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On December 19 2021 21:07 RKC wrote:
Spain is really a curious outlier (in a good way).
After suffering a lot in the initial wave, Spain has coped rather well with the variants. Given their rather intimate social habits and travel industry, one would expect Spain to encounter more problems than the average European country.
Maybe there's some good practices that we can all take from Spain. It's probably a combination of multiple factors: high vaccination rate, effective governance, etc. Would be nice to get more insights!
I can't tell you why, but by god do they observe mask wearing. I was in the North of Spain in late summer. Incidence was really low, and I saw people wearing masks at the beach. In the city centers, everyone was masked up - on the streets.
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There's a big outbreak at Cornell university causing them to cancel graduation/social gatherings and return to online learning. Cornell also has a vaccine mandate and nearly the entire student body and faculty has been fully vaccinated. The fact that an outbreak is still occurring in a population that is full vaccinated can only mean one thing: Not all of them have received their boosters yet. We need to find these selfish pricks that haven't been boosted yet and ship them off to Mohdoo Island™ so that the rest of us can return to our normal lives.
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On December 20 2021 09:19 BlackJack wrote:
There's a big outbreak at Cornell university causing them to cancel graduation/social gatherings and return to online learning. Cornell also has a vaccine mandate and nearly the entire student body and faculty has been fully vaccinated. The fact that an outbreak is still occurring in a population that is full vaccinated can only mean one thing: Not all of them have received their boosters yet. We need to find these selfish pricks that haven't been boosted yet and ship them off to Mohdoo Island™ so that the rest of us can return to our normal lives.
At this point is the suggestion just mask up and proceed as normal and let it run its course? Booster if you want?
Its easy to take pot shots but whats the best way forward?
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On December 20 2021 09:26 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 09:19 BlackJack wrote:
There's a big outbreak at Cornell university causing them to cancel graduation/social gatherings and return to online learning. Cornell also has a vaccine mandate and nearly the entire student body and faculty has been fully vaccinated. The fact that an outbreak is still occurring in a population that is full vaccinated can only mean one thing: Not all of them have received their boosters yet. We need to find these selfish pricks that haven't been boosted yet and ship them off to Mohdoo Island™ so that the rest of us can return to our normal lives. At this point is the suggestion just mask up and proceed as normal and let it run its course? Booster if you want? Its easy to take pot shots but whats the best way forward?
Find a reasonable point of stability and accept some level of infection, hospitalization, and death that is more than desired but less than “pandemic level” in a compromise that lets you go back to normal.
If you take a Madagascar approach to any new variant or breakthrough infection, you’ll guarantee being stuck in a permanent lockdown loop.
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The best way forward for society as a whole i would not dare to say. Maybe public expectations should be lowerd.The public has never fully realized the scope of this pandemic and messages from authoritys have been to optimistic in general (for which there are definitely some arguments so i can understand that).
We dont have all that many options other then continue with the current strategy and hope that at one point things will get better. If this is actually realistic and how long this would take i would not dare to say either but it could be that we are somewhat close.
The unvaxed are definitely not helping but blaming them is pointless i think. It only increases polarization which isnt particulary helpfull in a situation like this. The problem is also bigger then a certain percentage of the population beeing unvaxed. Many people thought they where good with 2 vaccinations and now everyone does need a booster which cant be done in time because of logistical issues. The unvaxed will still get their protection from infection eventually.
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On December 20 2021 09:43 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 09:26 Sadist wrote:On December 20 2021 09:19 BlackJack wrote:
There's a big outbreak at Cornell university causing them to cancel graduation/social gatherings and return to online learning. Cornell also has a vaccine mandate and nearly the entire student body and faculty has been fully vaccinated. The fact that an outbreak is still occurring in a population that is full vaccinated can only mean one thing: Not all of them have received their boosters yet. We need to find these selfish pricks that haven't been boosted yet and ship them off to Mohdoo Island™ so that the rest of us can return to our normal lives. At this point is the suggestion just mask up and proceed as normal and let it run its course? Booster if you want? Its easy to take pot shots but whats the best way forward? Find a reasonable point of stability and accept some level of infection, hospitalization, and death that is more than desired but less than “pandemic level” in a compromise that lets you go back to normal. If you take a Madagascar approach to any new variant or breakthrough infection, you’ll guarantee being stuck in a permanent lockdown loop.
The US hasnt had lockdowns since the beginning of the pandemic.
Masks and restrictions are not lockdowns
I would think we are following your suggestion for the past year or so.
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On December 20 2021 10:22 Sadist wrote:
Masks and restrictions are not lockdowns
Well, if you find your comfort zone in the semantic quibble between "lockdown" and "other measures that don't quite warrant the use of the word 'lockdown'" then fine by me. The original point still stands if you swap the word "lockdown" for whatever other word you'd prefer for undesirable pandemic-era measures meant to stop the spread.
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On December 20 2021 10:38 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 10:22 Sadist wrote:
Masks and restrictions are not lockdowns
Well, if you find your comfort zone in the semantic quibble between "lockdown" and "other measures that don't quite warrant the use of the word 'lockdown'" then fine by me. The original point still stands if you swap the word "lockdown" for whatever other word you'd prefer for undesirable pandemic-era measures meant to stop the spread.
But depending on the individual, you could be swapping out the word "lockdown" for social distancing, wearing a mask, or even getting vaccinated. None of those are synonymous with "lockdown", and any of those could absolutely be reasonable measures to take in a given scenario, regardless of them being "undesirable" to some people.
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On December 20 2021 10:38 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 10:22 Sadist wrote:
Masks and restrictions are not lockdowns
Well, if you find your comfort zone in the semantic quibble between "lockdown" and "other measures that don't quite warrant the use of the word 'lockdown'" then fine by me. The original point still stands if you swap the word "lockdown" for whatever other word you'd prefer for undesirable pandemic-era measures meant to stop the spread.
Lockdowns are pretty clearly stay at home orders for everyone but essential workers.
Mask Mandates are pretty clearly not lockdowns
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On December 20 2021 11:17 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 10:38 LegalLord wrote:On December 20 2021 10:22 Sadist wrote:
Masks and restrictions are not lockdowns
Well, if you find your comfort zone in the semantic quibble between "lockdown" and "other measures that don't quite warrant the use of the word 'lockdown'" then fine by me. The original point still stands if you swap the word "lockdown" for whatever other word you'd prefer for undesirable pandemic-era measures meant to stop the spread. Lockdowns are pretty clearly stay at home orders for everyone but essential workers. Mask Mandates are pretty clearly not lockdowns
A mask mandate is a lockdown for the droplets that come out of your mouth when you cough.
Checkmate, atheists.
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While not synonymous with lockdowns, certain restrictions can have a the same feeling. You are not locked down to your home, you just can't go to the gym, or eat inside at a restaurant, or go to your college campus, or.. These are different, but to people that are affected by them, they feel like they are in the same wheelhouse.
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On December 20 2021 13:27 dp wrote:
While not synonymous with lockdowns, certain restrictions can have a the same feeling. You are not locked down to your home, you just can't go to the gym, or eat inside at a restaurant, or go to your college campus, or.. These are different, but to people that are affected by them, they feel like they are in the same wheelhouse.
Again, those are not the same as getting vaccinated or wearing a mask.
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On December 20 2021 13:27 dp wrote:
While not synonymous with lockdowns, certain restrictions can have a the same feeling. You are not locked down to your home, you just can't go to the gym, or eat inside at a restaurant, or go to your college campus, or.. These are different, but to people that are affected by them, they feel like they are in the same wheelhouse.
Most places in the US have not had restrictions like this in 1.5 years.
Having to wear a mask is such a small inconvenience and yet people equate it to the 6 week lockdown we had at the start of the pandemic. Its ridiculous.
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Northern Ireland27185 Posts
On December 20 2021 09:54 pmh wrote:
The best way forward for society as a whole i would not dare to say. Maybe public expectations should be lowerd.The public has never fully realized the scope of this pandemic and messages from authoritys have been to optimistic in general (for which there are definitely some arguments so i can understand that).
We dont have all that many options other then continue with the current strategy and hope that at one point things will get better. If this is actually realistic and how long this would take i would not dare to say either but it could be that we are somewhat close.
The unvaxed are definitely not helping but blaming them is pointless i think. It only increases polarization which isnt particulary helpfull in a situation like this. The problem is also bigger then a certain percentage of the population beeing unvaxed. Many people thought they where good with 2 vaccinations and now everyone does need a booster which cant be done in time because of logistical issues. The unvaxed will still get their protection from infection eventually.
I think people forget that we live a rather rarefied existence, especially in the West. We haven’t fully conquered all that nature can throw at us. We aren’t guaranteed a certain standard of living, it’s what we carve out.
I don’t blame anti-vaxxers for things dragging on as it seems patently clear that vaccination alone may not cut it.
I do think many of their rationales and sometimes underlying motivations are stupid, while vaccination isn’t the golden goose solution, not vaccinating certainly doesn’t bloody help.
In addition many, albeit not all don’t exactly adhere to the additional behaviours that help on top of/instead of vaccination.
It’s been years since I’ve heard calls to seek to avoid polarisation in all sorts of domains. Sometimes seeking some common ground would absolutely be prudent, sometimes we’re getting into the fallacy of moderation territory.
This isn’t to say people aren’t guilty of pious or overly divisive rhetoric that isn’t especially helpful, that frequently also comes from a position of a total lack of understanding or knowledge themselves, or that genuine objections to other things get lumped in as ‘anti-vax’
Without adding a million additional caveats I’m not talking about folks in this thread, but in the environs outside.
They’re, absolutely full of shite in myriad mysterious and muddled ways. The only way to have a discussion that doesn’t become poisonous and polarised is not to have it at all.
Which isn’t reducing polarisation because ultimately you’re just letting a group of people do what they want, which antagonises the other ‘pole’ anyway.
It’s ‘don’t tell me what to do’ taken to such preposterous realms it can only come from a humongous anti-authority streak or plain selfishness, and given some of the crossover into some of their politics, they are only anti-authority when it’s not their bloke.
If the government mandated people not to jump in a fire some of these folks would be making giant pyres and triple jumping in holding hands.
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On December 21 2021 01:26 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2021 09:54 pmh wrote:
The best way forward for society as a whole i would not dare to say. Maybe public expectations should be lowerd.The public has never fully realized the scope of this pandemic and messages from authoritys have been to optimistic in general (for which there are definitely some arguments so i can understand that).
We dont have all that many options other then continue with the current strategy and hope that at one point things will get better. If this is actually realistic and how long this would take i would not dare to say either but it could be that we are somewhat close.
The unvaxed are definitely not helping but blaming them is pointless i think. It only increases polarization which isnt particulary helpfull in a situation like this. The problem is also bigger then a certain percentage of the population beeing unvaxed. Many people thought they where good with 2 vaccinations and now everyone does need a booster which cant be done in time because of logistical issues. The unvaxed will still get their protection from infection eventually. I think people forget that we live a rather rarefied existence, especially in the West. We haven’t fully conquered all that nature can throw at us. We aren’t guaranteed a certain standard of living, it’s what we carve out. I don’t blame anti-vaxxers for things dragging on as it seems patently clear that vaccination alone may not cut it. I do think many of their rationales and sometimes underlying motivations are stupid, while vaccination isn’t the golden goose solution, not vaccinating certainly doesn’t bloody help. In addition many, albeit not all don’t exactly adhere to the additional behaviours that help on top of/instead of vaccination. It’s been years since I’ve heard calls to seek to avoid polarisation in all sorts of domains. Sometimes seeking some common ground would absolutely be prudent, sometimes we’re getting into the fallacy of moderation territory. This isn’t to say people aren’t guilty of pious or overly divisive rhetoric that isn’t especially helpful, that frequently also comes from a position of a total lack of understanding or knowledge themselves, or that genuine objections to other things get lumped in as ‘anti-vax’ Without adding a million additional caveats I’m not talking about folks in this thread, but in the environs outside. They’re, absolutely full of shite in myriad mysterious and muddled ways. The only way to have a discussion that doesn’t become poisonous and polarised is not to have it at all. Which isn’t reducing polarisation because ultimately you’re just letting a group of people do what they want, which antagonises the other ‘pole’ anyway. It’s ‘don’t tell me what to do’ taken to such preposterous realms it can only come from a humongous anti-authority streak or plain selfishness, and given some of the crossover into some of their politics, they are only anti-authority when it’s not their bloke. If the government mandated people not to jump in a fire some of these folks would be making giant pyres and triple jumping in holding hands.
Yes i do agree. All this is very much true.
A prudent strategy to properly adrees this i dont really see unfortunatly. Trying to force the issue has proven to not be very effective. People only dig in more,heels in the sand. The effect of any sort of polarization spreads out like oil,also increasing polarization in other areas. This effect is particulary strong in the USA where every single issue has become polarized mostly along partizan lines.
Maybe ignoring and accepting the issue to some extend isnt the worst solution at this point. Simply repeating the message and advices from scientists in a friendly and open manner without directly attacking the unvaxxed on a personal level. As direct pressure only increases resistance. Eventually people will come around if you aproach them this way. At least thats what i hope and also think.
This has been the general aproach in most western nations so far so i do think we are doing the right thing when it comes to this. Its mostly the public itself which does become more hostile towards the other side, which i think is not helping.
The other option would be to force vaccinations and make them mandatory,this isnt the worst solution for dealing with the pandemic and some countries have resorted to this already. But doing so does go against some of the principles on which our society is build,it does come with collateral damage.
For some people this will work.They will take the vaccine and simply stop caring about having been forced to take it. With other people it will backfire and they will be even less willing to comply. In the end it might not be the worst solution as the group which will simply accept it is probably a lot bigger then the group which will resist even more. But it would be much better for the future if this could be avoided all together.
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On December 21 2021 02:10 pmh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2021 01:26 WombaT wrote:On December 20 2021 09:54 pmh wrote:
The best way forward for society as a whole i would not dare to say. Maybe public expectations should be lowerd.The public has never fully realized the scope of this pandemic and messages from authoritys have been to optimistic in general (for which there are definitely some arguments so i can understand that).
We dont have all that many options other then continue with the current strategy and hope that at one point things will get better. If this is actually realistic and how long this would take i would not dare to say either but it could be that we are somewhat close.
The unvaxed are definitely not helping but blaming them is pointless i think. It only increases polarization which isnt particulary helpfull in a situation like this. The problem is also bigger then a certain percentage of the population beeing unvaxed. Many people thought they where good with 2 vaccinations and now everyone does need a booster which cant be done in time because of logistical issues. The unvaxed will still get their protection from infection eventually. I think people forget that we live a rather rarefied existence, especially in the West. We haven’t fully conquered all that nature can throw at us. We aren’t guaranteed a certain standard of living, it’s what we carve out. I don’t blame anti-vaxxers for things dragging on as it seems patently clear that vaccination alone may not cut it. I do think many of their rationales and sometimes underlying motivations are stupid, while vaccination isn’t the golden goose solution, not vaccinating certainly doesn’t bloody help. In addition many, albeit not all don’t exactly adhere to the additional behaviours that help on top of/instead of vaccination. It’s been years since I’ve heard calls to seek to avoid polarisation in all sorts of domains. Sometimes seeking some common ground would absolutely be prudent, sometimes we’re getting into the fallacy of moderation territory. This isn’t to say people aren’t guilty of pious or overly divisive rhetoric that isn’t especially helpful, that frequently also comes from a position of a total lack of understanding or knowledge themselves, or that genuine objections to other things get lumped in as ‘anti-vax’ Without adding a million additional caveats I’m not talking about folks in this thread, but in the environs outside. They’re, absolutely full of shite in myriad mysterious and muddled ways. The only way to have a discussion that doesn’t become poisonous and polarised is not to have it at all. Which isn’t reducing polarisation because ultimately you’re just letting a group of people do what they want, which antagonises the other ‘pole’ anyway. It’s ‘don’t tell me what to do’ taken to such preposterous realms it can only come from a humongous anti-authority streak or plain selfishness, and given some of the crossover into some of their politics, they are only anti-authority when it’s not their bloke. If the government mandated people not to jump in a fire some of these folks would be making giant pyres and triple jumping in holding hands. Yes i do agree. All this is very much true. A prudent strategy to properly adrees this i dont really see unfortunatly. Trying to force the issue has proven to not be very effective. People only dig in more,heels in the sand. The effect of any sort of polarization spreads out like oil,also increasing polarization in other areas. This effect is particulary strong in the USA where every single issue has become polarized mostly along partizan lines. Maybe ignoring and accepting the issue to some extend isnt the worst solution at this point. Simply repeating the message and advices from scientists in a friendly and open manner without directly attacking the unvaxxed on a personal level. As direct pressure only increases resistance. Eventually people will come around if you aproach them this way. At least thats what i hope and also think. This has been the general aproach in most western nations so far so i do think we are doing the right thing when it comes to this. Its mostly the public itself which does become more hostile towards the other side, which i think is not helping. The other option would be to force vaccinations and make them mandatory,this isnt the worst solution for dealing with the pandemic and some countries have resorted to this already. But doing so does go against some of the principles on which our society is build,it does come with collateral damage. For some people this will work.They will take the vaccine and simply stop caring about having been forced to take it. With other people it will backfire and they will be even less willing to comply. In the end it might not be the worst solution as the group which will simply accept it is probably a lot bigger then the group which will resist even more. But it would be much better for the future if this could be avoided all together.
Verbally, that might be true, but applying direct pressure in other ways has been beneficial to getting more people vaccinated, such as requiring vaccinations to travel or stay employed. They might bitch and moan about it, but at the end of the day, they're vaccinated and finally contributing the tiniest little bit to society (however much they may hate it).
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I'm going to blame the antivaxxers for the hospital situation we're in.
2 in 3 (67.7%) people in the hospital taking up a bed right now in my province are unvaccinated. This is despite them making up less than 20% of the population. Normalized for age, they are overrepresented in the hospital by a factor of 20-25x.
We could have dropped our hospital utilization by 64% for covid cases if everyone eligible to be vaccinated, was vaccinated (never mind the benefits everywhere else in society). 100% vaccination isn't going to stop Omicron, but it seems to drop it from a bad time to actually flu-like symptoms if you're 2x vax'd and cold like symptoms if you're boosted.
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Northern Ireland27185 Posts
@Pmh the issue is everything is a personal attack to these people.
There is no way to engage, certainly not one I’ve ever seen because there’s a whole meta-narrative/conspiracy behind it.
They’re not put out of joint by the tone of the message, but the message itself, via the messengers delivering it. Granted I think the most vehemently opposed are also overly vocal, so that distorts the general perception of vaccine hesistant folks and their positions.
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EPT
