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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 25 2020 18:13 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2020 16:33 deacon.frost wrote:
OK, let's decide what's the thread about. This is about racial slurs in general gaming, or SC2, isn't it? So giving examples from the real world is IMO senseless.
So, this is not the real world. unless you say share something about you - you're completely anonymous(even in games with a voice chat, voice filters exists!). Nobody knows your religion, color, nationality, weight, height, sex and size of your penis. So if anyone says to you something racist - is it racism when they don't know your race? And if calling you with a racial slur and it offends you, it IMO says more about you.
Racism is bad, but it does work ONLY if it offends you and only if the offending person KNOWS your race. Which happens on the non-anonymized part of the internets(e.g. facebook) and in the real world. Not in the anonymous gaming(and yes, pro players and streamers are not anonymous). You are quite correct. The international standard of 'hate speech' requires a close triangular connection between speaker, intended audience, and intention to incite hatred. It's doubtful that in-game racial slurs would meet the standard. Nevertheless, I'm trying to empathise with the concern of the OP (and his/her supporters). From what I understand, they see in-game racism as a social problem which manifest in real life (e.g. normalisation of racist slurs can 'indoctrinate' kids to be racist). Remove in-game racism, and you tackle the wider issue of racism as a whole. That's where the debate seems to be heading (rightly or wrongly).
Yeah, while hip hop, rap and other mothern slurry genres are getting free card, because they don't affect children as much as videogames... either don't discriminate and affect everyone or no one.
A random Internet person, when you're both anonymized, can't offend you. All they want is the offended reaction and by giving it you're just fueling their "hate". And yes, it's not hate. They call you TeamLiquider if they have a chance to offend you.
People need to start taking classes on how to not get offended by a random internet pseudo-troll. One day they will get offended by a chat bot 
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Is the "people shouldn't get offended" argument really not recognized as resoundingly oblivious here?
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On September 25 2020 18:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Is the "people shouldn't get offended" argument really not recognized as resoundingly oblivious here?
Yeah...
Let's also keep in mind that the discussion about racism is much younger in most European countries then in America. The 'where I grew up we don't take it too serious' argument might also point to the fact that the discussion around racism just isn't around yet, or in is around in a different form, in the place you are from.
Speaking from a Dutch context, I think we are lagging about 10 years behind the discussions in America, i.e. the question whether blackfacing should be allowed as a national tradition is actually only discussed since a couple of years, something that would be unthinkable in the North-American context.
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On September 25 2020 16:48 lolfail9001 wrote:
I won't lie, this thread is so hilarious.
Granted, that's my twisted upbringing, but i for life of me can't understand the way americans get all careful over a handful of slurs. Because down here, we learn to not get too emotional over words in kindergarten already. If anything, a strong reaction to any insult down here is always interpreted as sign of insecurity.
"Russian doesn't care about racism" and more hot news coming, in just a second.
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Northern Ireland24396 Posts
In the simplest sense, is the gaming experience of the majority enhanced by such behaviours? I’d say to a degree some good-natured banter, or some racial salt (of the SC race variety) does add some flavour and enjoyment. A lot of guys, myself included like that competitive machismo, to a degree.
From my time playing actual sports too I got it a lot, but that was abuse from my actual friends and it was on Wednesday night training, if I fucked up a shot or something. Crucially it wasn’t the other team en masse calling me a faggot or the n word every 5 seconds come matchday, and there were always handshakes after games.
It’s a difficult balancing act between allowing for a bit of fun and venting of aggression and having a very toxic environment.
I’d say we’re at an interesting juncture. Online gaming is a new phenomenon relatively speaking and it’s only now that we’re getting parents with experience of it having children entering it. If ever there’s a time to discuss such tenets as ‘it’s the internet, suck it up’ it’s now.
It’s a shame for example that our rules (we’re separated) for kiddo is no voice chat unless we’re playing together, because I think said kiddo gets a lot out of helping his team out and communicating, he’s good at games which has given him a lot of confidence too.
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On September 25 2020 19:27 Pistolen-Luuk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2020 18:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Is the "people shouldn't get offended" argument really not recognized as resoundingly oblivious here? Yeah... Let's also keep in mind that the discussion about racism is much younger in most European countries then in America. The 'where I grew up we don't take it too serious' argument might also point to the fact that the discussion around racism just isn't around yet, or in is around in a different form, in the place you are from. Speaking from a Dutch context, I think we are lagging about 10 years behind the discussions in America, i.e. the question whether blackfacing should be allowed as a national tradition is actually only discussed since a couple of years, something that would be unthinkable in the North-American context.
No, Europe is the forefront of hate speech law - or more specifically, the European Court of Human Rights (which includes non-EU countries such as Russia and Turkey). Recently, in ES v Austria, a statement calling the Prophet Muhamamad as a pedophile was flagged as hate speech.
US constitutional law on free speech (First Amendment) is wayyyy more lenient.
Maybe there's more 'discussion' in US politics and media. But Europe has a more coherent and balanced legal regime on hate speech (some say going too far on restricting free speech, such as the ES v Austria case). Europe is certainly 'not behind' the US in terms of actual 'adults-in-the-room' discussion.
Please, America is not the first or centre of everything...
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I'd generally like it if communication in online games were less toxic. There is far too much sexist, racist, homophobe, and all the other ways people can be bigoted in talk in online games.
Sadly, there does not seem to be a good solution to reduce this except for just limiting communication in general. I have no idea why it needs to be like this, but it seems to be basically impossible to get rid of.
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On September 25 2020 20:43 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2020 19:27 Pistolen-Luuk wrote:On September 25 2020 18:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Is the "people shouldn't get offended" argument really not recognized as resoundingly oblivious here? Yeah... Let's also keep in mind that the discussion about racism is much younger in most European countries then in America. The 'where I grew up we don't take it too serious' argument might also point to the fact that the discussion around racism just isn't around yet, or in is around in a different form, in the place you are from. Speaking from a Dutch context, I think we are lagging about 10 years behind the discussions in America, i.e. the question whether blackfacing should be allowed as a national tradition is actually only discussed since a couple of years, something that would be unthinkable in the North-American context. No, Europe is the forefront of hate speech law - or more specifically, the European Court of Human Rights (which includes non-EU countries such as Russia and Turkey). Recently, in ES v Austria, a statement calling the Prophet Muhamamad as a pedophile was flagged as hate speech. US constitutional law on free speech (First Amendment) is wayyyy more lenient. Maybe there's more 'discussion' in US politics and media. But Europe has a more coherent and balanced legal regime on hate speech (some say going too far on restricting free speech, such as the ES v Austria case). Europe is certainly 'not behind' the US in terms of actual 'adults-in-the-room' discussion. Please, America is not the first or centre of everything...
I see, I am not so aware of the status of constitutional laws against hate speech / racism (was referring to an academic context). But that is good to know.
I wanted to make a point to the 'in my country there is no racism' posts, as there might be more going on. Maybe there is a lack of discussion about racism?
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 25 2020 21:35 Pistolen-Luuk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2020 20:43 RKC wrote:On September 25 2020 19:27 Pistolen-Luuk wrote:On September 25 2020 18:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Is the "people shouldn't get offended" argument really not recognized as resoundingly oblivious here? Yeah... Let's also keep in mind that the discussion about racism is much younger in most European countries then in America. The 'where I grew up we don't take it too serious' argument might also point to the fact that the discussion around racism just isn't around yet, or in is around in a different form, in the place you are from. Speaking from a Dutch context, I think we are lagging about 10 years behind the discussions in America, i.e. the question whether blackfacing should be allowed as a national tradition is actually only discussed since a couple of years, something that would be unthinkable in the North-American context. No, Europe is the forefront of hate speech law - or more specifically, the European Court of Human Rights (which includes non-EU countries such as Russia and Turkey). Recently, in ES v Austria, a statement calling the Prophet Muhamamad as a pedophile was flagged as hate speech. US constitutional law on free speech (First Amendment) is wayyyy more lenient. Maybe there's more 'discussion' in US politics and media. But Europe has a more coherent and balanced legal regime on hate speech (some say going too far on restricting free speech, such as the ES v Austria case). Europe is certainly 'not behind' the US in terms of actual 'adults-in-the-room' discussion. Please, America is not the first or centre of everything... I see, I am not so aware of the status of constitutional laws against hate speech / racism (was referring to an academic context). But that is good to know. I wanted to make a point to the 'in my country there is no racism' posts, as there might be more going on. Maybe there is a lack of discussion about racism?
Nope, it's just that it's stupid to talk about racism when it comes to conflicts like Russians vs Chechens whenever they occur (and oh boy, do they occur). Ethnicity plays a role, Culture does too, race however is completely irrelevant (because it's the only common ground between 2 parties). And i suspect it is like that in a whole lot of other places, Racism is only ever relevant in very specific places unless you want to redefine what racism even is.
On September 25 2020 20:03 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2020 16:48 lolfail9001 wrote:
I won't lie, this thread is so hilarious.
Granted, that's my twisted upbringing, but i for life of me can't understand the way americans get all careful over a handful of slurs. Because down here, we learn to not get too emotional over words in kindergarten already. If anything, a strong reaction to any insult down here is always interpreted as sign of insecurity. "Russian doesn't care about racism" and more hot news coming, in just a second.
Above relates to your quip too.
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On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote:
I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Weird, in ten years of playing BW I rarely saw any kind of hateful speech of that manner in the chat channels, that stuff was always more in-game and whispers in my experience. Probably because of the ability to ban people from channels and chatbots and the extensive amount of active clans where a large part of the userbase parked themselves in. Be a jerk and get kicked. Not that there weren't lots of edgelords and corresponding channels where edgelordiness reigned supreme.
Also you suffer from the common misconception that hate speech, whatever that may mean, is not tolerated as a part of free speech. In actually free countries, it is. The negatives of suppressing hate speech, a term with a constantly shifting definition, far outweigh the positives of untrammeled exchange of opinions, even ridiculous ones like those rooted in bigotry.
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Usually the people who talk shit online are the type of people who if you went up to their face and dared them to a fight they would shit themselves.
Clearly they trying to make up for something they dont have. Typical bullying behaviour
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You sound very insecure Assyrianking.
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@Heyoka
On that note i do remmeber game names in old BW times being used to say offensive things but i do not recall them being used to say racist things. Most of the time it was just obscene things or targeted at specific users or teams/clans. Paradox games like EUIV still use games names in multiplayer and i never noticed anything improper there. I guess this is just a question of the playerbase.
+ Show Spoiler +
The most classic example i recall from playing BW on netwars (polish server) is naming the game : "4/4 Hunters Loda"
which rougly translates to 4/4 Hunter Blow Job
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I personally have noticed that the general offensiveness of games has greatly decreased in the last few years. Maybe because the players of the games I play are aging, but I rarely see major ragecases anymore.
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On September 25 2020 18:43 Arceus wrote:
We all went through the gaming phase when we used every horrible word in any kind of language to insult people and vent.
Is that ok? Maybe not by the current American woke standard, maybe yes in some certain countries and settings, I'm not sure. However, I find it quite essential for the online gaming experience of a boy growing up. I would raise eyebrows but not really mind if my boy behaves that way in CSGOGO 10 years later, I was there before.
In what way is hate speech essential to the gaming experience? I can't believe I'm even having to ask this question by the way.
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Who cares? Report them and move on. It's your problem if you take these online insults as personal. Oh and by the way, there's this useful option called "Mature Language Filter". Ever heard of it? You know why it's in every online video game?
It seems like you enjoy hunting these people down by not using the filter. It's as if you enjoy going on forums and farming karma points for your emotional empowerment.
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On September 26 2020 01:31 Moonsalt wrote:
Who cares? Report them and move on. It's your problem if you take these online insults as personal. Oh and by the way, there's this useful option called "Mature Language Filter". Ever heard of it? You know why it's in every online video game?
It seems like you enjoy hunting these people down by not using the filter. It's as if you enjoy going on forums and farming karma points for your emotional empowerment.
So why didn't you simply read this thread and move on? Why post anything in response, unless it's to do or say something that makes you feel righteous? If the OP shouldn't care about what random people on the internet say, why should you?
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On September 26 2020 01:56 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 01:31 Moonsalt wrote:
Who cares? Report them and move on. It's your problem if you take these online insults as personal. Oh and by the way, there's this useful option called "Mature Language Filter". Ever heard of it? You know why it's in every online video game?
It seems like you enjoy hunting these people down by not using the filter. It's as if you enjoy going on forums and farming karma points for your emotional empowerment.
So why didn't you simply read this thread and move on? Why post anything in response, unless it's to do or say something that makes you feel righteous? If the OP shouldn't care about what random people on the internet say, why should you?
Because it's a political thread at the top of the "StarCraft 2" section? It's clearly written with political desperation in an effort to cope against online racism, by farming karma points from people with similar frustrations. So yeah, I do feel pretty righteous by pointing out how stupid they are for taking it personally and making threads like these in the wrong place.
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This is what happens when we discourage people from making the connections between the disgusting and unacceptable nature of telling women to put up with harassment in online communities and doing the same with racism.
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On September 25 2020 23:10 Silvanel wrote:@Heyoka On that note i do remmeber game names in old BW times being used to say offensive things but i do not recall them being used to say racist things. Most of the time it was just obscene things or targeted at specific users or teams/clans. Paradox games like EUIV still use games names in multiplayer and i never noticed anything improper there. I guess this is just a question of the playerbase. + Show Spoiler +
The most classic example i recall from playing BW on netwars (polish server) is naming the game : "4/4 Hunters Loda"
which rougly translates to 4/4 Hunter Blow Job
What I remember is a lot of standard taunts you'd see in any schoolyard, insults about being fat, being a loser, being a virgin, being a fat virgin loser, that kind of dumb stuff. And yeah lots of crude sexual stuff to get attention and cheap laughs that wasn't directed at anyone as an insult like 4/4 Hunter Blow Job lol
And homophobic comments. Which were thrown out like candy to the point where there wasn't even any real heat behind them because that's how teenage and almost-teenage boys shit talked back then. And still do for all I know *shrug*
Racism was something I saw very rarely in the circles I associated with on B.Net playing BW, D2, and W3. And SC2 ripped the social aspect out of B.Net so hard that I barely ever talked with anyone playing it so if there was/is any outside of in-game bad manner I wouldn't see it anyway
If someone is raging out at you in any way and you want something to happen to them about it... report them. Blizzard has made it clear that's against the rules. It isn't 1999 anymore, they actually do something about it. From what I remember 8 million years ago if you wanted to complain about someone being so out there you had to e-mail Blizzard about it. People didn't think about things like that as being something that needed policies and procedures back then.
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EPT
