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Coronavirus and You - Page 67

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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.

It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.

Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.

This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.

Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
March 20 2020 23:00 GMT
#1321
Not really particularly striking news, but for folks who have played the flash game Pandemic / Pandemic 2 in the past, an interesting fact of the day is that Madagascar has reported its first cases of the infection.

ANTANANARIVO (Reuters) - The island nation of Madagascar confirmed its first cases of coronavirus on Friday, the president said in a televised statement.

The three cases of coronavirus were confirmed by the Institut Pasteur de Madagascar, President Andry Rajoelina said.

Madagascar, one of the world's poorest nations, halted all all international flights this week to try to prevent cases of the virus.

Source
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ggrrg
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Bulgaria2716 Posts
March 20 2020 23:17 GMT
#1322
On March 20 2020 19:06 r00ty wrote:
Never panic, but after talking to friends and family a lot yesterday, I'm worried: The supply chain is a lot weaker than we are expecting and being told. Essential wokers are not protected. People didn't understand and Italy will be everywhere. Triage will be everywhere. Worst economy crash in history.

The EU might not survive this, we're not able to help each other.

Edit: I mean politically. Not everyone is gonna die.


1. It is true that there are tremendous problems in the supply chain for many industries. E.g. the main reason named by German car manufacturers for stopping production is the inability to receive all necessary components to continue production (personally, I’d say that an expected dive in demand for new cars is another major reason as well). It is expected that a large part of the higher tech industry in Europe is having the same issues right now. However, I very much doubt that this applies to essential items for one’s daily needs. Chicken farms are not sourcing parts from 30 different countries on 5 different continents, neither are bakeries, cow barns, or toilet paper manufacturers for that matter. The ability to feed the population and provide supplies for daily needs is probably guaranteed within every single EU country, and Germany is among the very last EU countries to fear any shortages of basic supplies, since all necessary items are produced locally with locally sourced precursor products. I cannot guarantee you that you will be able to receive Australian kangaroo meat or Ecuadorian shrimps in the next months, but it would pretty much require an apocalypse and then a couple of years until you cannot get German bread, milk, potatoes, chicken wings, beer, toilet paper, etc. The EU as an institution and multiple member countries have been heavily criticized for their heavy subsidies to the agricultural sector for at least a decade, and for all the issues these subsidies have caused in developing nations, they also mean that the EU is the last place on earth to worry about food supplies in any crisis: The EU as a whole has been the largest food exporter in the world since 2013.
The empty shelves you are seeing in the supermarkets are due to the fact that the local stock in the supermarket has been calculated for a certain level of demand. This calculation has not taken into account morons that buy a year’s worth of toilet paper and pasta. Thus the contracts with producers and the scheduled deliveries are currently out of sync with the momentary spike in demand. The production itself is unaffected; the stocked supplies are there, but simply have not been moved yet. Essential items will remain in stock and supplies currently sold out will be back in normal qualities (at least in Europe) within 2-4 weeks after restocking schedules have been adjusted to the new situation.

2. I do not know what you mean by “essential workers”. If you happen to have people like grocery store cashiers in mind, then yeah, they are not protected. But they are also rarely 70+ with multiple comorbidities. It may sound a bit cynical, but objectively on average they should be about as much at risk from Covid-19 complications the general population. Taking into account that Merkel and the RKI announced that 60-70% of the German population could eventually get infected with the virus + Show Spoiler +
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/video206489421/Merkel-zu-Corona-60-bis-70-Prozent-der-Bevoelkerung-koennten-infiziert-werden.html
, it just means that these workers will be among the first ones to get infected, but not that they will be dying more often than others.
If you happen to have medical professionals in mind… then yeah… they are indeed in danger of lacking sufficient protection very soon, which would cause a whole lot of issues down the line. One of the main reasons for the movement restrictions in Germany is to buy more time for medical preparations, which includes the sourcing of sufficient protection for doctors and nurses. It is anyone’s guess how this will unfold. Personally (and my opinion on this topic is nothing but a wild guess), I feel like the German government is currently taking pragmatic and decisive measures that will eventually largely (hopefully completely) alleviate protection issues for medical personnel, but I would not bet my life on it…

3. People did not understand “it” and unfortunately way too many people still do not understand “it”. Fortunately, regular people do not need to understand everything. The important thing is that governments and people in relevant positions have a sufficient understanding to implement the correct measures. If that’s the case or not is beyond my judgment, but it seems nearly impossible that everywhere will end up like Italy. For one, I feel like Bulgaria is taking the right steps in a timely manner and fully expect the country’s results to look much better than Italy’s despite having a much poorer state of health care and significantly less resources. Germany also seems to be (finally) heading in the right direction and I doubt it will be as bad as in Italy here, but the early delay may still end up costing many lives. I cannot comment at all on how other countries will fare. Odds are that there will be other places that are heading towards the same disaster as Italy… Either way, the last few sentences are solely my uneducated opinion, which nobody should put too much stock in.

4. Once again everywhere is too strong of a statement. Italy was absolutely not prepared and had the bad luck of being hit much earlier than anywhere else in the West. Additionally, there is vast number of socio-economic and cultural factors who in the end may turn out to have been hugely contributing to the overall development (or not, who knows). Either way, it is extremely unlikely that the entire world gets hit the same way as Italy was. Living in Germany, I feel like the country still has a chance to “skate by” at least in comparison to Italy. For obvious reasons, I cannot say how much of my guestimate is based on the political measures taken, the health care system in place, the available resources and experience, and how much on wishful thinking and my personal biases.

5. At this point, it is obvious that there will be a significant recession. It also appears to be anyone’s guess just how bad it is going to be. I have read estimates and predictions from renowned institutions and random “experts” ranging from -0.6% GDP growth for Italy this year (which I feel is utopian) to over 20% unemployment across Europe within a couple of months. I certainly cannot say what is going to happen, but it appears that so far nobody can. As of yet, there seems to be no solid indication if it will be any worse for the general population than previous crashes in the past 50 years.

On March 20 2020 19:45 Furikawari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2020 19:09 SC-Shield wrote:


Active cases
147,139
Recovered cases
88,450
Fatal cases
10,052


For some people it's probably not good enough, but I'm happy to see so many recovered cases. Hopefully we can increase ratio in favour of that.

Hmmm yeah, so think about this, what those numbers show is that more than 10% of ended cases end with death. I saw those numbers few days ago and didnt spend time to understand where the difference with the 2 to 5% that is usually sold by the media comes from, if anyone here has an answer...


On March 20 2020 19:56 Furikawari wrote:
Ok that makes sense, thank you. But still, that means the death ratio must be underestimated, but not as much as I thought.


First of all, the death ratio is not underestimated. As a matter of fact, any calculation based on recorded cases of recovered vs died is with 100% certainty guaranteed to be an overestimation for any country with communal spread (which is effectively every country with more than 10 recorded cases and without a shred of doubt every country with more than 1000 cases). As deacon.frost already said, there is a lag due to the fact that on average dying occurs much faster than being announced as recovered. The much more significant reason, however, is the fact that it is absolutely impossible to register every single infection. People without symptoms will never be checked for the virus. They will get infected and beat the virus without anyone ever knowing that they were infected to begin with and thus they will never show up in the statistic. People with mild symptoms are also unlikely to ever reach out for any testing. According to the official estimates, 80% of the infected will have either no symptoms or only mild symptoms. These people will for the most part never appear in any of the recorded cases since they will never be tested. It is not a secret that most countries have neither a sufficient amount of test kits nor the personnel and capacity to process enough tests to check everybody. Some countries like Italy and Japan + Show Spoiler +
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Coronavirus-Why-Japan-tested-so-few-people
are openly saying that they test very far from everybody who could have been infected (albeit for different reasons), the US for example admitted to not having enough test kits for widespread testing, in Germany a virologist who came to fame during the crisis said in an interview today that they are not able to trace everyone infected and they do not care to trace everyone infected (quote: “if a healthy student is sitting in home quarantine and watching Netflix, I, as a doctor, do not need to know that she would test positive… But when my 70 yo patient gets sick and is isolated at home, I would like to test him and then call every other day to see how his breathing is), instead people should abide to the hygiene and self-isolation rules + Show Spoiler +
very interesting interview, but in German: https://www.zeit.de/wissen/gesundheit/2020-03/christian-drosten-coronavirus-pandemie-deutschland-virologe-charite
. Then you have cases like Testie in this very thread when a person is rightfully worried of possibly being infected but not being able to get tested. An isolated instance cannot be used as proof of anything, but similar stories are being heard all around where I live in Germany, which makes me believe that it is not particularly rare.
On the other hand, one can assume that the overwhelming majority of people who die of the new virus get recorded in the statistic.
Nobody can say how many of the asymptomatic and mild cases get recorded, but there is not a shred of doubt that many such cases do not get recorded, which makes the death ratio calculated based on the recorded numbers an overestimation. Given the lack of testing capacity in most places around the world, it appears fairly safe to say that a large portion of the infected people are not part of the official records, which means that the death ratio you calculate is a significant overestimation. If we go by the official estimate of 80% mild cases, if none of those get recorded, you need to divide the numbers you calculate by 5, resulting in 2% mortality instead of the 10% you get from the previous calculation. It is of course not that simple, since there are mild cases that are indeed being recorded. However, due to the exponential growth of infections in the West currently, your basic calculation is significantly skewed by a lag in testing and a lag till people are officially declared recovered.

There is one more component that significantly distorts any calculations on death rate based on recorded cases. The official estimates say that 5% of the infected will be in critical condition. The estimates, I have seen, on the mortality from the virus vary between 0.5% and 2%. Let’s say you have 100.000 infected people at a given moment. Out of those you would expect 5.000 to be in critical condition. Let’s say that with the right treatment, you will still end up with 1.000 people dying (1% overall mortality). However, without the right treatment, you can expect that all 5.000 will die. This is an issue that is currently affecting Italy (and was previously affecting Wuhan till the lockdown took effect). There is no capacity to treat everybody, so the death rate is much higher than it would else be. For this reason, varying degrees of lockdowns are being implemented all around the world. The goal is to prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed. It also has an effect on any mortality calculation based solely on the recorded cases. As mentioned in the beginning, deaths occur on average significantly faster than labeling people as recovered. If using the fictional numbers I mentioned above of 5.000 people dying instead of only 1.000, it means that the time difference between people being declared as dead to people being declared as recovered is now 5 times more impactful on the mortality calculation based on recorded cases. If we add the fictional assumption that all 80% of mild cases do not get recorded, which also impacts the calculation by a factor of 5, your mortality calculation is suddenly off by a factor of 5x5=25, which would mean that your calculated 10% mortality is in reality only 0.4%. I want to make clear that I neither claim nor believe that the mortality of the virus is only 0.4%. I have every reason to trust the official estimates of 0.5%-2%. + Show Spoiler +
or this recent estimate: https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/16/lower-coronavirus-death-rate-estimates/
I just wanted to show examples why one cannot calculate the mortality with any degree of certainty simply based on the recorded cases of deaths vs recovered (or infected for that matter).
SC-Shield
Profile Joined December 2018
Bulgaria832 Posts
March 20 2020 23:21 GMT
#1323
I think Italy had 41k cases yesterday and today it has 47k. Huge jump. Also, Germany overtook Iran which no one seems to talk about. Spain looks like it's going to be the next Italy.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26021 Posts
March 20 2020 23:21 GMT
#1324
Good read ggrrg, thanks for taking the time.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
March 20 2020 23:35 GMT
#1325
Oregon (Kate Brown)sending out warning signals we're about to be shelter-in-home. Not sure what that means I should get while I can. Hmmm.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-20 23:51:30
March 20 2020 23:50 GMT
#1326
On March 21 2020 08:35 Mohdoo wrote:
Oregon (Kate Brown)sending out warning signals we're about to be shelter-in-home. Not sure what that means I should get while I can. Hmmm.

Probably good to have the essentials to avoid having to make too many trips to the grocery store. Basic household supplies (soap, laundry/kitchen detergent, paper towels), medicine (cough syrup, thermometer, painkillers), nonperishable food (canned, long shelf life, and frozen), cooking supplies (milk, eggs, flour, spices, etc), and some stock of sold-out stuff for personal use (TP, hand sanitizer, isopropyl alcohol). Also very important to ensure you have a drinkable water supply; not sure if Oregon tap water is good for drinking but if not, you can always boil it.

Not that any of this stuff is particularly inaccessible during a shelter-in-place order, but it's definitely prudent to have a moderately stocked house at a time when you're largely under lockdown. If nothing else, because what are you going to do if you're out of supplies AND stuck in quarantine because you got sick?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1656 Posts
March 20 2020 23:51 GMT
#1327
On March 21 2020 08:35 Mohdoo wrote:
Oregon (Kate Brown)sending out warning signals we're about to be shelter-in-home. Not sure what that means I should get while I can. Hmmm.


That means you stay home and only go out for necessities.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18114 Posts
March 21 2020 00:05 GMT
#1328
On March 21 2020 08:00 LegalLord wrote:
Not really particularly striking news, but for folks who have played the flash game Pandemic / Pandemic 2 in the past, an interesting fact of the day is that Madagascar has reported its first cases of the infection.

Show nested quote +
ANTANANARIVO (Reuters) - The island nation of Madagascar confirmed its first cases of coronavirus on Friday, the president said in a televised statement.

The three cases of coronavirus were confirmed by the Institut Pasteur de Madagascar, President Andry Rajoelina said.

Madagascar, one of the world's poorest nations, halted all all international flights this week to try to prevent cases of the virus.

Source

Ok. That's it. The world is officially doomed. This is the moment to spend all mutations into nasty lethal shit like hemorrhagic fever. Our hope is reeeeaaallly on developing a cute, because with pneumonia this noob went lethal too early.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
March 21 2020 01:00 GMT
#1329
On March 21 2020 08:51 iFU.pauline wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2020 08:35 Mohdoo wrote:
Oregon (Kate Brown)sending out warning signals we're about to be shelter-in-home. Not sure what that means I should get while I can. Hmmm.


That means you stay home and only go out for necessities.

Yeah, not going to actually leave unless necessary. Was just trying to think of what I may consider necessary that will be cut off.
Emnjay808
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States10660 Posts
March 21 2020 01:20 GMT
#1330
Things are still going to get worse. Way worse.

I think there are 36 confirmed cases in Hawaii. This is not counting pending cases. And god knows how many untested are walking around Walmart asymptomatic.

We are kinda, literally just pretty fucked. Fucking idiots still taking in visiting flights. Government doesn’t wanna shut down airlines. There are people taking advantage of a mainland round trip for 20% of the usual cost. It’s disgusting.

I’m basically just using this thread to rant. It’s hard to keep it in. I’m usually a very optimistic person because I put my trust in the people of power to do the right thing. This is not the case.
Skol
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 21 2020 01:56 GMT
#1331
Day 7 for being unable to find milk, eggs, meat (of any kind), fish, or cheese in any of my nearby grocery stores. And of course toilet paper. They did have menudo (tripe) yesterday, so I guess that could count. It’s still strange to see entire aisles almost entirely bare and to tell friends and family to pick me up some X if they see a store have it.

I’m in the “critical infrastructure” category of the chemical industry (as I’ve found quite a few TLers also are over the years). Stores aren’t open when work starts, and shelves are bare when I get off. So wild.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Emnjay808
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States10660 Posts
March 21 2020 02:30 GMT
#1332
Consumables are only going out because of hoarders.

People, just buy what you need. Youre hurting your immediate community by hoarding. People dont suddenly just eat more and wipe their butts more because of a pandemic. Literally the source of outages is because of hoarding. It just amplifies the situation when people try to "prepare": senior citizens just get fucked, moms with newborns have no access to baby wipes/diapers. If there ever is a scare that there will be an outage past the retail level--we will cross that bridge when we get to it. In the mean time hoarders are just making it a lot worse than it has to be. Though I guess thats the nature of people: theyre fucking stupid.
Skol
aseq
Profile Joined January 2003
Netherlands3987 Posts
March 21 2020 02:46 GMT
#1333
On March 21 2020 08:21 SC-Shield wrote:
I think Italy had 41k cases yesterday and today it has 47k. Huge jump. Also, Germany overtook Iran which no one seems to talk about. Spain looks like it's going to be the next Italy.

Amount of known infections doesn't mean that much at this point. Germany has fewer deaths than NL, but far more infections, which probably just means they've been testing a lot more. I think amount of deaths (and % of ICU's occupied) are the most valuable statistics.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7917 Posts
March 21 2020 08:28 GMT
#1334
On March 21 2020 10:56 Danglars wrote:
Day 7 for being unable to find milk, eggs, meat (of any kind), fish, or cheese in any of my nearby grocery stores. And of course toilet paper. They did have menudo (tripe) yesterday, so I guess that could count. It’s still strange to see entire aisles almost entirely bare and to tell friends and family to pick me up some X if they see a store have it.

I’m in the “critical infrastructure” category of the chemical industry (as I’ve found quite a few TLers also are over the years). Stores aren’t open when work starts, and shelves are bare when I get off. So wild.

That's really ridiculous since there is no shortage atm. There has been some hoarding here but people have quickly realized that the shelves were full the next day and that it didn't make sense.

The hoarding panic is the ultimate self realizing prophecy, with people creating the problem they are trying to protect themselves from.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2649 Posts
March 21 2020 08:41 GMT
#1335
On March 21 2020 08:21 SC-Shield wrote:
I think Italy had 41k cases yesterday and today it has 47k. Huge jump. Also, Germany overtook Iran which no one seems to talk about. Spain looks like it's going to be the next Italy.


Just to add to ggrrg great post above yours.

New cases is partially because of spread but also massively affected by how available tests are. For example South Korea have had good amounts of tests while Sweden is testing almost no one.

Right now production of test kits is ramping up at an extreme pace worldwide. One factory in the US was going to produce 5 mn tests a week, another one in Germany 1,9 mn tests a week and there are most likely many, many smaller producers that together can produce many more tests.

So expect testing to accelerate and expect the numbers of patients being positive to increase dramatically but remember that these people were sick before they got tested!
So if the numbers go up as testing goes up there is no need to panic.

Similarly supply shortages for disinfection, gloves and other protection is ramping like crazy. These are not hard items to increase production of. I've seen my gf's company (totally unrelated products and not in an emergency) ramp production several hundred % in just a few months when there was unlimited demand.

So while it might get worse in the near future in many places many things will start getting solved in the coming weeks when it comes to supply. Also consider that available personal in healthcare will be massively increased if you can test everyone with mild symptoms and only send home the one with covid-19.
waaaaaaaaaaaooooow - Felicia, SPF2:T
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-21 09:03:50
March 21 2020 09:01 GMT
#1336
The overall ratio of closed cases goes something like this worldwide:
Recovered:dead
World: 9:1

Korea: 26:1
China: 24:1
Germany: 3:1
Spain:3:2
Italy: 5:4
US: 1:2

US numbers are still low, but that ratio alone tells you how under-tested the US was, no wonder their numbers are blowing up now.
Obviously the ratios in the west should get better with time, but it still looks horrific
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
DucK-
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Singapore11447 Posts
March 21 2020 09:15 GMT
#1337
https://co.vid19.sg/

Just wanna share some stats website we have about the virus here in sg. Sure it helps that we're small and so tracing is relatively easier compared to the west. Policies are easier to enforce and citizens do listen to advisory. However I dare say that no other country even with similar geographical attributes will be able to handle the virus as well as us.

Thats because right from the onset, we have taken this virus fucking seriously. Heck even before this virus existed, we were already fucking prepared for this.
r00ty
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1057 Posts
March 21 2020 09:40 GMT
#1338
On March 21 2020 08:17 ggrrg wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 20 2020 19:06 r00ty wrote:
Never panic, but after talking to friends and family a lot yesterday, I'm worried: The supply chain is a lot weaker than we are expecting and being told. Essential wokers are not protected. People didn't understand and Italy will be everywhere. Triage will be everywhere. Worst economy crash in history.

The EU might not survive this, we're not able to help each other.

Edit: I mean politically. Not everyone is gonna die.


1. It is true that there are tremendous problems in the supply chain for many industries. E.g. the main reason named by German car manufacturers for stopping production is the inability to receive all necessary components to continue production (personally, I’d say that an expected dive in demand for new cars is another major reason as well). It is expected that a large part of the higher tech industry in Europe is having the same issues right now. However, I very much doubt that this applies to essential items for one’s daily needs. Chicken farms are not sourcing parts from 30 different countries on 5 different continents, neither are bakeries, cow barns, or toilet paper manufacturers for that matter. The ability to feed the population and provide supplies for daily needs is probably guaranteed within every single EU country, and Germany is among the very last EU countries to fear any shortages of basic supplies, since all necessary items are produced locally with locally sourced precursor products. I cannot guarantee you that you will be able to receive Australian kangaroo meat or Ecuadorian shrimps in the next months, but it would pretty much require an apocalypse and then a couple of years until you cannot get German bread, milk, potatoes, chicken wings, beer, toilet paper, etc. The EU as an institution and multiple member countries have been heavily criticized for their heavy subsidies to the agricultural sector for at least a decade, and for all the issues these subsidies have caused in developing nations, they also mean that the EU is the last place on earth to worry about food supplies in any crisis: The EU as a whole has been the largest food exporter in the world since 2013.
The empty shelves you are seeing in the supermarkets are due to the fact that the local stock in the supermarket has been calculated for a certain level of demand. This calculation has not taken into account morons that buy a year’s worth of toilet paper and pasta. Thus the contracts with producers and the scheduled deliveries are currently out of sync with the momentary spike in demand. The production itself is unaffected; the stocked supplies are there, but simply have not been moved yet. Essential items will remain in stock and supplies currently sold out will be back in normal qualities (at least in Europe) within 2-4 weeks after restocking schedules have been adjusted to the new situation.

2. I do not know what you mean by “essential workers”. If you happen to have people like grocery store cashiers in mind, then yeah, they are not protected. But they are also rarely 70+ with multiple comorbidities. It may sound a bit cynical, but objectively on average they should be about as much at risk from Covid-19 complications the general population. Taking into account that Merkel and the RKI announced that 60-70% of the German population could eventually get infected with the virus + Show Spoiler +
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/video206489421/Merkel-zu-Corona-60-bis-70-Prozent-der-Bevoelkerung-koennten-infiziert-werden.html
, it just means that these workers will be among the first ones to get infected, but not that they will be dying more often than others.
If you happen to have medical professionals in mind… then yeah… they are indeed in danger of lacking sufficient protection very soon, which would cause a whole lot of issues down the line. One of the main reasons for the movement restrictions in Germany is to buy more time for medical preparations, which includes the sourcing of sufficient protection for doctors and nurses. It is anyone’s guess how this will unfold. Personally (and my opinion on this topic is nothing but a wild guess), I feel like the German government is currently taking pragmatic and decisive measures that will eventually largely (hopefully completely) alleviate protection issues for medical personnel, but I would not bet my life on it…

3. People did not understand “it” and unfortunately way too many people still do not understand “it”. Fortunately, regular people do not need to understand everything. The important thing is that governments and people in relevant positions have a sufficient understanding to implement the correct measures. If that’s the case or not is beyond my judgment, but it seems nearly impossible that everywhere will end up like Italy. For one, I feel like Bulgaria is taking the right steps in a timely manner and fully expect the country’s results to look much better than Italy’s despite having a much poorer state of health care and significantly less resources. Germany also seems to be (finally) heading in the right direction and I doubt it will be as bad as in Italy here, but the early delay may still end up costing many lives. I cannot comment at all on how other countries will fare. Odds are that there will be other places that are heading towards the same disaster as Italy… Either way, the last few sentences are solely my uneducated opinion, which nobody should put too much stock in.

4. Once again everywhere is too strong of a statement. Italy was absolutely not prepared and had the bad luck of being hit much earlier than anywhere else in the West. Additionally, there is vast number of socio-economic and cultural factors who in the end may turn out to have been hugely contributing to the overall development (or not, who knows). Either way, it is extremely unlikely that the entire world gets hit the same way as Italy was. Living in Germany, I feel like the country still has a chance to “skate by” at least in comparison to Italy. For obvious reasons, I cannot say how much of my guestimate is based on the political measures taken, the health care system in place, the available resources and experience, and how much on wishful thinking and my personal biases.

5. At this point, it is obvious that there will be a significant recession. It also appears to be anyone’s guess just how bad it is going to be. I have read estimates and predictions from renowned institutions and random “experts” ranging from -0.6% GDP growth for Italy this year (which I feel is utopian) to over 20% unemployment across Europe within a couple of months. I certainly cannot say what is going to happen, but it appears that so far nobody can. As of yet, there seems to be no solid indication if it will be any worse for the general population than previous crashes in the past 50 years.

On March 20 2020 19:45 Furikawari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2020 19:09 SC-Shield wrote:


Active cases
147,139
Recovered cases
88,450
Fatal cases
10,052


For some people it's probably not good enough, but I'm happy to see so many recovered cases. Hopefully we can increase ratio in favour of that.

Hmmm yeah, so think about this, what those numbers show is that more than 10% of ended cases end with death. I saw those numbers few days ago and didnt spend time to understand where the difference with the 2 to 5% that is usually sold by the media comes from, if anyone here has an answer...


On March 20 2020 19:56 Furikawari wrote:
Ok that makes sense, thank you. But still, that means the death ratio must be underestimated, but not as much as I thought.


First of all, the death ratio is not underestimated. As a matter of fact, any calculation based on recorded cases of recovered vs died is with 100% certainty guaranteed to be an overestimation for any country with communal spread (which is effectively every country with more than 10 recorded cases and without a shred of doubt every country with more than 1000 cases). As deacon.frost already said, there is a lag due to the fact that on average dying occurs much faster than being announced as recovered. The much more significant reason, however, is the fact that it is absolutely impossible to register every single infection. People without symptoms will never be checked for the virus. They will get infected and beat the virus without anyone ever knowing that they were infected to begin with and thus they will never show up in the statistic. People with mild symptoms are also unlikely to ever reach out for any testing. According to the official estimates, 80% of the infected will have either no symptoms or only mild symptoms. These people will for the most part never appear in any of the recorded cases since they will never be tested. It is not a secret that most countries have neither a sufficient amount of test kits nor the personnel and capacity to process enough tests to check everybody. Some countries like Italy and Japan + Show Spoiler +
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Coronavirus-Why-Japan-tested-so-few-people
are openly saying that they test very far from everybody who could have been infected (albeit for different reasons), the US for example admitted to not having enough test kits for widespread testing, in Germany a virologist who came to fame during the crisis said in an interview today that they are not able to trace everyone infected and they do not care to trace everyone infected (quote: “if a healthy student is sitting in home quarantine and watching Netflix, I, as a doctor, do not need to know that she would test positive… But when my 70 yo patient gets sick and is isolated at home, I would like to test him and then call every other day to see how his breathing is), instead people should abide to the hygiene and self-isolation rules + Show Spoiler +
very interesting interview, but in German: https://www.zeit.de/wissen/gesundheit/2020-03/christian-drosten-coronavirus-pandemie-deutschland-virologe-charite
. Then you have cases like Testie in this very thread when a person is rightfully worried of possibly being infected but not being able to get tested. An isolated instance cannot be used as proof of anything, but similar stories are being heard all around where I live in Germany, which makes me believe that it is not particularly rare.
On the other hand, one can assume that the overwhelming majority of people who die of the new virus get recorded in the statistic.
Nobody can say how many of the asymptomatic and mild cases get recorded, but there is not a shred of doubt that many such cases do not get recorded, which makes the death ratio calculated based on the recorded numbers an overestimation. Given the lack of testing capacity in most places around the world, it appears fairly safe to say that a large portion of the infected people are not part of the official records, which means that the death ratio you calculate is a significant overestimation. If we go by the official estimate of 80% mild cases, if none of those get recorded, you need to divide the numbers you calculate by 5, resulting in 2% mortality instead of the 10% you get from the previous calculation. It is of course not that simple, since there are mild cases that are indeed being recorded. However, due to the exponential growth of infections in the West currently, your basic calculation is significantly skewed by a lag in testing and a lag till people are officially declared recovered.

There is one more component that significantly distorts any calculations on death rate based on recorded cases. The official estimates say that 5% of the infected will be in critical condition. The estimates, I have seen, on the mortality from the virus vary between 0.5% and 2%. Let’s say you have 100.000 infected people at a given moment. Out of those you would expect 5.000 to be in critical condition. Let’s say that with the right treatment, you will still end up with 1.000 people dying (1% overall mortality). However, without the right treatment, you can expect that all 5.000 will die. This is an issue that is currently affecting Italy (and was previously affecting Wuhan till the lockdown took effect). There is no capacity to treat everybody, so the death rate is much higher than it would else be. For this reason, varying degrees of lockdowns are being implemented all around the world. The goal is to prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed. It also has an effect on any mortality calculation based solely on the recorded cases. As mentioned in the beginning, deaths occur on average significantly faster than labeling people as recovered. If using the fictional numbers I mentioned above of 5.000 people dying instead of only 1.000, it means that the time difference between people being declared as dead to people being declared as recovered is now 5 times more impactful on the mortality calculation based on recorded cases. If we add the fictional assumption that all 80% of mild cases do not get recorded, which also impacts the calculation by a factor of 5, your mortality calculation is suddenly off by a factor of 5x5=25, which would mean that your calculated 10% mortality is in reality only 0.4%. I want to make clear that I neither claim nor believe that the mortality of the virus is only 0.4%. I have every reason to trust the official estimates of 0.5%-2%. + Show Spoiler +
or this recent estimate: https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/16/lower-coronavirus-death-rate-estimates/
I just wanted to show examples why one cannot calculate the mortality with any degree of certainty simply based on the recorded cases of deaths vs recovered (or infected for that matter).



Thanks for your thoughts and research, is it much appreciated. I have a problem approaching the numbers and drawing conclusions, because Europe, Canada and US are so severely undertestet.

It gets better and People start changing. Considerably less traffic and people outside, compared to a normal saturday. Half of the people i saw wore rubber gloves, walking into the store. Most people keep their distance. I had to get water and beer and can now stay at home for 2-3 weeks.

It seems like every state and every city has their own rules and they change everyday, which seems unnecessary as they mostly vary just slightly. We're down to gatherings of 5 people allowed as well.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-21 11:07:09
March 21 2020 10:17 GMT
#1339
Australia feels about three weeks behind the rest of the world at this stage.

Our conservative government likes nothing better than keeping foreigners out, and were very happy to close the borders aggressively. However, our conservative government also likes nothing less than disappointing its donors, and so has frittered away the time this gained by refusing to close schools or implement meaningful lockdowns.

It's very strange. We can look at Italy, the US and the rest of Europe and very clearly see the future. Everyone knows it, nobody disagrees on what is coming. But still everyone is waiting for the cases to get higher before they do more than get in punch-ups over toilet paper, while our last shot at containment slips through our fingers. It's the weirdest mix of fear and denial I have ever seen.

My own employer is a perfect example. They have spent the last couple of weeks pushing out various IT and process changes to enable work from home ad hoc across the organisation, which I thought was prudent and well done. However, this must have caused a bunch of people to dare to actually work from home, because management have since added passive-aggressive sections to their updates reminding us we are required to keep coming in, seemingly until the government mandates otherwise.
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-21 11:14:39
March 21 2020 11:01 GMT
#1340
On March 21 2020 08:21 SC-Shield wrote:
I think Italy had 41k cases yesterday and today it has 47k. Huge jump. Also, Germany overtook Iran which no one seems to talk about. Spain looks like it's going to be the next Italy.

The thing about Iran's numbers is, that according to an article I've read on time.com (source) testing has been restricted to severe cases in Iran and the actual number of infected could be 5 times higher, yikes.
And that was 4 days ago, so the real number of infected over there might be higher than China's right now.
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
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