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On November 27 2023 14:01 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2023 12:14 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 26 2023 21:11 WombaT wrote:On November 26 2023 14:48 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 25 2023 11:59 WombaT wrote:On November 25 2023 05:38 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 25 2023 05:16 RvB wrote:
They're not just throwing rocks. They use slings. A sling can be a deadly weapon and kill. Ah shit, they're using slings, time to mow the lawn. I'll make my point quite clear because it's likely not to be caught, I remain concerned by the seriously lack of concern or respect for the lives of Palestinian civilian lives. All atrocities committed upon civilians (Pal or Israeli) is fucked up and to be avoided at all costs. The lengths by which the IDF's actions are justified is problematic. Indeed. It doesn’t sound like all of these prisoners to be released are exactly hardened terrorists. There’s probably a more thorough breakdown elsewhere but bit busy at work to track down a better link who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday I was wondering why they kept calling 18 year olds "boys" until I saw that it was Al Jazeera. Using any sort of weapon against other human beings is a crime in most places. The punishment is less severe if you don't succeed at killing them, but that doesn't make the culprit an angel. Imagine an 18 year old man throwing a rock at you for a second. Would you call the cops on that guy? Now imagine him with a hundred friends with their own improvised weapons rioting. Any country in the world would send in specialized security forces (that would be well equipped to handle rocks) to quell the riot and throw some people in jail until things could be sorted out. I agree that the people being released right now are probably not mastermind terrorists, but they are also not comparable to the children and their mothers who are being released by Hamas. Doesn’t happen over here anyway, and our riot squads are pretty in demand. Hell they even help train the IDF come to think of. Rioting is like our national sport over here You really don’t HAVE to jail such folks for years. Although yes not all of these prisoner releases fall into that category My understanding was that most rioters who are being released were arrested for events over the past month or so. Pretty reasonably within the time frame that tensions are hot and they might riot again (or worse). I heard that one of the complaints from Hamas was that a lot of the guys being released were scheduled to be released in a couple of weeks anyways. (Hamas gets more bang for their hostage buck if they release prisoners with more "seniority".) I imagine that the people who are incarcerated for years have much more serious crimes that they are being held for than rock throwing. Hence why the arrests spike temporarily during tumultuous times like this. It would be nice if there were less stabbings and car rammings that merit the longer incarcerations though. I'm legitimately curious about how riots look like in Ireland now (especially since I didn't know before that the IDF trains with Irish police). I'm not as knowledgeable on the topic as I'm sure you are (I only hear about it tongue and cheek from a commentator I like, "The Geopolitical Irish Lad"). On a scale from "peaceful protest" to "lynch mob," where would you place the average Irish riot? Do they attempt to kill people? Damage property? Disrupt trade? Are they generally motivated by political causes? Sports games? Most consistently during ‘Parade season’ where the Unionist community parade to commemorate William of Orange’s victory at the Battle of the Boyne. Given the whole Protestant/Catholic tension in the region this reliably delivers flashpoints on a pretty much annual basis. It’s hard to describe, it feels almost performative at this stage, but rioters throw stones, bricks and petrol bombs (I’m not sure if they’re different from or just what we call Molotov cocktails), so there’s lethal potential. The police just tend to sit there for hours blocking projectiles and keeping the two communities apart. It’s not peaceful at all, but at the same time there doesn’t feel any true intent to grievously injure, it’s a curious cultural dance we have. Arrests are pretty shockingly low, I guess it’s just a dance we’re used to and the police will be accused of being biased towards either side if they do apprehend people. But because the PSNI have such consistent experience in dealing with riots, and also in containing them with essentially no casualties, they are very much in demand in training other forces around the globe. Specifically I believe in restraint and preventing escalations, which you frequently see in less experienced squads, or indeed in areas where the cultural intent isn’t necessarily in defusing things, and more in cracking heads. It is a rather odd scenario that nobody particularly supports outside the fringes, but we’re just resigned to it being this yearly ritual. Hope that helps!
Thanks for this! It's really fascinating and has led me down the rabbit hole. You are selling me on the very restrained riot control idea.
I'm not sure it's perfectly analogous because the Irish rioters don't seem to (generally) be trying to kill members of the other side (it's no intifada). It's also helpful that the PSNI know where and when "Parades" will take place to prepare. But it also seems like these things were worse in the past and have slowly sizzled down to a sort of elaborate pissing contest, so I hear where you are coming from. If we could tone things down to the level of pissing contest in the Middle East, we'd be in pretty good shape.
While I was down the rabbit hole, I noticed a big riot took place just last week. It was in the Republic of Ireland, not Northern Ireland, so I don't know if you feel comfortable commenting. It sounds like the PSNI and the Gardai coordinate and even exchange members (to what extent, I don't know) though, so I thought it might make a good current comparison.
Somehow there is a Wikipedia post on this event already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Dublin_riot
The 2023 Dublin riot took place on the evening of 23 November 2023 in Dublin, Ireland, involving incidents of vandalism, arson, looting, and assaults on gardaí (Irish police).[5] Described by gardaí as the most violent in modern Dublin history... Members of the crowd, estimated to number between 100–200 people,[8] and some of whom were carrying metal bars and wearing facial coverings (including balaclavas and hoods),[35][36] assaulted the gardaí responding to the scene, throwing fireworks and bottles at the officers.[7] Vehicles were also attacked and set on fire, including a Garda vehicle, a bus, and an empty Luas tram.[8] Shops and businesses were looted and set on fire by youths. At its peak, the rioting crowd was estimated at 500 people.[9] Several buses, Garda vehicles and a Luas tram were damaged or destroyed by arson and vandalism, and multiple shops were looted. In response, 400 gardaí were dispatched, including the largest deployment of gardaí armed with riot gear in Ireland's history.[10] By 10:00 pm, the rioters had been dispersed, with 34 arrests made that evening and further arrests made over subsequent days. Sixty gardaí were assaulted during the riot, three of whom sustained serious injuries. A witness described the rioters as "young people – late-teens, early-20s" who were being "egged on" by older people. On 24 November, 32 people (28 men and four women) appeared in court in Dublin in connection with the riot. Their charges included weapons offences, public order offences and theft of items such as clothing and cigarettes. Minister McEntee said gardaí were trawling through 6,000 hours of CCTV footage and vowed that further arrests would follow...
Do you think that the Republic of Ireland will or should keep these rioters arrested? For how long?
Edit: formatting
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On November 28 2023 03:58 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 03:46 RvB wrote:
What you're asking for was the status quo in Gaza. Access to education and enrollment is relatively high. The problem is that the curriculum contains anti semitism and glorifies violence. Israel has demanded this to be changed for years but neither Hamas nor the PA have done this. Hamas have also ruled the Strip by themselves for a while now and Israel was already loosening the blockade somewhat after Hamas signalled they were becoming less violent. That was basically their strategy. Let in more aid and give out more work permits to give Gazans and Hamas more of a stake in peace. Have you let them know that this was their strategy? Cause when they talk about their strategy that's not really the kind of things they say, instead they're more talking about how Hamas is good for them because it delegitimizes the palestinian cause and creates a division between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority that makes it less likely for Palestine to become a state. Then they draft scenario outcomes for the current situation in Gaza and they write that a scenario where the PA gets to run Gaza is worse for them than a scenario where Hamas can continue to run Gaza for that same reason. They seem a lot more concerned with Palestine not existing than they are with giving Palestinians a stake in peace. I'm also confused about this reaction to Hamas signalling they are becoming less violent that you describe, I mean Mohdoo can tell that they are genocidal maniacs similar to mass shooters from halfway across the globe, but Netanyahu is loosening the blockade because they're saying some nice things? That seems quite naive, I feel like I would be criticizing Netanyahu right now if I believed that.
Israel was fooled by Hamas. It's not a secret. It's why they pulled many of the troops from the Gaza border to the West Bank. Certainly naive and stupid but people do stupid things all the time. This is an article from the start of the conflict:
Hamas conducted a years-long campaign to fool Israel into thinking the group did not desire armed conflict and could be placated with economic incentives to maintain relative calm, a source close to the terror organization told the Reuters news agency Monday.
“Hamas gave Israel the impression that it was not ready for a fight,” the source told the agency.
“Hamas used an unprecedented intelligence tactic to mislead Israel over the last months, by giving a public impression that it was not willing to go into a fight or confrontation with Israel while preparing for this massive operation,” the source said.
The border with Gaza had been relatively quiet in recent months. Hamas sat out a deadly round of fighting between Israel and the smaller Palestinian Islamic Jihad earlier this year.
Hamas gunmen breached Israel’s border on Saturday, killing more than 700 people and taking at least another 100 hostages into Gaza during the unprecedented rampage. The terror group has also fired thousands of rockets at Israel.
The source said that as part of its preparations, the terror organization built a mock Israeli community to train for the assault in which gunmen went house-to-house in border towns Saturday, killing residents.
“Israel surely saw them but they were convinced that Hamas wasn’t keen on getting into a confrontation,” the source said.
The source said that Hamas convinced Israel that it was more interested in ensuring Gazans had work permits that allowed them to enter Israel, where they earned higher salaries than they would in the enclave.
“Hamas was able to build a whole image that it was not ready for a military adventure against Israel,” the source said.
The source said that many leaders of the terror group were not told of the planned attack in order to prevent it leaking to Israel. In addition, the approximately 1,000 terrorists involved in the devastating assault were not told exactly what they were training for.
An unnamed Israeli security source told the news outlet that the security services had fallen for the ruse.
“They caused us to think they wanted money,” the Israeli source said. “And all the time they were involved in exercises or drills until they ran riot.”
The report said that Hamas’s apparent refusal to become involved in recent rounds of fighting, even as Palestinian Islamic Jihad fired rockets at Israel, was part of the subterfuge.
Former national security adviser Yaakov Amidror told Reuters that some countries allied with the Jewish state had bought into the lie, telling Jerusalem that Hamas was showing “more responsibility.”
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“We stupidly began to believe that it was true,” he said. “So, we made a mistake. We are not going to make this mistake again and we will destroy Hamas, slowly but surely.”
www.timesofisrael.com
Economic incentives were part of Israel's strategy to maintain stability:
Israel will raise the quota of work permits for Gazan Palestinians to 17,000 next week, expanding a policy that defense officials view as a means of maintaining quiet on the country’s southern front.
An additional 1,500 permits are to be added, Israel’s military liaison office to the Palestinians, widely known by its acronym COGAT, said Thursday. The move came following an assessment by Defense Minister Benny Gantz.
The move is set to begin next week, after Rosh Hashanah, COGAT said in a statement.
The Defense Ministry has signed off on a tentative plan to raise the number of Gaza permits to 20,000, an unprecedented increase. In mid-2021, just 7,000 Gaza Palestinians had permits to work or trade in Israel.
“All the civilian steps toward Gaza are dependent on continued security stability,” COGAT said.
www.timesofisrael.com
Qatar will raise its yearly aid to Gaza to $360 million, the conservative Gulf monarchy’s government announced on Sunday.
“This grant…will be used to pay employees’ salaries, provide financial aid to needy families, and operate power stations to limit the worsening of the humanitarian situation, and difficult living conditions in the Strip,” the Qatari government said in a statement carried by its state-owned mouthpieces.
No official figures on the total sum from last year were available, although some Palestinian media sites claimed that around $240 million was handed out by Doha in 2020.
Hamas officials announced the increase in mid-January, but Qatari authorities did not confirm the budget boost until Sunday.
With Israel’s approval, Qatar since 2018 has periodically provided millions of dollars in cash to Gaza’s Hamas rulers to pay for fuel for the Strip’s power plant, allow the group to pay its civil servants, and provide aid to tens of thousands of impoverished families.
....
While Israel does not have official relations with Qatar, which allegedly also enjoys close ties to Iran and Hezbollah, Israeli officials quietly support the continuation of Qatari aid to the Gaza Strip as a means of relieving the enclave’s humanitarian crisis.
www.timesofisrael.com
On November 28 2023 08:41 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 03:46 RvB wrote:On November 28 2023 01:25 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 01:21 RvB wrote:On November 27 2023 23:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. "If Hamas does not surrender, it is reasonable to try to reduce the likelihood Hamas will be able to commit atrocities like October 7. I imagine his issue is less so labelling Hamas as problematic and more so this framing. If what Hamas did on Oct 7 was an atrocity, then what on Earth do we call what the IDF has done for 75 years? No one is against removing Hamas from the equation, the problems are A) How we go about doing that (instead of carpet bombing a civilian dense area) B) What we do beyond that (i.e. how do we reform Israeli government) For my part, I'm confused why we think inflicting further terror on people will reduce cooperation by Gazans towards Hamas instead of breeding more resistance fighters. So how do you do A without removing them by force? There is force that isn't bombing entire city blocks? Many (not necessarily in the thread) call for a ceasefire. A ceasefire now means Hamas stays in charge of the Gaza Strip. If you do not want that then you'd need to find a way to remove them without force. If you're of the opinion that it's okay for Israel to remove Hamas militarily but with less bombing then I can understand that. (Almost) No one here is complaining that Israel shouldn't remove Hamas. Its the way they are going about it that is the problem. If Israel had tried to remove Hamas militarily without bombing the entire Gaza strip into a pile of rubble they would have found more longer term support. Both in this thread and internationally. Again, Israel fighting Hamas is not a problem for (almost) everyone. The manner in which they are waging the fight is.
For some maybe but the ease with which the worst kinds of human rights abuses are thrown at Israel makes me doubt that it has a significant effect.
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Northern Ireland24392 Posts
On November 28 2023 12:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 12:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 11:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop.
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. I honestly just don't understand what are you trying to say here. Are you saying that Israel cannot possibly stop colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians? Like, there is some divine power compelling them to do it, or something? Or do you simply refuse to believe that not colonizing Palestine and not killing Palestinians could be an effective way to reduce radicalization and lead towards peace in the region? Like, I'm not trying to be 'edgy' or anything. I'm just struggling to understand why you and Mohdoo and Cerebrate and the few other posters arguing what seem like pretty much the same points refuse interto accept that not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine is an option at all, even if you don't agree that it might be a good option, yet at the same time you insist that Hamas must be removed even if history shows that we'd simply have Hamas 2.0 take their place if Israel were to successfully remove them using the methods that they have been using for the past 60 years or so. No this is the problem with you and many people here. I’m asking a question to ask a question and maybe start some interesting discussion or an extremely complicated situation. The non stop gotcha questions and pointless. And your bragging about your amazing understanding of the situation and inability to get down from a 100000 ft view that is extraordinary only in its complete one sidedness. I'm really trying to give you the benefit of doubt, here. What do you think is so complicated about the Israeli settlement expansion? What makes you think that stopping demolishing of Palestinian homes and moving radical colonists in is not a straightforward improvement over the status quo? I don’t think that’s complicated nor do I think Israel should continue doing it. I’m been clear and consistent on that. In fact it’s mind boggling that you think whatever crazy assumptions you have made you truly believe are fact. Also, it’s no where near and answer to my question. Edit: You’ve just won the war and stopped from being whiped off the map. What now with the territory held by multiple countries. Do you give it back even though you do not have peace? Do you allow the Palestinians to start a brand new country outside you borders? How do they defend themselves against their at this time current oppressors? Do you just make Israel bigger and try to fully integrate them? If so how, multicultural approach, melting pot, something else? Tons of places for you to go.
Perhaps many of us don’t know, nor indeed cannot know what subsequent path would lead to better results and towards peace, so many variables, so many actors and so much unpredictability.
I don’t think anyone is really under any illusions that halting/reverting Israeli settlements will on its own defuse the ticking bomb. Merely that it is a step in the right direction, and somewhat consistent with how conflict defusal tends to work. Or, alternatively, or in addition that it is a more moral course of action to take. It’s kind of the bare minimum really.
Like at this juncture I’m unsure if Gazans will ever, or at least within a reasonable timeframe be able to have some kind of cordial relations with Israelis, so to have a suggestion as to how to emerge from the current scenario into something more peaceful eludes me.
And that’s just one unknown. One doesn’t need to have some oven-ready fully-fledged peace plan to have a negativeopinion on one specific facet of relations
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On November 28 2023 16:44 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 03:58 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2023 03:46 RvB wrote:
What you're asking for was the status quo in Gaza. Access to education and enrollment is relatively high. The problem is that the curriculum contains anti semitism and glorifies violence. Israel has demanded this to be changed for years but neither Hamas nor the PA have done this. Hamas have also ruled the Strip by themselves for a while now and Israel was already loosening the blockade somewhat after Hamas signalled they were becoming less violent. That was basically their strategy. Let in more aid and give out more work permits to give Gazans and Hamas more of a stake in peace. Have you let them know that this was their strategy? Cause when they talk about their strategy that's not really the kind of things they say, instead they're more talking about how Hamas is good for them because it delegitimizes the palestinian cause and creates a division between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority that makes it less likely for Palestine to become a state. Then they draft scenario outcomes for the current situation in Gaza and they write that a scenario where the PA gets to run Gaza is worse for them than a scenario where Hamas can continue to run Gaza for that same reason. They seem a lot more concerned with Palestine not existing than they are with giving Palestinians a stake in peace. I'm also confused about this reaction to Hamas signalling they are becoming less violent that you describe, I mean Mohdoo can tell that they are genocidal maniacs similar to mass shooters from halfway across the globe, but Netanyahu is loosening the blockade because they're saying some nice things? That seems quite naive, I feel like I would be criticizing Netanyahu right now if I believed that. Israel was fooled by Hamas. It's not a secret. It's why they pulled many of the troops from the Gaza border to the West Bank. Certainly naive and stupid but people do stupid things all the time. This is an article from the start of the conflict:
Your theory of what was happening includes a group of ministers that is far right even within the context of Israel deciding that they want to increase the chances of peace happening with Palestinians, even though neither their actions of providing massive state support to the settlers in the West Bank, nor every other declaration by them seems to indicate that. As a reminder, among a comically large number of examples, you have Netanyahu going to the UN presenting a map of Israel which doesn't include Palestine, you have one of his ministers, a settler himself, talking about how there's no such thing as a Palestinian people, and that they should all either leave, submit to Israel's rule, or martyr themselves, you have another one of his ministers, who didn't get to be conscripted into the IDF because he was deemed too anti-Palestinian (!), hanging a portrait of Baruch Goldstein, a mass shooter who killed Palestinians in a mosque, in his house... And all of that was before Oct 7th, you can imagine what it's like now.
Considering all that, I expect it to be more likely that you're the one who's being fooled here, rather than Benyamin Netanyahu.
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On November 28 2023 12:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 12:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 11:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop.
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. I honestly just don't understand what are you trying to say here. Are you saying that Israel cannot possibly stop colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians? Like, there is some divine power compelling them to do it, or something? Or do you simply refuse to believe that not colonizing Palestine and not killing Palestinians could be an effective way to reduce radicalization and lead towards peace in the region? Like, I'm not trying to be 'edgy' or anything. I'm just struggling to understand why you and Mohdoo and Cerebrate and the few other posters arguing what seem like pretty much the same points refuse interto accept that not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine is an option at all, even if you don't agree that it might be a good option, yet at the same time you insist that Hamas must be removed even if history shows that we'd simply have Hamas 2.0 take their place if Israel were to successfully remove them using the methods that they have been using for the past 60 years or so. No this is the problem with you and many people here. I’m asking a question to ask a question and maybe start some interesting discussion or an extremely complicated situation. The non stop gotcha questions and pointless. And your bragging about your amazing understanding of the situation and inability to get down from a 100000 ft view that is extraordinary only in its complete one sidedness. I'm really trying to give you the benefit of doubt, here. What do you think is so complicated about the Israeli settlement expansion? What makes you think that stopping demolishing of Palestinian homes and moving radical colonists in is not a straightforward improvement over the status quo? I don’t think that’s complicated nor do I think Israel should continue doing it. I’m been clear and consistent on that. In fact it’s mind boggling that you think whatever crazy assumptions you have made you truly believe are fact. Also, it’s no where near and answer to my question. Edit: You’ve just won the war and stopped from being whiped off the map. What now with the territory held by multiple countries. Do you give it back even though you do not have peace? Do you allow the Palestinians to start a brand new country outside you borders? How do they defend themselves against their at this time current oppressors? Do you just make Israel bigger and try to fully integrate them? If so how, multicultural approach, melting pot, something else? Tons of places for you to go.
I'm confused why the end of the 6-day war is your starting point for when someone should come up with a peace plan. I got a better gotcha for ya. We go back to 1947 and instead of putting Zionists in Zion, we give them Alaska instead.
Or maybe we go to 1992 and immediately after the Oslo accords we enact a strong 2-state policy and dismantle settlements in Gaza and West Bank. We allow the Palestinians to have full self-government and establish their own international relations. When Hamas does a bombing, we deal with that as a criminal organisation doing criminal things, rather than an act of water by all Palestinians.
Would any of this work? Who knows. It's a totally pointless exercise because we don't have a time machine nor the power to enact anything like this if we did. But if you want to deal in what-ifs, I don't think a very low bar of "don't start the implementation of an ethnostate in 1967" is a bad suggestion for your weird scenario.
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Northern Ireland24392 Posts
On November 28 2023 15:31 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2023 14:01 WombaT wrote:On November 27 2023 12:14 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 26 2023 21:11 WombaT wrote:On November 26 2023 14:48 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 25 2023 11:59 WombaT wrote:On November 25 2023 05:38 Cricketer12 wrote:On November 25 2023 05:16 RvB wrote:
They're not just throwing rocks. They use slings. A sling can be a deadly weapon and kill. Ah shit, they're using slings, time to mow the lawn. I'll make my point quite clear because it's likely not to be caught, I remain concerned by the seriously lack of concern or respect for the lives of Palestinian civilian lives. All atrocities committed upon civilians (Pal or Israeli) is fucked up and to be avoided at all costs. The lengths by which the IDF's actions are justified is problematic. Indeed. It doesn’t sound like all of these prisoners to be released are exactly hardened terrorists. There’s probably a more thorough breakdown elsewhere but bit busy at work to track down a better link who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday I was wondering why they kept calling 18 year olds "boys" until I saw that it was Al Jazeera. Using any sort of weapon against other human beings is a crime in most places. The punishment is less severe if you don't succeed at killing them, but that doesn't make the culprit an angel. Imagine an 18 year old man throwing a rock at you for a second. Would you call the cops on that guy? Now imagine him with a hundred friends with their own improvised weapons rioting. Any country in the world would send in specialized security forces (that would be well equipped to handle rocks) to quell the riot and throw some people in jail until things could be sorted out. I agree that the people being released right now are probably not mastermind terrorists, but they are also not comparable to the children and their mothers who are being released by Hamas. Doesn’t happen over here anyway, and our riot squads are pretty in demand. Hell they even help train the IDF come to think of. Rioting is like our national sport over here You really don’t HAVE to jail such folks for years. Although yes not all of these prisoner releases fall into that category My understanding was that most rioters who are being released were arrested for events over the past month or so. Pretty reasonably within the time frame that tensions are hot and they might riot again (or worse). I heard that one of the complaints from Hamas was that a lot of the guys being released were scheduled to be released in a couple of weeks anyways. (Hamas gets more bang for their hostage buck if they release prisoners with more "seniority".) I imagine that the people who are incarcerated for years have much more serious crimes that they are being held for than rock throwing. Hence why the arrests spike temporarily during tumultuous times like this. It would be nice if there were less stabbings and car rammings that merit the longer incarcerations though. I'm legitimately curious about how riots look like in Ireland now (especially since I didn't know before that the IDF trains with Irish police). I'm not as knowledgeable on the topic as I'm sure you are (I only hear about it tongue and cheek from a commentator I like, "The Geopolitical Irish Lad"). On a scale from "peaceful protest" to "lynch mob," where would you place the average Irish riot? Do they attempt to kill people? Damage property? Disrupt trade? Are they generally motivated by political causes? Sports games? Most consistently during ‘Parade season’ where the Unionist community parade to commemorate William of Orange’s victory at the Battle of the Boyne. Given the whole Protestant/Catholic tension in the region this reliably delivers flashpoints on a pretty much annual basis. It’s hard to describe, it feels almost performative at this stage, but rioters throw stones, bricks and petrol bombs (I’m not sure if they’re different from or just what we call Molotov cocktails), so there’s lethal potential. The police just tend to sit there for hours blocking projectiles and keeping the two communities apart. It’s not peaceful at all, but at the same time there doesn’t feel any true intent to grievously injure, it’s a curious cultural dance we have. Arrests are pretty shockingly low, I guess it’s just a dance we’re used to and the police will be accused of being biased towards either side if they do apprehend people. But because the PSNI have such consistent experience in dealing with riots, and also in containing them with essentially no casualties, they are very much in demand in training other forces around the globe. Specifically I believe in restraint and preventing escalations, which you frequently see in less experienced squads, or indeed in areas where the cultural intent isn’t necessarily in defusing things, and more in cracking heads. It is a rather odd scenario that nobody particularly supports outside the fringes, but we’re just resigned to it being this yearly ritual. Hope that helps! Thanks for this! It's really fascinating and has led me down the rabbit hole. You are selling me on the very restrained riot control idea. I'm not sure it's perfectly analogous because the Irish rioters don't seem to (generally) be trying to kill members of the other side (it's no intifada). It's also helpful that the PSNI know where and when "Parades" will take place to prepare. But it also seems like these things were worse in the past and have slowly sizzled down to a sort of elaborate pissing contest, so I hear where you are coming from. If we could tone things down to the level of pissing contest in the Middle East, we'd be in pretty good shape. While I was down the rabbit hole, I noticed a big riot took place just last week. It was in the Republic of Ireland, not Northern Ireland, so I don't know if you feel comfortable commenting. It sounds like the PSNI and the Gardai coordinate and even exchange members (to what extent, I don't know) though, so I thought it might make a good current comparison. Somehow there is a Wikipedia post on this event already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Dublin_riotShow nested quote +The 2023 Dublin riot took place on the evening of 23 November 2023 in Dublin, Ireland, involving incidents of vandalism, arson, looting, and assaults on gardaí (Irish police).[5] Described by gardaí as the most violent in modern Dublin history... Show nested quote +Members of the crowd, estimated to number between 100–200 people,[8] and some of whom were carrying metal bars and wearing facial coverings (including balaclavas and hoods),[35][36] assaulted the gardaí responding to the scene, throwing fireworks and bottles at the officers.[7] Vehicles were also attacked and set on fire, including a Garda vehicle, a bus, and an empty Luas tram.[8] Shops and businesses were looted and set on fire by youths. Show nested quote +At its peak, the rioting crowd was estimated at 500 people.[9] Several buses, Garda vehicles and a Luas tram were damaged or destroyed by arson and vandalism, and multiple shops were looted. In response, 400 gardaí were dispatched, including the largest deployment of gardaí armed with riot gear in Ireland's history.[10] By 10:00 pm, the rioters had been dispersed, with 34 arrests made that evening and further arrests made over subsequent days. Sixty gardaí were assaulted during the riot, three of whom sustained serious injuries. Show nested quote +A witness described the rioters as "young people – late-teens, early-20s" who were being "egged on" by older people. Show nested quote +On 24 November, 32 people (28 men and four women) appeared in court in Dublin in connection with the riot. Their charges included weapons offences, public order offences and theft of items such as clothing and cigarettes. Show nested quote +Minister McEntee said gardaí were trawling through 6,000 hours of CCTV footage and vowed that further arrests would follow... Do you think that the Republic of Ireland will or should keep these rioters arrested? For how long? Edit: formatting
Yeah I don’t think many things in international politics are perfectly analogous, and this is one such area, although that isn’t to say there aren’t things to be learned from similar, but different scenarios.
The rationale, and one I tend to agree with is that most riots are pretty spontaneous outbursts of human anger, and you’re left with two defusal options. Crush it overwhelmingly, which is too politically unpalatable to do in most locales, or contain it with enforcement who effectively just have to suck it up until it burns out of juice.
Almost the worst thing you can do is half-arsed crushing, or attempting it when you can’t actually do it. It merely inflames an already volatile scenario. Indeed, prior to that that is often how you see peaceful protests morph into riots.
As per the recent riots in Dublin, my partner is from there, know many folks down there. Quite a typical riot in a place that doesn’t have frequent riots. In this instance an already festering anti-immigrant sentiment exploded after multiple stabbings from a purported immigrant occurred (I’ve been a bit out of the loop so I’m not sure their background is confirmed). Us Northerners had to donate some of our equipment!
I’m unsure what the correct arrest/not arrest and what subsequent level of incarceration is appropriate as I’m kind of subject to bias on the subject and yet to figure out a particularly consistent way out of that bind.
Given peaceful protests escalate to riots given the behaviour of law enforcement oftentimes, and I’m pro-protest, but equally leniency also enables intimidatory minorities to feel emboldened to do something like January 6th. But aside from ‘do I agree with the cause’ I can’t find a huge amount of functional difference there so that’s something I struggle to reconcile.
Glad to be of service with the odd bit of info from Northern Ireland, it’s such a fucking basket case of a place that if there’s a silver lining to be found that’s it!
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On November 28 2023 17:18 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 12:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 12:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 11:51 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:
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What policy would have you enacted since the six day war?
How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. I honestly just don't understand what are you trying to say here. Are you saying that Israel cannot possibly stop colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians? Like, there is some divine power compelling them to do it, or something? Or do you simply refuse to believe that not colonizing Palestine and not killing Palestinians could be an effective way to reduce radicalization and lead towards peace in the region? Like, I'm not trying to be 'edgy' or anything. I'm just struggling to understand why you and Mohdoo and Cerebrate and the few other posters arguing what seem like pretty much the same points refuse interto accept that not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine is an option at all, even if you don't agree that it might be a good option, yet at the same time you insist that Hamas must be removed even if history shows that we'd simply have Hamas 2.0 take their place if Israel were to successfully remove them using the methods that they have been using for the past 60 years or so. No this is the problem with you and many people here. I’m asking a question to ask a question and maybe start some interesting discussion or an extremely complicated situation. The non stop gotcha questions and pointless. And your bragging about your amazing understanding of the situation and inability to get down from a 100000 ft view that is extraordinary only in its complete one sidedness. I'm really trying to give you the benefit of doubt, here. What do you think is so complicated about the Israeli settlement expansion? What makes you think that stopping demolishing of Palestinian homes and moving radical colonists in is not a straightforward improvement over the status quo? I don’t think that’s complicated nor do I think Israel should continue doing it. I’m been clear and consistent on that. In fact it’s mind boggling that you think whatever crazy assumptions you have made you truly believe are fact. Also, it’s no where near and answer to my question. Edit: You’ve just won the war and stopped from being whiped off the map. What now with the territory held by multiple countries. Do you give it back even though you do not have peace? Do you allow the Palestinians to start a brand new country outside you borders? How do they defend themselves against their at this time current oppressors? Do you just make Israel bigger and try to fully integrate them? If so how, multicultural approach, melting pot, something else? Tons of places for you to go. I'm confused why the end of the 6-day war is your starting point for when someone should come up with a peace plan. I got a better gotcha for ya. We go back to 1947 and instead of putting Zionists in Zion, we give them Alaska instead. Or maybe we go to 1992 and immediately after the Oslo accords we enact a strong 2-state policy and dismantle settlements in Gaza and West Bank. We allow the Palestinians to have full self-government and establish their own international relations. When Hamas does a bombing, we deal with that as a criminal organisation doing criminal things, rather than an act of water by all Palestinians. Would any of this work? Who knows. It's a totally pointless exercise because we don't have a time machine nor the power to enact anything like this if we did. But if you want to deal in what-ifs, I don't think a very low bar of "don't start the implementation of an ethnostate in 1967" is a bad suggestion for your weird scenario.
1947, why would we take all the people living in Israel and move them to Alaska? It was people who lived in Israel that created the state of Israel and were forced to immediately defend it. The reaction to that by the Muslim community was to ethnically cleanse jews from all the surrounding countries and a huge portion of them also ended up in Israel.
1992, dismantle settlements = ethnically cleanse the jews. I know it's a nasty word, but that would be what it is. So are we against ethnically cleansing or not? Or is it only okay to ethnically cleanse the jews? Every other middle eastern country did it and most people just seem to shrug.
Gaza was self-governed. They chose Hamas. Hamas consolidated their power by killing off the more moderate leaders. Hamas was the government of Gaza when it attacked Israel on Oct 7th. Israel responded as a nation does when it is attacked by another nation.
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Canada11321 Posts
On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:On November 27 2023 16:07 Salazarz wrote:On November 27 2023 15:00 Mohdoo wrote:On November 26 2023 18:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Cerebrate1 with the "I'm against evil people" hot take again. It must be a tough life siding against comic book villains and having to defend that point of view against people who think that maybe other paths out of the conflict are more likely to materialize. No, Hamas has to surrender, there is no other way, and until then tens of thousands of civilians must die. It's the only way. Iran and Qatar disarming/ejecting Hamas internally is by far the closest to a pacifist solution we could ever dream of. Nothing else comes close. How about Israel stops colonizing Palestine and killing Palestinians. I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left. When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death. However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine?
Ariel Sharon's unilateral disengagement? No peace negotiations were happening, so they just left. Sent soldiers to forcibly eject Israeli settlers and turn over the Gazan Strip? Following that, Hamas was elected, rockets were launched into Israel, and a truck bomb exploded killing 19 and injuring 85.
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On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2023 07:45 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I addressed that. Hamas has already responded to that possibility by indicating they will continue to try to replicate October 7 regardless of any concessions Israel makes. They specified Israel occupying any non-zero amount of land is a deal breaker and that they will continue killing Israelis until none are left.
When I compare the population of Israel to the population of Hamas, even if we somehow assumed Iran and Qatar were forced to kill every single member of Hamas, I think that still ends up being a lot less total death.
However, I think we can agree it’s unlikely Iran and Qatar would need to kill every single member. Sorry if I don't follow where you get your reasoning from, so maybe you can elaborate. Has Israel ever tried not killing Palestinians and not colonizing Palestine? What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged. Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time.
In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies.
We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default.
We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies.
A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with.
You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view.
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On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967.
By choosing a date from 55 years ago you allow any actions during that period to be "oppression" and you can then build a case to justify violence. I can do it with Japan. the USA has "oppressed" Japan since 1945.Now ,any Japanese terror organization's violence against the USA is understandable and has some moral good. And, of course, you can do it with the actions of Hamas by picking 1967 or 1947 or just about any date from many decades ago.
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On November 28 2023 23:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. I can do it with Japan. the USA has "oppressed" Japan since 1945.
Well, it is not true that the USA has "oppressed" Japan since 1945.
This is not to single you out, a large cohort of people think it's very impressive that arguments that refer to what happened in the real world look bad if you apply them to something that didn't happen in the real world. That's not impressive, that's how reality works.
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On November 28 2023 23:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. By choosing a date from 55 years ago you allow any actions during that period to be "oppression" and you can then build a case to justify violence. I can do it with Japan. the USA has "oppressed" Japan since 1945.Now ,any Japanese terror organization's violence against the USA is understandable and has some moral good. And, of course, you can do it with the actions of Hamas by picking 1967 or 1947 or just about any date from many decades ago. I picked 1967 because that is when the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank started. Which would eventually lead to the first Intifada and the creation of Hamas.
The existence of Hamas today is a direct result of Israel's occupation post 1967.
Your analogy makes absolutely no sense tho since the US isn't oppressing Japan or the Japanese. If the US instituted an apartheid regime in Japan following the end of WW2 then you might have a point.
Ofcourse I'm using history to justify Hamas (not that Hamas is justified in the suffering they inflict, lets be clear here). That is how reality works. Decades of oppression leads to 'freedom fighters' who in desperation turn to terrorism.
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On November 28 2023 23:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 23:46 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 23:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. By choosing a date from 55 years ago you allow any actions during that period to be "oppression" and you can then build a case to justify violence. I can do it with Japan. the USA has "oppressed" Japan since 1945.Now ,any Japanese terror organization's violence against the USA is understandable and has some moral good. And, of course, you can do it with the actions of Hamas by picking 1967 or 1947 or just about any date from many decades ago. I picked 1967 because that is when the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank started. Which would eventually lead to the first Intifada and the creation of Hamas. The existence of Hamas today is a direct result of Israel's occupation post 1967. Your analogy makes absolutely no sense tho since the US isn't oppressing Japan or the Japanese. If the US instituted an apartheid regime in Japan following the end of WW2 then you might have a point. And how should have they handled it and what would be different now? We've been over this before. How about not oppressing and ethnic cleaning the population.
Would some people still hate Jews and Israel? Sure. Would it be as bad as it is today? Maybe, Maybe not. We don't know because we don't have a time machine to find out. But since WW2 was brought up. The Allies didn't oppress Japan. They didn't oppress Germany. Neither were ethnically cleansed or turned into lesser people. And here we are at peace with both.
So maybe, just maybe tolerance wins over oppression in the long run.
What we do know is that what Israel did doesn't seem to be working because its still going on today and will go on in the future.
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On November 28 2023 23:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 19:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 28 2023 11:19 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 11:12 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:43 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 10:24 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 10:00 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 08:42 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2023 08:07 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
What I am saying is that Hamas has participated in interviews and reiterated any concessions by Israel will be insufficient and that it is essential for Israel to be entirely wiped out and all Jews killed. These interviews have occurred a few different times since October 7 and I am not seeing any indication that perspective has shifted. Aside from interviews, they have otherwise indicated their 0-Jew goal remains unchanged.
Has Hamas has made adjustments to their mission statement? If they have, I would be happy to see that. Are you saying Iran and Qatar dismantling Hamas internally and working with international partners to replace them would be worse than keeping Hamas around? Iran and Qatar have been involved with a lot of the hostage negotiation, so it feels possible they would be able to work towards an alternative to Hamas. I still don't follow. Are you saying that Hamas is not a response to Israel's colonization of Palestine and killing of Palestinians? As far as I am aware, they became relevant after other Palestinian resistance movements failed at stopping Israel's killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, so if the goal really was to achieve peace rather than justify further killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine, stopping killing of Palestinians and colonization of Palestine seems like a better way to achieving peace than continuing to do these things. Of course, Israel themselves has said that peace in the region isn't actually what they're after and colonization of Palestine is their primary aim, so if we are going to take Hamas' words at face value, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with Israel -- especially since they're doing a much better job of colonizing Palestine than Hamas is of killing all Jews. His point is that Hamas has said they will not stop fighting Israel, no matter what Israel does. Stopping their oppression of Palestinians will not stop Hamas from trying to kill every last one of them. And therefor there is no reason for Israel to stop what they are doing, because they can never do enough to make Hamas stop. But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next. Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. What policy would have you enacted since the six day war? How about 'no apartheid or ethnic cleansings' as a starting point? The don’t do bad stuff answer you and others keep giving is really deep and edgy. Very impressive. I'm even more confused now. What is so 'edgy' about being against apartheid and ethnic cleansing? You asked for policy changes Israel should have implemented, I think not being apartheid and not carrying out ethnic cleansings would be a more effective policy towards peace and their own security than being apartheid and carrying out ethnic cleansings. If you disagree with that, you can go ahead and explain why; otherwise, why did you even ask that question if you're not interested in the answers? No I asked what you would have done, and you dodged with what you wouldn’t do using the edgiest words possible. I’m sure you would have got some thumbs up on Reddit, it was very cool… Edit: you can even just take those two points and say what you would have done differently and how it would work better. This is like the easiest question ever, you have the bonus of hindsight. And yet nothing every time. In regards to a solution to this conflict, "don't do evil" is the appropriate way forward. It happens to be my fundamental approach to life as I've even put the idea in my description box: "If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing." It applies perfectly to Israel's policies. We do right in life not only for the sake of doing right (although this is a good approach), we do right also because it leads to a better outcome than doing wrong. Not stealing leads to better outcomes than stealing does. Not killing people leads to better outcomes than killing people does. While there are rare exceptions to these statements, generally they're true, and so to make an exception to the rule it's always required to prove that the exception is preferable over the rule. The rule is true by default. We have to assume that Palestine has a better future after an end has been put to Israel's worst policies and they've been replaced with good policies. A lack of oppression must be assumed to lead to better outcomes by default. Israel's Apartheid and ethnic cleansing must therefore end, and only then can we see how these policy changes bear fruits. We can't see the fruits of goodness if good deeds aren't being done to begin with. You'll always be left asking "but how will this get rid of Hamas?" if you can't accept that some things solve themselves naturally when people are given a fair opportunity to better their circumstances. You're asking a question that is inherently unfair from the Palestinians' point of view. I do not believe that they will be given a fair opportunity. I like the just love approach. I was very excited to see how Mexico's hugs not bombs approach would work. Spoiler is that it didn't work well at all. The cartels just took more and there were some atrocities (much smaller than Oct7th) which created a political situation where the people demanded the police and military do something. Hamas is more powerful within Gaza than the Cartels are in Mexico, they are the government. They are the ones choosing the education and it is a education of hate where they are taught how evil outsiders are and it is their religious duty to kill them all. An earlier point you made I agree with which is about how the extreme power imbalance makes the existential fear of being wiped not the most realistic fear. However, I do not know how realistic unfearful you can be when a group just committed the worst mass murder (zero military targets) and it was celebrated with the promise of more. You have the US as a very shaky ally especially in the time of Trump where he is one oil deal from switching sides or even one wrong comment from a Jewish celebrity.
I'd like to turn this argument around. Should Palestinians follow a "just love" approach towards Israel? Would that help end their oppression?
The problem with this reasoning is that, if the same approach doesn't work for Israel against Hamas, then how would it work for Palestinians against the Israeli administration? If it doesn't work one way, then how would it work in the opposite direction?
This essentially explains why Palestinians have no path out of their oppression. And if they have no path, then we can understand why there can only be a path of escalating violence. Israelis aren't treating Palestinians with dignity and respect, so then how can we expect Palestinians to treat Israelis with dignity and respect?
The existence of Hamas can be explained by the impossibilities presented by Israel.
I'd also like to say that drug cartels don't exist in a vacuum either. I like to give the example of Capone, who's eventual reign and terror was fueled by the government's prohibition policies. He grew powerful because people had no way out of the impossibility presented by the government.
Drug cartels are of the same nature, they exist because there's a government that presents only impossibilities. As drugs become more freely accessible to the public, and drug distribution therefore becomes more a matter of the marketplace, that effectively puts many drug lords out of business unless they participate in the same market, now legally. They're incentivized to enrich themselves through legal means.
This is how we know that the war on drugs enables and effectively creates drug cartels. It's because demand doesn't just magically disappear.
Hamas might well be another consequence of the impossibility presented by Israel. What alternative do Palestinians realistically have? Where's the path out of their oppression?
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On November 29 2023 00:08 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2023 23:54 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 23:48 JimmiC wrote:On November 28 2023 23:46 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2023 23:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 28 2023 08:47 Gorsameth wrote:
But that conveniently ignores the entire history of Israel's oppression of Palestinians and that obviously they are not going to just forgive Israel from one day to the next.
Hamas as an organisation is born out of Israel's oppression since the six day war of 1967. By choosing a date from 55 years ago you allow any actions during that period to be "oppression" and you can then build a case to justify violence. I can do it with Japan. the USA has "oppressed" Japan since 1945.Now ,any Japanese terror organization's violence against the USA is understandable and has some moral good. And, of course, you can do it with the actions of Hamas by picking 1967 or 1947 or just about any date from many decades ago. I picked 1967 because that is when the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank started. Which would eventually lead to the first Intifada and the creation of Hamas. The existence of Hamas today is a direct result of Israel's occupation post 1967. Your analogy makes absolutely no sense tho since the US isn't oppressing Japan or the Japanese. If the US instituted an apartheid regime in Japan following the end of WW2 then you might have a point. And how should have they handled it and what would be different now? We've been over this before. How about not oppressing and ethnic cleaning the population. Would some people still hate Jews and Israel? Sure. Would it be as bad as it is today? Maybe, Maybe not. We don't know because we don't have a time machine to find out. But since WW2 was brought up. The Allies didn't oppress Japan. They didn't oppress Germany. Neither were ethnically cleansed or turned into lesser people. And here we are at peace with both. So maybe, just maybe tolerance wins over oppression in the long run. What we do know is that what Israel did doesn't seem to be working because its still going on today and will go on in the future. Actually you continue to say nothing while somehow feeling morally superior. It is as if you guys believe there was a country of Palestine full of milk and honey and then the Israeli's showed up stole it all, are super bad guys, and it is has been bad ever since. Do you angry white knights even know the very basics of the history? I guess full blown ignorance would explain a lot. So after Israel stopped the other countries from wiping it off the map, should they have just given the land back to people who were oppressing the Palestinians before it? (because this is what was actually happening) Just straight up Annex and integrate it? What is the big obvious solution?? Yes either one? The big obvious solution is to not fucking oppress and ethnically cleanse them.
If you want to keep the land then properly integrate it and the people. Let them share in the quality of life and prosperity of Israel and let them live as full and equal citizen who, not being oppressed, have a lot less reason to hate Israel.
Or if your not going to treat the inhabitants as actual people then gtfo and look to yourself. Israel showed the world they are not to be fucked with. Message send, go back home.
Again, I point to WW2. Some borders shifted sure but somehow the allies managed to cross the unbelievable low bar of not ethnically cleansing and oppressing the other side until they were completely out of options and in their desperation turned to terrorism.
The fact that you consider this utterly low bar an impossible obstacle for Israel to cross because their neighbours were once mean to them is baffling.
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EPT
