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“Not antigen specific” is absurd, “antigen” basically means the thing an antibody binds to. If you have immunity because of your antibodies, your immunity is “antigen-specific.”
If the main biomedical intervention were monoclonal antibodies, there’d be an easier case for this. With everybody using the same monoclonal antibody to treat it, the virus might evolve to evade that specific antibody and keep infecting people. But since the main intervention is a vaccine, we’re only encouraging escape if vaccine-derived immunity is easier to escape than infection-derived immunity, which isn’t obviously the case. There’s not a lot on the virus besides spike proteins for you to form antibodies against, and the vaccine is effectively just presenting your body with those same spike proteins.
That is to say, if it escapes vaccine-based immunity it’ll probably escape natural immunity, too. That’s scary but it isn’t a reason not to vaccinate.
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You can have immunity that can deal with many antigens not just one specific antigen. That's what innate immunity does.
There's also acquired immunity but that's different
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Yeah, vaccine-derived immunity is polyclonal just like infection-derived immunity is.
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From wikipedia: Natural killer cells (NK cells) do not directly attack invading microbes. Rather, NK cells destroy compromised host cells, such as tumor cells or virus-infected cells, recognizing such cells by a condition known as "missing self." This term describes cells with abnormally low levels of a cell-surface marker called MHC I (major histocompatibility complex) - a situation that can arise in viral infections of host cells.
Doesn't seem like it's specific to any virus. So it doesn't matter which antigen the virus has.
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On November 28 2021 02:34 teeel141 wrote:From wikipedia: Show nested quote +Natural killer cells (NK cells) do not directly attack invading microbes. Rather, NK cells destroy compromised host cells, such as tumor cells or virus-infected cells, recognizing such cells by a condition known as "missing self." This term describes cells with abnormally low levels of a cell-surface marker called MHC I (major histocompatibility complex) - a situation that can arise in viral infections of host cells. Doesn't seem like it's specific to any virus. So it doesn't matter which antigen the virus has.
Ugh.
Two types of immune system, innate and adaptive. Natural killer cells are part of the innate immune system, which is okay for fighting an infection the first time but has no memory. Adaptive immune system uses antibodies, etc. to recognize stuff you’ve fought off before and make it much easier to fight off again. That’s *immunity*!
So everybody that got Covid without any immunity was getting the benefits of the innate immune system. Lotta those folks died. In fact, they’re *still* getting those benefits if the virus mutates to evade immunity. But it’s better to have immunity! And, ideally, without potentially dying from the virus first!
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I love these constant talking points from the pro-covid crowd.
"Trump did a good job with his handling of the virus by just letting everyone get it and die" "Things were great until we had a safe cheap and quick way to lower people getting on a ventilator by more then 20 times" "all further variants are not actually on the people who want other people to die but on the people who want other people to live"
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pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
In contrast to adaptive antibodies, natural antibodies (mainly IgMs) are produced before the exposure to foreign antigens or pathogens [25]. Unlike natural antibodies, adaptive antibodies are specific to a certain antigen and are produced by B2 cells, which require the binding of the antigen to the B-cell receptor (BCR) of B2 lymphocytes and the additional “help” of T lymphocytes
So polyvalent antibodies exist.
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But the innate immune system isn’t *immunity*! If it was, everybody everywhere would already have immunity to everything! This isn’t very complicated. I mean, immunology is, but the underlying concept here isn’t.
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I never said innate immunity has memory. I only said people who dont get symptomatic infections put no pressure on the virus.
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Except they do, because they then develop immunity. That’s the whole fucking point. Once people have immunity, there’s selective pressure on the virus to evade immunity.
If you lock your door, the invaders *might* go learn to pick locks. But it’s still stupid to intentionally leave your door unlocked.
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On November 28 2021 03:01 ChristianS wrote:
Except they do, because they then develop immunity. That’s the whole fucking point. Once people have immunity, there’s selective pressure on the virus to evade immunity.
If you lock your door, the invaders *might* go learn to pick locks. But it’s still stupid to intentionally leave your door unlocked.
People who have asymptomatic infections don't acquire immunity to covid. Only symptomatic people do.
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Do you know how they were testing whether you had asymptomatic infection last year? They tested whether you have antibodies against the virus. Because you still develop antibodies to the virus, because you still develop immunity. There’s arguments about whether that immunity is as robust or w/e, but someone with asymptomatic infection will still do better against repeat infection than someone with no immunity at all.
I’m not actually sure what the moderation threshold for misinformation in the covid thread is, but “asymptomatic people don’t develop immunity” might be approaching it?
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On November 28 2021 03:11 ChristianS wrote:
Do you know how they were testing whether you had asymptomatic infection last year? They tested whether you have antibodies against the virus. Because you still develop antibodies to the virus, because you still develop immunity. There’s arguments about whether that immunity is as robust or w/e, but someone with asymptomatic infection will still do better against repeat infection than someone with no immunity at all.
I’m not actually sure what the moderation threshold for misinformation in the covid thread is, but “asymptomatic people don’t develop immunity” might be approaching it?
Yes there are some short term antibodies but no long term immunity and no memory. I think those antibodies are gone after 6 weeks.
User was warned for this post.
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On November 28 2021 03:11 ChristianS wrote:
Do you know how they were testing whether you had asymptomatic infection last year? They tested whether you have antibodies against the virus. Because you still develop antibodies to the virus, because you still develop immunity. There’s arguments about whether that immunity is as robust or w/e, but someone with asymptomatic infection will still do better against repeat infection than someone with no immunity at all.
I’m not actually sure what the moderation threshold for misinformation in the covid thread is, but “asymptomatic people don’t develop immunity” might be approaching it?
I'm just the husband of a microbiologist, but even I can see that is over the misinformation threshold. That is downright false info and should be deleted.
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On November 28 2021 03:05 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2021 03:01 ChristianS wrote:
Except they do, because they then develop immunity. That’s the whole fucking point. Once people have immunity, there’s selective pressure on the virus to evade immunity.
If you lock your door, the invaders *might* go learn to pick locks. But it’s still stupid to intentionally leave your door unlocked. People who have asymptomatic infections don't acquire immunity to covid. Only symptomatic people do.
Citation needed.
What I remember reading symptomatic Covid may or may not infer immunity, and so may asymptomatic Covid. But it's an area of active research, because our immune response to Covid is overall difficult to generalize. Luckily the vaccines are *good* at triggering an immune response that produces antibodies, and therefore infers your body with an advantage the next time anything with the same antigen enters your body.
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Teeel141, you keep making all those false claims. Don't you get tired? Another one you've made was that asymptomatic infections make up the majority of cases. That's blatantly not true. We've known that for over a year now...
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On November 28 2021 03:18 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2021 03:11 ChristianS wrote:
Do you know how they were testing whether you had asymptomatic infection last year? They tested whether you have antibodies against the virus. Because you still develop antibodies to the virus, because you still develop immunity. There’s arguments about whether that immunity is as robust or w/e, but someone with asymptomatic infection will still do better against repeat infection than someone with no immunity at all.
I’m not actually sure what the moderation threshold for misinformation in the covid thread is, but “asymptomatic people don’t develop immunity” might be approaching it? Yes there are some short term antibodies but no long term immunity and no memory. I think those antibodies are gone after 6 weeks.
Took two seconds of googling (from Nature):
There is evidence for significantly higher levels of SARS-CoV-2 spike protein-specific antibodies in samples from individuals with symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection compared with samples from individuals who had asymptomatic infections7, as well as a more sustained antibody titre that was still detectable at 7 months after infection51; from a lower starting titre, individuals with asymptomatic infections were more likely to have reverted to being seronegative. We conducted a long-term study of a cohort of health-care workers through a programme of regular PCR testing, which allowed us to map comparative immunity in individuals with symptomatic and asymptomatic presentation. In that study, we found that titres of neutralizing antibodies were sustained at a similarly high, protective level at 4 months after infection, irrespective of symptomatic or asymptomatic disease
Note that seronegative doesn’t mean not immune, it just means the neutralizing antibodies are gone. You don’t keep those around for every immunity forever, your body remembers how to make them and builds them again when needed.
TL;DR: asymptomatic infection might produce less robust immunity but those individuals are still protected against future infection, which is what immunity is. More fundamentally: immunity is a good thing and you should want more people to have it.
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On November 28 2021 03:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2021 03:05 teeel141 wrote:On November 28 2021 03:01 ChristianS wrote:
Except they do, because they then develop immunity. That’s the whole fucking point. Once people have immunity, there’s selective pressure on the virus to evade immunity.
If you lock your door, the invaders *might* go learn to pick locks. But it’s still stupid to intentionally leave your door unlocked. People who have asymptomatic infections don't acquire immunity to covid. Only symptomatic people do. Citation needed. What I remember reading symptomatic Covid may or may not infer immunity, and so may asymptomatic Covid. But it's an area of active research, because our immune response to Covid is overall difficult to generalize. Luckily the vaccines are *good* at triggering an immune response that produces antibodies, and therefore infers your body with an advantage the next time anything with the same antigen enters your body.
Vaccines use the s1 protein from wuhan strain, so how is it the same antigen?
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On November 28 2021 03:32 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2021 03:21 Acrofales wrote:On November 28 2021 03:05 teeel141 wrote:On November 28 2021 03:01 ChristianS wrote:
Except they do, because they then develop immunity. That’s the whole fucking point. Once people have immunity, there’s selective pressure on the virus to evade immunity.
If you lock your door, the invaders *might* go learn to pick locks. But it’s still stupid to intentionally leave your door unlocked. People who have asymptomatic infections don't acquire immunity to covid. Only symptomatic people do. Citation needed. What I remember reading symptomatic Covid may or may not infer immunity, and so may asymptomatic Covid. But it's an area of active research, because our immune response to Covid is overall difficult to generalize. Luckily the vaccines are *good* at triggering an immune response that produces antibodies, and therefore infers your body with an advantage the next time anything with the same antigen enters your body. Vaccines use the s1 protein from wuhan strain, so how is it the same antigen?
I deleted my spiel about how antibodies work, but you clearly need it. Antibodies don't bind to a whole antigen, but rather to different epitopes (sequences of aminoacids that are present on the antigen). Basically your body takes the antigen, snips it up, and produces proteins that bind to the different shapes that got snipped apart. Some of those will work and some of those won't. The good thing is that the next virus doesn't have to have the exact same antigen, but as long as there are enough similar sequences most of your antibodies will work just fine. That's why the vaccine protects people from the alpha, beta and delta variants, albeit not quite as well as against the original virus.
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Norway28736 Posts
On November 28 2021 03:20 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2021 03:11 ChristianS wrote:
Do you know how they were testing whether you had asymptomatic infection last year? They tested whether you have antibodies against the virus. Because you still develop antibodies to the virus, because you still develop immunity. There’s arguments about whether that immunity is as robust or w/e, but someone with asymptomatic infection will still do better against repeat infection than someone with no immunity at all.
I’m not actually sure what the moderation threshold for misinformation in the covid thread is, but “asymptomatic people don’t develop immunity” might be approaching it? I'm just the husband of a microbiologist, but even I can see that is over the misinformation threshold. That is downright false info and should be deleted.
I think Christians refutations are much better than deleting the statements in terms of 'hindering the spread of misinformation'.
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EPT
