28825 Posts
On November 27 2023 08:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2023 08:02 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
a stabil socity and probably solid foster parents?
for a child whose parents die in Gaza there is poverty, no meaning & unfortunately for some Hamas..
Not saying this isnt tragic for that little girl. But please let's not act as if this isnt sth that happens constantly in Gaza/Palestine.. Can you source the bolded?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67121414
Apparently it is common enough for wcnsf (wounded child no surviving family) to be an understandable acronym for health personell operating there.
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EPT
