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On November 23 2020 01:03 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:54 Mohdoo wrote:On November 23 2020 00:40 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:35 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:27 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:17 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. The internal inconsistency contained within this single post is astounding, for someone so keen on pointing out that this is not a black and white issue, you sure seem certain that government acts are singularly responsible for the economic harms facing everyone. That's not only stupid and unprovable, it's exactly the kind of black and white thinking you claim to decry. First of all I didn't put all the blame on the governments. Where did I say politicians are the only ones with fault? I'm saying they carry a lot of the fault. And now we should just all pretend that they know what they're doing? And that everything's gonna be fine? Back in January we had known cases of covid-19 from the border in my country. Do you know what the government did? Do you think they closed the border? Consult any virologists on what to do? Do voluntary testing in the area? The answer is: none of the above. It was business as usual. Two people were quarantined, travel at that area was shut down for exactly one day, and international travel continued uninterrupted. Prior to those infections, our government already knew that there was a new and dangerous virus going around in other countries. They could've stopped international travel right then and there, but they didn't. And that was just my government. Many others acted practically the same. You said: On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses. That's black and white bullshit and you know it, parsing the economic consequences of pandemic mitigation measures requires stable inferences as to what the economy would look like sans measures, which are not available in any shape or form. You and the others decrying the government have never wrestled with this fact, likely because you simply cannot. Instead, you've created a fantasy world in which less strict measures were implemented and the economy is somehow magically better off. That's nonsense. The virus didn't shut any businesses down, that was because of government mandates. For a while they reopened them (wanna know why? Because people need an income), and now they're closed again. Was the virus suddenly gone during that period when the government allowed businesses to reopen? No, it wasn't. So why are you saying that something other than the government put restrictions on businesses? Iowa is a strong argument against what you’re saying. Tons of businesses had to lay people off because sales plummeted without any shut down. People act beyond what the government tells them to do Because it's a chain reaction. The more people lose purchasing power due to losing their jobs, the more businesses lose customers, which again reduces purchasing power, which again loses businesses customers, etc. etc.
Yes, which means covid being a threat is enough to close businesses, which in my eyes means the best solution is to just focus on eliminating it and moving on, as some countries have done.
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The point I was trying to make is simply that it's not helpful to say "you're ignorant" in response to their concerns, be those concerns valid or not. It's not helpful to be condescending towards people, and neither is it helpful to claim to "have the facts" while others don't. Information needs to be fluid in this fight against the coronavirus, and we need to be open to all arising issues. To just dismiss other people's experience and call it negligible compared to the suffering the virus itself causes isn't helpful.
What we need is more communication. This way of talking to people shuts down communication.
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On November 23 2020 01:00 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:50 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2020 00:43 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 23 2020 00:04 Magic Powers wrote:
There are many thousands, or rather millions of jobs being lost. Untold amounts of people are struggling to even keep food on the table. More parents than in a very long time don't know how to keep their kids fed and healthy. Most parents, when you ask them, just want to get a job. They want financial security, and they know only having a job can provide that for them. But far too many can't find one right now because of the restrictions on businesses, or businesses having to file for bankruptcy, especially smaller ones. There are many jobs that will be lost permanently. Many careers flushed down the drain, dreams shattered, and even basic neccessities are becoming hard to come by for many people.
And here you are telling people to "make a small sacrifice". How old are you even? Hmm. Sounds like a good reason for Congress to pass sweeping stimulus and financial support like other peer countries have done. This shouldn't be a choice between economics and health. Crises like this are precisely what the government is here for. No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. No it doesn't and this is some disgustingly immoral, ingrained capitalist dogma. The economy isn't any kind of moral virtue. It is an abstract concept that is an analogue for people's well-being. That is what matters when talking about any social or economic issue. The well-being of people. As I mentioned, this shouldn't be a choice between the economy and people's lives. Other countries have proven that economic stimulus and support is possible. When the economy crashes, everything collapses. People will run out of money to buy food and clothes, to pay their utility bills, to receive medical care, and so on. The economy is not some invention of the mind, it's tangible and it runs literally everything. Without the economy we have nothing at all. You have the faulty assumption that it would be better for the economy to have all businesses stay open once ICUs are full. Think through how that is going to impact the economy. They stay afloat though either their savings, moving their business model to local delivery, government assistance, rent deals with their landlord who don't want to lose all thier commercial renters and so on. No one here is saying lockdowns are good for businesses, it is just that some of realize that what is hurting the economy is the COVID spread and not the lockdown to stop the spread. You are basically a guy with a broken leg who is blaming the cast for not being able to walk and seemingly unaware that the cast is what is helping you heal you leg and stopping you from a much worse outcome. Show nested quote +You have the faulty assumption that it would be better for the economy to have all businesses stay open once ICUs are full. No, I don't. For some reason you believe that I'm assuming that. Show nested quote +No one here is saying lockdowns are good for businesses, it is just that some of realize that what is hurting the economy is the COVID spread and not the lockdown to stop the spread. The lockdown is the thing that's hurting the economy. The information the government has about the virus (or thinks it has) is driving the decision to do lockdowns. The virus itself is not driving that decision. Look at South Korea. No major lockdowns. Cases have stayed down relatively well, the economy has been well protected. Why can't our governments follow their lead? We don't even need to be like Taiwan, they're too much of a model nation in regards to viruses. South Korea wasn't prepared like Taiwan was, but they seem to be doing very well. They now have a surge of cases of course, just like most other countries, but very minimally so. They'll get it under control much better. And that's because they have an extremely strong communication network between the government and the people and between people. They can keep lockdown measure to an absolute minimum, whereas other countries go completely overboard because they lack those communication skills. And why is that communication not happening? You say "just do this and all is ok" as if its that simple.
"We" in the West don't listen.
Governments said to keep distance, we didn't.
Governments said to wear masks, we didn't.
Governments said not to have gatherings, we did it anyway.
If your country are parties allowed? if not how often is it in the news that police broke up yet another illegal party?
Governments announce soft measures and people don't listen, cases pile up, hospitals fill up and to avoid disaster businesses have to be closed to force people to stop socialising and spreading the virus.
You yell at the government for turning to their measure of last resort to bring down the spread before hospitals get flooded instead of yelling at your countrymen who don't take the steps to stop it from getting that bad.
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On November 23 2020 01:38 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 01:26 Magic Powers wrote:
The point I was trying to make is simply that it's not helpful to say "you're ignorant" in response to their concerns, be those concerns valid or not. It's not helpful to be condescending towards people, and neither is it helpful to claim to "have the facts" while others don't. Information needs to be fluid in this fight against the coronavirus, and we need to be open to all arising issues. To just dismiss other people's experience and call it negligible compared to the suffering the virus itself causes isn't helpful.
What we need is more communication. This way of talking to people shuts down communication. There are certain things that need more communication and there are facts that need to be agreed upon. You can not have a discussion on math if someone believes 1+1=3 and is unwilling to have this questioned or corrected. It ends up with confusing, fighting, and more anger than if it never happened. Also, people get tired and with less patience as the same illogical and untrue arguments get posted over and over and always end up the same without factual backing.
But if we want people to understand, I think treating them like they're stupid or ignorant is not the right way. We don't need to treat this like an us-against-them situation, that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy then. "They" don't learn? Well, maybe it's because we don't treat them like they can learn. Ultimately everyone thinks what they do is right, for their own reasons.
Also, who says we're always right about everything? If we're wrong about something, but we're convinced that we're right because "we have the facts", that would make us no better than anyone else.
The truth is, information changes, and we don't know everything, so we need to be open to new information, even and especially that which we don't like to hear.
And for some people this is even a simple matter of morality. For some people, preventing someone from seeing their loved ones because of a virus is strictly wrong. You can disagree with that if you like. But we shouldn't act condescendingly towards those people. They care about their family and friends first, there's nothing wrong with that.
Moralities inevitably clash. That's not neccessarily a reason to become hostile.
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On November 23 2020 01:53 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 01:38 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2020 01:26 Magic Powers wrote:
The point I was trying to make is simply that it's not helpful to say "you're ignorant" in response to their concerns, be those concerns valid or not. It's not helpful to be condescending towards people, and neither is it helpful to claim to "have the facts" while others don't. Information needs to be fluid in this fight against the coronavirus, and we need to be open to all arising issues. To just dismiss other people's experience and call it negligible compared to the suffering the virus itself causes isn't helpful.
What we need is more communication. This way of talking to people shuts down communication. There are certain things that need more communication and there are facts that need to be agreed upon. You can not have a discussion on math if someone believes 1+1=3 and is unwilling to have this questioned or corrected. It ends up with confusing, fighting, and more anger than if it never happened. Also, people get tired and with less patience as the same illogical and untrue arguments get posted over and over and always end up the same without factual backing. But if we want people to understand, I think treating them like they're stupid or ignorant is not the right way. We don't need to treat this like an us-against-them situation, that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy then. "They" don't learn? Well, maybe it's because we don't treat them like they can learn. Ultimately everyone thinks what they do is right, for their own reasons. Also, who says we're always right about everything? If we're wrong about something, but we're convinced that we're right because "we have the facts", that would make us no better than anyone else. The truth is, information changes, and we don't know everything, so we need to be open to new information, even and especially that which we don't like to hear. And for some people this is even a simple matter of morality. For some people, preventing someone from seeing their loved ones because of a virus is strictly wrong. You can disagree with that if you like. But we shouldn't act condescendingly towards those people. They care about their family and friends first, there's nothing wrong with that. Moralities inevitably clash. That's not neccessarily a reason to become hostile. I care about my family and friends. That is why I am ok with no visiting them for a year so that I don't have to go to their funeral.
Surely caring about them involves not wanting them to get sick?
And we're 9-11 months into this. The time where people were not condescending was half a year ago. After spending half a year telling people to stop partying and just wear a mask I don't fault them for being condescending when yet another person comes by saying that the evil government should just let them get on with their lives.
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From the start we should've used the mass testing of whole regions method of South Korea to track the spreaders and isolate them as fast as possible. Now that the US and Europe is beyond redemption, only partial or complete lockdowns can slow the further spread of the infection.
Anti-social and mandatory mask measures didn't work, because the population didn't adhere to the recommendations. There should've been stricter laws being enforced all the way back when China locked down Wuhan, but to the random westerner his personal freedom is more important then a pandemic. Economy is suffering either way with or without lockdowns, the only saving grace is eradicating it with the vaccine.
China is still taking even single digit infections very seriously, putting lockdowns on cities and testing every single citizen if needed:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3110817/coronavirus-chinese-city-orders-tests-3-million-people-after
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What country had the capacity for mass testing back then?
We barely had capacity to test the people who were actually sick.
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On November 23 2020 02:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 01:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 01:38 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2020 01:26 Magic Powers wrote:
The point I was trying to make is simply that it's not helpful to say "you're ignorant" in response to their concerns, be those concerns valid or not. It's not helpful to be condescending towards people, and neither is it helpful to claim to "have the facts" while others don't. Information needs to be fluid in this fight against the coronavirus, and we need to be open to all arising issues. To just dismiss other people's experience and call it negligible compared to the suffering the virus itself causes isn't helpful.
What we need is more communication. This way of talking to people shuts down communication. There are certain things that need more communication and there are facts that need to be agreed upon. You can not have a discussion on math if someone believes 1+1=3 and is unwilling to have this questioned or corrected. It ends up with confusing, fighting, and more anger than if it never happened. Also, people get tired and with less patience as the same illogical and untrue arguments get posted over and over and always end up the same without factual backing. But if we want people to understand, I think treating them like they're stupid or ignorant is not the right way. We don't need to treat this like an us-against-them situation, that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy then. "They" don't learn? Well, maybe it's because we don't treat them like they can learn. Ultimately everyone thinks what they do is right, for their own reasons. Also, who says we're always right about everything? If we're wrong about something, but we're convinced that we're right because "we have the facts", that would make us no better than anyone else. The truth is, information changes, and we don't know everything, so we need to be open to new information, even and especially that which we don't like to hear. And for some people this is even a simple matter of morality. For some people, preventing someone from seeing their loved ones because of a virus is strictly wrong. You can disagree with that if you like. But we shouldn't act condescendingly towards those people. They care about their family and friends first, there's nothing wrong with that. Moralities inevitably clash. That's not neccessarily a reason to become hostile. I care about my family and friends. That is why I am ok with no visiting them for a year so that I don't have to go to their funeral. Surely caring about them involves not wanting them to get sick? And we're 9-11 months into this. The time where people were not condescending was half a year ago. After spending half a year telling people to stop partying and just wear a mask I don't fault them for being condescending when yet another person comes by saying that the evil government should just let them get on with their lives.
Maybe it's easy for us to say that our governments aren't being tyrannical, because so far they've been respecting our rights. Fears of a tyranny aren't exactly unfounded - on any side if I may say so.
The virus will go away eventually because we have the means to fight it. It's much harder to bring a tyranny to an end. Just ask the people of Hong Kong or East Germany. Then the matter of opinion would be how likely a tyranny is to result out of this. Well? Who us knows the answer to that? I sure don't. Right now I can only hope that I can keep my freedoms. But knowing what my government is capable of, I'm really not sure.
Maybe you can see why this is all not so simple and straight forward?
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On November 23 2020 02:09 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 01:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 01:38 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2020 01:26 Magic Powers wrote:
The point I was trying to make is simply that it's not helpful to say "you're ignorant" in response to their concerns, be those concerns valid or not. It's not helpful to be condescending towards people, and neither is it helpful to claim to "have the facts" while others don't. Information needs to be fluid in this fight against the coronavirus, and we need to be open to all arising issues. To just dismiss other people's experience and call it negligible compared to the suffering the virus itself causes isn't helpful.
What we need is more communication. This way of talking to people shuts down communication. There are certain things that need more communication and there are facts that need to be agreed upon. You can not have a discussion on math if someone believes 1+1=3 and is unwilling to have this questioned or corrected. It ends up with confusing, fighting, and more anger than if it never happened. Also, people get tired and with less patience as the same illogical and untrue arguments get posted over and over and always end up the same without factual backing. But if we want people to understand, I think treating them like they're stupid or ignorant is not the right way. We don't need to treat this like an us-against-them situation, that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy then. "They" don't learn? Well, maybe it's because we don't treat them like they can learn. Ultimately everyone thinks what they do is right, for their own reasons. Also, who says we're always right about everything? If we're wrong about something, but we're convinced that we're right because "we have the facts", that would make us no better than anyone else. The truth is, information changes, and we don't know everything, so we need to be open to new information, even and especially that which we don't like to hear. And for some people this is even a simple matter of morality. For some people, preventing someone from seeing their loved ones because of a virus is strictly wrong. You can disagree with that if you like. But we shouldn't act condescendingly towards those people. They care about their family and friends first, there's nothing wrong with that. Moralities inevitably clash. That's not neccessarily a reason to become hostile. Very few are prevented from seeing their loved ones. This is just one of the strawman. It eventually might get to this point, or you need to see them at a small distance. The issue is people make all sorts of excuses for why things need to be completely normal, and they can't be because it is a pandemic. If people are really against lockdowns, then the logical position is to be really for the measures that prevent lockdowns. If you are against both than you have a very illogical position. That is not condescending that is fact. People need to stop being offended when they find out they are acting in a illogical and in this case dangerous way and instead really think about the why.
My family is spread out over two countries (previously three), I haven't been able to visit some of them since the first lockdown. This is not a "strawman"...
I'm against unreasonable lockdowns, but I'm also against an unreasonably lax approach. Keyword "unreasonable". My country went too far in both directions, and as a result I still can't see all of my family. Forgive me for not enjoying the way our overlords are deciding to rule over us.
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On November 23 2020 02:33 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 02:09 Gorsameth wrote:On November 23 2020 01:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 01:38 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2020 01:26 Magic Powers wrote:
The point I was trying to make is simply that it's not helpful to say "you're ignorant" in response to their concerns, be those concerns valid or not. It's not helpful to be condescending towards people, and neither is it helpful to claim to "have the facts" while others don't. Information needs to be fluid in this fight against the coronavirus, and we need to be open to all arising issues. To just dismiss other people's experience and call it negligible compared to the suffering the virus itself causes isn't helpful.
What we need is more communication. This way of talking to people shuts down communication. There are certain things that need more communication and there are facts that need to be agreed upon. You can not have a discussion on math if someone believes 1+1=3 and is unwilling to have this questioned or corrected. It ends up with confusing, fighting, and more anger than if it never happened. Also, people get tired and with less patience as the same illogical and untrue arguments get posted over and over and always end up the same without factual backing. But if we want people to understand, I think treating them like they're stupid or ignorant is not the right way. We don't need to treat this like an us-against-them situation, that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy then. "They" don't learn? Well, maybe it's because we don't treat them like they can learn. Ultimately everyone thinks what they do is right, for their own reasons. Also, who says we're always right about everything? If we're wrong about something, but we're convinced that we're right because "we have the facts", that would make us no better than anyone else. The truth is, information changes, and we don't know everything, so we need to be open to new information, even and especially that which we don't like to hear. And for some people this is even a simple matter of morality. For some people, preventing someone from seeing their loved ones because of a virus is strictly wrong. You can disagree with that if you like. But we shouldn't act condescendingly towards those people. They care about their family and friends first, there's nothing wrong with that. Moralities inevitably clash. That's not neccessarily a reason to become hostile. I care about my family and friends. That is why I am ok with no visiting them for a year so that I don't have to go to their funeral. Surely caring about them involves not wanting them to get sick? And we're 9-11 months into this. The time where people were not condescending was half a year ago. After spending half a year telling people to stop partying and just wear a mask I don't fault them for being condescending when yet another person comes by saying that the evil government should just let them get on with their lives. Maybe it's easy for us to say that our governments aren't being tyrannical, because so far they've been respecting our rights. Fears of a tyranny aren't exactly unfounded - on any side if I may say so. The virus will go away eventually because we have the means to fight it. It's much harder to bring a tyranny to an end. Just ask the people of Hong Kong or East Germany. Then the matter of opinion would be how likely a tyranny is to result out of this. Well? Who us knows the answer to that? I sure don't. Right now I can only hope that I can keep my freedoms. But knowing what my government is capable of, I'm really not sure. Maybe you can see why this is all not so simple and straight forward? You go from "the economy must stay open at all costs" to "I care about my loved ones" and now "We must fight Tyranny" Oo. How, what?
What?
Why are you suddenly now talking about the Austrian government using the pandemic as a cover for instituting a tyranny?
I thought we were talking about the economic consequences of Covid.
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On November 23 2020 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 02:33 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 02:09 Gorsameth wrote:On November 23 2020 01:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 01:38 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2020 01:26 Magic Powers wrote:
The point I was trying to make is simply that it's not helpful to say "you're ignorant" in response to their concerns, be those concerns valid or not. It's not helpful to be condescending towards people, and neither is it helpful to claim to "have the facts" while others don't. Information needs to be fluid in this fight against the coronavirus, and we need to be open to all arising issues. To just dismiss other people's experience and call it negligible compared to the suffering the virus itself causes isn't helpful.
What we need is more communication. This way of talking to people shuts down communication. There are certain things that need more communication and there are facts that need to be agreed upon. You can not have a discussion on math if someone believes 1+1=3 and is unwilling to have this questioned or corrected. It ends up with confusing, fighting, and more anger than if it never happened. Also, people get tired and with less patience as the same illogical and untrue arguments get posted over and over and always end up the same without factual backing. But if we want people to understand, I think treating them like they're stupid or ignorant is not the right way. We don't need to treat this like an us-against-them situation, that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy then. "They" don't learn? Well, maybe it's because we don't treat them like they can learn. Ultimately everyone thinks what they do is right, for their own reasons. Also, who says we're always right about everything? If we're wrong about something, but we're convinced that we're right because "we have the facts", that would make us no better than anyone else. The truth is, information changes, and we don't know everything, so we need to be open to new information, even and especially that which we don't like to hear. And for some people this is even a simple matter of morality. For some people, preventing someone from seeing their loved ones because of a virus is strictly wrong. You can disagree with that if you like. But we shouldn't act condescendingly towards those people. They care about their family and friends first, there's nothing wrong with that. Moralities inevitably clash. That's not neccessarily a reason to become hostile. I care about my family and friends. That is why I am ok with no visiting them for a year so that I don't have to go to their funeral. Surely caring about them involves not wanting them to get sick? And we're 9-11 months into this. The time where people were not condescending was half a year ago. After spending half a year telling people to stop partying and just wear a mask I don't fault them for being condescending when yet another person comes by saying that the evil government should just let them get on with their lives. Maybe it's easy for us to say that our governments aren't being tyrannical, because so far they've been respecting our rights. Fears of a tyranny aren't exactly unfounded - on any side if I may say so. The virus will go away eventually because we have the means to fight it. It's much harder to bring a tyranny to an end. Just ask the people of Hong Kong or East Germany. Then the matter of opinion would be how likely a tyranny is to result out of this. Well? Who us knows the answer to that? I sure don't. Right now I can only hope that I can keep my freedoms. But knowing what my government is capable of, I'm really not sure. Maybe you can see why this is all not so simple and straight forward? You go from "the economy must stay open at all costs" to "I care about my loved ones" and now "We must fight Tyranny" Oo. How, what? What? Why are you suddenly now talking about the Austrian government using the pandemic as a cover for instituting a tyranny? I thought we were talking about the economic consequences of Covid.
I didn't say this will lead to a tyranny though? I'm describing how a train of thought can easily lead there. And I think it should be a constant worry of all citizens (especially during a crisis, as most tyrannies arise out of that).
But the point in the context of this conversation wasn't that I suspect a tyranny is going to come. The point is that we shouldn't be dismissive of other people's opinions just because we happen to disagree, regardless of how valid we think our stance is, or how invalid theirs.
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On November 23 2020 03:17 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:On November 23 2020 02:33 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 02:09 Gorsameth wrote:On November 23 2020 01:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 01:38 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2020 01:26 Magic Powers wrote:
The point I was trying to make is simply that it's not helpful to say "you're ignorant" in response to their concerns, be those concerns valid or not. It's not helpful to be condescending towards people, and neither is it helpful to claim to "have the facts" while others don't. Information needs to be fluid in this fight against the coronavirus, and we need to be open to all arising issues. To just dismiss other people's experience and call it negligible compared to the suffering the virus itself causes isn't helpful.
What we need is more communication. This way of talking to people shuts down communication. There are certain things that need more communication and there are facts that need to be agreed upon. You can not have a discussion on math if someone believes 1+1=3 and is unwilling to have this questioned or corrected. It ends up with confusing, fighting, and more anger than if it never happened. Also, people get tired and with less patience as the same illogical and untrue arguments get posted over and over and always end up the same without factual backing. But if we want people to understand, I think treating them like they're stupid or ignorant is not the right way. We don't need to treat this like an us-against-them situation, that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy then. "They" don't learn? Well, maybe it's because we don't treat them like they can learn. Ultimately everyone thinks what they do is right, for their own reasons. Also, who says we're always right about everything? If we're wrong about something, but we're convinced that we're right because "we have the facts", that would make us no better than anyone else. The truth is, information changes, and we don't know everything, so we need to be open to new information, even and especially that which we don't like to hear. And for some people this is even a simple matter of morality. For some people, preventing someone from seeing their loved ones because of a virus is strictly wrong. You can disagree with that if you like. But we shouldn't act condescendingly towards those people. They care about their family and friends first, there's nothing wrong with that. Moralities inevitably clash. That's not neccessarily a reason to become hostile. I care about my family and friends. That is why I am ok with no visiting them for a year so that I don't have to go to their funeral. Surely caring about them involves not wanting them to get sick? And we're 9-11 months into this. The time where people were not condescending was half a year ago. After spending half a year telling people to stop partying and just wear a mask I don't fault them for being condescending when yet another person comes by saying that the evil government should just let them get on with their lives. Maybe it's easy for us to say that our governments aren't being tyrannical, because so far they've been respecting our rights. Fears of a tyranny aren't exactly unfounded - on any side if I may say so. The virus will go away eventually because we have the means to fight it. It's much harder to bring a tyranny to an end. Just ask the people of Hong Kong or East Germany. Then the matter of opinion would be how likely a tyranny is to result out of this. Well? Who us knows the answer to that? I sure don't. Right now I can only hope that I can keep my freedoms. But knowing what my government is capable of, I'm really not sure. Maybe you can see why this is all not so simple and straight forward? You go from "the economy must stay open at all costs" to "I care about my loved ones" and now "We must fight Tyranny" Oo. How, what? What? Why are you suddenly now talking about the Austrian government using the pandemic as a cover for instituting a tyranny? I thought we were talking about the economic consequences of Covid. I didn't say this will lead to a tyranny though? I'm describing how a train of thought can easily lead there. And I think it should be a constant worry of all citizens (especially during a crisis, as most tyrannies arise out of that). But the point in the context of this conversation wasn't that I suspect a tyranny is going to come. The point is that we shouldn't be dismissive of other people's opinions just because we happen to disagree, regardless of how valid we think our stance is, or how invalid theirs.
Ordinarily yes, but "I don't mind killing people so long as I can have gatherings and eat at restaurants" is kind of hard to be civil about. Likewise "wearing a mask on my face is too much hardship for me" during a time when hospitals are overflowing with the sick and the dying. It's just hard to witness such selfishness coming from adults, and to listen to the elaborate justifications they make up to save face.
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On November 23 2020 03:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 02:37 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 02:09 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2020 01:53 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 01:38 JimmiC wrote:On November 23 2020 01:26 Magic Powers wrote:
The point I was trying to make is simply that it's not helpful to say "you're ignorant" in response to their concerns, be those concerns valid or not. It's not helpful to be condescending towards people, and neither is it helpful to claim to "have the facts" while others don't. Information needs to be fluid in this fight against the coronavirus, and we need to be open to all arising issues. To just dismiss other people's experience and call it negligible compared to the suffering the virus itself causes isn't helpful.
What we need is more communication. This way of talking to people shuts down communication. There are certain things that need more communication and there are facts that need to be agreed upon. You can not have a discussion on math if someone believes 1+1=3 and is unwilling to have this questioned or corrected. It ends up with confusing, fighting, and more anger than if it never happened. Also, people get tired and with less patience as the same illogical and untrue arguments get posted over and over and always end up the same without factual backing. But if we want people to understand, I think treating them like they're stupid or ignorant is not the right way. We don't need to treat this like an us-against-them situation, that's just a self-fulfilling prophecy then. "They" don't learn? Well, maybe it's because we don't treat them like they can learn. Ultimately everyone thinks what they do is right, for their own reasons. Also, who says we're always right about everything? If we're wrong about something, but we're convinced that we're right because "we have the facts", that would make us no better than anyone else. The truth is, information changes, and we don't know everything, so we need to be open to new information, even and especially that which we don't like to hear. And for some people this is even a simple matter of morality. For some people, preventing someone from seeing their loved ones because of a virus is strictly wrong. You can disagree with that if you like. But we shouldn't act condescendingly towards those people. They care about their family and friends first, there's nothing wrong with that. Moralities inevitably clash. That's not neccessarily a reason to become hostile. Very few are prevented from seeing their loved ones. This is just one of the strawman. It eventually might get to this point, or you need to see them at a small distance. The issue is people make all sorts of excuses for why things need to be completely normal, and they can't be because it is a pandemic. If people are really against lockdowns, then the logical position is to be really for the measures that prevent lockdowns. If you are against both than you have a very illogical position. That is not condescending that is fact. People need to stop being offended when they find out they are acting in a illogical and in this case dangerous way and instead really think about the why. My family is spread out over two countries (previously three), I haven't been able to visit some of them since the first lockdown. This is not a "strawman"... I'm against unreasonable lockdowns, but I'm also against an unreasonably lax approach. Keyword "unreasonable". My country went too far in both directions, and as a result I still can't see all of my family. Forgive me for not enjoying the way our overlords are deciding to rule over us. I guess no one has facetime? Telephones? How often do you see you family in other countries normally? There is no way to make everyone happy or have it be the best decision for everyone. All that the "overlords" can do is try to make the best decisions they can for the most that they can. If you want whatever your point is to land better, be specific about what was done wrong, when it was done wrong and what should have been done differently and why.
I didn't think I'd need to explain why calling or facetiming is not even remotely comparable to seeing people in real life. Especially when already prior to the outbreak I was only able to see them a few times a year tops. Do I have to explain why it's not comparable? I really don't want to.
As to your other request: I thought I explained already what I think my government did wrong? They always over- or under-reacted, never once did they take a balanced and smart approach or even attempt to communicate with the people properly. They could've done much less severe lockdowns if they had taken good precautions prior to the second wave, they were either too lazy or too inept to plan ahead properly. The experts all agreed that a second wave would come and that it needed preparation, but our leaders stuck their heads in the sand until it was too late. Now we're in a heavy lockdown, which isn't gonna go well for us. They could've spoken to business owners about preventative measures and taken surveys about people's experience during and after the first lockdown. Either they didn't do that or they didn't follow up on it, as the result clearly shows. Maybe they were arrogant because we outperformed most countries during the first wave, I don't know.
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On November 23 2020 02:37 Magic Powers wrote:
My family is spread out over two countries (previously three), I haven't been able to visit some of them since the first lockdown. This is not a "strawman"...
I'm against unreasonable lockdowns, but I'm also against an unreasonably lax approach. Keyword "unreasonable". My country went too far in both directions, and as a result I still can't see all of my family. Forgive me for not enjoying the way our overlords are deciding to rule over us.
On November 23 2020 03:17 Magic Powers wrote:
I didn't say this will lead to a tyranny though? I'm describing how a train of thought can easily lead there. And I think it should be a constant worry of all citizens (especially during a crisis, as most tyrannies arise out of that).
But the point in the context of this conversation wasn't that I suspect a tyranny is going to come. The point is that we shouldn't be dismissive of other people's opinions just because we happen to disagree, regardless of how valid we think our stance is, or how invalid theirs.
You’re the angel on the shoulder of Europeans in this thread.
The toleration of dissent and discourse on when politicians go overboard is necessary to get compliance. All the moral lecturing is twice as counterproductive as the lecturers might even guess. Treat your families like I treat mine, you’re basically in favor of killing people, all default moral rightness lies in the actions of elected or appointed positions.
Seriously, best of luck with your second wave and I hope you can see your family soon.
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EPT
