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OBVIOUSLY we will help any progressive policy he wants to pass, but given his past and the DNC's obvious reluctance we're likely going to have to push fucking hard to make it happen.
You're not being constructive, you're reiterating the obvious plan everyone else has like its not the most obvious thing we've all been talking about, but because youre using softer words its uniquely constructive.
It belies a serious lack of understanding of the way US politics are to believe that playing nice and playing along with trust is how shit gets done in this country. Bad faith is a principle operating strategy for our politicians, we cannot trust them to do the right thing, Democrats have a reputation for doing fuck all except for passing Republican shit for a good reason, they're happy to coast, we cannot let them coast.
Keeping our politicians accountable is the goal, your condescension that somehow your softer verbiage makes you uniquely constructive is asinine. Its the Democrat strategy, and the Democrat strategy is crap.
Primary the ones that won't commit to popular policies, protest when the president refuses to commit to popular policies, don't let them get away with doing nothing. This is not a country where things are accomplished by having tea with your politicians showing them the error of their ways, you need to make sure theyre aware theyre ONLY in office at the behest of their constituents and that their constituents are watching.
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I don't care about edgy, I just think what Biff's describing takes a level of gullibility I can't manage. Lying to scare people away from medicare for all isn't something a political ally does for example.
It's not even something a responsible adult does imo.
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I think its just a different political environment. He mentioned he lived in Scandinavia right? Their governments are infinitely more functional than the US, their politicians are probably generally pretty trustworthy and able to be convinced by their constituents.
Problem is American politicians are way, way shit, and beholden more to donors than to constituents on the big stages. Probably incomparably shitty to Scandinavian politicians, though Im sure theres still some of that going on there.
EDIT: Please call bullshit if I'm off, I know Biff is also French, maybe he follows French politics, but tbh Macron seems pretty American to me, there was a blog in the blog section here where apparently theres some sort of bill he (his government, the equivalent, unsure of French politic things) supports that makes it illegal to spread film of cops. In America the thought of not being able to spread videos of the police fills me with vomitous dread.
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United Kingdom10011 Posts
Obviously there are huge benefits to political consensus. Everyone would prefer politicians to be able to work together for the benefit of everyone. Unfortunately in the US progress on some issues is non existent within whatever political consensus the people in charge are able to form.
Clearly a consensus that is skewed massively and irretrievably to the far right is not helpful, and its pretty damn obvious that those on the left will resist it.
Biden immediately positioning himself as a consensus builder who wants to unite everyone is very worrying to those on the left who are hoping for some kind of meaningful long lasting change to the political landscape.
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Out of curiosity, when will the USPMT thread be reopened, now that the election is over (except for Donald Trump's never-ending, nonsensical threats and bullshit)?
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On November 08 2020 22:30 Zambrah wrote:
I think its just a different political environment. He mentioned he lived in Scandinavia right? Their governments are infinitely more functional than the US, their politicians are probably generally pretty trustworthy and able to be convinced by their constituents.
Problem is American politicians are way, way shit, and beholden more to donors than to constituents on the big stages. Probably incomparably shitty to Scandinavian politicians, though Im sure theres still some of that going on there.
EDIT: Please call bullshit if I'm off, I know Biff is also French, maybe he follows French politics, but tbh Macron seems pretty American to me, there was a blog in the blog section here where apparently theres some sort of bill he (his government, the equivalent, unsure of French politic things) supports that makes it illegal to spread film of cops. In America the thought of not being able to spread videos of the police fills me with vomitous dread.
Yes, you are right. Scandinavians probably have the most faith in their politicians in the whole world. Corruption is extremely low, the media is reasonably balanced and the opposition does a good job at calling out when necessary and shuts up when that is called for. As an example, afaik, the opposing parties from left or right barely went for political lowblows for the Covid-19 responses, and let the government and medical experts run the show.
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On November 08 2020 22:22 Zambrah wrote:
OBVIOUSLY we will help any progressive policy he wants to pass, but given his past and the DNC's obvious reluctance we're likely going to have to push fucking hard to make it happen.
You're not being constructive, you're reiterating the obvious plan everyone else has like its not the most obvious thing we've all been talking about, but because youre using softer words its uniquely constructive.
It belies a serious lack of understanding of the way US politics are to believe that playing nice and playing along with trust is how shit gets done in this country. Bad faith is a principle operating strategy for our politicians, we cannot trust them to do the right thing, Democrats have a reputation for doing fuck all except for passing Republican shit for a good reason, they're happy to coast, we cannot let them coast.
Keeping our politicians accountable is the goal, your condescension that somehow your softer verbiage makes you uniquely constructive is asinine. Its the Democrat strategy, and the Democrat strategy is crap.
Primary the ones that won't commit to popular policies, protest when the president refuses to commit to popular policies, don't let them get away with doing nothing. This is not a country where things are accomplished by having tea with your politicians showing them the error of their ways, you need to make sure theyre aware theyre ONLY in office at the behest of their constituents and that their constituents are watching.
you are so full of right wing shit.
Here's the problem with American politics. You have a system that doesn't fucking work so concessions will be made at every turn.
Don't believe me? Look at how your Senate has worked since the beginning. Or how about the nomination for your highest court? The house pretty much means shit and you get push back after push back. The fact that you can only be re-elected for 8 years and trying to push things through your system is a joke. Or electoral system is a joke.
It is amazing if you can accomplish anything with the time you get in office so don't give me b.s. because the amount of push back to get things done is bat shit crazy.
That's not to say my countries system is any better.
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On November 08 2020 22:44 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2020 22:30 Zambrah wrote:
I think its just a different political environment. He mentioned he lived in Scandinavia right? Their governments are infinitely more functional than the US, their politicians are probably generally pretty trustworthy and able to be convinced by their constituents.
Problem is American politicians are way, way shit, and beholden more to donors than to constituents on the big stages. Probably incomparably shitty to Scandinavian politicians, though Im sure theres still some of that going on there.
EDIT: Please call bullshit if I'm off, I know Biff is also French, maybe he follows French politics, but tbh Macron seems pretty American to me, there was a blog in the blog section here where apparently theres some sort of bill he (his government, the equivalent, unsure of French politic things) supports that makes it illegal to spread film of cops. In America the thought of not being able to spread videos of the police fills me with vomitous dread. Yes, you are right. Scandinavians probably have the most faith in their politicians in the whole world. Corruption is extremely low, the media is reasonably balanced and the opposition does a good job at calling out when necessary and shuts up when that is called for. As an example, afaik, the opposing parties from left or right barely went for political lowblows for the Covid-19 responses, and let the government and medical experts run the show.
It used to be that way.
But unfortunately, like in most places, we have rising neo-facist parties that are toxifying the political climate in a very similar way to what Trump has done in the US.
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On November 08 2020 22:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Out of curiosity, when will the USPMT thread be reopened, now that the election is over (except for Donald Trump's never-ending, nonsensical threats and bullshit)?
When Seeker gets around to it, I'd guess :D
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 08 2020 22:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Out of curiosity, when will the USPMT thread be reopened, now that the election is over (except for Donald Trump's never-ending, nonsensical threats and bullshit)?
Hopefully Flash can stick around and his status as TL news correspondent wasn’t only temporary
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Im full of a LOT of shit, but right is the wrong wing.
Concessions aren't made in our system, if you've been paying attention, you'll notice Republicans have discovered this strategy of "obstruct literally anything and blame it on the other ones" and it works very well for them.
My hope for moving past that sort of obstruction is to brute force it, we cannot compromise on the system we have, re: the Wegandi talk about PR and DC being added as states. His side believes their power isn't just something they've earned but that they're systematically ENTITLED to.
We need a slate of time where Democrats are able to completely muscle out Republicans, pass things that fundamentally alter our political landscape so that normal decent human politics can be at least considered.
Its a HUGE ask, its a VERY difficult thing to do in the US, we have immense partisanship, we have division within the side that will even entertain the idea of altering the political landscape, the task is monumental.
Its a metric shit ton of hard work, it will require grassroots organizing, taking house seats from not only Republicans but from Democrats that signal they're not willing to help improve the state of the country, it involves building an American electorate that is far more politically active and willing to do what we need to do to ensure our system doesn't have to be burned down by a peasant revolt.
America's system has tons of problems but the idea that its problem is it forces concessions is just not the reality of it insofar as I can observe.
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Got to say; the atmosphere after winning is very different here than when Trump won. The right wingers were pretty jubilant, as they usually are when their side wins.
None of that from the Democrat side.
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If you push for everything you want in most contexts, but in a specific context you have to do "concessions", then those are not concessions, that's just rhetorics.
It's not like liberals are making concessions with the left, or concessions on abortion or on gay marriage because this is a complicated country with a broken system, no; you have to make concessions with the right on economic issues when it comes to leftist policies, and that's it.
There's something to figure out there, and people who live in countries where there is a liberal party and a leftist party, and see the liberals ally with the far right frequently when they have something to pass that the left doesn't like, should have this figured out.
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If I was the DNC I'd be getting the armored car's ready to get Stacy abrums to run the whole thing. If she can turn Georgia blue she can change politics in America again like how Obama gave the left hope to have a generation that would never know loss.
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Id caution against assigning it to Stacey Abrams as like, a personality, no doubt she did a massive thing with her and her grassroots organizations earning massive turnout, especially amongst black youth, but I think it speaks more to the power of grassroots political organization than it does about Stacey Abrams as a political savant imo.
EDIT: Rashida Tlaib is another name of someone who did some powerhouse organization, and I'm sure Ilhan Omar did some great work on the ground too.
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In politics I think the personality and what someone represents can't be separated. Having Stacy Abrams as DNC head signals a shift to grassroots organizations for voter turnout being the focus. Clearly showing its value by its ability to move Georgia blue.
America is not ready for a Muslum in any leadership position I don't like saying that but the only thing that rural america is scared of more than socialists is wrong religion person. My grandma never recognized my parent's marriage because my dad was a catholic. Ilhan omar is working with a stacked deck being from the only state to not have a Democratic party in its state, because it was so far left of the national party in the day,
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 08 2020 22:41 Jockmcplop wrote:
Obviously there are huge benefits to political consensus. Everyone would prefer politicians to be able to work together for the benefit of everyone. Unfortunately in the US progress on some issues is non existent within whatever political consensus the people in charge are able to form.
Clearly a consensus that is skewed massively and irretrievably to the far right is not helpful, and its pretty damn obvious that those on the left will resist it.
Biden immediately positioning himself as a consensus builder who wants to unite everyone is very worrying to those on the left who are hoping for some kind of meaningful long lasting change to the political landscape.
I’m ok with it, depends how it manifests. It’s rather early doors and by precedent I’m not exactly hopeful that it’s the left’s stuff that gets chucked out to reach across various aisles.
On the other hand a consensus builder, or at least an attempt to do so feels rather sorely needed. At least in some symbolic way.
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I cant argue with the value of a charismatic figurehead, just so long as the important actual mechanics that enable the necessary electoral success dont wind up waylaid lol.
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On November 08 2020 23:17 Zambrah wrote:
I cant argue with the value of a charismatic figurehead, just so long as the important actual mechanics that enable the necessary electoral success dont wind up waylaid lol.
An't this the story of Obama.
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Okay, youre starting to turn me off of it in a big way now
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EPT
