EPTThe awkward part is that I live and work between county boundaries, so it's actually not immediately clear which rules apply where right now. Some places have mandates, some don't, all based on which county they happen to be in.
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
The awkward part is that I live and work between county boundaries, so it's actually not immediately clear which rules apply where right now. Some places have mandates, some don't, all based on which county they happen to be in. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9768 Posts
On November 29 2021 08:02 maybenexttime wrote: Not everyone lives in the US, just so you know. ;-) If you look at what the tories did with hundreds of billions of taxpayers' money you would know that Blackjack's statement is even more true in the UK than it is in the US. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 29 2021 07:59 Sadist wrote: See I disagree with this both sidesism. At least with regards to the US. Trump politicized it from the beginning because he was worried about the stock market/reelection. I dont think you can say the democrats politicized this. This is only a political issue because the republicans made it one. You can just look at Biden and Kamala's tweets on Trump's travel bans or on whether the vaccine is rushed and whether people should trust it. I mean open travel and vaccine hesitancy during a pandemic should be bad across the board, not just bad depending on who is in charge. People acted like Trump could have stopped a highly contagious virus from spreading just by saying or doing a few things differently. They beat him up on it and it accomplished the mission of getting him out. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15732 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Looks like as the dust settled, the turnover as a result of the mandate clocks in around 3-4 percent of the workforce. Not fatal by any means, but it does kind of suck and adds on top of the already highly elevated turnover due to burnout. About in line with what the companies that bragged about how few employees they lost reported about their own vaccine implementation. Though vaccination rates were already over 80% here; I suspect some companies would have it worse. I suppose we might never know since thankfully the wider Biden mandate was put on hold despite the cries of those who insisted it was super-duper legal. | ||
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
On November 29 2021 08:40 BlackJack wrote: You can just look at Biden and Kamala's tweets on Trump's travel bans or on whether the vaccine is rushed and whether people should trust it. I mean open travel and vaccine hesitancy during a pandemic should be bad across the board, not just bad depending on who is in charge. People acted like Trump could have stopped a highly contagious virus from spreading just by saying or doing a few things differently. They beat him up on it and it accomplished the mission of getting him out. True, but it doesn't matter, because Orange man bad, and Left can do literally no wrong. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On November 29 2021 08:40 BlackJack wrote: You can just look at Biden and Kamala's tweets on Trump's travel bans or on whether the vaccine is rushed and whether people should trust it. I mean open travel and vaccine hesitancy during a pandemic should be bad across the board, not just bad depending on who is in charge. People acted like Trump could have stopped a highly contagious virus from spreading just by saying or doing a few things differently. They beat him up on it and it accomplished the mission of getting him out. Politics is about everyday life so it makes sense to talk about it, especially in an election year. Both sides used it, but one side consistently downplayed it and pushed false narratives. He pushed himself out, drop it already. Also you'd do well to remember that the US wasn't the only place nor the first place hit by covid , it's quite easy to look at what a leader can do when looking at other countries during the same time table. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45236 Posts
On November 29 2021 08:40 BlackJack wrote: You can just look at Biden and Kamala's tweets on Trump's travel bans or on whether the vaccine is rushed and whether people should trust it. I mean open travel and vaccine hesitancy during a pandemic should be bad across the board, not just bad depending on who is in charge. People acted like Trump could have stopped a highly contagious virus from spreading just by saying or doing a few things differently. They beat him up on it and it accomplished the mission of getting him out. We've repeatedly covered these misrepresentations of what was actually said and done. Harris pointing out that she wouldn't trust a cure that was only peddled by Trump and not by medical professionals is not the same as a vaccine-hesitant / anti-vaxxer position. She made it very clear that if the vaccines were supported by the experts, she would gladly get vaccinated - and she did - as opposed to how Trump supporters believed Trump's bullshit about alternative covid treatments - against the advice of the scientific consensus - which resulted in plenty of Trump supporters hurting themselves. Furthermore, we know that Trump's inaction on travel bans, as well as his anti-scientific rhetoric trivializing the disease and downplaying the importance of social distancing, masks, and vaccines, were directly related to the number of infections and deaths in the United States, many of which could have been prevented. In contrast, we have the Biden/Harris administration insta-banning travel based on this new African variant (omicron), and Democratic leadership has been pushing for listening to the advice of medical professionals and being proactively safe for the entire pandemic. On November 30 2021 00:29 rel wrote: True, but it doesn't matter, because Orange man bad, and Left can do literally no wrong. There is a huge difference between the strawman of "the left can do literally no wrong" and the reality that Biden, Harris, Clinton, Sanders, Obama, or literally a small child would have handled the pandemic better than Trump did, if they were president at the time. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 30 2021 00:29 rel wrote: True, but it doesn't matter, because Orange man bad, and Left can do literally no wrong. At least in here Trump wasn’t getting slammed for not being a miracle worker, but being beyond bloody terrible in so many aspects of what a decent Presidential response would look like. Even on travel bans, which I tend to agree with he was terrible. Banning travel because it’s judicious vs incorporating it only because it fits your anti-China posturing, they’re a bit different. None of this was guided by actual sensible policy, if Trump had deferred and just executed sensible policy I’d be still against his politics but give him credit here, he just demonstrably didn’t do that. My memory of the overall timeline is not particularly great but there were periods I’m pretty sure where various European countries had travel restrictions to the US and the U.K. didn’t, when the U.K. had considerably worse numbers and should have been the prime candidate for restrictions. Do the ostensible ‘left’ make political hay from it? Yes, absolutely I mean I know it’s a sarcastic meme but orange man bad, well yes? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3281 Posts
On November 29 2021 08:40 BlackJack wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 29 2021 07:59 Sadist wrote: See I disagree with this both sidesism. At least with regards to the US. Trump politicized it from the beginning because he was worried about the stock market/reelection. I dont think you can say the democrats politicized this. This is only a political issue because the republicans made it one. You can just look at Biden and Kamala's tweets on Trump's travel bans or on whether the vaccine is rushed and whether people should trust it. People acted like Trump could have stopped a highly contagious virus from spreading just by saying or doing a few things differently. They beat him up on it and it accomplished the mission of getting him out. I think your argument would be stronger were this statement not so overbroad. This might be a nitpick, but I actually think it’s fairly important. I mean, many experts, not just lefty politicians, were pretty critical of Russia’s decision to skip phase 3 and just approve their vaccine so they could claim they got there first. Is that “vaccine hesitancy”? Guys like Derek Lowe were writing last year about ongoing clinical trials, including possible poor efficacy and side effects vaccines can cause that they were worried about (and, later, writing joyously that the results far exceeded their expectations). These are, quite literally, expressions of hesitation about the vaccines, but I doubt you think those people should have been shouted down. I don’t recall Biden’s or Harris’s specific tweets about the vaccine, but I do recall most critics at the time being pretty clear that their concern was about a premature approval getting pushed through by political appointees trying to score some last-minute points before the election. And it wasn’t without precedent, iirc the convalescent plasma EUA looked like that was probably what happened. This is the problem with “both sides” arguments: they attempt to draw analogy between very disparate groups to point out some common fault, but there are always going to be a lot of substantive differences between the groups which your analogy forces you to elide. If you enumerate a clear principle you think both groups are violating we could at least discuss whether those substantive differences help either side’s case, but if the principle is stated so broadly as to imply something like “no one should oppose any travel ban whatsoever or question any vaccine during a pandemic,” the analogy has elided too much detail to be useful. I don’t want to give Democrats too much credit; I think their rhetoric has mostly been a “if the facts are on your side, hammer the facts” calculation. I also don’t especially want this thread to be a covid-flavored USPMT. But I don’t think juxtaposing Democrats with the “CCP Virus” crowd and saying “look, the same!” is especially helpful. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On November 30 2021 03:38 ChristianS wrote: I don’t want to give Democrats too much credit; I think their rhetoric has mostly been a “if the facts are on your side, hammer the facts” calculation. I also don’t especially want this thread to be a covid-flavored USPMT. But I don’t think juxtaposing Democrats with the “CCP Virus” crowd and saying “look, the same!” is especially helpful. My personal take is that while Democrats avoided the outright conspiracy items like HCQ and bleach, they weren't exactly the "responsible party" in all this. They did heavily engage in throwing shade at anything that Trump might be able to take credit for (e.g. the vaccine development that he actually did quite well), they were quick to jump to the nearest medical consensus even if it made for disastrous public health policy or was something any sane person would rightfully be skeptical of, and they were more than happy to use their allies in big tech and the media to censor-but-it-doesn't-count-as-censorship any opinions they deemed sufficiently problematic (e.g. the "it came out of a lab in China" one, which they ended up taking a lot more seriously with Biden in charge). Not conspiratorial, but certainly guilty of bottom-dwelling opportunism. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4379 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/covid-booster-jabs-to-be-offered-to-all-uk-adults-after-three-month-gap UK’s minimum gap for Covid booster jabs to be halved to three months The UK’s minimum gap for Covid booster jabs will be halved from six months to three, after the government accepted advice from its vaccines watchdog to speed up the programme to limit the spread of the Omicron variant. The health secretary, Sajid Javid, confirmed that all adults would be offered the jab, after the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) announced that the waiting time was being cut for all adults, with priority for booking to be decided by the NHS. The watchdog said adults aged 18 to 39 should be offered booster jabs and recommended cutting the gap between second and third doses from at least six months to at least three months | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9768 Posts
On November 30 2021 06:10 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Roll up again guys, UK first to switch booster gap to just three month from six months.Australian booster schedule also now under review.Starting to make sense why Australia ordered over 150 million shots for next year... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/covid-booster-jabs-to-be-offered-to-all-uk-adults-after-three-month-gap They probably saw the economic benefits of having a vaccinated population compared to other countries earlier this year when the UK was doing well. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15732 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11723 Posts
On November 30 2021 06:10 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Roll up again guys, UK first to switch booster gap to just three month from six months.Australian booster schedule also now under review.Starting to make sense why Australia ordered over 150 million shots for next year... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/29/covid-booster-jabs-to-be-offered-to-all-uk-adults-after-three-month-gap You act as if getting vaccinated is such a huge horrific hassle. Also, as if there is any other alternative. Yeah, it is slightly annoying to have to go to the doctor. But i also already go to the dentist once or twice a year to check up, and yeah, that is also annoying, but i also like having teeth. As i get older, more and more routine visits become necessary. I am slowly reaching the age where a routine check for prostate cancer once a year is also recommended. Which i am pretty sure will not be fun, either. Women also already regularly visit their gynecologist for not-fun procedures which are nevertheless a good idea. I put getting vaccinated into the same category. Not fun, slightly annoying, but necessary and ultimately good for me. | ||
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emperorchampion
Canada9496 Posts
On November 30 2021 07:08 Mohdoo wrote: 6 months was brain dead to begin with. The data indicates 3 months is a much better idea. We knew this to begin with. 6 months was for the sake of conserving doses. Do you have a reference for this data? For example, from what I’ve seen, Israel looked at least 5 months after second dose and UK at least 140 days after. Very good effectiveness in these cases. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02249-2/fulltext https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Effectiveness of BNT162b2 (Comirnaty, Pfizer-BioNTech) COVID-19 booster vaccine against covid-19 related symptoms in England.docx/a366af4e-9c7f-ce86-bc58-1cb3b88e3378 | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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