EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 546
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5768 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On December 19 2021 02:25 arbiter_md wrote: I think it's very bad that politicians talk in this pandemic. Way more than scientists. I also don't like when I see a CEO of vaccine producer talking about the need to vaccinate with a third dose. Some of Pfizer's latest investor calls have made a big deal about how they could make $50 billion in "Covid franchise sales" by 2022. I'm sure they're in no hurry to see that free money train get derailed. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45410 Posts
On December 19 2021 02:25 arbiter_md wrote: I think it's very bad that politicians talk in this pandemic. Way more than scientists. I also don't like when I see a CEO of vaccine producer talking about the need to vaccinate with a third dose. Three weeks ago we didn't even know the omicron mutation existed. Now the politicians know that we need a third dose to protect us? Really wish some scientific data on this. Though this variant is so recent, I doubt there are any data. We don't even know if it causes more severe disease than delta yet. Scientists and medical researchers had been talking about the possibility for boosters since the beginning, because that's always part of the overall vaccination conversation. And people had been receiving boosters before the omicron mutation even existed, so it's simply not true that the tune was significantly changed due to fearmongering over omicron, let alone for underhanded political/financial (rather than scientific/medical) motivations. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22180 Posts
On December 19 2021 02:25 arbiter_md wrote: Scientists can kinda talk to other scientists. They are incredibly bad at talking to 'the ordinary citizen'.I think it's very bad that politicians talk in this pandemic. Way more than scientists. I also don't like when I see a CEO of vaccine producer talking about the need to vaccinate with a third dose. Three weeks ago we didn't even know the omicron mutation existed. Now the politicians know that we need a third dose to protect us? Really wish some scientific data on this. Though this variant is so recent, I doubt there are any data. We don't even know if it causes more severe disease than delta yet. Its a virus, it mutates, everything is constantly changing a million and 1 different factors into everything and we have no clue about how most of it. The only thing a scientist is going to be able to tell you is "we don't know", "I guess...", "maybe" and "perhaps". Do they 'know' we need a 3e booster? No they don't. But we're reasonably sure Omicron is even more infectious then Delta so can we afford not do anything? Do you want them to do nothing and wait for it to be to late or get going on giving everyone a booster that may hopefully not be entirely needed but certainly can't hurt to get. We wanted people to get boosters for Delta anyway. If you ask back to the start of the epidemic 2 years ago (fuck me thats depressing to type out) I imagine a lot of people are going to say governments should have done more, sooner. So you can hopefully understand why they aren't waiting around to see how this turns out now. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45410 Posts
On December 19 2021 03:09 Gorsameth wrote: Scientists can kinda talk to other scientists. They are incredibly bad at talking to 'the ordinary citizen'. Its a virus, it mutates, everything is constantly changing a million and 1 different factors into everything and we have no clue about how most of it. The only thing a scientist is going to be able to tell you is "we don't know", "I guess...", "maybe" and "perhaps". Do they 'know' we need a 3e booster? No they don't. But we're reasonably sure Omicron is even more infectious then Delta so can we afford not do anything? Do you want them to do nothing and wait for it to be to late or get going on giving everyone a booster that may hopefully not be entirely needed but certainly can't hurt to get. We wanted people to get boosters for Delta anyway. If you ask back to the start of the epidemic 2 years ago (fuck me thats depressing to type out) I imagine a lot of people are going to say governments should have done more, sooner. So you can hopefully understand why they aren't waiting around to see how this turns out now. Plus, there really isn't a downside to getting a booster, and there's plenty of upside. Over the next few months, they can gather and parse the data between those who were boosted and those who weren't, in real time. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
On December 19 2021 03:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Plus, there really isn't a downside to getting a booster, and there's plenty of upside. Over the next few months, they can gather and parse the data between those who were boosted and those who weren't, in real time. But your arm might be sore for 1 to 3 days?!?!?!? That's totsly a reasonable reason why you can't save your life. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
On December 19 2021 03:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Plus, there really isn't a downside to getting a booster, and there's plenty of upside. Over the next few months, they can gather and parse the data between those who were boosted and those who weren't, in real time. I recall some expression like "there's no medication without side effects". Maybe that's why we had studies to check if the benefits outweigh risks for young people. Of course it's dangerous to mention the side effects when we have huge number of antivaccers around. But if you rush with these decisions without scientific data, it disrupts even more the trust in policy makers. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45410 Posts
On December 19 2021 05:18 arbiter_md wrote: I recall some expression like "there's no medication without side effects". Maybe that's why we had studies to check if the benefits outweigh risks for young people. Of course it's dangerous to mention the side effects when we have huge number of antivaccers around. But if you rush with these decisions without scientific data, it disrupts even more the trust in policy makers. Sure, and that's why there were months of clinical trials that were studied by the experts, to address those safety and side effect concerns, right?  | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On December 19 2021 05:18 arbiter_md wrote: I recall some expression like "there's no medication without side effects". Maybe that's why we had studies to check if the benefits outweigh risks for young people. Of course it's dangerous to mention the side effects when we have huge number of antivaccers around. But if you rush with these decisions without scientific data, it disrupts even more the trust in policy makers. I'd be more wary of the side effects of an incredibly mutating virus if i had a wild imagination | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26489 Posts
Have you costed the whole endeavour? Nah I’m being hyperbolic but Jesus, if they had a fucking sensible point sometimes. Was meant to catch my Starcraft buddies I’ve cultivated for a decade of running local tournaments at our local Christmas market, brought my little one along and some of them haven’t seen him in 3/4 years and I’m just stuck in the middle of some protest and get about 10 minutes of hellos before they moved to their next stop | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4404 Posts
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59713503 The Netherlands has announced a strict lockdown over Christmas amid concerns over the Omicron coronavirus variant. Non-essential shops, bars, gyms hairdressers and other public venues will be closed until at least mid-January. Two guests per household will be allowed - four over the holidays. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
Even in public places, vaccination passport let my city (vancouver, around 85% of overall pop with 2x dose, mostly mrna) go about normally in the face of delta but we're still seeing a drastic rise with omicron. We can't stop it with severe lockdowns that most people don't care enough for at this point. Just gotta pile on the boosters and hope it's a mild disease with vaccination. Edit: goes without saying that idgaf about those who haven't gotten fully vaccinated by now if they're eligible. They made their bed, lie in it. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Either the government say that Omicron is nothing to sneeze about, or that there's a lot that scientists still don't know which justifies precautionary measures. Pushing hard for boosters and mask mandates isn't going to help to avoid another case overload, if the situation is really dire or uncertain. Problem is, a lot of politicians and decision-makers have made holiday plans. Either they're away, shut down their brains till the end of year, or have vested personal interest (booked some ski trip at the Alps). | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18248 Posts
On December 19 2021 10:34 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Netherlands back in lockdown over Christmas, until at least mid January.Maximum four guests over holidays.Is there an accepted rate of vaccination where lockdowns will not occur? I realise a more vaccine resistant strain like Omicron resets the counter so to speak.Oh well, hopefully next year will be better. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59713503 The Spanish PM just gave a presser yesterday in which he reiterated that there would not be a lockdown, and that masks, social distancing and vaccinations are enough to control the spiking cases. Spain has one of the highest vaccination rates in Europe, so maybe? On the other hand, cases are spiking (delta, we don't have a lot of omicron yet). Christmas is a pretty big deal here, though, so cancelling family meetings is political suicide. They didn't even do that fully last year when the situation was a lot grimmer (but with fewer cases). | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
After suffering a lot in the initial wave, Spain has coped rather well with the variants. Given their rather intimate social habits and travel industry, one would expect Spain to encounter more problems than the average European country. Maybe there's some good practices that we can all take from Spain. It's probably a combination of multiple factors: high vaccination rate, effective governance, etc. Would be nice to get more insights! | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4744 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45410 Posts
On December 19 2021 21:14 Silvanel wrote: I dont really understand why people have problem with booster shots. It is nothing new in vaccine world. Hepatitis b vaccine has three stages with second shot being one month after the first and the third being six months after. But You already have protection after second shot. Third one is essentially a booster shot making Your protection last much longer. I think the issue is that the people who don't understand vaccines, viruses, and public health are of the impression that scientists and doctors and pro-science/pro-medicine politicians keep moving the goalposts further and further to push some sort of secret agenda. I keep seeing various iterations of such accusations, often in the form of "First it was social distancing, and next it was masks, and then it was vaccines, and now it's boosters, and who knows what it'll be next; how many hoops will we need to jump through until we can all move on, and how much control are you going to assert over my life!?" They seem to mistake necessary safety protocols for some sort of ulterior, devious motive. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18248 Posts
On December 19 2021 21:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I think the issue is that the people who don't understand vaccines, viruses, and public health are of the impression that scientists and doctors and pro-science/pro-medicine politicians keep moving the goalposts further and further to push some sort of secret agenda. I keep seeing various iterations of such accusations, often in the form of "First it was social distancing, and next it was masks, and then it was vaccines, and now it's boosters, and who knows what it'll be next; how many hoops will we need to jump through until we can all move on, and how much control are you going to assert over my life!?" They seem to mistake necessary safety protocols for some sort of ulterior, devious motive. Well, one main cause is that we haven't had a global health crisis like this in about 3 generations. Living with disease used to be a lot more common, and social distancing + quarantining was effectively the only way we had to deal with any outbreak for millennia. But 20th century medicine changed all that l. Between vaccines (technically 19th century) and antibiotics, generations grew up believing that severe problems with infectious disease was a curiosity of the past. Despite ever increasing population density, and the fact that our advances in treating viral diseases was far inferior to those for bacterial ones (see also HIV, and various Ebola outbreaks). So people are just singularly unequipped to this "throwback" to a problem that was supposed to be solved. They struggle with the idea that the disease changes in ways nobody anticipates, and that we have to use "Draconian" measures to try to stem its spread. Then vaccines were hyped as the "end" to the pandemic, but that isn't true either. Most governments overplayed what they knew and caused a lot of trust in government to be lost when they continuously had to scramble to put other measures into place after promising the previous restrictions would be the last ones (which generally followed a long chain of broken promises of "no harsher" or "last set" of restrictions on liberty). It doesn't take much to push people who are scared by the disease, frustrated by the toll it is taking on their lives and disillusioned by an "incompetent" government into believing it is all a vast plot of global proportions... despite the obvious gaping plotholes these same people would point out if this were the plot of a James Bond movie. | ||
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