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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On April 21 2020 01:13 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2020 00:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 20 2020 23:32 Slydie wrote:I am taking the freedom of reposting this. Before advocating how we should stop the virus spread with any means possible and at any cost, it is a must read for a very credible source. Quarantines are extremely damaging, and should be kept as short and reasonable as possible: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltextOne of the points in this article is that quarantines lower than 10 days cause a lot less post traumatic stress disorders than ones over 10 days. Many countries lock large groups of people for more than a month, seemingly without knowing the consequences. Some will take 3 years to recover psychologically, and returning to normal life will be a impossible for many. Then there is of course also home violence, dysfunctional families trapped together, increased number of suicies etc. I don't think anyone would argue that there are no drawbacks or negatives attached to quarantines; it's simply that the benefits far, far, far outweigh the costs. Also, let's not pretend that it's the fault of a quarantine that domestic violence occurs. It's the specific fault of the harasser/ assaulter. If you can't live with your spouse for a few weeks without beating them, then you have serious issues and you shouldn't go around blaming a global pandemic. You also shouldn't be in a relationship. Very much this. I have every sympathy for folks who are losing work and having to navigate very harsh waters. For all I know that may include me down the line. I have very little sympathy for people who decided a pandemic was a great new excuse to try out for masking their damage.
Yeah. Having to shoulder a heavy burden of stress is one thing; having the outlet be verbal and physical abuse towards your family is another. You don't get a pass on child abuse or spousal abuse, just because times are tough.
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On April 21 2020 01:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2020 01:13 NewSunshine wrote:On April 21 2020 00:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 20 2020 23:32 Slydie wrote:I am taking the freedom of reposting this. Before advocating how we should stop the virus spread with any means possible and at any cost, it is a must read for a very credible source. Quarantines are extremely damaging, and should be kept as short and reasonable as possible: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltextOne of the points in this article is that quarantines lower than 10 days cause a lot less post traumatic stress disorders than ones over 10 days. Many countries lock large groups of people for more than a month, seemingly without knowing the consequences. Some will take 3 years to recover psychologically, and returning to normal life will be a impossible for many. Then there is of course also home violence, dysfunctional families trapped together, increased number of suicies etc. I don't think anyone would argue that there are no drawbacks or negatives attached to quarantines; it's simply that the benefits far, far, far outweigh the costs. Also, let's not pretend that it's the fault of a quarantine that domestic violence occurs. It's the specific fault of the harasser/ assaulter. If you can't live with your spouse for a few weeks without beating them, then you have serious issues and you shouldn't go around blaming a global pandemic. You also shouldn't be in a relationship. Very much this. I have every sympathy for folks who are losing work and having to navigate very harsh waters. For all I know that may include me down the line. I have very little sympathy for people who decided a pandemic was a great new excuse to try out for masking their damage. Yeah. Having to shoulder a heavy burden of stress is one thing; having the outlet be verbal and physical abuse towards your family is another. You don't get a pass on child abuse or spousal abuse, just because times are tough.
I mean, that is so easy to say but honestly, I've had it rather easy in my life so far - not that I'm withough my own suitcase of stuff lol -, it can be really hard to stay calm if you feel everything and everyone is against you.
Imagine a screaming toddler or ill wee child that cannot but bring more distress in the situation.
Being on the fringe of society and blamed for the incapacity to deal with this incredible situation, I think it is difficult to blame soley the violent agent. Imo it might be described as similar to, albeit not equal to with victim blaming.
It's not an excuse but rather a possible explanation maybe?
idk, I'd love to hear you guys' opinion on that.
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On April 21 2020 01:25 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2020 01:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 21 2020 01:13 NewSunshine wrote:On April 21 2020 00:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 20 2020 23:32 Slydie wrote:I am taking the freedom of reposting this. Before advocating how we should stop the virus spread with any means possible and at any cost, it is a must read for a very credible source. Quarantines are extremely damaging, and should be kept as short and reasonable as possible: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltextOne of the points in this article is that quarantines lower than 10 days cause a lot less post traumatic stress disorders than ones over 10 days. Many countries lock large groups of people for more than a month, seemingly without knowing the consequences. Some will take 3 years to recover psychologically, and returning to normal life will be a impossible for many. Then there is of course also home violence, dysfunctional families trapped together, increased number of suicies etc. I don't think anyone would argue that there are no drawbacks or negatives attached to quarantines; it's simply that the benefits far, far, far outweigh the costs. Also, let's not pretend that it's the fault of a quarantine that domestic violence occurs. It's the specific fault of the harasser/ assaulter. If you can't live with your spouse for a few weeks without beating them, then you have serious issues and you shouldn't go around blaming a global pandemic. You also shouldn't be in a relationship. Very much this. I have every sympathy for folks who are losing work and having to navigate very harsh waters. For all I know that may include me down the line. I have very little sympathy for people who decided a pandemic was a great new excuse to try out for masking their damage. Yeah. Having to shoulder a heavy burden of stress is one thing; having the outlet be verbal and physical abuse towards your family is another. You don't get a pass on child abuse or spousal abuse, just because times are tough. I mean, that is so easy to say but honestly, I've had it rather easy in my life so far - not that I'm withough my own suitcase of stuff lol -, it can be really hard to stay calm if you feel everything and everyone is against you. Imagine a screaming toddler or ill wee child that cannot but bring more distress in the situation. Being on the fringe of society and blamed for the incapacity to deal with this incredible situation, I think it is difficult to blame soley the violent agent. Imo it might be described as similar to, albeit not equal to with victim blaming. It's not an excuse but rather a possible explanation maybe? idk, I'd love to hear you guys' opinion on that.
What I'm hearing is that we teachers deserve to be paid millions of dollars every year, because we can handle not one, not two, but upwards of 20 or more children at the same... and by "handle 20 children at the same time", I not only mean "not punch them in the face", but also educate them on a variety of topics.
I mean yeah, no one is thrilled and everyone is stressed, but parents know that babies cry and toddlers scream. That comes with the territory. Sure, it makes things worse, but there needs to be a line drawn between what is and what is not acceptable parenting (or relationshipping). Abuse, both legally and morally, is not okay.
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@Artisreal, I don't think you were the only one.
I mean, we have all bore pretty heavily down on the people who cited preexisting conditions to explain away the corona deaths, and I kind of agreed with that, so let's not employ that logic in the other cases.
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Nah, I’d rather not employ logic that equivocates medical cause of death with socio-economic mortality factors. Asserting that the logic used to analyze the two is similar enough to be viably transitive is itself a leap that needn’t be made.
COVID-19 and its relation to pre-existing conditions as they relate to formal cause of death determinations =\= COVID-19 mitigation tactics and their relation to other causes of harm/death.
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Is it really a matter of assigning blame to deaths influenced or caused by maximum lockdowns? It really sounds like deaths from depression or psychological stress or domestic violence is over-readily dismissed. Speaking particularly about the prior page of posts.
It’s a major argument in maybe 2 weeks to a month that localities should relax lockdown requirements in favor of masks, social distancing, partial lockdown for seniors. People who have lost their job in industries that will take months to recover and worry about providing for their families are seriously concerned about lockdowns extending for another full month. And this isn’t really the place to talk about political failures in top-down aid.
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On April 21 2020 00:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 23:32 Slydie wrote:I am taking the freedom of reposting this. Before advocating how we should stop the virus spread with any means possible and at any cost, it is a must read for a very credible source. Quarantines are extremely damaging, and should be kept as short and reasonable as possible: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltextOne of the points in this article is that quarantines lower than 10 days cause a lot less post traumatic stress disorders than ones over 10 days. Many countries lock large groups of people for more than a month, seemingly without knowing the consequences. Some will take 3 years to recover psychologically, and returning to normal life will be a impossible for many. Then there is of course also home violence, dysfunctional families trapped together, increased number of suicies etc. I don't think anyone would argue that there are no drawbacks or negatives attached to quarantines; it's simply that the benefits far, far, far outweigh the costs. Also, let's not pretend that it's the fault of a quarantine that domestic violence occurs. It's the specific fault of the harasser/ assaulter. If you can't live with your spouse for a few weeks without beating them, then you have serious issues and you shouldn't go around blaming a global pandemic. You also shouldn't be in a relationship.
that's victim blaming what you're doing there. Of course ideally nobody would be in a situation where they live with their abuser together but should we just say "Well, your fault - sucks but get over it"?
Also kids don't get to choose their parents.
that's like letting people die who have bad lungs due to smoking because it's "their fault""
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He’s literally blaming the abuser, not the victim...
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On April 21 2020 03:55 farvacola wrote:
He’s literally blaming the abuser, not the victim...
Exactly lol.
On April 21 2020 03:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2020 00:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 20 2020 23:32 Slydie wrote:I am taking the freedom of reposting this. Before advocating how we should stop the virus spread with any means possible and at any cost, it is a must read for a very credible source. Quarantines are extremely damaging, and should be kept as short and reasonable as possible: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltextOne of the points in this article is that quarantines lower than 10 days cause a lot less post traumatic stress disorders than ones over 10 days. Many countries lock large groups of people for more than a month, seemingly without knowing the consequences. Some will take 3 years to recover psychologically, and returning to normal life will be a impossible for many. Then there is of course also home violence, dysfunctional families trapped together, increased number of suicies etc. I don't think anyone would argue that there are no drawbacks or negatives attached to quarantines; it's simply that the benefits far, far, far outweigh the costs. Also, let's not pretend that it's the fault of a quarantine that domestic violence occurs. It's the specific fault of the harasser/ assaulter. If you can't live with your spouse for a few weeks without beating them, then you have serious issues and you shouldn't go around blaming a global pandemic. You also shouldn't be in a relationship. that's victim blaming what you're doing there. Of course ideally nobody would be in a situation where they live with their abuser together but should we just say "Well, your fault - sucks but get over it"? Also kids don't get to choose their parents. that's like letting people die who have bad lungs due to smoking because it's "their fault""
No, I'm assigning blame to the actual abuser, and not just using coronavirus as a scapegoat. If there are victims and perpetrators of domestic violence and child abuse, we need to identify who they are and figure out the best way for everyone involved to get the support they need. That is absolutely *not* the same as a blanket lifting of quarantine, which involves schools reopening, businesses reopening, and the death toll skyrocketing.
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On April 21 2020 02:01 Danglars wrote:
Is it really a matter of assigning blame to deaths influenced or caused by maximum lockdowns? It really sounds like deaths from depression or psychological stress or domestic violence is over-readily dismissed. Speaking particularly about the prior page of posts.
It’s a major argument in maybe 2 weeks to a month that localities should relax lockdown requirements in favor of masks, social distancing, partial lockdown for seniors. People who have lost their job in industries that will take months to recover and worry about providing for their families are seriously concerned about lockdowns extending for another full month. And this isn’t really the place to talk about political failures in top-down aid.
It’s a little difficult to keep politics out of this subject, but I’ll try my best:
In recent times I’ve seen concern about increased suicide rates brought up almost exclusively by people arguing for ending/relaxing lockdown measures to save the economy. I don’t think we can ignore the intentions here; people in that position are frequently facing criticism over their willingness to sacrifice coronavirus deaths in the name of GDP, so it’s pretty obvious how useful suicides are as a deflection. In non-pandemic times, you probably won’t see those people arguing for, say, greater public support for mental health services (or any other public interventions that might reduce suicide). Such a person’s timing in deciding suicide prevention should be a top priority is a little too convenient.
But let’s put that skepticism aside for a moment, and inspect the argument on its merits. Catastrophes and natural disasters actually sometimes decrease suicide rates, at least in the short term (I can look up a source in a few minutes if desired (Edit: source)). As I understand it, is that some kind of “pulling together” public mentality in the face of adversity is probably the cause. Long-term, natural disasters probably increase suicide rates due to things like PTSD.
To the extent we have a choice between saving lives and increasing GDP (and to a significant extent, I think that choice is a false one), I don’t think it’s at all clear that suicide is increased more by the recession than it is by the deaths. Those people dying often have families, and often do not get to say goodbye due to contagion concerns.
TL;DR: I think the “longer quarantine increases suicide!” argument is mostly deflection, but considered on its merits I think the causal link is pretty weak.
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On April 21 2020 03:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2020 03:55 farvacola wrote:
He’s literally blaming the abuser, not the victim... Exactly lol. Show nested quote +On April 21 2020 03:45 Charoisaur wrote:On April 21 2020 00:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 20 2020 23:32 Slydie wrote:I am taking the freedom of reposting this. Before advocating how we should stop the virus spread with any means possible and at any cost, it is a must read for a very credible source. Quarantines are extremely damaging, and should be kept as short and reasonable as possible: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltextOne of the points in this article is that quarantines lower than 10 days cause a lot less post traumatic stress disorders than ones over 10 days. Many countries lock large groups of people for more than a month, seemingly without knowing the consequences. Some will take 3 years to recover psychologically, and returning to normal life will be a impossible for many. Then there is of course also home violence, dysfunctional families trapped together, increased number of suicies etc. I don't think anyone would argue that there are no drawbacks or negatives attached to quarantines; it's simply that the benefits far, far, far outweigh the costs. Also, let's not pretend that it's the fault of a quarantine that domestic violence occurs. It's the specific fault of the harasser/ assaulter. If you can't live with your spouse for a few weeks without beating them, then you have serious issues and you shouldn't go around blaming a global pandemic. You also shouldn't be in a relationship. that's victim blaming what you're doing there. Of course ideally nobody would be in a situation where they live with their abuser together but should we just say "Well, your fault - sucks but get over it"? Also kids don't get to choose their parents. that's like letting people die who have bad lungs due to smoking because it's "their fault"" No, I'm assigning blame to the actual abuser, and not just using coronavirus as a scapegoat. If there are victims and perpetrators of domestic violence and child abuse, we need to identify who they are and figure out the best way for everyone involved to get the support they need. That is absolutely *not* the same as a blanket lifting of quarantine, which involves schools reopening, businesses reopening, and the death toll skyrocketing.
yeah sorry I misread. Of course it's the abusers fault at first and the quarantine isn't an excuse for them at all but it's still a fact that the quarantine exacerbates the DV problem.
Not sure how realistic it is to get all of the victims the support they need though.
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On April 21 2020 04:36 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2020 02:01 Danglars wrote:
Is it really a matter of assigning blame to deaths influenced or caused by maximum lockdowns? It really sounds like deaths from depression or psychological stress or domestic violence is over-readily dismissed. Speaking particularly about the prior page of posts.
It’s a major argument in maybe 2 weeks to a month that localities should relax lockdown requirements in favor of masks, social distancing, partial lockdown for seniors. People who have lost their job in industries that will take months to recover and worry about providing for their families are seriously concerned about lockdowns extending for another full month. And this isn’t really the place to talk about political failures in top-down aid. It’s a little difficult to keep politics out of this subject, but I’ll try my best: In recent times I’ve seen concern about increased suicide rates brought up almost exclusively by people arguing for ending/relaxing lockdown measures to save the economy. I don’t think we can ignore the intentions here; people in that position are frequently facing criticism over their willingness to sacrifice coronavirus deaths in the name of GDP, so it’s pretty obvious how useful suicides are as a deflection. In non-pandemic times, you probably won’t see those people arguing for, say, greater public support for mental health services (or any other public interventions that might reduce suicide). Such a person’s timing in deciding suicide prevention should be a top priority is a little too convenient. But let’s put that skepticism aside for a moment, and inspect the argument on its merits. Catastrophes and natural disasters actually sometimes decrease suicide rates, at least in the short term (I can look up a source in a few minutes if desired (Edit: source)). As I understand it, is that some kind of “pulling together” public mentality in the face of adversity is probably the cause. Long-term, natural disasters probably increase suicide rates due to things like PTSD. To the extent we have a choice between saving lives and increasing GDP (and to a significant extent, I think that choice is a false one), I don’t think it’s at all clear that suicide is increased more by the recession than it is by the deaths. Those people dying often have families, and often do not get to say goodbye due to contagion concerns. TL;DR: I think the “longer quarantine increases suicide!” argument is mostly deflection, but considered on its merits I think the causal link is pretty weak.
I don't think it takes a genius to figure out people losing their jobs/apartments or being in isolation for months takes a toll on the mental health and mental health is directly correlated to suicides...
You're free to stick your fingers in the ears and disagree though if you don't want to believe that.
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On April 21 2020 04:36 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2020 02:01 Danglars wrote:
Is it really a matter of assigning blame to deaths influenced or caused by maximum lockdowns? It really sounds like deaths from depression or psychological stress or domestic violence is over-readily dismissed. Speaking particularly about the prior page of posts.
It’s a major argument in maybe 2 weeks to a month that localities should relax lockdown requirements in favor of masks, social distancing, partial lockdown for seniors. People who have lost their job in industries that will take months to recover and worry about providing for their families are seriously concerned about lockdowns extending for another full month. And this isn’t really the place to talk about political failures in top-down aid. It’s a little difficult to keep politics out of this subject, but I’ll try my best: In recent times I’ve seen concern about increased suicide rates brought up almost exclusively by people arguing for ending/relaxing lockdown measures to save the economy. I don’t think we can ignore the intentions here; people in that position are frequently facing criticism over their willingness to sacrifice coronavirus deaths in the name of GDP, so it’s pretty obvious how useful suicides are as a deflection. In non-pandemic times, you probably won’t see those people arguing for, say, greater public support for mental health services (or any other public interventions that might reduce suicide). Such a person’s timing in deciding suicide prevention should be a top priority is a little too convenient. But let’s put that skepticism aside for a moment, and inspect the argument on its merits. Catastrophes and natural disasters actually sometimes decrease suicide rates, at least in the short term (I can look up a source in a few minutes if desired (Edit: source)). As I understand it, is that some kind of “pulling together” public mentality in the face of adversity is probably the cause. Long-term, natural disasters probably increase suicide rates due to things like PTSD. To the extent we have a choice between saving lives and increasing GDP (and to a significant extent, I think that choice is a false one), I don’t think it’s at all clear that suicide is increased more by the recession than it is by the deaths. Those people dying often have families, and often do not get to say goodbye due to contagion concerns. TL;DR: I think the “longer quarantine increases suicide!” argument is mostly deflection, but considered on its merits I think the causal link is pretty weak.
To start, I value you sincerely stated opinion. I also think there's a minority of crazies getting extra attention from the media's desire for outrage clicks. I can't say those don't exist, or that might affect someone's perspective on who it is taking these positions.. At the same time, I think the balance lies on the other side of the lockdown debate, with people relatively more shielded from its affects less concerned about the deleterious affects of lockdowns extending to the end of may or midjune, whether that's in industries that can work from home, people having better paying jobs and more savings, people not forced onto crashed unemployment websites and poorly administrated welfare programs, and people whose support networks extend beyond the immediate household subject to quarantine provisions. To that extent, it becomes a question of what class of people will be forced to accept the downside to extensive lockdown regimes vs phased relaxation only after multiple studies showing causation, vs which ones make (what I see as) common sense conclusions regarding low income and marginalized communities with lost jobs, older dependents directly reliant on them, and very little hope of seeing immediate job recovery after lockdown ceases. But even beginning there, it's a political discussion that should be taken in a separate thread after the immediate craziness ends. One or two other of your points mainly bring up my political disagreements with what you're saying, so I must entirely omit them.
Other disclaimers I should also include: I'm not suggesting that an immediate 100% reversal of all <<6-10ft social distancing recommendations, parties <10, wearing of masks in stores, sequestering of aged and people with concerning health problems>> is an acceptable counter-position to full lockdown. I'm also not suggesting that people who really focus on the mortality rate aren't suspect to some degree in the sense Christian makes.
On April 21 2020 06:39 r00ty wrote:
I appreciate the newfound awareness of deep social economic problems in general.
Since you're probably referring to the topic of deducing unawareness of "deep social economic problems" from advocacy of certain political stances, I'll leave you be.
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I appreciate the newfound awareness of deep social economic problems in general.
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On April 21 2020 05:50 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2020 06:39 r00ty wrote:
I appreciate the newfound awareness of deep social economic problems in general. Since you're probably referring to the topic of deducing unawareness of "deep social economic problems" from advocacy of certain political stances, I'll leave you be.
And you're most welcome to do so, because this wasn't directed at anyone and i refuse to engage in tribalism, to keep it simple.
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Suicides, domestic abuse are effects of quarantines which are difficult to justify, but I still think the big story is actually the mass psychological stress and illness which comes with it. Being quarentined myself, reading the article I went yup-yup-yup-yup for the different possible sympthoms listed. Some of them for myself, others from people I talk to.
Also, being in a situation like that can make you a much worse parent, partner or other family member, so some abuse will be a consequence of the quarantine itself.
Yes, reading about 500-2500 people dying every day in your country is very scary too, and will be part of the slow recovery process after this. However, that most of those are 80+ (edit: in some areas), and many would not have had many years left anyway is often undercommunicated. The main focus should always be if the hostpitals are about to be overwhelmed or not.
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On April 21 2020 08:13 Slydie wrote:
Suicides, domestic abuse are effects of quarantines which are difficult to justify, but I still think the big story is actually the mass psychological stress and illness which comes with it. Being quarentined myself, reading the article I went yup-yup-yup-yup for the different possible sympthoms listed. Some of them for myself, others from people I talk to.
Also, being in a situation like that can make you a much worse parent, partner or other family member, so some abuse will be a consequence of the quarantine itself.
Yes, reading about 500-2500 people dying every day in your country is very scary too, and will be part of the slow recovery process after this. However, that most of those are 80+, and many would not have had many years left anyway is often undercommunicated. The main focus should always be if the hostpitals are about to be overwhelmed or not.
To be fair though, some of those "symptoms" are super common in normal everyday life. You could diagnose yourself based on that article just as easily as you could be convinced you will meet the love of your life this week based on the horoscope in a glossy magazine.
I'm not saying there won't be psychological problems in people that are caused by the quarantine. I question how many are caused by the quarantine per se and not just by stress because a particularly contagious virus is ripping through society and making us worry for loved ones, friends, and random politicians/celebrities. They are hard to separate right now. That said, as someone who generally spends at least 1 out of any 2 weekends outdoors in the mountains or on the sea, this quarantine sucks. But I am quite okay suffering through this shit if it saves lives... and given the horrific situation in Spain, I am thoroughly convinced the lockdown is 99% of why it is now under control... and that definitely saves lives.
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EPT
