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No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons.
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On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons.
The internal inconsistency contained within this single post is astounding, for someone so keen on pointing out that this is not a black and white issue, you sure seem certain that government acts are singularly responsible for the economic harms facing everyone. That's not only stupid and unprovable, it's exactly the kind of black and white thinking you claim to decry.
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On November 23 2020 00:17 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. The internal inconsistency contained within this single post is astounding, for someone so keen on pointing out that this is not a black and white issue, you sure seem certain that government acts are singularly responsible for the economic harms facing everyone. That's not only stupid and unprovable, it's exactly the kind of black and white thinking you claim to decry.
First of all I didn't put all the blame on the governments. Where did I say politicians are the only ones with fault? I'm saying they carry a lot of the fault.
And now we should just all pretend that they know what they're doing? And that everything's gonna be fine?
Back in January we had known cases of covid-19 from the border in my country. Do you know what the government did? Do you think they closed the border? Consult any virologists on what to do? Do voluntary testing in the area?
The answer is: none of the above. It was business as usual. Two people were quarantined, travel at that area was shut down for exactly one day, and international travel continued uninterrupted.
Prior to those infections, our government already knew that there was a new and dangerous virus going around in other countries. They could've stopped international travel right then and there, but they didn't.
And that was just my government. Many others acted practically the same.
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On November 23 2020 00:04 Magic Powers wrote:
There are many thousands, or rather millions of jobs being lost. Untold amounts of people are struggling to even keep food on the table. More parents than in a very long time don't know how to keep their kids fed and healthy. Most parents, when you ask them, just want to get a job. They want financial security, and they know only having a job can provide that for them. But far too many can't find one right now because of the restrictions on businesses, or businesses having to file for bankruptcy, especially smaller ones. There are many jobs that will be lost permanently. Many careers flushed down the drain, dreams shattered, and even basic neccessities are becoming hard to come by for many people.
And here you are telling people to "make a small sacrifice". How old are you even?
Hmm.
Sounds like a good reason for Congress to pass sweeping stimulus and financial support like other peer countries have done.
This shouldn't be a choice between economics and health. Crises like this are precisely what the government is here for.
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons.
No it doesn't and this is some disgustingly immoral, ingrained capitalist dogma.
The economy isn't any kind of moral virtue. It is an abstract concept that is an analogue for people's well-being. That is what matters when talking about any social or economic issue. The well-being of people. As I mentioned, this shouldn't be a choice between the economy and people's lives. Other countries have proven that economic stimulus and support is possible.
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On November 23 2020 00:27 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:17 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. The internal inconsistency contained within this single post is astounding, for someone so keen on pointing out that this is not a black and white issue, you sure seem certain that government acts are singularly responsible for the economic harms facing everyone. That's not only stupid and unprovable, it's exactly the kind of black and white thinking you claim to decry. First of all I didn't put all the blame on the governments. Where did I say politicians are the only ones with fault? I'm saying they carry a lot of the fault. And now we should just all pretend that they know what they're doing? And that everything's gonna be fine? Back in January we had known cases of covid-19 from the border in my country. Do you know what the government did? Do you think they closed the border? Consult any virologists on what to do? Do voluntary testing in the area? The answer is: none of the above. It was business as usual. Two people were quarantined, travel at that area was shut down for exactly one day, and international travel continued uninterrupted. Prior to those infections, our government already knew that there was a new and dangerous virus going around in other countries. They could've stopped international travel right then and there, but they didn't. And that was just my government. Many others acted practically the same.
You said:
On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
That's black and white bullshit and you know it, parsing the economic consequences of pandemic mitigation measures requires stable inferences as to what the economy would look like sans measures, which are not available in any shape or form. You and the others decrying the government have never wrestled with this fact, likely because you simply cannot.
Instead, you've created a fantasy world in which less strict measures were implemented and the economy is somehow magically better off. That's nonsense.
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On November 23 2020 00:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:04 Magic Powers wrote:
There are many thousands, or rather millions of jobs being lost. Untold amounts of people are struggling to even keep food on the table. More parents than in a very long time don't know how to keep their kids fed and healthy. Most parents, when you ask them, just want to get a job. They want financial security, and they know only having a job can provide that for them. But far too many can't find one right now because of the restrictions on businesses, or businesses having to file for bankruptcy, especially smaller ones. There are many jobs that will be lost permanently. Many careers flushed down the drain, dreams shattered, and even basic neccessities are becoming hard to come by for many people.
And here you are telling people to "make a small sacrifice". How old are you even? Hmm. Sounds like a good reason for Congress to pass sweeping stimulus and financial support like other peer countries have done. This shouldn't be a choice between economics and health. Crises like this are precisely what the government is here for.
They have passed those. People who receive them are already struggling to put food on the table despite that. Some of them quite unexpectedly, as they were previously middle class. We can't give everyone enough money so they can get by forever, that's simply not how it works. The stimulus checks aren't creating any new value, they're a money sink. People lost their jobs, they don't have a source of income, and they're frozen out of the economy for many months.
Money runs out very fast when large economic sectors are suddenly closed.
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On November 23 2020 00:35 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:27 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:17 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. The internal inconsistency contained within this single post is astounding, for someone so keen on pointing out that this is not a black and white issue, you sure seem certain that government acts are singularly responsible for the economic harms facing everyone. That's not only stupid and unprovable, it's exactly the kind of black and white thinking you claim to decry. First of all I didn't put all the blame on the governments. Where did I say politicians are the only ones with fault? I'm saying they carry a lot of the fault. And now we should just all pretend that they know what they're doing? And that everything's gonna be fine? Back in January we had known cases of covid-19 from the border in my country. Do you know what the government did? Do you think they closed the border? Consult any virologists on what to do? Do voluntary testing in the area? The answer is: none of the above. It was business as usual. Two people were quarantined, travel at that area was shut down for exactly one day, and international travel continued uninterrupted. Prior to those infections, our government already knew that there was a new and dangerous virus going around in other countries. They could've stopped international travel right then and there, but they didn't. And that was just my government. Many others acted practically the same. You said: Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses. That's black and white bullshit and you know it, parsing the economic consequences of pandemic mitigation measures requires stable inferences as to what the economy would look like sans measures, which are not available in any shape or form. You and the others decrying the government have never wrestled with this fact, likely because you simply cannot. Instead, you've created a fantasy world in which less strict measures were implemented and the economy is somehow magically better off. That's nonsense.
The virus didn't shut any businesses down, that was because of government mandates. For a while they reopened them (wanna know why? Because people need an income), and now they're closed again.
Was the virus suddenly gone during that period when the government allowed businesses to reopen? No, it wasn't.
So why are you saying that something other than the government put restrictions on businesses?
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On November 23 2020 00:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:04 Magic Powers wrote:
There are many thousands, or rather millions of jobs being lost. Untold amounts of people are struggling to even keep food on the table. More parents than in a very long time don't know how to keep their kids fed and healthy. Most parents, when you ask them, just want to get a job. They want financial security, and they know only having a job can provide that for them. But far too many can't find one right now because of the restrictions on businesses, or businesses having to file for bankruptcy, especially smaller ones. There are many jobs that will be lost permanently. Many careers flushed down the drain, dreams shattered, and even basic neccessities are becoming hard to come by for many people.
And here you are telling people to "make a small sacrifice". How old are you even? Hmm. Sounds like a good reason for Congress to pass sweeping stimulus and financial support like other peer countries have done. This shouldn't be a choice between economics and health. Crises like this are precisely what the government is here for. Show nested quote +No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. No it doesn't and this is some disgustingly immoral, ingrained capitalist dogma. The economy isn't any kind of moral virtue. It is an abstract concept that is an analogue for people's well-being. That is what matters when talking about any social or economic issue. The well-being of people. As I mentioned, this shouldn't be a choice between the economy and people's lives. Other countries have proven that economic stimulus and support is possible.
When the economy crashes, everything collapses. People will run out of money to buy food and clothes, to pay their utility bills, to receive medical care, and so on.
The economy is not some invention of the mind, it's tangible and it runs literally everything. Without the economy we have nothing at all.
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On November 23 2020 00:40 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:35 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:27 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:17 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. The internal inconsistency contained within this single post is astounding, for someone so keen on pointing out that this is not a black and white issue, you sure seem certain that government acts are singularly responsible for the economic harms facing everyone. That's not only stupid and unprovable, it's exactly the kind of black and white thinking you claim to decry. First of all I didn't put all the blame on the governments. Where did I say politicians are the only ones with fault? I'm saying they carry a lot of the fault. And now we should just all pretend that they know what they're doing? And that everything's gonna be fine? Back in January we had known cases of covid-19 from the border in my country. Do you know what the government did? Do you think they closed the border? Consult any virologists on what to do? Do voluntary testing in the area? The answer is: none of the above. It was business as usual. Two people were quarantined, travel at that area was shut down for exactly one day, and international travel continued uninterrupted. Prior to those infections, our government already knew that there was a new and dangerous virus going around in other countries. They could've stopped international travel right then and there, but they didn't. And that was just my government. Many others acted practically the same. You said: On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses. That's black and white bullshit and you know it, parsing the economic consequences of pandemic mitigation measures requires stable inferences as to what the economy would look like sans measures, which are not available in any shape or form. You and the others decrying the government have never wrestled with this fact, likely because you simply cannot. Instead, you've created a fantasy world in which less strict measures were implemented and the economy is somehow magically better off. That's nonsense. The virus didn't shut any businesses down, that was because of government mandates. For a while they reopened them (wanna know why? Because people need an income), and now they're closed again. Was the virus suddenly gone during that period when the government allowed businesses to reopen? No, it wasn't. So why are you saying that something other than the government put restrictions on businesses?
TIL that businesses succeed purely because they are open rather than closed. That's just more black and white logic, thank you for demonstrating how little you've thought your position through.
(this stale argument has literally been had out in this thread likely a dozen times at this point, why is it that the outrage machine posters never seem to have read prior posts, hmmmmmmmm)
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On November 23 2020 00:43 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:40 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:35 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:27 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:17 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. The internal inconsistency contained within this single post is astounding, for someone so keen on pointing out that this is not a black and white issue, you sure seem certain that government acts are singularly responsible for the economic harms facing everyone. That's not only stupid and unprovable, it's exactly the kind of black and white thinking you claim to decry. First of all I didn't put all the blame on the governments. Where did I say politicians are the only ones with fault? I'm saying they carry a lot of the fault. And now we should just all pretend that they know what they're doing? And that everything's gonna be fine? Back in January we had known cases of covid-19 from the border in my country. Do you know what the government did? Do you think they closed the border? Consult any virologists on what to do? Do voluntary testing in the area? The answer is: none of the above. It was business as usual. Two people were quarantined, travel at that area was shut down for exactly one day, and international travel continued uninterrupted. Prior to those infections, our government already knew that there was a new and dangerous virus going around in other countries. They could've stopped international travel right then and there, but they didn't. And that was just my government. Many others acted practically the same. You said: On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses. That's black and white bullshit and you know it, parsing the economic consequences of pandemic mitigation measures requires stable inferences as to what the economy would look like sans measures, which are not available in any shape or form. You and the others decrying the government have never wrestled with this fact, likely because you simply cannot. Instead, you've created a fantasy world in which less strict measures were implemented and the economy is somehow magically better off. That's nonsense. The virus didn't shut any businesses down, that was because of government mandates. For a while they reopened them (wanna know why? Because people need an income), and now they're closed again. Was the virus suddenly gone during that period when the government allowed businesses to reopen? No, it wasn't. So why are you saying that something other than the government put restrictions on businesses? TIL that businesses succeed purely because they are open rather than closed. That's just more black and white logic, thank you for demonstrating how little you've thought your position through. (this stale argument has literally been had out in this thread likely a dozen times at this point, why is it that the outrage machine posters never seem to have read prior posts, hmmmmmmmm)
I'm interested in your reasoning. How does a business stay afloat when it's closed?
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On November 23 2020 00:46 JimmiC wrote:
You are so set on blaming the symptoms instead of the cause and then claim other people are insulting you or being condescending when they point out facts.
The places that have shutdown is because of their ICU reaching capacity. Can you not see that having a virus run wild that overfills your ICU would be not just bad from a human life standpoint, but also from a economy standpoint?
You are spending huge extra money on healthcare (bad for economy), you are losing workers to sick days (bad for economy), you are losing productivity do to depression and grief (bad for economy), people are not going to spend as much because they don't feel safe (bad for economy).
You can make a logical argument that Governments should be more forceful with their mask and social distancing rules to make sure that there is no requirement for a shutdown. But why people with you have no logic to fall back on is you are against both things that stop the spread, and what needs to happen when spread gets out of control
I don't know why you think I disagree with any of the things you said in this comment. There's not one thing I disagree with.
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On November 23 2020 00:40 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:35 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:27 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:17 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. The internal inconsistency contained within this single post is astounding, for someone so keen on pointing out that this is not a black and white issue, you sure seem certain that government acts are singularly responsible for the economic harms facing everyone. That's not only stupid and unprovable, it's exactly the kind of black and white thinking you claim to decry. First of all I didn't put all the blame on the governments. Where did I say politicians are the only ones with fault? I'm saying they carry a lot of the fault. And now we should just all pretend that they know what they're doing? And that everything's gonna be fine? Back in January we had known cases of covid-19 from the border in my country. Do you know what the government did? Do you think they closed the border? Consult any virologists on what to do? Do voluntary testing in the area? The answer is: none of the above. It was business as usual. Two people were quarantined, travel at that area was shut down for exactly one day, and international travel continued uninterrupted. Prior to those infections, our government already knew that there was a new and dangerous virus going around in other countries. They could've stopped international travel right then and there, but they didn't. And that was just my government. Many others acted practically the same. You said: On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses. That's black and white bullshit and you know it, parsing the economic consequences of pandemic mitigation measures requires stable inferences as to what the economy would look like sans measures, which are not available in any shape or form. You and the others decrying the government have never wrestled with this fact, likely because you simply cannot. Instead, you've created a fantasy world in which less strict measures were implemented and the economy is somehow magically better off. That's nonsense. The virus didn't shut any businesses down, that was because of government mandates. For a while they reopened them (wanna know why? Because people need an income), and now they're closed again. Was the virus suddenly gone during that period when the government allowed businesses to reopen? No, it wasn't. So why are you saying that something other than the government put restrictions on businesses?
Iowa is a strong argument against what you’re saying. Tons of businesses had to lay people off because sales plummeted without any shut down. People act beyond what the government tells them to do
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On November 23 2020 00:46 JimmiC wrote:
You are so set on blaming the symptoms instead of the cause and then claim other people are insulting you or being condescending when they point out facts.
The places that have shutdown is because of their ICU reaching capacity. Can you not see that having a virus run wild that overfills your ICU would be not just bad from a human life standpoint, but also from a economy standpoint?
You are spending huge extra money on healthcare (bad for economy), you are losing workers to sick days (bad for economy), you are losing productivity do to depression and grief (bad for economy), people are not going to spend as much because they don't feel safe (bad for economy).
You can make a logical argument that Governments should be more forceful with their mask and social distancing rules to make sure that there is no requirement for a shutdown. But why people with you have no logic to fall back on is you are against both things that stop the spread, and what needs to happen when spread gets out of control
This just goes to show how acutely difficult the work of public health officials can be, especially in our time of unrestrained skepticism detached from any deference to expertise. Health officials have to do their best to avoid worst case scenarios that, once avoided, are impossible to concretely define, yet armchair warriors who pray to Mammon as their god are oh so certain that everything would be much better had those nosey stupid doctors just let people spread disease willy nilly. Tacitly supporting the notion that overflowing ERs and healthcare workers are acceptable sacrifices to Mammon should be obviously immoral and unacceptable, yet here we are.
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On November 23 2020 00:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:43 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:On November 23 2020 00:04 Magic Powers wrote:
There are many thousands, or rather millions of jobs being lost. Untold amounts of people are struggling to even keep food on the table. More parents than in a very long time don't know how to keep their kids fed and healthy. Most parents, when you ask them, just want to get a job. They want financial security, and they know only having a job can provide that for them. But far too many can't find one right now because of the restrictions on businesses, or businesses having to file for bankruptcy, especially smaller ones. There are many jobs that will be lost permanently. Many careers flushed down the drain, dreams shattered, and even basic neccessities are becoming hard to come by for many people.
And here you are telling people to "make a small sacrifice". How old are you even? Hmm. Sounds like a good reason for Congress to pass sweeping stimulus and financial support like other peer countries have done. This shouldn't be a choice between economics and health. Crises like this are precisely what the government is here for. No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. No it doesn't and this is some disgustingly immoral, ingrained capitalist dogma. The economy isn't any kind of moral virtue. It is an abstract concept that is an analogue for people's well-being. That is what matters when talking about any social or economic issue. The well-being of people. As I mentioned, this shouldn't be a choice between the economy and people's lives. Other countries have proven that economic stimulus and support is possible. When the economy crashes, everything collapses. People will run out of money to buy food and clothes, to pay their utility bills, to receive medical care, and so on. The economy is not some invention of the mind, it's tangible and it runs literally everything. Without the economy we have nothing at all. You have the faulty assumption that it would be better for the economy to have all businesses stay open once ICUs are full. Think through how that is going to impact the economy. They stay afloat though either their savings, moving their business model to local delivery, government assistance, rent deals with their landlord who don't want to lose all thier commercial renters and so on. No one here is saying lockdowns are good for businesses, it is just that some of realize that what is hurting the economy is the COVID spread and not the lockdown to stop the spread. You are basically a guy with a broken leg who is blaming the cast for not being able to walk and seemingly unaware that the cast is what is helping you heal you leg and stopping you from a much worse outcome.
You have the faulty assumption that it would be better for the economy to have all businesses stay open once ICUs are full.
No, I don't. For some reason you believe that I'm assuming that.
No one here is saying lockdowns are good for businesses, it is just that some of realize that what is hurting the economy is the COVID spread and not the lockdown to stop the spread.
The lockdown is the thing that's hurting the economy. The information the government has about the virus (or thinks it has) is driving the decision to do lockdowns. The virus itself is not driving that decision.
Look at South Korea. No major lockdowns. Cases have stayed down relatively well, the economy has been well protected.
Why can't our governments follow their lead? We don't even need to be like Taiwan, they're too much of a model nation in regards to viruses. South Korea wasn't prepared like Taiwan was, but they seem to be doing very well. They now have a surge of cases of course, just like most other countries, but very minimally so. They'll get it under control much better.
And that's because they have an extremely strong communication network between the government and the people and between people. They can keep lockdown measure to an absolute minimum, whereas other countries go completely overboard because they lack those communication skills. And why is that communication not happening?
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On November 23 2020 00:54 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2020 00:40 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:35 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:27 Magic Powers wrote:On November 23 2020 00:17 farvacola wrote:On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses.
You're acting as if this is as simple as just getting rid of the virus. It's not.
When push comes to shove, the economy has to come first. We can't pretend that we're all gonna be alright. There will be many casualties coming out of this that were not caused by the virus and that were preventable with a smarter response.
This strict adherence to government mandates is going to cost many people their careers, their health, and some even their lives. The suicide rates have already gone up.
This is not a black and white situation, and it's sad to see people treating others like they're stupid, when the truth is they're rapidly losing hope - and for very good reasons. The internal inconsistency contained within this single post is astounding, for someone so keen on pointing out that this is not a black and white issue, you sure seem certain that government acts are singularly responsible for the economic harms facing everyone. That's not only stupid and unprovable, it's exactly the kind of black and white thinking you claim to decry. First of all I didn't put all the blame on the governments. Where did I say politicians are the only ones with fault? I'm saying they carry a lot of the fault. And now we should just all pretend that they know what they're doing? And that everything's gonna be fine? Back in January we had known cases of covid-19 from the border in my country. Do you know what the government did? Do you think they closed the border? Consult any virologists on what to do? Do voluntary testing in the area? The answer is: none of the above. It was business as usual. Two people were quarantined, travel at that area was shut down for exactly one day, and international travel continued uninterrupted. Prior to those infections, our government already knew that there was a new and dangerous virus going around in other countries. They could've stopped international travel right then and there, but they didn't. And that was just my government. Many others acted practically the same. You said: On November 23 2020 00:14 Magic Powers wrote:
No, those economic consequences are due to the restrictions on businesses. The virus is not the reason. The governments are the reason. They think they know everything. But it's been clear from day one that they don't know everything, or even close to it. They shut the borders too late, they did not implement a smart solution to fight small clusters of the virus. Most governments are stupid and politicians are trying to save their asses. That's black and white bullshit and you know it, parsing the economic consequences of pandemic mitigation measures requires stable inferences as to what the economy would look like sans measures, which are not available in any shape or form. You and the others decrying the government have never wrestled with this fact, likely because you simply cannot. Instead, you've created a fantasy world in which less strict measures were implemented and the economy is somehow magically better off. That's nonsense. The virus didn't shut any businesses down, that was because of government mandates. For a while they reopened them (wanna know why? Because people need an income), and now they're closed again. Was the virus suddenly gone during that period when the government allowed businesses to reopen? No, it wasn't. So why are you saying that something other than the government put restrictions on businesses? Iowa is a strong argument against what you’re saying. Tons of businesses had to lay people off because sales plummeted without any shut down. People act beyond what the government tells them to do
Because it's a chain reaction. The more people lose purchasing power due to losing their jobs, the more businesses lose customers, which again reduces purchasing power, which again loses businesses customers, etc. etc.
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