I'm 38 with 2 kids (one of which is pre-teen at 11). I only mention my age because I've played SC a very long time and I see some opponents using very inflammatory words outside the typical "go kill yourself". I made a thread about some of the "self hurt" language that's used and shouldn't be tolerated, but most of the feedback was apathetic and "that is part of gaming" overran the thread.
If telling someone to kill themselves appears common these days. What about racial slurs? Technically, I'm part of the tail end of the millennials I grew up with many ethnicities in high school. To be fair, it was mostly White and Asians in an affluent community but race was never an issue. My children don't understand why it is an issue. I try to explain that there were grievances close to 200 years ago, but it is difficult to articulate why there is even problems today.
Remember, children are born without a racist bone in their body. So it saddens me when I play people on SC2 that have this kind of language (and name).
After this long intro I'd like to request a poll: Is there inherent racism in video games, or is it more shock factor?
There are also additional, public, situations where top streamers utilize racial slurs. Do we think this is someone truly being racist or more inflammatory?
Poll: People Using Racist Language in Video Games
They want to say the most obscene thing that comes to their mind (98)
73%
They're racists, screw them (32)
24%
They know the bad words but feel like stringing them all together (aka non-intellectual) (5)
4%
They don't know what the word is but they know it is bad (0)
0%
135 total votes
Your vote: People Using Racist Language in Video Games
(Vote): They're racists, screw them (Vote): They want to say the most obscene thing that comes to their mind (Vote): They don't know what the word is but they know it is bad (Vote): They know the bad words but feel like stringing them all together (aka non-intellectual)
I reported you to the ADL and SPLC for posting an image with that word in it, your social credit score will now prevent you from boarding buses, planes and trains. Enjoy.
On September 24 2020 18:37 VonComet wrote: I reported you to the ADL and SPLC for posting an image with that word in it, your social credit score will now prevent you from boarding buses, planes and trains. Enjoy.
I guess youtube better remove the video with 7.7M views I posted with one of the top streamers in the world saying the N-word. I think Blizzard/Activision should also ban the person I just played online that used that offensive word. I think you should also look at the "confusion/funny BM" comments that reference that word on TL. And I think you should stop being a troll with 23 posts. Good day.
30 with a 7 year old myself. I guess it’s the shock factor/a go-to weapon for people with issues with anger.
I have limited experience with playing games with voice chat recently, what I do recall from doing so a lot back in the day was that while abuse was as bad, racial slurs were less prevalent. As if having to actually say them vs typing them was an impediment for some people.
On September 24 2020 19:00 WombaT wrote: 30 with a 7 year old myself. I guess it’s the shock factor/a go-to weapon for people with issues with anger.
I have limited experience with playing games with voice chat recently, what I do recall from doing so a lot back in the day was that while abuse was as bad, racial slurs were less prevalent. As if having to actually say them vs typing them was an impediment for some people.
Good call. I think voice over chat is different (worse, as if that is any different) than typing it in. Maybe technology has changed for the worse.
Stupid people being stupid. Personally, I don't really care what language people use in their fits of nerd rage. It bothers me more that they can't control their emotions for the most trivial reasons in the first place.
I agree with the previous poster that most people just try to think of the most offensive thing to say and what that is depends on the culture they live in and what's currently being discussed in public the most.
"Cunt" or "nigger" does not really make a difference in this context, what matters is the thought behind the word rather than the word itself.
On September 24 2020 19:08 True_Spike wrote: Stupid people being stupid. Personally, I don't really care what language people use in their fits of nerd rage. It bothers me more that they can't control their emotions for the most trivial reasons in the first place.
I agree with the previous poster that most people just try to think of the most offensive thing to say and what that is depends on the culture they live in and what's currently being discussed in public the most.
"Cunt" or "nigger" does not really make a difference in this context, what matters is the thought behind the word rather than the word itself.
Good points. I wonder how we come to the point that these words mean nothing. For instance, I'm Irish...you could call me a "Mic" all day long and I would laugh at you. I want to get to a point where racial slurs mean nothing. I think it will happen in the next 50 years when all of us are so blended it doesn't matter - somehow it seems politics makes it matter.
Working a lot with kids gives me a perspective to this. I can't speak for the young adults or for any other group.
Children learn bad words. The meaning doesn't matter much, as long as they are bad. Using bad words gets a reaction, which makes them effective. Using these words a lot makes them part of your active vocabulary. These words are then used as empowering words, similar to very and a bunch of adjectives and adverbs, e.t. "I'm fucking great". Kids will be equipped with 3 uses of each bad word: 1. As the literal meaning. 2. As a bad word in a provocation or emotional outburst. 3. As an adjective or adverb to empower the meaning of another word.
The bad words that children use can change very quickly, but words that devalue and degrade others are always there.
Education about empathy has shown to be about the only thing that consistently work as a means to reduce the use of bad words.
(Side note) Generally speaking, girls are measurably better at empathy than boys. As preteens the difference is similar to having been educated about empathy on a beginners level or not.
On September 24 2020 19:00 WombaT wrote: 30 with a 7 year old myself. I guess it’s the shock factor/a go-to weapon for people with issues with anger.
I have limited experience with playing games with voice chat recently, what I do recall from doing so a lot back in the day was that while abuse was as bad, racial slurs were less prevalent. As if having to actually say them vs typing them was an impediment for some people.
Good call. I think voice over chat is different (worse, as if that is any different) than typing it in. Maybe technology has changed for the worse.
It’s, different. You’re a bit older than me again but going from me to the next generation I was gaming online since 1996 and have observed quite a lot of changes! I was very young but I don’t recall the kind of ‘accepted’ level of abuse being a thing in my first forays.
Voice is considerably worse for general annoyance than typing in a game like SC because you can’t play SC well and give up your keyboard, so people aren’t spamming you the whole game with annoying noises etc.
But I do find the vitriol of abuse is slightly less bad, as if the mere act of saying something out of your mouth gives pause.
On September 24 2020 19:45 Drfilip wrote: Working a lot with kids gives me a perspective to this. I can't speak for the young adults or for any other group.
Children learn bad words. The meaning doesn't matter much, as long as they are bad. Using bad words gets a reaction, which makes them effective. Using these words a lot makes them part of your active vocabulary. These words are then used as empowering words, similar to very and a bunch of adjectives and adverbs, e.t. "I'm fucking great". Kids will be equipped with 3 uses of each bad word: 1. As the literal meaning. 2. As a bad word in a provocation or emotional outburst. 3. As an adjective or adverb to empower the meaning of another word.
The bad words that children use can change very quickly, but words that devalue and degrade others are always there.
Education about empathy has shown to be about the only thing that consistently work as a means to reduce the use of bad words.
(Side note) Generally speaking, girls are measurably better at empathy than boys. As preteens the difference is similar to having been educated about empathy on a beginners level or not.
Good comments. I think your response can be summed up by what I tell my kids "Any time you use a bad word means you don't know how to express yourself". But that is just me who uses "shit" and "fuck" all the time...the hypocrisy
On September 24 2020 20:15 WombaT wrote: What freedom of speech? To just say whatever one wants without consequence in game lobbies, or to not censure people for political positions?
This person (whom I'm speculating is someone related to my screenshot on the OP) is trolling this thread. Can a mod please remove this person from commenting.
I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
This person (whom I'm speculating is someone related to my screenshot on the OP) is trolling this thread. Can a mod please remove this person from commenting.
Do you always try to shut down people you disagree with? I have nothing to do with your low-level matches, i'm here to make sure someone with the power to make changes does not think the majority are in agreement with authoritarian control-freak people like you.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
On September 24 2020 19:00 WombaT wrote: 30 with a 7 year old myself. I guess it’s the shock factor/a go-to weapon for people with issues with anger.
I have limited experience with playing games with voice chat recently, what I do recall from doing so a lot back in the day was that while abuse was as bad, racial slurs were less prevalent. As if having to actually say them vs typing them was an impediment for some people.
Good call. I think voice over chat is different (worse, as if that is any different) than typing it in. Maybe technology has changed for the worse.
There is always the option to mute if you don't want to get insulted in different languages, say russian for example
Thanks for this post, it covers a bunch of issues I have been thinking of as well. I am 33 so probably a somewhat older gamer as well, but engaged (on and off) in online gaming communities since my teens.
In contrast with some of the opinions voice above I think racism (as well as misogyny around which more discussions have recently been going on) is systemic in the gaming industry (as it is anywhere else). The kind of discussion around the YouTube video posted by the OP makes this clear enough. Framing racism as a just a way kids 'try to be extra nasty' trivializes this discussion and ignores the fact words are bad for a reason, racism is not just in uttering a racist word but also in (intuitively) understanding that it is a bad word. For how would a racist word be bad without racism?
I wonder then what form this systemic racism takes in videogames. In terms of Starcraft I am interested in the way the game frames race, as in Zerg/Protoss/Terran. Think of the forms of higher intelligence, Asian aesthetics, religion and enlightenment associated with the Protoss race. Sexuality, matriarchial power structures, 'nature' and beastliness associated with the Zerg race. And interestingly a kind of paradoxical, existential conflict in the Terran race. Why are these 'races' constantly at war? What kind of 'othering' is going on? And how are male / female roles divided (i.e the ex convict macho and the matriarch/queen)?
Note that this is something I absolutely not think about while gaming, the game is just too immersive. But it is a kind of background...
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
That’s interesting, was a big criticism of me how Bnet 2 worked at the time and still does.
Yes you do cut the ability to cut out malicious or playful troll names, but you also cut out the ability to name your lobby ‘DoTA, noobs only’ or whatever and find particular rule sets of custom games.
I hadn’t realised that lobby names being trolly was actually a factor in that particular decision. Still think it was a bad decision for all sorts of reasons
On September 24 2020 20:52 Pistolen-Luuk wrote: Thanks for this post, it covers a bunch of issues I have been thinking of as well. I am 33 so probably a somewhat older gamer as well, but engaged (on and off) in online gaming communities since my teens.
In contrast with some of the opinions voice above I think racism (as well as misogyny around which more discussions have recently been going on) is systemic in the gaming industry (as it is anywhere else). The kind of discussion around the YouTube video posted by the OP makes this clear enough. Framing racism as a just a way kids 'try to be extra nasty' trivializes this discussion and ignores the fact words are bad for a reason, racism is not just in uttering a racist word but also in (intuitively) understanding that it is a bad word. For how would a racist word be bad without racism?
I wonder then what form this systemic racism takes in videogames. In terms of Starcraft I am interested in the way the game frames race, as in Zerg/Protoss/Terran. Think of the forms of higher intelligence, Asian aesthetics, religion and enlightenment associated with the Protoss race. Sexuality, matriarchial power structures, 'nature' and beastliness associated with the Zerg race. And interestingly a kind of paradoxical, existential conflict in the Terran race. Why are these 'races' constantly at war? What kind of 'othering' is going on? And how are male / female roles divided (i.e the ex convict macho and the matriarch/queen)?
Note that this is something I absolutely not think about while gaming, the game is just too immersive. But it is a kind of background...
idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying .
Edit: I do seriously question the value of total free speech in an in-game chat. Censoring stuff like that probably does not really harm political free-speech (which we can all agree is important) in any meaningful way. Ultimately, I don't really think it is a big deal whether or not they censor it so I think issues like this should be resolved by a democratic process.
On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote: idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying .
The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL....
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^
On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote: idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying .
The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL....
I mean I have almost a thousand times that but w/e. It’s an interesting topic, least to me anyway.
Can’t really speak for others but I’d wager there’s quite a few people who either have children getting into games, or are merely older and busy and have less time to play/want to relax while playing competitively and are just considerably less tolerant of an environment we’ve known since our teens or earlier.
I’m pretty pro BM to be fair, think it adds some spice and flavour, of the ‘making carriers nice skill toi have’ variety.
And yes muting is an option, well of course. Then I may as well be playing with AlphaStar all day, least until it learns how to BM
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^
Yes for sure, meanings change. Nevertheless the 'n' word is racist for a reason, that doesn't come from nowhere.
And shall we leave the woke/sjw namecalling out? Sure, point taken, but it's somewhat off topic. Better to further the discussion, no one is forcing you to be interested.
On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote: idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying .
The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL....
I mean I have almost a thousand times that but w/e. It’s an interesting topic, least to me anyway.
Can’t really speak for others but I’d wager there’s quite a few people who either have children getting into games, or are merely older and busy and have less time to play/want to relax while playing competitively and are just considerably less tolerant of an environment we’ve known since our teens or earlier.
I’m pretty pro BM to be fair, think it adds some spice and flavour, of the ‘making carriers nice skill toi have’ variety.
And yes muting is an option, well of course. Then I may as well be playing with AlphaStar all day, least until it learns how to BM
I can joke and talk shit with some people and that adds something but I hate BM. I just either mute people or don't reply or make fun of them back. It just shows that the person is having ego problems/insecurities that are coming out in a fantasy strategy game.
After some games i feel like saying something about race/balance (game race's settle down SJW's :D) but you put your ego aside and gg.
This thread should just be about BM not racism. We idolize Korean pro gamers as gods. It doesn't fit here.
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^
Yes for sure, meanings change. Nevertheless the 'n' word is racist for a reason, that doesn't come from nowhere.
And shall we leave the woke/sjw namecalling out? Sure, point taken, but it's somewhat off topic. Better to further the discussion, no one is forcing you to be interested.
with posts like this you might get called woke/sjw
I wonder then what form this systemic racism takes in videogames. In terms of Starcraft I am interested in the way the game frames race, as in Zerg/Protoss/Terran. Think of the forms of higher intelligence, Asian aesthetics, religion and enlightenment associated with the Protoss race. Sexuality, matriarchial power structures, 'nature' and beastliness associated with the Zerg race. And interestingly a kind of paradoxical, existential conflict in the Terran race. Why are these 'races' constantly at war? What kind of 'othering' is going on? And how are male / female roles divided (i.e the ex convict macho and the matriarch/queen)?
On September 24 2020 21:01 Harris1st wrote: To the point of "bad" words.
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^
There's a major difference between generic swear words and slurs however.
On the general topic, I don't there's any room for allowing slurs and outright hate speech, or things like telling people to kill themselves. It has no place in the community, and it honestly boggles my mind that anyone thinks the freedom to spout shit, with the direct intent to cause pain or anger, is more valuable than creating a space with some baseline quality control on the interactions you have.
Most forums that aren't totally horrific dumpsterfires have some level of moderation, and pretty much all private venues and communities reserve some right to remove people who keep pissing in the punchbowl. It's pretty essential to community health be able to occasionally prune off the most egregious offenders. Not a hard concept.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
Context? Well fuck that. Even if you only meant video games. The amount of racist/xenophobic utter bullshit i see whether it be online or what is blatantly happening in the States today is God damn baffling. Systematic racism doesn't just exist online whether it be video games, social media, every State.
We're living in a God damn mad world right now and it's pretty sad.
Once I think about it's always been a problem. Kids are immoral in general and very receptive to shit talk/picking up nasty words, creating new slang etc. even without exposure to social media and what have you.
I would agree that the vast majority don't even know the origins or roots of how certain words came to be or what they meant in the past and how they evolved.
Thanks for the thread, don't mind the "iNtErNet iS fUlL oF bAd wOrDs, hOw daRe YoU sAy anYtHiNg!" people, the silliness of their position and willingness to carte blanche defend anonymous vulgarity speak for themselves.
But SC2 has EULA/policy. SC2 has the authority to take action. Suspending accounts (or even perma banning accounts) is perfect. Making the experience shitty? Go buy another copy of the game.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
I absolutely do not think that it is a very small percent. (though that is for the us politics thread).
There was a time where "fuck" was used only literally or as an insult. Nowadays nobody cares at all and most sentences without some form of "fuck" or "fucking" in it seem empty ^_^
Yes for sure, meanings change. Nevertheless the 'n' word is racist for a reason, that doesn't come from nowhere.
And shall we leave the woke/sjw namecalling out? Sure, point taken, but it's somewhat off topic. Better to further the discussion, no one is forcing you to be interested.
The nice thing is, I don't even know what "woke/sjw" means :D
The line where good natured jibes end and racial slurs begin is hard to find sometimes. Sure there are some clear cases for both, don't get me wrong. I meant more along the lines of, like someone calling Reynor "spaghettiboi". Per definition this is racism.
I mostly experience general BM in my online games (cunt, dick, noob, retard, i had your mommy, stuff like that ) and very little raciscm.
EDIT: by no means do I want to defend people using this kind of language!
On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote: idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying .
The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL....
Having any posts here is a sign of mental deterioration
On September 24 2020 20:58 Anc13nt wrote: idk about other people but whenever someone BMs me with racist slurs or accusations of being a noob or whatever while they're losing, it just makes winning all the more gratifying .
The people who are crying and talking woke bs also have 15 posts on TL....
Having any posts here is a sign of mental deterioration
Bad troll is bad.
On topic:
I have disabled All chat in teamgames or just chat in general in 1v1 games (where possible) made my gaming experience a whole lot better.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
Systematic racism doesn't just exist online whether it be video games, social media, every State.
We're living in a God damn mad world right now and it's pretty sad.
On September 24 2020 21:51 WeddingEpisode wrote: But SC2 has EULA/policy. SC2 has the authority to take action. Suspending accounts (or even perma banning accounts) is perfect. Making the experience shitty? Go buy another copy of the game.
Banning / moderation / censoreship / turning off chat, seems to be the generally suggested method to counter online racist slur. Personally, I find it effective, but that is mainly I am selective in the kind of content I watch that exists around the game. Honestly, I experience most of it as bullshit. I would never take the kinds of discussions that are happening in and around the channels of many of the streamers (some names come to mind here) serious. But I am sure that for someone with kids its a different matter, as kids don't necessarily have the cultural flexibility to be selective (no kids are not inherently evil).
I find the Alphastar remark interesting as one of the reasons for playing online is that of actually playing with or against other people.
Honestly, I think things like "die of cancer" and "I hope you and your whole family die horrible deaths" are much worse things to say than anything related to race, sexual orientation and genitals.
I would not be surprised if Covid-19 slurs have started to appear in the dark corners of gaming as well.
On September 24 2020 19:00 WombaT wrote: 30 with a 7 year old myself. I guess it’s the shock factor/a go-to weapon for people with issues with anger.
I have limited experience with playing games with voice chat recently, what I do recall from doing so a lot back in the day was that while abuse was as bad, racial slurs were less prevalent. As if having to actually say them vs typing them was an impediment for some people.
Good call. I think voice over chat is different (worse, as if that is any different) than typing it in. Maybe technology has changed for the worse.
It’s, different. You’re a bit older than me again but going from me to the next generation I was gaming online since 1996 and have observed quite a lot of changes! I was very young but I don’t recall the kind of ‘accepted’ level of abuse being a thing in my first forays.
Voice is considerably worse for general annoyance than typing in a game like SC because you can’t play SC well and give up your keyboard, so people aren’t spamming you the whole game with annoying noises etc.
But I do find the vitriol of abuse is slightly less bad, as if the mere act of saying something out of your mouth gives pause.
Then Your perception is different than mine. I have been gaming online since around 1998 and in my opinion it hasn't changed much. There always was a lot of vitriol and offensive, racist and sexist talk in multiplayer games. In early BW days i think more than 50% of games on BN involved some heavy verbal attack. Especially if You played hunters
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
Systematic racism doesn't just exist online whether it be video games, social media, every State.
We're living in a God damn mad world right now and it's pretty sad.
You see systematic racism in video games?
The media is melting peoples minds.
The world is racist/sexist/homophobic to varying degrees, media will naturally reflect this intentionally or not, people aren’t magically different people when they sit down to queue ladder or whatever.
Gaming is quite an interesting aspect of this as it expanded rapidly beyond its historic core audience and you see quite the pushback against various groups involved in gaming, or attempts to branch out narratives to non-traditional fare.
You are apparently 38 but suprised by the language in an anonymous communication that is part of any game system? Pull the other one. One can only wonder how you deal with other places of communication on the internet or real life issues. Do you or your kids not watch the news?
Doesn't SC2 automatically have word filter on? I remember back when WoL was released, there was some controversy when innoculous words like "homosexual" where automatically censored. You had to manually remove the word filter. Why did you remove the word filter? So you can make a post like this complaining about forcibly allowing yourself to be exposed to words that were originally be automatically censored?
Being a 38 year old, you don't know how to use block functionality?
On September 24 2020 19:00 WombaT wrote: 30 with a 7 year old myself. I guess it’s the shock factor/a go-to weapon for people with issues with anger.
I have limited experience with playing games with voice chat recently, what I do recall from doing so a lot back in the day was that while abuse was as bad, racial slurs were less prevalent. As if having to actually say them vs typing them was an impediment for some people.
Good call. I think voice over chat is different (worse, as if that is any different) than typing it in. Maybe technology has changed for the worse.
It’s, different. You’re a bit older than me again but going from me to the next generation I was gaming online since 1996 and have observed quite a lot of changes! I was very young but I don’t recall the kind of ‘accepted’ level of abuse being a thing in my first forays.
Voice is considerably worse for general annoyance than typing in a game like SC because you can’t play SC well and give up your keyboard, so people aren’t spamming you the whole game with annoying noises etc.
But I do find the vitriol of abuse is slightly less bad, as if the mere act of saying something out of your mouth gives pause.
Then Your perception is different than mine. I have been gaming online since around 1998 and in my opinion it hasn't changed much. There always was a lot of vitriol and offensive, racist and sexist talk in multiplayer games. In early BW days i thinkg more than 50% of games on BN involved some heavy verbal attack. Especially if You played hunters
Ah the good old days. I’m 24 years older and quite a different person, my tolerance has probably changed a lot over the years too.
didnt we have this exact thread a couple months ago with the exact same replies? lmao
other than the removal of certain words (f word, r word etc) from the regular online chat rage vocabulary, not much has change and I doubt it will. Banning or restricting with word detectors isnt the solution because you can always find a way around it. either the culture changes in online gaming (which I doubt it will) or it will stay roughly the same imo. If you cant deal with it, disable chat. I for one just ignore it or get a bit of a chuckle from the screaming guy sitting in front of a screen somewhere.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
Systematic racism doesn't just exist online whether it be video games, social media, every State.
We're living in a God damn mad world right now and it's pretty sad.
You see systematic racism in video games?
The media is melting peoples minds.
The world is racist/sexist/homophobic to varying degrees, media will naturally reflect this intentionally or not, people aren’t magically different people when they sit down to queue ladder or whatever.
Gaming is quite an interesting aspect of this as it expanded rapidly beyond its historic core audience and you see quite the pushback against various groups involved in gaming, or attempts to branch out narratives to non-traditional fare.
The word that was used was "systematic", as in it intentionally has built in racism in video games/esports.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
Systematic racism doesn't just exist online whether it be video games, social media, every State.
We're living in a God damn mad world right now and it's pretty sad.
You see systematic racism in video games?
The media is melting peoples minds.
The world is racist/sexist/homophobic to varying degrees, media will naturally reflect this intentionally or not, people aren’t magically different people when they sit down to queue ladder or whatever.
Gaming is quite an interesting aspect of this as it expanded rapidly beyond its historic core audience and you see quite the pushback against various groups involved in gaming, or attempts to branch out narratives to non-traditional fare.
The word that was used was "systematic", as in it intentionally has built in racism in video games/esports.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
Systematic racism doesn't just exist online whether it be video games, social media, every State.
We're living in a God damn mad world right now and it's pretty sad.
You see systematic racism in video games?
The media is melting peoples minds.
The world is racist/sexist/homophobic to varying degrees, media will naturally reflect this intentionally or not, people aren’t magically different people when they sit down to queue ladder or whatever.
Gaming is quite an interesting aspect of this as it expanded rapidly beyond its historic core audience and you see quite the pushback against various groups involved in gaming, or attempts to branch out narratives to non-traditional fare.
The word that was used was "systematic", as in it intentionally has built in racism in video games/esports.
People just like to throw around buzz words.
I used the word 'systemic' (more of buzzword then systematic actually), that has nothing to do with intentionality. In fact it is the opposite, racism is part of this world in the sense that it is (like sexism or gender roles) unintentionally part of the way we organise. Like a bias. Why is this the case? Well, that is because we are building a world on top of a history of colonalism and all the bad things that came with it. And sure it benefits certain people not to notice this. Hence a number of people in this thread saying that racism is part of video games just like it is part of everything else (not meaning that the Blizzard game designers are all consciously racist).
So where to go is to identify what kinds of biasses are present in these games. What is ignored / facilitated.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
Systematic racism doesn't just exist online whether it be video games, social media, every State.
We're living in a God damn mad world right now and it's pretty sad.
You see systematic racism in video games?
The media is melting peoples minds.
The world is racist/sexist/homophobic to varying degrees, media will naturally reflect this intentionally or not, people aren’t magically different people when they sit down to queue ladder or whatever.
Gaming is quite an interesting aspect of this as it expanded rapidly beyond its historic core audience and you see quite the pushback against various groups involved in gaming, or attempts to branch out narratives to non-traditional fare.
The word that was used was "systematic", as in it intentionally has built in racism in video games/esports.
People just like to throw around buzz words.
I used the word 'systemic' (more of buzzword then systematic actually), that has nothing to do with intentionality. In fact it is the opposite, racism is part of this world in the sense that it is (like sexism or gender roles) unintentionally part of the way we organise. Like a bias. Why is this the case? Well, that is because we are building a world on top of a history of colonalism and all the bad things that came with it. And sure it benefits certain people not to notice this. Hence a number of people in this thread saying that racism is part of video games just like it is part of everything else (not meaning that the Blizzard game designers are all consciously racist).
So where to go is to identify what kinds of biasses are present in these games. What is ignored / facilitated.
The worlds gone nuts. I'm leaving the thread. Have fun.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Great story @Heyoka. I actually remember that when I searched for "BGH" games in SC1. It's sad that only a small few can ruin the experience for the rest; however, I would challenge you when you say "racism is alive in the USA" I would ask to what degree. I would argue it is a very small percent; similar to what you see when you could make random game names in SC1 - 99.9% didn't say the N-word in their title to join. I feel that politics and this nature to "throw the worst slur possible" has polluted our mindset. A vast majority, I would say, cannot appreciate what those words really mean.
Systematic racism doesn't just exist online whether it be video games, social media, every State.
We're living in a God damn mad world right now and it's pretty sad.
You see systematic racism in video games?
The media is melting peoples minds.
The world is racist/sexist/homophobic to varying degrees, media will naturally reflect this intentionally or not, people aren’t magically different people when they sit down to queue ladder or whatever.
Gaming is quite an interesting aspect of this as it expanded rapidly beyond its historic core audience and you see quite the pushback against various groups involved in gaming, or attempts to branch out narratives to non-traditional fare.
The word that was used was "systematic", as in it intentionally has built in racism in video games/esports.
People just like to throw around buzz words.
I used the word 'systemic' (more of buzzword then systematic actually), that has nothing to do with intentionality. In fact it is the opposite, racism is part of this world in the sense that it is (like sexism or gender roles) unintentionally part of the way we organise. Like a bias. Why is this the case? Well, that is because we are building a world on top of a history of colonalism and all the bad things that came with it. And sure it benefits certain people not to notice this. Hence a number of people in this thread saying that racism is part of video games just like it is part of everything else (not meaning that the Blizzard game designers are all consciously racist).
So where to go is to identify what kinds of biasses are present in these games. What is ignored / facilitated.
The worlds gone nuts. I'm leaving the thread. Have fun.
People not understanding nuance is the core issue of every discussion like this. I don’t even understand how we got to the topic of systemic racism though
On September 24 2020 22:55 Slydie wrote: Honestly, I think things like "die of cancer" and "I hope you and your whole family die horrible deaths" are much worse things to say than anything related to race, sexual orientation and genitals.
I would not be surprised if Covid-19 slurs have started to appear in the dark corners of gaming as well.
So true. If I'm a kid and my opponent threatens to hunt me down and whoop my ass, I'll be scared af. Hate speech? Not so much.
One of the best feeling of gaming with friends (and also strangers) is the banter. We chat and joke about everything. Some thoughtless careless racist and sexist remark? Definitely. We get a good laugh over some random dude raging and calling us gay and whatever. We don't get PTSD or anything.
Will the random dude develop into a racist psychopathic killer? Doubt so. Even if he does, that's just his nature. Shutting him out from video games will not cure his hate. He'll channel his hate somewhere else, on the field or the alley.
Sports, physical or electronic, gets our emotions running. I've been in violent scraps before in football. The violence comes from the rush of the game. For 10-15 years of sports, I've never seen violence driven by hate (other than the usual team rivalry - school, neighbourhood, etc).
Of course, racism can be a real problem in high-level sports, such as European football. But I suppose that's quite a complex issue altogether...
On September 25 2020 00:20 TentativePanda wrote: People not understanding nuance is the core issue of every discussion like this. I don’t even understand how we got to the topic of systemic racism though
After this long intro I'd like to request a poll: Is there inherent racism in video games, or is it more shock factor?
Well, this was the question the OP asked. Granted, systemic is not inherent but saying gaming is inherently racist is almost as bold no?
As I said earlier, I do think there are some inherent racist features in many games. Take as an example the races of SC2. And please don't be immediately offended, I am not saying everyone is purposely racist. This is about implicit undertones. The sexual/feminine undertones in Zerg and the Asian/Egyptian undertones in Protoss (i.e. the kind of zen-warrior, rebirth, pyramids, ancient knowledge). Of course these references come from somewhere. Honestly I wouldn't say its racist but there are defenitely some stereotypes going on here.
In the very least, there is nothing I ever see in the popular games (only in the shitty games made by sjw's) that challenges mysogynic / racist / homophobic attitutes!
And yes, I also take please in being ranted against when I win from someone, neither am I offended when some loser calls me the 'n' word in an online game. Can't care less. That is not what I mean with racism, I think cultural tropes are more important to think of.
I feel like this has gotten a lot better in the last years in both bw and sc2.
Way less personal attacks, way less random slurs.
In counterstrike a few weeks ago, someone dropped one of those n-bombs, and a 12-14 yr little guy said, "Woah, bruh your so toxic, shut the fuck up," the rest of the team agreed and we vote kicked. Turns out dude was showing the game to his black homie and that shit happened, his first time viewing the game. I see signs of hope growing in the cracks.
I agree with you op, it is a problem and I maybe wrong, but I feel like it is getting better.
i voted "They want to say the most obscene thing that comes to their mind" because that's what it's been for me in the past. my mind would race to find the most hurtful / obscene thing to say. i didn't gravitate toward racial slurs personally, but it just as easily could have been that. certainly there are hateful people too but i think the majority of it is a result of people feeling emotions that they cant control and then lashing out
the more evil people are the ones who learned to control themselves but are amused by people who can't. and they use a loophole in the concept or personal responsibility that a person is always responsible for their own actions even though another person can influence those actions. so they provoke the upset person in order to deepen or prolong their negative emotions, just to laugh at them. and feel morally superior at the same time. if that's a habit of yours, start working on controlling it.
for a while i started visiting /r/starcraft again and there is a steady trickle of posts of screenshots of opponents saying awful things. and they get upvoted. so there are people who actually want to see that verbal abuse and share it with each other and want other people to see it. i dont get it. it made me stop visiting the subreddit again
i dont understand why there isn't a "turn off chat" option. why should we have to be reactive in controlling our experience by having to read and feel what people say and then go through the trouble of blocking them? i would love to just turn off chat. display an icon on the loading screen indicating that i have chat off so people dont write messages for no reason. the negative messages outnumber the positive messages by a lot. and while the positive messages are nice, they aren't important. there's no trouble laddering without speaking at all
and continuing with the philosophy of letting us control our own experience, an option to opt out of pausing and an option to set the skins of our opponents' units would be helpful. the response to the pausing issue is "well you can just resume it and they can pause it only 3 times" but in this paradigm, i'm the bad guy for resuming the game. i think people should have to opt in to pausing and if both players have opted in, then pausing is possible. if either player opts out, then pausing isn't possible. as for skins, why can't i control what i see on my own screen? this totally baffles me. i don't know why they want me to see what someone else prefers. they can't choose my console, they cant choose my announcer. it'd be so annoying if they could. why are skins an exception?
37 with an 11 year old kid here. Racism exists in every aspect of our lives, including video games, there is no denying it. In many (not all) cases people that use slur don't even understand why its so inappropriate or wrong. They do know its used as something hurtful without questioning why so.
I've personally seen an uptick in hate speech in my SC2 games for maybe the past year or so? Not sure what's up with that. My assumption is the higher in MMR I get, the more edgelord losers I come across.
I agree with AttackZerg though. Overall things were significantly worse when I was a kid. I'm 31. I played Counterstrike in the early 2000s and the things that would be typed and said into those servers would mortify a lot of people today. If it weren't for my dad moving the computer into my room, I might not have been able to play anymore. Seriously. In those days I had the sound coming through the speakers and my mom heard so much nonsense she was ready to throw the computer away.
Funny enough, I think the hate speech in Counterstrike actually toughened me up and allowed me to navigate these situations without getting too emotional. Still, this sort of speech has no place in any community. It's disingenuous to suggest this is protected under free speech. These companies have EULAs that explicitly say otherwise. I suspect anyone making a free speech claim to justify saying the n-word in a game all day is being purposely obtuse. It's ok guys. You can continue to say it in the comfort of your home if you must.
May I ask why you don't care about the "typical", on your own words, "go kill urself" but you mind the "shut up nigg*r" so much that u feel obligated to make a thread about it?
Also, does ur child listen to american pop and hip hop or rap songs? If it does, haven't it already asked you why black rappers call other black people as nigg*rs like 100% of the time?
inherent racism in video games? Someone said something about what the media do to our brains, and he is totally right.
I don't see why there's not just a filter or something you can use to auto filter stuff. Maybe there is I don't know as I don't really play blizzard games much anymore. but with racial slurs especially it seems easy enough to just filter them out. I personally have no problem with a company banning for that stuff because it's probably better overall and the people who can't find more creative things to say are doing it to themselves in a sense (If that makes sense). A company saying their fine with hate speech by not doing anything about it would probably be committing pr suicide. Freedom of speech generally means the government can do anything. Private companies are still free to punish you. If you use racial slurs at work/school your going to get in trouble and/or fired. People may not mean it but it's probably still a good idea for them to learn that there's consequences for their actions. Finally it's not an either or situation. Some people can go too far in one direction but that doesn't mean that the answer is to go all the way in the other direction it just means to understand what is reasonable and be careful about setting limits that are neutral and apply in both directions.
Slurs seem the easiest to ban for because its literally one word and you're unlikely to be using it in any context where it wouldn't be a slur in a video game (IE talking about it academically). Even if other things are worse both can be bannable.
Regardless though of what the games do to deal with people who say this stuff playing a game game shouldn't force you to be subject to it and there really needs to be better options in a lot of games for quickly muting people/turning chat off (I play a few games where this isn't a feature and its awful)/some sort of ping system for MP games that isn't as toxic so you don't have to rely on chat to actually play the game.
I'm a teacher at a german school in a huge city (Munich). The kids are tough, but they're not racist, because they're around people of all ethinicities every day. But their language is really, really rough. And of course, they've all got experience when it comes to online bullying, be it in a chat app or in a game. I think those "racist" people in games mostly are insecure and want to be as abrasive as possible. Still, their language leaves a mark. I'm really a chill person, but I felt offended by some shit people wrote in BW or SC2. But I don't answer them anymore, it's a waste of time. Swallow the anger, move on.
Kids have harder time doing this, which is why an adult should guide them, when they start playing competitive online games.
The way I see it, those people are in a lot of pain in their own way and they are lashing out. That's probably where the root of the problem lies and where solutions should be directed towards along with some bandaids along the way i.e. filters
On September 25 2020 02:33 Ronin2011 wrote: May I ask why you don't care about the "typical", on your own words, "go kill urself" but you mind the "shut up nigg*r" so much that u feel obligated to make a thread about it?
Also, does ur child listen to american pop and hip hop or rap songs? If it does, haven't it already asked you why black rappers call other black people as nigg*rs like 100% of the time?
inherent racism in video games? Someone said something about what the media do to our brains, and he is totally right.
In American society, black men have reclaimed the word as a way of dealing with it used being used as a cudgel. In the vast majority of music, you hear a colloquial version with an a at the end of the word not an r. When said by a black person, this version of the word can be many things from brother-friend-homie-dude to brother-in-struggle all the way to my enemy.
When ANYONE black or not uses the word with an R at the end, it is always meant in its most disrespectful and ugly context. The difference between the words and it's usage is HUGE. But again, if a black person says the word with the r, it still means less because their direct ancestors didn't own 'yours' , or if we went back in time, one of us would be hunted like a dog and used as a beast and one would not. Parts of the country those black people live in, still celebrate and mourn the loss of the institution of slavery.
If you are in the American context and are white calling a black person the n word, you are slapping them with "Your just an animal slave". It is a cruel thing to say, in a country where current Senators have grandparents and great-grandparents who were slaves.
There is word that works very similarly in South Africa. From a black man it is an insult, from a white man it is a battle cry of a time where you and yours were theirs'.
In closing, no, you do not hear black people call other black people the n-word with an r at the end 100% of the time, if we search rap genius, I bet it is used 20-1 or less then the other version.
A friend who broke an arm referred to himself as "a cripple". We still didn't use that word. Why are people being so obtuse about the n-word?
You can call yourself and others in the same situation whatever is culturally appropriate. Doesn't make it okay for those who don't share the same experience use to that word.
On September 25 2020 03:18 AbouSV wrote: I don't understand why it is called "the N word", and not "nigger". Is it the same as beeping "fuck" on American TV?
I refuse to use that word in any context, my last name is Harris.
My family owned slaves in three States and supplied grain and other supplies to surrounding plantations.
I am sure there was some words, that old Germans will never use or say again because they only represent evil.
Fuck is just fucking fine with me. That is the single word that I edit and don't use. Others have different reasons.
On September 25 2020 03:18 AbouSV wrote: I don't understand why it is called "the N word", and not "nigger". Is it the same as beeping "fuck" on American TV?
It's about having a bit of decorum. In the context of the United States, and certain other countries, saying certain words is a sign that you lack tact. Not just tact, but you may lack empathy, class, shame and may be an oblivious racist. A clever racist knows what the fuck they're doing.
When a platform appeals to all people, or at least wants to, you could say that the social climate dictates what is and is not tolerable. Day-time TV tries to censor swear words and inflamatory words to avoid stepping on toes and to keep clean with their sponsors.
What happens with gaming, is it puts a person into an emotionally vulnerable place sometimes, maybe moreso when you're losing. People get defensive or aggressive and words really are the only weapon you have in those moments. The words people choose in those moments aren't necessarily a reflection of their own character, but that also isn't always true. I literally can't vote on any of those choices, because in any one instance of rage where someone drops an N bomb with a hard R, I can't be in their head-space at that moment or understand their feelings.
One thing I have to point out to the OP is racism isn't some old grievance from 200, or 400 years ago.
Racism is probably better explained as a prejudice and/or bias that an individual wants to avoid having, for a number of reasons. It is very real, and all people are potentially vulnerable to it.
Racism has two expressions. Inward (required for outward) and outward (being openly racist).
Racist language in online interactions is not necessarily an outward expression of true racism, because the speaker doesn't know their target's ethnicity. This leaves multiple doors open in terms of the context of why they said it in the first place. The fact that you can come up with four explanations, none of which I singularly agree with, is proof that it isn't simply explained.
On September 25 2020 03:18 AbouSV wrote: I don't understand why it is called "the N word", and not "nigger". Is it the same as beeping "fuck" on American TV?
I refuse to use that word in any context, my last name is Harris.
Use is key here. I find it really interesting that Americans have dropped the use-mention distinction for a seemingly increasing number of words. Personally, I obviously wouldn't use the n-word but I see no issue with mentioning it. I'm not gonna do that around English speakers because I know that they likely think differently but I do think that substituting "the x-word" for various slurs/swear words tends to make things needlessly complicated, at least when the custom is expanded beyond one or two words. For example, I see people substituting "the f-word" for two different words and it's not always clear from the context which one it is.
To the point of this thread: I don't think you can fit everyone's reasons for saying terrible things online into one neat category. Some of the people using slurs do it to get a rise out of others, others are legitimately racist. Some people are sore losers and tell you to kill yourself in a fit of passion, others are bitter or hateful and will calmly tell you to die of cancer. The thing is, there's no way to discern those categories when all you have is a few sentences in a video game chat.
I think it's prudent to focus on what's common to all cases. People tend to talk about anonymity a lot but while anonymity does tend to exacerbate the issue by removing any kind of accountability, I don't think it's at the core: Just like at the absolutely vile things people will say on facebook with their real name and picture right next to it. In my opinion, the heart of the matter is that when communicating over the internet, you are in some very real sense not talking to a person but to a representation of that person, a representation that may be more or less limited, say, sc2 in-game chat contra video chat. This alone removes a lot of the inhibitions that would usually have because they do not fully experience themselves as interacting with a person. While it's always possible to better the situation, I'm afraid we'll never be rid of that fundamental issue. The phenomenon is old, and not unique to the internet: look at prank calls or love letters for example. The latter interestingly shows that the social or emotional distance enforced by the medium is not always a bad thing, it might allow people to express things that they would otherwise find themselves unable to.
On September 25 2020 02:33 Ronin2011 wrote: May I ask why you don't care about the "typical", on your own words, "go kill urself" but you mind the "shut up nigg*r" so much that u feel obligated to make a thread about it?
Also, does ur child listen to american pop and hip hop or rap songs? If it does, haven't it already asked you why black rappers call other black people as nigg*rs like 100% of the time?
inherent racism in video games? Someone said something about what the media do to our brains, and he is totally right.
In American society, black men have reclaimed the word as a way of dealing with it used being used as a cudgel. In the vast majority of music, you hear a colloquial version with an a at the end of the word not an r. When said by a black person, this version of the word can be many things from brother-friend-homie-dude to brother-in-struggle all the way to my enemy.
When ANYONE black or not uses the word with an R at the end, it is always meant in its most disrespectful and ugly context. The difference between the words and it's usage is HUGE. But again, if a black person says the word with the r, it still means less because their direct ancestors didn't own 'yours' , or if we went back in time, one of us would be hunted like a dog and used as a beast and one would not. Parts of the country those black people live in, still celebrate and mourn the loss of the institution of slavery.
If you are in the American context and are white calling a black person the n word, you are slapping them with "Your just an animal slave". It is a cruel thing to say, in a country where current Senators have grandparents and great-grandparents who were slaves.
There is word that works very similarly in South Africa. From a black man it is an insult, from a white man it is a battle cry of a time where you and yours were theirs'.
In closing, no, you do not hear black people call other black people the n-word with an r at the end 100% of the time, if we search rap genius, I bet it is used 20-1 or less then the other version.
One could argue that by "reclaiming" the word, hip hop culture may have inadvertently normalized, or at least created a second niche for the word. Whether or not this is the case, you do see examples of people using the word not as a slur, but as a term of endearment, but being chastized nonetheless. You see examples of rappers who won't use the word.
Biggie was not well-received in Jamaica because his lyrics contained the word.
In many countries (mostly former English colonies, but others as well), there aren't two versions. The version with the hard R is indistinguishable from the version with the soft R. It's an accent thing. When they hear a rapper say "nigga", they hear "nigger". This is why the point of view of English-speaking non-Americans can come off as confused. Their accent does not allow for two forms.
For starters, why do people use the most extreme word to describe prejudics or biggotry? Virtually nothing in this discussion is qualified as racist. Racism denotes a genetic superiority, using an offensive word is not that. To me, this whole run towards labeling people is much more offensive than any word.
It is a convenient way for those that do this to categoize other people in a generic fashion, thereby stigmatizing, ostracisizing them, and margenilizng them. You know, exactly the same things you supposedly are fighting to end. It is intellectually disgusting at every level. The fact that so many people are on this bandwagon yet don't even realize it astounding.
I personally do not use the language that offends you so much, as it is lazy, pejorative, and lacts tact. I am predjudice against one set of people...assholes. They come in all flavors and colors. Just like good people.
On September 25 2020 04:43 kramvti wrote: For starters, why do people use the most extreme word to describe prejudics or biggotry? Virtually nothing in this discussion is qualified as racist. Racism denotes a genetic superiority, using an offensive word is not that. To me, this whole run towards labeling people is much more offensive than any word.
It is a convenient way for those that do this to categoize other people in a generic fashion, thereby stigmatizing, ostracisizing them, and margenilizng them. You know, exactly the same things you supposedly are fighting to end. It is intellectually disgusting at every level. The fact that so many people are on this bandwagon yet don't even realize it astounding.
I personally do not use the language that offends you so much, as it is lazy, pejorative, and lacts tact. I am predjudice against one set of people...assholes. They come in all flavors and colors. Just like good people.
There's also the distinction between racist acts and somebody being racist to an extent. You can do racist acts without literally believing in the superiority of a race to the extent some people require to be considered racist. Using a racial slur is racist and what that says about the person is another issue that people can argue about. the act itself is a racist act regardless of the person. The only exceptions I can think of would be like an academic setting where your discussing the word or something intrinsically related to it or if your saying someone used the word or similar situations.
your way works too. I'll just add that there a lot of variations of being racist. Using a racial slur does not make you instantly a neo nazi or a white supremecist but its still racist. There's a lot more subtlety in some other areas but since we're dealing with something as obvious as racial slurs it's not really relevent.
I'll go back to saying saying racial slurs should not be acceptable in society and it's important to teach kids that it has consequences is they think their just being edgy so it later doesn't cost them a job/relationship etc.
On September 25 2020 05:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: There's also the distinction between racist acts and somebody being racist to an extent. You can do racist acts without literally believing in the superiority of a race to the extent some people require to be considered racist. Using a racial slur is racist and what that says about the person is another issue that people can argue about. the act itself is a racist act regardless of the person. The only exceptions I can think of would be like an academic setting where your discussing the word or something intrinsically related to it or if your saying someone used the word or similar situations.
It is usually not very helpful to judge people by the language they use, regardless wether you like it or not. I can be perfectly PC but still be an asshole to you. What counts is what a person does, not what they say and even less so how they say it.
On September 25 2020 05:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: There's also the distinction between racist acts and somebody being racist to an extent. You can do racist acts without literally believing in the superiority of a race to the extent some people require to be considered racist. Using a racial slur is racist and what that says about the person is another issue that people can argue about. the act itself is a racist act regardless of the person. The only exceptions I can think of would be like an academic setting where your discussing the word or something intrinsically related to it or if your saying someone used the word or similar situations.
It is usually not very helpful to judge people by the language they use, regardless wether you like it or not. I can be perfectly PC but still be an asshole to you. What counts is what a person does, not what they say and even less so how they say it.
In general I agree with you. but I just feel racial slurs are a category where its perfectly fine to be judgmental about the choice of words. I generally draw a distinction between that and a lot of the pc grey area people always argue about. I think explicit racial slurs are a different category than being non politically correct which I generally have less of an issue with. There's a lot of things people say that I think are racist that I don't get into arguments about because it's not worth it and it's enough of a grey area I'm not super offended by it. Again that's different that using the N word explicitly or one of the many Anti Asian explicit racial slurs. Being an asshole is different than using a racial slur so I don't think their really comparable. I welcome anyone who can be an asshole without being explicitly racist because it at least shows some awareness.
And again you can be really nice but it's still a racist act to say racial slurs regardless of how much you do for the community (see Donald Sterling getting an award from the NAACP for a sort of example). I would not be a friend with anyone who used racial slurs no matter how nice they were otherwise. Also I wouldn't be friends with an asshole just because they don't use racial slurs. We're free to disagree obviously about any part of this.
On September 25 2020 05:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: There's also the distinction between racist acts and somebody being racist to an extent. You can do racist acts without literally believing in the superiority of a race to the extent some people require to be considered racist. Using a racial slur is racist and what that says about the person is another issue that people can argue about. the act itself is a racist act regardless of the person. The only exceptions I can think of would be like an academic setting where your discussing the word or something intrinsically related to it or if your saying someone used the word or similar situations.
Yes exactly, having this discussion, in this instance about the gaming community doesn't mean saying that everyone involved is purposefully racist. And talking about racism, similar to the way it is being done in academics, is not the same as purposefully invoking racist catagories (in reaction to the so often used argument that if we just stop talking about it the world will magically not be racist).
On September 25 2020 05:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: There's also the distinction between racist acts and somebody being racist to an extent. You can do racist acts without literally believing in the superiority of a race to the extent some people require to be considered racist. Using a racial slur is racist and what that says about the person is another issue that people can argue about. the act itself is a racist act regardless of the person. The only exceptions I can think of would be like an academic setting where your discussing the word or something intrinsically related to it or if your saying someone used the word or similar situations.
It is usually not very helpful to judge people by the language they use, regardless wether you like it or not. I can be perfectly PC but still be an asshole to you. What counts is what a person does, not what they say and even less so how they say it.
It's incredibly helpful. It allows me to avoid spending time with people who are comfortable using racial slurs. If someone uses said slurs often, and has any awareness at all of how damaging they can be or what the history behind them is, it's a very clear indicator of a part of their character. We are social creatures, words are actions.
i probably would never have learned any racial slurs til much later had i not been playing online games since 9 years old. i think it is ok for them to hear them, but you must provide context about why words are bad, and not just that they are bad. also avoid streamers that use slurs casually. it is very easy to adopt patterns from things you watch a lot. normalizing slurs is the worst possible outcome.
Using discriminatory words that carry the argument of, less than or greater than based upon racist-theory is racist.
No. It is not. It is about context. If you are using it to specifically mean that you are supierior simply because of that then yes, it would be. Words themselves lack much of their meaning without contextual substance.
If I call you a piece of shit, I am better then you. When I degrade you with language, I am better then you.
Except for the part that you may think you are one as well. Is there any difference to you in saying "you are such a^*%$!!!" (because my mom has said that to me more than once!)
Are you so upset because we aren't using the word bigot, which is the act of uttering hateful shit? Because we are talking mostly about writing?
Here you nicely assume that I am off my hinges with fury. Thanks for presuming. What I am pointing out is that you are diluting the meaning of the term, wittingly or not.
The expression of racial prejudices is racist.
No, it is not. People can form a prejudice based on their experience that has nothing to do with superiority. For example. Say a nonwhite person living in a hard part of town has only had bad experiences with whites. They can easily form a prejudice of all white people based on their shitty experiences with a few.
It is amazing for you to be so upset and so purposefully ignorant.
Thank you for assuming I am an unhinged loon. Thanks for trying to marginilize me into submission. Thanks for saying I don't know wtf I am talking about because I have zero knowledge of anything about this.
So, you are ... not on the side of being against racism? Sounds about right from your dumbass indignation.
So, if I point out that language actually means something, and the dilution of it is not useful that I must be against ending racism. Talk about going to extremes.
You are on a bandwagon too.
See here...here is a contextual example of using the term bandwagon in a general fashion to denote group thinking compared to meaning of direct superiority.
Funny, you degraded the whole conversation and those taking part of their disgusting intellectual dishonesty and then refuse to own your own outrage. Fucking child.
You answered nothing accurately or intelligently.
To quickly recap your bullshit.
A) you said you were upset by all of us group thinking people that are inadvertently the very enemy we hate.
B) you used an incorrect definition in order to redefine what a bigot is and what prejudice is.
C) This one is stupid .... Yes you can treat someone bad people cause their race without thinking you are hitlers dream. Obvious and one of your most disingenuous points. Looking at someone putting them in a box and treating them differently because of race is an expression of racism and your argument that is it not, is horseshit. I can call a Jew a dirty hate word or a Chinese person one, I do not need to think I am better than them for it to be racist. What type of assholery is this.
By your logic nothing can be racist unless one of the races has an argument to superiority.
Once again, you said you were upset and outraged at how horrible people are for this conversation, and wrote your shit post. Then you just shit posted again. Quote all day long, if the arguments you make up are pulled out of your ass and smell like shit. It is all the same.
You got your response. You are someone who doesn't understand words and tries to reinvent their meanings in order to break the spell of wokeness and fit some mold that you made up aka just more gaslighting bullshit.
And your last point, doesn't even make sense. You are the worst attempt at arm-chair neckbearding I've seen in a while. For a more reasonable approach to your horseshit logic, see nearly every posts between your posts.
On September 25 2020 01:32 NonY wrote: the more evil people are the ones who learned to control themselves but are amused by people who can't. and they use a loophole in the concept or personal responsibility that a person is always responsible for their own actions even though another person can influence those actions. so they provoke the upset person in order to deepen or prolong their negative emotions, just to laugh at them. and feel morally superior at the same time. if that's a habit of yours, start working on controlling it.
This is very true. But there's some deeper nuance to this unfortunate phenomenon.
I come from a place with three very distinct ethnic groups. Two groups (majority and minority) are more emotionally-charged - quick to be triggered by hate speech, and quick to employ hate speech as well. The third group (minority) is more laidback and resilient - they can shrug away hate speech easily, and enjoy poking fun at their own stereotypes, perceived and real (in fact, most actually embrace the stereotypes cast upon them, and are rather 'indifferent' towards the whole 'racism' debate).
Here are three interesting facts: - The two groups are more involved in violent racial spates. - The 'more evil people' are actually the community leaders of these two groups (community leaders of the third group are focused on more practical matters, such as economy, employment and education) - The third group just go on their business (and as a result, has become the most economically and socially stable of all three groups).
Moral of the story? I'll let you make up your own minds.
It's tough. While I can't recall ever using the N word, I definitely used an alternative homophobic variant quite regularly in high school and possibly even some of college. Can't recall the last time I've actually used the word, but my perspective has definitely turned from "it's just part of the culture" to "it doesn't have a place in gaming" as I've gotten older.
On September 25 2020 01:32 NonY wrote: the more evil people are the ones who learned to control themselves but are amused by people who can't. and they use a loophole in the concept or personal responsibility that a person is always responsible for their own actions even though another person can influence those actions. so they provoke the upset person in order to deepen or prolong their negative emotions, just to laugh at them. and feel morally superior at the same time. if that's a habit of yours, start working on controlling it.
This is very true. But there's some deeper nuance to this unfortunate phenomenon.
I come from a place with three very distinct ethnic groups. Two groups (majority and minority) are more emotionally-charged - quick to be triggered by hate speech, and quick to employ hate speech as well. The third group (minority) is more laidback and resilient - they can shrug away hate speech easily, and enjoy poking fun at their own stereotypes, perceived and real (in fact, most actually embrace the stereotypes cast upon them, and are rather 'indifferent' towards the whole 'racism' debate).
Here are three interesting facts: - The two groups are more involved in violent racial spates. - The 'more evil people' are actually the community leaders of these two groups (community leaders of the third group are focused on more practical matters, such as economy, employment and education) - The third group just go on their business (and as a result, has become the most economically and socially stable of all three groups).
Moral of the story? I'll let you make up your own minds.
Martin Luther king talked about the sort of negative peace. that people want where those affected to simply be quiet as if that fixes the problem. That doesn't solve any of the problems though as you still have inequality and the tension that automatically comes with it. The solution is to move towards a peacful solution in harmony. If you're curious it's laid out pretty well in His letter from Birmingham Jail he wrote.
a short excerpt.
I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.
I don't see how accepting hate speech accomplishes anything but accepting an inferior position and creating more problems. Again we're talking about video games here though not larger philosophical issues or economic issues. And I'm not like super mad about it. I just think video game companies should be strict in moderating it. We're not talking about how to solve economic inequality or anything we're talking about racial slurs in video games.
On September 25 2020 01:32 NonY wrote: the more evil people are the ones who learned to control themselves but are amused by people who can't. and they use a loophole in the concept or personal responsibility that a person is always responsible for their own actions even though another person can influence those actions. so they provoke the upset person in order to deepen or prolong their negative emotions, just to laugh at them. and feel morally superior at the same time. if that's a habit of yours, start working on controlling it.
This is very true. But there's some deeper nuance to this unfortunate phenomenon.
I come from a place with three very distinct ethnic groups. Two groups (majority and minority) are more emotionally-charged - quick to be triggered by hate speech, and quick to employ hate speech as well. The third group (minority) is more laidback and resilient - they can shrug away hate speech easily, and enjoy poking fun at their own stereotypes, perceived and real (in fact, most actually embrace the stereotypes cast upon them, and are rather 'indifferent' towards the whole 'racism' debate).
Here are three interesting facts: - The two groups are more involved in violent racial spates. - The 'more evil people' are actually the community leaders of these two groups (community leaders of the third group are focused on more practical matters, such as economy, employment and education) - The third group just go on their business (and as a result, has become the most economically and socially stable of all three groups).
Moral of the story? I'll let you make up your own minds.
Martin Luther king talked about the sort of negative peace. that people want where those affected to simply be quiet as if that fixes the problem. That doesn't solve any of the problems though as you still have inequality and the tension that automatically comes with it. The solution is to move towards a peacful solution in harmony. If you're curious it's laid out pretty well in His letter from Birmingham Jail he wrote.
I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.
I don't see how accepting hate speech accomplishes anything but accepting an inferior position and creating more problems. Again we're talking about video games here though not larger philosophical issues or economic issues. And I'm not like super mad about it. I just think video game companies should be strict in moderating it. We're not talking about how to solve economic inequality or anything we're talking about racial slurs in video games.
I'm speaking from pragmatism, not philosophy. I'm citing from hard facts, not scholarly quotes
There are 101 problems stemming from racism and discrimination. It's naive - if not impossible - to solve all of them. Prioritise. Pick your battles.
Group 3 focused on mitigating discrimination through economic and educational reforms.
Group 1 and 2 were more focused on 'abstract' battles of discrimination (e.g. religious buildings, hate speech, etc).
Today, Group 3 are more successful as a community. They achieved their long-term goals, and did not get bogged down into 'cultural' wars. Oh, their culture is as well intact as Group 1 and 2.
Maybe Group 3 people gets more verbal abuse than the rest due to their 'meekness'. But it's not a 'surrender'. They just don't care. Words are just words. Food on the table, a nice house, stable family - now, those are things worth fighting for.
Edit: And even if hate speech bothered Group 3, there's a choice to be made with limited resources. Do they start a campaign against video game companies demanding for stronger filters against hate speech? Or do they better invest their time demanding the local government build a new school in their community? It's a no-brainer question for Group 3. Call it lack of ambition, but they usually end up achieving 1/2 goals by focusing on 1 goal (rather than other minority groups achieving 0/2 goals by trying to focus on both).
Meh, let them write whatever they like as long as they're not threating my family. It's a stranger on the internet, if a such person can offend me, it says more about me than the person trying to offend me.
I mean it's all connected and focusing on one rather than the other doesn't really solve the issue. Jews are well off economically in America does that mean their not subject to racial inequality? No. If someone spraypaints a swastika on a synagogue should the community just shrug it off if their an affluent community? There are many black American who are incredibly Successful? does this mean racism doesn't effect them or they can just sit there as if nothing is happening? No and you see this by the statements they put out. Chinese Americans are one of the highest educated ethnic groups in America in terms of college education? does that mean they don't face racism and should just shut up about it? No. If the system requires you to accept hate speech to be successful than the system if fundamentally flawed.
Secondly Martin Luther king wasn't just writing scholarly articles. He was directly marching to try to address inequality and he wrote that letter from a prison cell after being arrested for peacefully protesting. So it's not just a scholarly article.
I don't know why you insist on making it an either or thing. Sure you can build the schools and everything and be successful but that doesn't solve the issues of being treated as inferior or unequal. There has been tons of things written on this by minorities especially amount he Black community in America. You're basically saying people should accept never being accepted and being constantly discriminated against simply because it's in their economic interest which shows that the entire system is messed up. A prerequisite to being successful should not be being okay with a racist system. Cultural wars is generally a term made up by those in power to deny those without powers rights so it becomes less about inequality than an equal battle over differing values. I'm not saying you're doing that but a lot of times that is a way used to deflect and blame the community instead of trying to address the issues that their saying are affecting them. Usually the people in the actual communities know the best way their communities can be helped and long lectures about how they need to stop complaining accept being called racial slurs and focus on solving their economic inequality is not it.
Finally there's plenty of studies on the negative effects of racism in ways that are more than just economic. Also in most countries the system itself is built in a way that makes the sort of economic achievements your talking about way more difficult. All people want is to be treated with respect and not demeaned over their ethnicity. All the money in the world won't magically make those things go away. You just seem to think thing that everything is solved solely by economic power and there's countless examples of that not being the case. There's a baseball player who was pulled over by the police like 20 times because he was a Latino driving a fancy car, all the money in the world won't make the effects of racism go away. And why can't we try to get rid of racism? You seem to be starting with an awfully nihilistic opinion that we're stuck with a significant amount of racism that can't go away so we have to decide which part of it we want to go away and which part we want to live with. The goal should be to try to reduce it as much as possible across the board because ultimately its all interconnected. And finally you're not posting statistics, you're posting your personal interpretation of what's going on which is subject to your own biases and probably a lack of familiarity with the relevant statistics and academic work on the subject, Anyway I'm going to bed. I apologize if this came off harsh, I wasn't trying to be I'm just listing where I disagree, it's late and I don't have the energy to edit everything. I get where you're coming from but from my work with minority communities where I live I see it very differently. I agree that sometimes communities can waste time on grievances that don't matter or perceived racism that may be questionable but I don't think Explicit hate speech in the form of racial slurs is something that should be accepted. I'm not saying devote all the energy to trying to bring the full arm of the law on people for doing it but I feel there's a medium between that and simply learning to live with it as a part of your everyday life. Prob won't post more in this thread. I feel I've stated my viewpoint pretty clearly and I generally try to avoid spending too much time arguing. I'd rather state my piece and let people make up their minds. Finally sorry for the overly long wall of text. Just want to get it all off before I peace out.
OK, let's decide what's the thread about. This is about racial slurs in general gaming, or SC2, isn't it? So giving examples from the real world is IMO senseless.
So, this is not the real world. unless you say share something about you - you're completely anonymous(even in games with a voice chat, voice filters exists!). Nobody knows your religion, color, nationality, weight, height, sex and size of your penis. So if anyone says to you something racist - is it racism when they don't know your race? And if calling you with a racial slur and it offends you, it IMO says more about you.
Racism is bad, but it does work ONLY if it offends you and only if the offending person KNOWS your race. Which happens on the non-anonymized part of the internets(e.g. facebook) and in the real world. Not in the anonymous gaming(and yes, pro players and streamers are not anonymous).
Granted, that's my twisted upbringing, but i for life of me can't understand the way americans get all careful over a handful of slurs. Because down here, we learn to not get too emotional over words in kindergarten already. If anything, a strong reaction to any insult down here is always interpreted as sign of insecurity.
But as to the question asked by OP, are these people racist or not. Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't, its impossible for us to know if a player says these words because they are "bad" or if they say them because they personally think these racial slurs are the worst thing you can call someone.
Like if a person is an actual racist they would call others that they want to offend by racial degrading terms, simply because being of that race is in their eyes a very bad and offending. While others are not racist and just using the words because its what makes most people upset or for any reason really.
The important thing is how we choose to raise our kids (those of us that have/gets kids), knowledge and education is power and so is teaching by example.
On September 25 2020 16:48 lolfail9001 wrote: I won't lie, this thread is so hilarious.
Granted, that's my twisted upbringing, but i for life of me can't understand the way americans get all careful over a handful of slurs. Because down here, we learn to not get too emotional over words in kindergarten already. If anything, a strong reaction to any insult down here is always interpreted as sign of insecurity.
Same here, the usual reaction is to not take it so seriously. My mum loves to say, that she can be offended only by smart folks and that shouting obscenities isn't exactly smart, is it?
On September 25 2020 16:33 deacon.frost wrote: OK, let's decide what's the thread about. This is about racial slurs in general gaming, or SC2, isn't it? So giving examples from the real world is IMO senseless.
So, this is not the real world. unless you say share something about you - you're completely anonymous(even in games with a voice chat, voice filters exists!). Nobody knows your religion, color, nationality, weight, height, sex and size of your penis. So if anyone says to you something racist - is it racism when they don't know your race? And if calling you with a racial slur and it offends you, it IMO says more about you.
Racism is bad, but it does work ONLY if it offends you and only if the offending person KNOWS your race. Which happens on the non-anonymized part of the internets(e.g. facebook) and in the real world. Not in the anonymous gaming(and yes, pro players and streamers are not anonymous).
You are quite correct. The international standard of 'hate speech' requires a close triangular connection between speaker, intended audience, and intention to incite hatred. It's doubtful that in-game racial slurs would meet the standard.
Nevertheless, I'm trying to empathise with the concern of the OP (and his/her supporters). From what I understand, they see in-game racism as a social problem which manifest in real life (e.g. normalisation of racist slurs can 'indoctrinate' kids to be racist). Remove in-game racism, and you tackle the wider issue of racism as a whole. That's where the debate seems to be heading (rightly or wrongly).
We all went through the gaming phase when we used every horrible word in any kind of language to insult people and vent.
Is that ok? Maybe not by the current American woke standard, maybe yes in some certain countries and settings, I'm not sure. However, I find it quite essential for the online gaming experience of a boy growing up. I would raise eyebrows but not really mind if my boy behaves that way in CSGOGO 10 years later, I was there before.
On September 25 2020 16:33 deacon.frost wrote: OK, let's decide what's the thread about. This is about racial slurs in general gaming, or SC2, isn't it? So giving examples from the real world is IMO senseless.
So, this is not the real world. unless you say share something about you - you're completely anonymous(even in games with a voice chat, voice filters exists!). Nobody knows your religion, color, nationality, weight, height, sex and size of your penis. So if anyone says to you something racist - is it racism when they don't know your race? And if calling you with a racial slur and it offends you, it IMO says more about you.
Racism is bad, but it does work ONLY if it offends you and only if the offending person KNOWS your race. Which happens on the non-anonymized part of the internets(e.g. facebook) and in the real world. Not in the anonymous gaming(and yes, pro players and streamers are not anonymous).
You are quite correct. The international standard of 'hate speech' requires a close triangular connection between speaker, intended audience, and intention to incite hatred. It's doubtful that in-game racial slurs would meet the standard.
Nevertheless, I'm trying to empathise with the concern of the OP (and his/her supporters). From what I understand, they see in-game racism as a social problem which manifest in real life (e.g. normalisation of racist slurs can 'indoctrinate' kids to be racist). Remove in-game racism, and you tackle the wider issue of racism as a whole. That's where the debate seems to be heading (rightly or wrongly).
Yeah, while hip hop, rap and other mothern slurry genres are getting free card, because they don't affect children as much as videogames... either don't discriminate and affect everyone or no one.
A random Internet person, when you're both anonymized, can't offend you. All they want is the offended reaction and by giving it you're just fueling their "hate". And yes, it's not hate. They call you TeamLiquider if they have a chance to offend you.
People need to start taking classes on how to not get offended by a random internet pseudo-troll. One day they will get offended by a chat bot
On September 25 2020 18:57 GreenHorizons wrote: Is the "people shouldn't get offended" argument really not recognized as resoundingly oblivious here?
Yeah...
Let's also keep in mind that the discussion about racism is much younger in most European countries then in America. The 'where I grew up we don't take it too serious' argument might also point to the fact that the discussion around racism just isn't around yet, or in is around in a different form, in the place you are from. Speaking from a Dutch context, I think we are lagging about 10 years behind the discussions in America, i.e. the question whether blackfacing should be allowed as a national tradition is actually only discussed since a couple of years, something that would be unthinkable in the North-American context.
On September 25 2020 16:48 lolfail9001 wrote: I won't lie, this thread is so hilarious.
Granted, that's my twisted upbringing, but i for life of me can't understand the way americans get all careful over a handful of slurs. Because down here, we learn to not get too emotional over words in kindergarten already. If anything, a strong reaction to any insult down here is always interpreted as sign of insecurity.
"Russian doesn't care about racism" and more hot news coming, in just a second.
In the simplest sense, is the gaming experience of the majority enhanced by such behaviours? I’d say to a degree some good-natured banter, or some racial salt (of the SC race variety) does add some flavour and enjoyment. A lot of guys, myself included like that competitive machismo, to a degree.
From my time playing actual sports too I got it a lot, but that was abuse from my actual friends and it was on Wednesday night training, if I fucked up a shot or something. Crucially it wasn’t the other team en masse calling me a faggot or the n word every 5 seconds come matchday, and there were always handshakes after games.
It’s a difficult balancing act between allowing for a bit of fun and venting of aggression and having a very toxic environment.
I’d say we’re at an interesting juncture. Online gaming is a new phenomenon relatively speaking and it’s only now that we’re getting parents with experience of it having children entering it. If ever there’s a time to discuss such tenets as ‘it’s the internet, suck it up’ it’s now.
It’s a shame for example that our rules (we’re separated) for kiddo is no voice chat unless we’re playing together, because I think said kiddo gets a lot out of helping his team out and communicating, he’s good at games which has given him a lot of confidence too.
On September 25 2020 18:57 GreenHorizons wrote: Is the "people shouldn't get offended" argument really not recognized as resoundingly oblivious here?
Yeah...
Let's also keep in mind that the discussion about racism is much younger in most European countries then in America. The 'where I grew up we don't take it too serious' argument might also point to the fact that the discussion around racism just isn't around yet, or in is around in a different form, in the place you are from. Speaking from a Dutch context, I think we are lagging about 10 years behind the discussions in America, i.e. the question whether blackfacing should be allowed as a national tradition is actually only discussed since a couple of years, something that would be unthinkable in the North-American context.
No, Europe is the forefront of hate speech law - or more specifically, the European Court of Human Rights (which includes non-EU countries such as Russia and Turkey). Recently, in ES v Austria, a statement calling the Prophet Muhamamad as a pedophile was flagged as hate speech.
US constitutional law on free speech (First Amendment) is wayyyy more lenient.
Maybe there's more 'discussion' in US politics and media. But Europe has a more coherent and balanced legal regime on hate speech (some say going too far on restricting free speech, such as the ES v Austria case). Europe is certainly 'not behind' the US in terms of actual 'adults-in-the-room' discussion.
Please, America is not the first or centre of everything...
I'd generally like it if communication in online games were less toxic. There is far too much sexist, racist, homophobe, and all the other ways people can be bigoted in talk in online games.
Sadly, there does not seem to be a good solution to reduce this except for just limiting communication in general. I have no idea why it needs to be like this, but it seems to be basically impossible to get rid of.
On September 25 2020 18:57 GreenHorizons wrote: Is the "people shouldn't get offended" argument really not recognized as resoundingly oblivious here?
Yeah...
Let's also keep in mind that the discussion about racism is much younger in most European countries then in America. The 'where I grew up we don't take it too serious' argument might also point to the fact that the discussion around racism just isn't around yet, or in is around in a different form, in the place you are from. Speaking from a Dutch context, I think we are lagging about 10 years behind the discussions in America, i.e. the question whether blackfacing should be allowed as a national tradition is actually only discussed since a couple of years, something that would be unthinkable in the North-American context.
No, Europe is the forefront of hate speech law - or more specifically, the European Court of Human Rights (which includes non-EU countries such as Russia and Turkey). Recently, in ES v Austria, a statement calling the Prophet Muhamamad as a pedophile was flagged as hate speech.
US constitutional law on free speech (First Amendment) is wayyyy more lenient.
Maybe there's more 'discussion' in US politics and media. But Europe has a more coherent and balanced legal regime on hate speech (some say going too far on restricting free speech, such as the ES v Austria case). Europe is certainly 'not behind' the US in terms of actual 'adults-in-the-room' discussion.
Please, America is not the first or centre of everything...
I see, I am not so aware of the status of constitutional laws against hate speech / racism (was referring to an academic context). But that is good to know. I wanted to make a point to the 'in my country there is no racism' posts, as there might be more going on. Maybe there is a lack of discussion about racism?
On September 25 2020 18:57 GreenHorizons wrote: Is the "people shouldn't get offended" argument really not recognized as resoundingly oblivious here?
Yeah...
Let's also keep in mind that the discussion about racism is much younger in most European countries then in America. The 'where I grew up we don't take it too serious' argument might also point to the fact that the discussion around racism just isn't around yet, or in is around in a different form, in the place you are from. Speaking from a Dutch context, I think we are lagging about 10 years behind the discussions in America, i.e. the question whether blackfacing should be allowed as a national tradition is actually only discussed since a couple of years, something that would be unthinkable in the North-American context.
No, Europe is the forefront of hate speech law - or more specifically, the European Court of Human Rights (which includes non-EU countries such as Russia and Turkey). Recently, in ES v Austria, a statement calling the Prophet Muhamamad as a pedophile was flagged as hate speech.
US constitutional law on free speech (First Amendment) is wayyyy more lenient.
Maybe there's more 'discussion' in US politics and media. But Europe has a more coherent and balanced legal regime on hate speech (some say going too far on restricting free speech, such as the ES v Austria case). Europe is certainly 'not behind' the US in terms of actual 'adults-in-the-room' discussion.
Please, America is not the first or centre of everything...
I see, I am not so aware of the status of constitutional laws against hate speech / racism (was referring to an academic context). But that is good to know. I wanted to make a point to the 'in my country there is no racism' posts, as there might be more going on. Maybe there is a lack of discussion about racism?
Nope, it's just that it's stupid to talk about racism when it comes to conflicts like Russians vs Chechens whenever they occur (and oh boy, do they occur). Ethnicity plays a role, Culture does too, race however is completely irrelevant (because it's the only common ground between 2 parties). And i suspect it is like that in a whole lot of other places, Racism is only ever relevant in very specific places unless you want to redefine what racism even is.
On September 25 2020 16:48 lolfail9001 wrote: I won't lie, this thread is so hilarious.
Granted, that's my twisted upbringing, but i for life of me can't understand the way americans get all careful over a handful of slurs. Because down here, we learn to not get too emotional over words in kindergarten already. If anything, a strong reaction to any insult down here is always interpreted as sign of insecurity.
"Russian doesn't care about racism" and more hot news coming, in just a second.
On September 24 2020 20:30 Heyoka wrote: I have a funny and related story. For the launch of Heart of the Swam there was a big esport event on the Blizzard campus, which at the time was a big deal because the SC2 develops were pretty closely guarded at that time so as TL we didn't really get to interact with them much. While we were there Mike Morhaime invited me and HotBid to his office just to do introductions, chat a bit because we had never really met before. We didn't discuss anything serious but were ribbing one another and sharing memories, and one thing that came up was we mentioned we liked how the old system on Battlenet 1.0 worked with chat channels taking more precedent and having game names in the lobbies of custom games.
Mike's response was "It's nice but people really just use those to say racist things. Why let them?" and told us that's why all of it was removed in SC2.
As to your original question I don't know, but that's a concrete example of how us allowing all of this directly makes the gaming experience worse for everyone. We really should be striving to do better in our communities, which is one thing I'm generally proud of in SC2 that much less is tolerated than in some places. And I mean, you don't need to tell your kids racism was something that happened 200 years ago - it's very alive in the USA today and you can find all kinds of examples every day of how it has an effect on lives of people today.
And VonComet hate speech isn't tolerated as a part of freedom of speech so your edgy teenager point is irrelevant. Try harder next time.
Weird, in ten years of playing BW I rarely saw any kind of hateful speech of that manner in the chat channels, that stuff was always more in-game and whispers in my experience. Probably because of the ability to ban people from channels and chatbots and the extensive amount of active clans where a large part of the userbase parked themselves in. Be a jerk and get kicked. Not that there weren't lots of edgelords and corresponding channels where edgelordiness reigned supreme.
Also you suffer from the common misconception that hate speech, whatever that may mean, is not tolerated as a part of free speech. In actually free countries, it is. The negatives of suppressing hate speech, a term with a constantly shifting definition, far outweigh the positives of untrammeled exchange of opinions, even ridiculous ones like those rooted in bigotry.
@Heyoka On that note i do remmeber game names in old BW times being used to say offensive things but i do not recall them being used to say racist things. Most of the time it was just obscene things or targeted at specific users or teams/clans. Paradox games like EUIV still use games names in multiplayer and i never noticed anything improper there. I guess this is just a question of the playerbase.
The most classic example i recall from playing BW on netwars (polish server) is naming the game : "4/4 Hunters Loda" which rougly translates to 4/4 Hunter Blow Job
I personally have noticed that the general offensiveness of games has greatly decreased in the last few years. Maybe because the players of the games I play are aging, but I rarely see major ragecases anymore.
On September 25 2020 18:43 Arceus wrote: We all went through the gaming phase when we used every horrible word in any kind of language to insult people and vent.
Is that ok? Maybe not by the current American woke standard, maybe yes in some certain countries and settings, I'm not sure. However, I find it quite essential for the online gaming experience of a boy growing up. I would raise eyebrows but not really mind if my boy behaves that way in CSGOGO 10 years later, I was there before.
In what way is hate speech essential to the gaming experience? I can't believe I'm even having to ask this question by the way.
Who cares? Report them and move on. It's your problem if you take these online insults as personal. Oh and by the way, there's this useful option called "Mature Language Filter". Ever heard of it? You know why it's in every online video game?
It seems like you enjoy hunting these people down by not using the filter. It's as if you enjoy going on forums and farming karma points for your emotional empowerment.
On September 26 2020 01:31 Moonsalt wrote: Who cares? Report them and move on. It's your problem if you take these online insults as personal. Oh and by the way, there's this useful option called "Mature Language Filter". Ever heard of it? You know why it's in every online video game?
It seems like you enjoy hunting these people down by not using the filter. It's as if you enjoy going on forums and farming karma points for your emotional empowerment.
So why didn't you simply read this thread and move on? Why post anything in response, unless it's to do or say something that makes you feel righteous? If the OP shouldn't care about what random people on the internet say, why should you?
On September 26 2020 01:31 Moonsalt wrote: Who cares? Report them and move on. It's your problem if you take these online insults as personal. Oh and by the way, there's this useful option called "Mature Language Filter". Ever heard of it? You know why it's in every online video game?
It seems like you enjoy hunting these people down by not using the filter. It's as if you enjoy going on forums and farming karma points for your emotional empowerment.
So why didn't you simply read this thread and move on? Why post anything in response, unless it's to do or say something that makes you feel righteous? If the OP shouldn't care about what random people on the internet say, why should you?
Because it's a political thread at the top of the "StarCraft 2" section? It's clearly written with political desperation in an effort to cope against online racism, by farming karma points from people with similar frustrations. So yeah, I do feel pretty righteous by pointing out how stupid they are for taking it personally and making threads like these in the wrong place.
This is what happens when we discourage people from making the connections between the disgusting and unacceptable nature of telling women to put up with harassment in online communities and doing the same with racism.
On September 25 2020 23:10 Silvanel wrote: @Heyoka On that note i do remmeber game names in old BW times being used to say offensive things but i do not recall them being used to say racist things. Most of the time it was just obscene things or targeted at specific users or teams/clans. Paradox games like EUIV still use games names in multiplayer and i never noticed anything improper there. I guess this is just a question of the playerbase.
The most classic example i recall from playing BW on netwars (polish server) is naming the game : "4/4 Hunters Loda" which rougly translates to 4/4 Hunter Blow Job
What I remember is a lot of standard taunts you'd see in any schoolyard, insults about being fat, being a loser, being a virgin, being a fat virgin loser, that kind of dumb stuff. And yeah lots of crude sexual stuff to get attention and cheap laughs that wasn't directed at anyone as an insult like 4/4 Hunter Blow Job lol
And homophobic comments. Which were thrown out like candy to the point where there wasn't even any real heat behind them because that's how teenage and almost-teenage boys shit talked back then. And still do for all I know *shrug*
Racism was something I saw very rarely in the circles I associated with on B.Net playing BW, D2, and W3. And SC2 ripped the social aspect out of B.Net so hard that I barely ever talked with anyone playing it so if there was/is any outside of in-game bad manner I wouldn't see it anyway
If someone is raging out at you in any way and you want something to happen to them about it... report them. Blizzard has made it clear that's against the rules. It isn't 1999 anymore, they actually do something about it. From what I remember 8 million years ago if you wanted to complain about someone being so out there you had to e-mail Blizzard about it. People didn't think about things like that as being something that needed policies and procedures back then.
On September 26 2020 02:27 GreenHorizons wrote: This is what happens when we discourage people from making the connections between the disgusting and unacceptable nature of telling women to put up with harassment in online communities and doing the same with racism.
Any chance you could elaborate? I'm lost all of a sudden. The posts before yours kinda trailed off in a few directions all at once.
Team liquid used to be a place about starcraft, now it's just a place where it seems like every 2 weeks there is some sort of article that pushes some sort of behavior modification propaganda. Can TL just go back to being about starcraft instead of these phony epeen moral lessons? Seriously, it's getting REALLY old. This place was much better 10 years ago.
On September 26 2020 04:06 Sigh1022 wrote: Team liquid used to be a place about starcraft, now it's just a place where it seems like every 2 weeks there is some sort of article that pushes some sort of behavior modification propaganda. Can TL just go back to being about starcraft instead of these phony epeen moral lessons? Seriously, it's getting REALLY old. This place was much better 10 years ago.
Guess who pushed us all to self censor and be politically correct?
On the other side, we do have some serious issue with youth growing up with a lots of anger. Silencing and censoring people doesn't resolve the root issue of what's wrong.
On September 26 2020 04:06 Sigh1022 wrote: Team liquid used to be a place about starcraft, now it's just a place where it seems like every 2 weeks there is some sort of article that pushes some sort of behavior modification propaganda. Can TL just go back to being about starcraft instead of these phony epeen moral lessons? Seriously, it's getting REALLY old. This place was much better 10 years ago.
Guess who pushed us all to self censor and be politically correct?
On the other side, we do have some serious issue with youth growing up with a lots of anger. Silencing and censoring people doesn't resolve the root issue of what's wrong.
And who pushed people to self censor and be politically correct? Youth growing up with anger has always been a thing, it will always be a thing so long as parents are overburdened by the responsibilities and stresses of life as they tend to get overloaded with everything.
On September 26 2020 01:31 Moonsalt wrote: Who cares? Report them and move on. It's your problem if you take these online insults as personal. Oh and by the way, there's this useful option called "Mature Language Filter". Ever heard of it? You know why it's in every online video game?
It seems like you enjoy hunting these people down by not using the filter. It's as if you enjoy going on forums and farming karma points for your emotional empowerment.
Several people have mentioned this same point about the language filter; even NoNy replied with a very articulate post surrounding blocking chat altogether. However, my OP intentions were not to become an SJW and protest this kind of abusive chat (even though I, and many others, clearly abhor these comments) - I KNOW I can block them. My intentions where to call out the increased and pervasive use of these kinds of racially charged words in video games and understand from empirical standpoint why there is an observable increase in this type of language.
I don't believe the world has become more divided over centuries; in fact, I feel the US, over decades, have become more of a melting pot where race should become less of an issue. I have a brother in an interracial marriage along with many friends. I think the media takes a large role in sensationalizing the use of any derogatory words towards a single race, class, sex, ethnicity etc. My hypothesis, based on the poll and my own belief, is there are some toxic gamers that thrive off that sensationalism. I don't believe this world is becoming more divisive and racist; I think it is something perpetuated by the media and shoved down our throats to the point it emerges in our everyday life. But maybe I'm just a half glass full guy...
On September 26 2020 04:06 Sigh1022 wrote: Team liquid used to be a place about starcraft, now it's just a place where it seems like every 2 weeks there is some sort of article that pushes some sort of behavior modification propaganda. Can TL just go back to being about starcraft instead of these phony epeen moral lessons? Seriously, it's getting REALLY old. This place was much better 10 years ago.
Guess who pushed us all to self censor and be politically correct?
On the other side, we do have some serious issue with youth growing up with a lots of anger. Silencing and censoring people doesn't resolve the root issue of what's wrong.
And who pushed people to self censor and be politically correct? Youth growing up with anger has always been a thing, it will always be a thing so long as parents are overburdened by the responsibilities and stresses of life as they tend to get overloaded with everything.
You are totally right about that for youth being angry, and I think that has to do with hormones at teenage years. It was a bit rough for myself for sure. Overtime I've got a lot better with it.
I do recall during my teenage years the rage was much easier to generate.
On September 26 2020 04:06 Sigh1022 wrote: Team liquid used to be a place about starcraft, now it's just a place where it seems like every 2 weeks there is some sort of article that pushes some sort of behavior modification propaganda. Can TL just go back to being about starcraft instead of these phony epeen moral lessons? Seriously, it's getting REALLY old. This place was much better 10 years ago.
There’s plenty of topics purely about Starcraft. Indeed TL itself is pretty heavily moderated to a level relatively atypical of much of the internet.
Sorry if merely discussing what would constitute desirable behaviour in games offends your delicate sensibilities.
On September 26 2020 04:06 Sigh1022 wrote: Team liquid used to be a place about starcraft, now it's just a place where it seems like every 2 weeks there is some sort of article that pushes some sort of behavior modification propaganda. Can TL just go back to being about starcraft instead of these phony epeen moral lessons? Seriously, it's getting REALLY old. This place was much better 10 years ago.
It s normal behaviour and totally ok that people show affective bad behaviour, just ignore , not even needed to report. You cant estimate their situation in which they are to say things like that. And you cant demand a global etiquette for cultural individualism. Even though it sometimes seems to be interpreted more heavy than "culture", then it s more of a subculture. And the subculture could be at the edge of law in their country. Which would still be at the edge. You also cant demand to further raise these persons, without stepping into their safespace. On the other hand it could be that they reach yours with these insulting behaviour though.
just press the mute button, or maybe answer with a short help/love sentence, see where it goes, instead of growing more penalties and obstacles for the bad guy with reports, posting it on social media to destroy his identity or make other "counter" behaviours - no show
@pinky29: What exactly are you trying to accomplish with these threads? What is the end goal?
I think it's time for the thread to be moved out of SC2 General. The debate has spiraled towards the wider social problem with racism - which of course merits serious discussion, but is no longer SC2-specific and therefore doesn't belong here.
My guess is that pinky is an academic researcher and we're all his unwitting research guinea pigs
On September 26 2020 12:30 t_pure wrote: It s normal behaviour and totally ok that people show affective bad behaviour, just ignore , not even needed to report. You cant estimate their situation in which they are to say things like that. And you cant demand a global etiquette for cultural individualism. Even though it sometimes seems to be interpreted more heavy than "culture", then it s more of a subculture. And the subculture could be at the edge of law in their country. Which would still be at the edge. You also cant demand to further raise these persons, without stepping into their safespace. On the other hand it could be that they reach yours with these insulting behaviour though.
just press the mute button, or maybe answer with a short help/love sentence, see where it goes, instead of growing more penalties and obstacles for the bad guy with reports, posting it on social media to destroy his identity or make other "counter" behaviours - no show
I'm sorry, this is nonsense. There is no cultural difference that make is OK to drop the n-word on somebody because you are upset that you lost at a video game. You can in fact demand that people not behave so reprehensibly, and you absolutely should do so through the report feature. This conduct is directly detrimental to many peoples ability to enjoy a game, and is clearly a deliberate attempt to hurt someone.
This is what the report button is for. Use it liberally.
I think it's good that children get exposed to this on the internet at an early age.
The world isn't a bed of roses and it is inimical for children to be over-sheltered and mollycoddled. Better they learn how to deal with this at an early age in an online setting where there really aren't any consequences, than face it in a real life situation in adulthood and are unable to respond properly.
On September 26 2020 14:18 Pangpootata wrote: I think it's good that children get exposed to this on the internet at an early age.
The world isn't a bed of roses and it is inimical for children to be over-sheltered and mollycoddled. Better they learn how to deal with this at an early age in an online setting where there really aren't any consequences, than face it in a real life situation in adulthood and are unable to respond properly.
and how do you respond properly? where do you learn that from? online where they get to practice flaming? lol.
racism is a function of generations of education (or in-education). were it to exist outside of the video game but in an online setting, most of it will get shut down because it is obvious enough. otherwise, it gets ignored or it doesn't get attention. grow thicker skin is the most bailed-out response honestly. on an individual basis, you won't predict how it affects a kid's trajectory because of one horrible and unnecessary experience. "just don't flame each other with slurs" is also not going to happen. it's just one of those problems that will always exist, like guns, political parties, etc. in this case, people want to get angry with another person and the only thing they can come up with is the colour of their skin and how it relates to their perceived bias/knowledge of said group of individuals.
Game chat is pretty ridiculous these days. The best thing I ever did was go into the parental settings on my bnet account and mute chat in its entirety.
No longer do I have to read anything at all in the game, and it sounds like the answer to your problem is the same.
On September 25 2020 18:43 Arceus wrote: We all went through the gaming phase when we used every horrible word in any kind of language to insult people and vent.
Is that ok? Maybe not by the current American woke standard, maybe yes in some certain countries and settings, I'm not sure. However, I find it quite essential for the online gaming experience of a boy growing up. I would raise eyebrows but not really mind if my boy behaves that way in CSGOGO 10 years later, I was there before.
In what way is hate speech essential to the gaming experience? I can't believe I'm even having to ask this question by the way.
I get where you come from but not everything is "hate speech" where I live. Those can be considered "boys banter", or "toilet chat", or trashtalk in general.
I don't recommend it cuz I'm 30 now but I find it normal if my kid does it in-game. Play games, get competitive, rage, vent, have fun etc. It's the same as getting in a fight in classes, do stupid stuff and learn things.
And I sure as hell will teach my children to not be offended by everything single word in the dictionary.
On September 26 2020 18:07 RKC wrote: Keeping your cool no matter how hurtful the insult hurled against you could mean a world of a difference. For you, your team, and your entire nation.
Ask Zidane...
Zidane wasn't offended via anonymous user on the internets.
Edit> What's this doing in SC2 general now is beyond my recognition, it moved so far from SC2 as possible.
@pinky29: What exactly are you trying to accomplish with these threads? What is the end goal?
First off, it's not like I spam TL...I probably make 1 post every few months. I've been around since 2000; I couldn't remember my PW so I used my steam account. So if you're basing this off my membership length, please don't. Second, if you are equating BM to someone saying the N-word I think there is a problem. This is an observation after 20 years of gaming on racial slurs becoming more prominent in all sorts of games (including sc2).
In case you didn't see my comments about 3 posts above yours...I guess my end goal is edification...
Several people have mentioned this same point about the language filter; even NoNy replied with a very articulate post surrounding blocking chat altogether. However, my OP intentions were not to become an SJW and protest this kind of abusive chat (even though I, and many others, clearly abhor these comments) - I KNOW I can block them. My intentions where to call out the increased and pervasive use of these kinds of racially charged words in video games and understand from empirical standpoint why there is an observable increase in this type of language.
I don't believe the world has become more divided over centuries; in fact, I feel the US, over decades, have become more of a melting pot where race should become less of an issue. I have a brother in an interracial marriage along with many friends. I think the media takes a large role in sensationalizing the use of any derogatory words towards a single race, class, sex, ethnicity etc. My hypothesis, based on the poll and my own belief, is there are some toxic gamers that thrive off that sensationalism. I don't believe this world is becoming more divisive and racist; I think it is something perpetuated by the media and shoved down our throats to the point it emerges in our everyday life. But maybe I'm just a half glass full guy...
EDIT: And no this is not for some sort of study. I'm authentically interested in the topic. Feel free to close the thread if it detracts from the focus of this site; however, it is clear the community has already injected different "vibrant" opinions. Thank you.
Please don't close this thread just because the OP didn't get the exact response he is looking for (apparently for the second time). An OP should not get to own a thread.
Anyways, I think it bears repeating: there is a mature language filter automatically on in SC2, at least back in WoL, though I suspect many turned it off and forgot it ever existed judging from this thread. The OP turned the filter off, just so he could make this thread. That is beyond ridiculous.
On September 24 2020 18:30 pinky29 wrote: I'm 38 with 2 kids (one of which is pre-teen at 11). I only mention my age because I've played SC a very long time and I see some opponents using very inflammatory words outside the typical "go kill yourself".
On September 26 2020 22:44 pinky29 wrote: First off, it's not like I spam TL...I probably make 1 post every few months. I've been around since 2000; I couldn't remember my PW so I used my steam account. So if you're basing this off my membership length, please don't. Second, if you are equating BM to someone saying the N-word I think there is a problem. This is an observation after 20 years of gaming on racial slurs becoming more prominent in all sorts of games (including sc2).
I think this is more about anonymity than video game playing. According to my dad and his 4 brothers, and almost everyone else I've talked to over 50 .... 80s video game arcades featured almost zero racial slurs. In fact, the slightest bit of mouthing off and you best be prepared for a vicious scrap in the parking lot. Kick out the power chord when some guy was on his way to breaking a long standing high score.. and it was rumble time. During that era high scores were serious business for a reasonable percentage of the players. To wit..
EDIT: i socialize with the guy who owns the best internet cafe in Toronto. His family owned and ran an 80s video game arcade on the busiest street in toronto. He noticed very little racial slurs.
In conclusion, I'd say this is mostly about the paradigms created by anonymous communication platforms rather than about video game playing.
On September 25 2020 18:43 Arceus wrote: We all went through the gaming phase when we used every horrible word in any kind of language to insult people and vent.
Is that ok? Maybe not by the current American woke standard, maybe yes in some certain countries and settings, I'm not sure. However, I find it quite essential for the online gaming experience of a boy growing up. I would raise eyebrows but not really mind if my boy behaves that way in CSGOGO 10 years later, I was there before.
In what way is hate speech essential to the gaming experience? I can't believe I'm even having to ask this question by the way.
I get where you come from but not everything is "hate speech" where I live. Those can be considered "boys banter", or "toilet chat", or trashtalk in general.
I don't recommend it cuz I'm 30 now but I find it normal if my kid does it in-game. Play games, get competitive, rage, vent, have fun etc. It's the same as getting in a fight in classes, do stupid stuff and learn things.
And I sure as hell will teach my children to not be offended by everything single word in the dictionary.
Agreed, it's not all hate speech, I just singled that part out. I guess I'm drawing the line at hate speech because I think competitive banter and trash talk is different. Still I wouldn't call it essential to gaming though.
The online aspect definitely must play into it. It certainly can't be broadly attributed to gaming, because as people have pointed out, arcades and other offline events seem to lack this issue or it at least doesn't appear to happen.
The solutions are there filters and blocking, but when it comes to topics like this one, video games are the lower hanging fruit everything that can be said about games can be said about other forms of entertainment. As a father of two my self I feel it’s my job and responsibility to teach my kids to be good people and also teach my kids how to deal with someone calling them names online. I’ve seen people using kids to to push an agenda specially in video games, for example the tracer pose in overwatch and the R. Mika butt slap in street fighter. At the end of the day I feel that if we let someone’s words affect us that much, there are probably bigger problems we have to deal with as individuals than worrying about a video game.
I have to say, there's a certain irony that I can't help but noticing but have trouble putting into words.
It seems strange to me that the staunchest defenders of this relatively new, woke ideology have no qualms about enforcing American norms and mores on the rest of the world.
Case in point, the streamer who used the Voldemort word on stream. He used it AS a slur, so that's a point against him (rather than, say, someone reading a passage of Huckleberry Finn or singing along to a Kanye song). But then you realise he didn't use it to attack a member of the race the word is descriptive of, and apparently he is Swedish, so he doesn't carry the cultural burden that word would carry if an American had used it.
Yet, with no hint of irony, the wokest of the woke insist that he be defenestrated, and that he be judged by American standards. So I'm curious, do the same Americans who make sure to condemn the use of words that are most culturally insensitive in their culture take pains to make sure that they don't use words that are insensitive in other cultures?
Because I've definitely noticed that they use the slur "gipsies" with reckless abandon, and Roma in my country went through the kind of hell that makes American slavery look like a slightly unpleasant trip to the DMV.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5fuVozT.jpg)
- somehow it seems politics makes it matter.
