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On September 03 2021 06:31 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2021 05:01 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 00:57 JimmiC wrote:
Vaccination laws used to be very common, small pox is thr big one. Im not sure we need to go there or even should. I do however support the passport system where you either have to be vaccinated or jump through a bunch of hoops to use non essential services. I also think it completely makes sense to have increased costs for health/life insurance the same way we have with smoking for a long time.
People should have choice but they should shoulder the responsibilty for those choices, it shouldnt be individual choice and soiciety shoulders the responibility and costs (not just financial) for those choices. Imagine being so arrogant and hubristic as to think one is in a position to decree what is or is not an essential service for someone else. You people are truly something else It is hard to take someone serious on their soap box statement while they say "you people". Determining what is an essential service is pretty well defined. And having people make sure they are not a danger to others is sound. Or is a 45 min wait or brining a negative test with them a afront on their human rights? What a extremely weak greivence. 🤣
You’re in luck! Being taken serious by you is not my goal; being free from your sick values is.
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On September 03 2021 06:56 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2021 05:22 Acrofales wrote:On September 03 2021 05:01 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 00:57 JimmiC wrote:
Vaccination laws used to be very common, small pox is thr big one. Im not sure we need to go there or even should. I do however support the passport system where you either have to be vaccinated or jump through a bunch of hoops to use non essential services. I also think it completely makes sense to have increased costs for health/life insurance the same way we have with smoking for a long time.
People should have choice but they should shoulder the responsibilty for those choices, it shouldnt be individual choice and soiciety shoulders the responibility and costs (not just financial) for those choices. Imagine being so arrogant and hubristic as to think one is in a position to decree what is or is not an essential service for someone else. You people are truly something else There's probably a grey area, but bars, theatre, concerts, cinemas and clubs are definitely not essential for anyone. Nor is the sport school or a whole range of shops. I don't think it's crazy to expect people who want to partake in such leisure activities to not put the other people there in more danger than they need to. In other words, be vaccinated. Apologies! I didnt realize you were the definitive authority on all matters regarding what is essential and what is merely leisure. Oh joy; whenever there’s a dispute, we can simply turn to you and we shall know the Truth. As for your second paragraph, that’s an interesting argument. Now let us apply your logic to things not vaccination. Should people whose immune system is deemed too weak not be allowed to partake in leisure activities? Should people whose efforts in strengthening their immune system (life style choices) are found wanting not be allowed? Here’s an idea: how about you find likeminded people who value safety (or the illusion of it anyway) over liberty and then you can agree as a community to do things as you see fit - instead of calling for the imposition of your appalling anti-human nonsense with coersion and violence like a machiavellian psychopath?
Your arguments are completely broken.
Regarding the first one, while there may be grey areas, there are also very clear areas. One does not need to know the exact borders between essential and nonessential as long as one err on the side of something being essential. This applies in a lot of situations. I may not be able to exactly and confidentially decide at what point something feels cold to people. Yet i can confidently say that something at -20°C is cold, while something at +80°C is not.
Regarding your second point, there is a difference between endangering yourself and endangering others which you deliberately ignore here.
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On September 03 2021 07:09 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2021 06:56 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 05:22 Acrofales wrote:On September 03 2021 05:01 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 00:57 JimmiC wrote:
Vaccination laws used to be very common, small pox is thr big one. Im not sure we need to go there or even should. I do however support the passport system where you either have to be vaccinated or jump through a bunch of hoops to use non essential services. I also think it completely makes sense to have increased costs for health/life insurance the same way we have with smoking for a long time.
People should have choice but they should shoulder the responsibilty for those choices, it shouldnt be individual choice and soiciety shoulders the responibility and costs (not just financial) for those choices. Imagine being so arrogant and hubristic as to think one is in a position to decree what is or is not an essential service for someone else. You people are truly something else There's probably a grey area, but bars, theatre, concerts, cinemas and clubs are definitely not essential for anyone. Nor is the sport school or a whole range of shops. I don't think it's crazy to expect people who want to partake in such leisure activities to not put the other people there in more danger than they need to. In other words, be vaccinated. Apologies! I didnt realize you were the definitive authority on all matters regarding what is essential and what is merely leisure. Oh joy; whenever there’s a dispute, we can simply turn to you and we shall know the Truth. As for your second paragraph, that’s an interesting argument. Now let us apply your logic to things not vaccination. Should people whose immune system is deemed too weak not be allowed to partake in leisure activities? Should people whose efforts in strengthening their immune system (life style choices) are found wanting not be allowed? Here’s an idea: how about you find likeminded people who value safety (or the illusion of it anyway) over liberty and then you can agree as a community to do things as you see fit - instead of calling for the imposition of your appalling anti-human nonsense with coersion and violence like a machiavellian psychopath? Your arguments are completely broken. Regarding the first one, while there may be grey areas, there are also very clear areas. One does not need to know the exact borders between essential and nonessential as long as one err on the side of something being essential. This applies in a lot of situations. I may not be able to exactly and confidentially decide at what point something feels cold to people. Yet i can confidently say that something at -20°C is cold, while something at +80°C is not. Regarding your second point, there is a difference between endangering yourself and endangering others which you deliberately ignore here.
Im not ignoring that at all; you are, however, missing my point (which granted I could have explained more elaborately).
My point was a weak response to the virus will put other people in more danger than they need to be - irregardless of what is the cause of a weak response: whether that is due to no vaccination or due to a poor immune system (self-imposed or not). Which begs the question: do you apply your logic equally to all cases?
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On September 03 2021 07:18 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2021 06:59 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 06:31 JimmiC wrote:On September 03 2021 05:01 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 00:57 JimmiC wrote:
Vaccination laws used to be very common, small pox is thr big one. Im not sure we need to go there or even should. I do however support the passport system where you either have to be vaccinated or jump through a bunch of hoops to use non essential services. I also think it completely makes sense to have increased costs for health/life insurance the same way we have with smoking for a long time.
People should have choice but they should shoulder the responsibilty for those choices, it shouldnt be individual choice and soiciety shoulders the responibility and costs (not just financial) for those choices. Imagine being so arrogant and hubristic as to think one is in a position to decree what is or is not an essential service for someone else. You people are truly something else It is hard to take someone serious on their soap box statement while they say "you people". Determining what is an essential service is pretty well defined. And having people make sure they are not a danger to others is sound. Or is a 45 min wait or brining a negative test with them a afront on their human rights? What a extremely weak greivence. 🤣 You’re in luck! Being taken serious by you is not my goal; being free from your sick values is. Yes so sick, imagine expecting people to accept the responsibity that goes with freedom. Also, if you actually did not care you would not respond. Between the "you people" and this makes you come off very immature. You are of course free of my values, only responsible to the values of your society. But TBH with the little value you bring and with hyperboyle and insults running fast and furious Im surprised this alt has lasted as long as it has, so congrats?....
Incredible. You cry foul that I called your values sick and the proceed to call me immature in the same breath. One is an insult according to you but the other is not? You people have no self-awareness xD
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On September 03 2021 07:56 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2021 07:41 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 07:18 JimmiC wrote:On September 03 2021 06:59 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 06:31 JimmiC wrote:On September 03 2021 05:01 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 00:57 JimmiC wrote:
Vaccination laws used to be very common, small pox is thr big one. Im not sure we need to go there or even should. I do however support the passport system where you either have to be vaccinated or jump through a bunch of hoops to use non essential services. I also think it completely makes sense to have increased costs for health/life insurance the same way we have with smoking for a long time.
People should have choice but they should shoulder the responsibilty for those choices, it shouldnt be individual choice and soiciety shoulders the responibility and costs (not just financial) for those choices. Imagine being so arrogant and hubristic as to think one is in a position to decree what is or is not an essential service for someone else. You people are truly something else It is hard to take someone serious on their soap box statement while they say "you people". Determining what is an essential service is pretty well defined. And having people make sure they are not a danger to others is sound. Or is a 45 min wait or brining a negative test with them a afront on their human rights? What a extremely weak greivence. 🤣 You’re in luck! Being taken serious by you is not my goal; being free from your sick values is. Yes so sick, imagine expecting people to accept the responsibity that goes with freedom. Also, if you actually did not care you would not respond. Between the "you people" and this makes you come off very immature. You are of course free of my values, only responsible to the values of your society. But TBH with the little value you bring and with hyperboyle and insults running fast and furious Im surprised this alt has lasted as long as it has, so congrats?.... Incredible. You cry foul that I called your values sick and the proceed to call me immature in the same breath. One is an insult according to you but the other is not? You people have no self-awareness xD Actually you said arrogant, hubris, sick and so on. I also did not call you immature but said you came off as immature. That is talking about your actions not who you are. So its not my awareness, it is your reading comprehension.
Yes yes very sophisticated and mature of you to include the caveat that its not that you think x; its that x is the impression you find yourself getting.
I thought all of that went without saying; so let me rephrase: Its not that I think you are a sick psychopath - you just come off that way
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 03 2021 08:41 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2021 08:05 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 07:56 JimmiC wrote:On September 03 2021 07:41 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 07:18 JimmiC wrote:On September 03 2021 06:59 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 06:31 JimmiC wrote:On September 03 2021 05:01 Amumoman wrote:On September 03 2021 00:57 JimmiC wrote:
Vaccination laws used to be very common, small pox is thr big one. Im not sure we need to go there or even should. I do however support the passport system where you either have to be vaccinated or jump through a bunch of hoops to use non essential services. I also think it completely makes sense to have increased costs for health/life insurance the same way we have with smoking for a long time.
People should have choice but they should shoulder the responsibilty for those choices, it shouldnt be individual choice and soiciety shoulders the responibility and costs (not just financial) for those choices. Imagine being so arrogant and hubristic as to think one is in a position to decree what is or is not an essential service for someone else. You people are truly something else It is hard to take someone serious on their soap box statement while they say "you people". Determining what is an essential service is pretty well defined. And having people make sure they are not a danger to others is sound. Or is a 45 min wait or brining a negative test with them a afront on their human rights? What a extremely weak greivence. 🤣 You’re in luck! Being taken serious by you is not my goal; being free from your sick values is. Yes so sick, imagine expecting people to accept the responsibity that goes with freedom. Also, if you actually did not care you would not respond. Between the "you people" and this makes you come off very immature. You are of course free of my values, only responsible to the values of your society. But TBH with the little value you bring and with hyperboyle and insults running fast and furious Im surprised this alt has lasted as long as it has, so congrats?.... Incredible. You cry foul that I called your values sick and the proceed to call me immature in the same breath. One is an insult according to you but the other is not? You people have no self-awareness xD Actually you said arrogant, hubris, sick and so on. I also did not call you immature but said you came off as immature. That is talking about your actions not who you are. So its not my awareness, it is your reading comprehension. Yes yes very sophisticated and mature of you to include the caveat that its not that you think x; its that x is the impression you find yourself getting. I thought all of that went without saying; so let me rephrase: Its not that I think you are a sick psychopath - you just come off that way Its actually not complicated. People can chamge behavior but not who they are. Pretty basic feedback rules. What makes me come off in that way to you? That people will be required to bring a negatuve test to go to the movies?
Pathology means sickness. Psycho means relating to mind. I think what I find you arguing in favor of/valuing is not conducive to the thriving of man. I think valuing safety over liberty will cost us dearly looking at the bigger picture. In other words my impression is that your mind is ill; ergo psychopathological.
Of course, I could have instead gone with something lame like “I disagree with you about x for y reason” but I find it more cathartic and engaging to opt for the other approach.
But I am aware that my presense here is thought of as distracting and derailing so I’ll refrain from posting further.
Wish you all good health
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JimmiC is perhaps one of the most mild, kind people on this forum and someone called him a psychopath. I must be an axe murderer XD
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https://www.680news.com/2021/09/02/ontario-vaccine-certificate-document/
Vaccine appointments more than doubled after certificate announcement, health minister says
I already talked about my shit head cousin saying she'd get the vax since it was required for her stupid trashy cruise. Here is more evidence antivaxers largely feel like they have the luxury of being assholes. As soon as it will actually impact their lives, wouldn't ya know it, they bend the knee.
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On September 03 2021 12:59 Mohdoo wrote:https://www.680news.com/2021/09/02/ontario-vaccine-certificate-document/Show nested quote +
Vaccine appointments more than doubled after certificate announcement, health minister says
I already talked about my shit head cousin saying she'd get the vax since it was required for her stupid trashy cruise. Here is more evidence antivaxers largely feel like they have the luxury of being assholes. As soon as it will actually impact their lives, wouldn't ya know it, they bend the knee.
Imagine this surprise: People like to live!
If I would point a gun at you and tell you to say "I'm a horse" or I will shoot you. Would you do say so?
I think it is completely bullshit!
Governments of the world! Come on, drop your pants and say the words: "Mandatory Covid Vaccination!" Don't shit around with "freedom of choice" and basically making mandatory vaccinations via backdoor! It is just dishonest behaviour! Suck it up!
Waiting for reports, that some "illegal bar" was taken down, that was serving patreons and didn't care if they were vaccinated or not!
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I'm ambivalent on this issue. I think some kind of vaccine passport could be reasonable to get access to some things, such as movie theaters or what ever - but only if it's clear that this is for a limited amount of time only. At the same time, I'm very scared of what this kind of reasoning will lead to. I don't think it's out of the question that we end up with something similar to the Chinese social credit system in the west. And that is fucking scary. Much more scary than Corona.
On a deeper level I think it's the kind of public signaling about corona that has created much of the problems that we have now. For example, if you speculated about the death rates on facebook a while back you'd get banned if you were even close to the low mortality rate that we now know that the disease has. Corona has been characterized, from where I see it, by an incredibly authoritarian way of looking at knowledge. The "establishment" projected absolute truths about death rates, the importance of masks, the efficacy of lock-downs. But if you have that attitude towards science and you are wrong, people won't trust you anymore. That in turn leads to such problems as people refusing the vaccines.
Here in Sweden we had a similar thing with immigration. Everyone from researchers to politicians told us over and over about the benefits of migration and how it would help the economy. If anyone objected in any way or even tried to critically examine these "truths" they'd get shunned. Now we know for a fact that immigration has cost insanely much money over the last decade and that it has skyrocked the crime rates. What's the result? People doesn't listen to the authorities anymore. That's a huge problem.
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@Geisterkarle
You dont need to to wait for reports.
Last year, during lockdawn polish police were shutting down resturants which opened secretly and hosted parties and wedding receptions and after lockdown for violating some other covid related limitations. This has already happend, not only in Poland i am sure.
Everytime i see someone claiming that mandatory vaccinations are more scary than the disease that killed two of my family members i want to punch that person in the face.
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Norway28736 Posts
Yep - political trust is a really important piece of capital for a democratic country, and one that is much easier to spend than to recreate. Consequently, any 'solution' to covid that diminishes trust is likely to have negative consequences at some point in time when some future crisis depends upon people having trust in their government.
Authoritarianism is an option, of course - you don't need people to trust government if they are afraid of disobeying - but I'd argue that this makes society significantly worse in other ways.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On September 03 2021 12:45 Mohdoo wrote:
JimmiC is perhaps one of the most mild, kind people on this forum and someone called him a psychopath. I must be an axe murderer XD
Ah, been a while since I encountered one in the wild! Mostly by choice. The ‘oh I just discovered taxation is theft and have yet to mesh it into a belief that isn’t completely detached from reality’ types.
No you’re Chairman Maodoo/The Stalin of Stalin’ Covid. It’s not psychopathic if it’s for the greater good!
To be fair I’m basically in the same boat at this stage, helping ferry to Mohdoo IslandTM.
Even the sternest of souls can get worn down by terrible, terrible arguments or errant factual nonsense over such a sustained period of time. They’re everywhere too, I’m in some group reposting Far Side cartoons and people stubbornly insist that every second cartoon is some allegory about vaccinations somehow.
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On September 03 2021 19:01 Silvanel wrote:
@Geisterkarle
You dont need to to wait for reports.
Last year, during lockdawn polish police were shutting down resturants which opened secretly and hosted parties and wedding receptions and after lockdown for violating some other covid related limitations. This has already happend, not only in Poland i am sure.
Well, this was the time of "no restaurants allowed". Or I'm not sure what these covid related limitations were... people not wearing masks while going to the toilet? Tables to close together?
But we are now at the "next step" of "restaurants allowed, but you have to confirm that visitors are vaccinated". I'm quite sure that there will be similar "basement locations" that will not check for vaccinations!
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On September 03 2021 21:20 Geisterkarle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2021 19:01 Silvanel wrote:
@Geisterkarle
You dont need to to wait for reports.
Last year, during lockdawn polish police were shutting down resturants which opened secretly and hosted parties and wedding receptions and after lockdown for violating some other covid related limitations. This has already happend, not only in Poland i am sure. Well, this was the time of "no restaurants allowed". Or I'm not sure what these covid related limitations were... people not wearing masks while going to the toilet? Tables to close together? But we are now at the "next step" of "restaurants allowed, but you have to confirm that visitors are vaccinated". I'm quite sure that there will be similar "basement locations" that will not check for vaccinations!
In places where masking is impossible, like inside restaurants while eating a meal, confirming vaccination is definitely one way to mitigate the health risks to your customers and employees, during a global pandemic. That makes a lot of sense to me, and if I owned a business that had moderate/heavy foot traffic / large groups of people, I would enforce this too.
If some businesses don't check for vaccinations or enforce mask mandates, they're enabling the spread of coronavirus. I would avoid those places and shop/eat at their competitors who are taking the pandemic more seriously.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On September 03 2021 18:55 Elroi wrote:
I'm ambivalent on this issue. I think some kind of vaccine passport could be reasonable to get access to some things, such as movie theaters or what ever - but only if it's clear that this is for a limited amount of time only. At the same time, I'm very scared of what this kind of reasoning will lead to. I don't think it's out of the question that we end up with something similar to the Chinese social credit system in the west. And that is fucking scary. Much more scary than Corona.
On a deeper level I think it's the kind of public signaling about corona that has created much of the problems that we have now. For example, if you speculated about the death rates on facebook a while back you'd get banned if you were even close to the low mortality rate that we now know that the disease has. Corona has been characterized, from where I see it, by an incredibly authoritarian way of looking at knowledge. The "establishment" projected absolute truths about death rates, the importance of masks, the efficacy of lock-downs. But if you have that attitude towards science and you are wrong, people won't trust you anymore. That in turn leads to such problems as people refusing the vaccines.
Here in Sweden we had a similar thing with immigration. Everyone from researchers to politicians told us over and over about the benefits of migration and how it would help the economy. If anyone objected in any way or even tried to critically examine these "truths" they'd get shunned. Now we know for a fact that immigration has cost insanely much money over the last decade and that it has skyrocked the crime rates. What's the result? People doesn't listen to the authorities anymore. That's a huge problem.
Migration is a touchy subject I tend to avoid like the plague, you may be correct on that however. I’m a little wary of how hard the far right are banging the ‘Sweden has no-go zones’ drum, as invariably they’re usually either earnestly wrong, or more frequently hugely disingenuous.
On Covid-related issues, did the scientific community really peddle anything but projections with the best information to hand at the time?
Not that there weren’t missteps with communication or no mistakes made whatsoever, and I’m sure there are examples one could find of some folks being more absolutist with what they were saying.
There’s a staggering portion of the population worldwide who don’t seem to understand this, and then turn to ‘oh I’m confused they said this would happen and it didn’t, so I’m not going to listen to them next time’, which is honestly baffling.
Then there’s people who are just cherrypicking around to justify their own intuitions and are wholly disingenuous in the process, they never had trust in the scientific community to begin with.
Case in point being Anders Tegnell and Sweden’s approach which was invoked all the time by folks who didn’t want to lock down the world over. When Tegnell himself changed approach and away from going to herd immunity, do you hear a peep about [i]him[/] being wrong (from that cohort)?
I sure as hell haven’t, it’s still Fauci, Fauci and more Fauci.
As for Facebook, well I don’t know. It will either be a complete free for all, or if they try to moderate you’ll end up with stupid bans against people earnestly discussing things who aren’t meant to get caught.
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I seriously doubt that people were getting banned from Facebook for questioning the fatality risk. Facebook is notoriously bad at fighting misinformation. Not to mention the fact that reputable sources were usually careful about how they reported the mortality risk, e.g. by differentiating between CFR and IFR.
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EPT
