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On April 20 2020 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On April 20 2020 20:39 farvacola wrote:
Isn't it curious that folks who want to highlight the negative effects of shelter in place orders in service of establishing that "the cure is worse than the disease" do their best to avoid mentioning any of the incidental positives (ya know, like significant, across the board reductions in traffic and workplace accidents, to name two)? Instead, we get vague gestures towards suicide that have no basis in fact and sudden flip flop domestic violence service advocacy that was interestingly never a priority before the 'rona. Hmmm. It almost reads like an excuse to me. People aren't buying the whole "sacrifice your lives for the Great God, Economy" thing, so now people everywhere are resorting to all kinds of violence and suicide because they have to stay home. I don't know about you folks. I'm pretty comfy staying in my apartment. All the folks complaining about how keeping people at home will incite civil war or some shit, need to bear in mind that if we had any response on the national level whatsoever, our curve might've been flattened to any extent, and we could think about keeping more shit open. But The Cheeto didn't do shit. Calling us the king of ventilators doesn't fucking count. We did nothing for months after learning about it's dangers and are flabbergasted that it got this bad. Are you serious? Are you actually saying suicides and domestic violence aren't a problem because you're comfy staying in your apartment and it doesn't affect you? Or don't you believe the lockdown leads to that?
Not at all. I just choose to think the people actually getting sick and dying from the pandemic have things a little bit worse than someone who had to miss out on their yearly get-together.
I say that as someone who did just that.
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On April 20 2020 21:55 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:On April 20 2020 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On April 20 2020 20:39 farvacola wrote:
Isn't it curious that folks who want to highlight the negative effects of shelter in place orders in service of establishing that "the cure is worse than the disease" do their best to avoid mentioning any of the incidental positives (ya know, like significant, across the board reductions in traffic and workplace accidents, to name two)? Instead, we get vague gestures towards suicide that have no basis in fact and sudden flip flop domestic violence service advocacy that was interestingly never a priority before the 'rona. Hmmm. It almost reads like an excuse to me. People aren't buying the whole "sacrifice your lives for the Great God, Economy" thing, so now people everywhere are resorting to all kinds of violence and suicide because they have to stay home. I don't know about you folks. I'm pretty comfy staying in my apartment. All the folks complaining about how keeping people at home will incite civil war or some shit, need to bear in mind that if we had any response on the national level whatsoever, our curve might've been flattened to any extent, and we could think about keeping more shit open. But The Cheeto didn't do shit. Calling us the king of ventilators doesn't fucking count. We did nothing for months after learning about it's dangers and are flabbergasted that it got this bad. Are you serious? Are you actually saying suicides and domestic violence aren't a problem because you're comfy staying in your apartment and it doesn't affect you? Or don't you believe the lockdown leads to that? Not at all. I just choose to think the people actually getting sick and dying from the pandemic have things a little bit worse than someone who had to miss out on their yearly get-together. I say that as someone who did just that.
Nobody is talking about missing their yearly get-together though.
Millions of people are losing their jobs and domestic violence increasing is a fact. No idea why you think of it as an excuse.
You can google that for yourself if you don't believe that.
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On April 20 2020 21:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 21:55 NewSunshine wrote:On April 20 2020 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:On April 20 2020 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On April 20 2020 20:39 farvacola wrote:
Isn't it curious that folks who want to highlight the negative effects of shelter in place orders in service of establishing that "the cure is worse than the disease" do their best to avoid mentioning any of the incidental positives (ya know, like significant, across the board reductions in traffic and workplace accidents, to name two)? Instead, we get vague gestures towards suicide that have no basis in fact and sudden flip flop domestic violence service advocacy that was interestingly never a priority before the 'rona. Hmmm. It almost reads like an excuse to me. People aren't buying the whole "sacrifice your lives for the Great God, Economy" thing, so now people everywhere are resorting to all kinds of violence and suicide because they have to stay home. I don't know about you folks. I'm pretty comfy staying in my apartment. All the folks complaining about how keeping people at home will incite civil war or some shit, need to bear in mind that if we had any response on the national level whatsoever, our curve might've been flattened to any extent, and we could think about keeping more shit open. But The Cheeto didn't do shit. Calling us the king of ventilators doesn't fucking count. We did nothing for months after learning about it's dangers and are flabbergasted that it got this bad. Are you serious? Are you actually saying suicides and domestic violence aren't a problem because you're comfy staying in your apartment and it doesn't affect you? Or don't you believe the lockdown leads to that? Not at all. I just choose to think the people actually getting sick and dying from the pandemic have things a little bit worse than someone who had to miss out on their yearly get-together. I say that as someone who did just that. Nobody is talking about missing their yearly get-together though. Millions of people are losing their jobs and domestic violence increasing is a fact. No idea why you think of it as an excuse. You can google that for yourself if you don't believe that.
I'm not saying I don't believe it. I'm saying it's still an excuse, being used in service of the argument that the country needs to reopen, and that we should all pretend things are normal, and cause thousands upon thousands more to die from otherwise preventable causes. This isn't a joke. Folks like to think America is special, and exempt from the things that other nations have achieved, well now we can rejoice in that distinction. We dragged our feet on responding to it, and because of that things are going to get yet worse before they get better. Domestic violence is a concern, but people choose to be violent. They don't choose to contract a virus and die.
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On April 20 2020 22:06 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 21:59 Charoisaur wrote:On April 20 2020 21:55 NewSunshine wrote:On April 20 2020 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:On April 20 2020 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On April 20 2020 20:39 farvacola wrote:
Isn't it curious that folks who want to highlight the negative effects of shelter in place orders in service of establishing that "the cure is worse than the disease" do their best to avoid mentioning any of the incidental positives (ya know, like significant, across the board reductions in traffic and workplace accidents, to name two)? Instead, we get vague gestures towards suicide that have no basis in fact and sudden flip flop domestic violence service advocacy that was interestingly never a priority before the 'rona. Hmmm. It almost reads like an excuse to me. People aren't buying the whole "sacrifice your lives for the Great God, Economy" thing, so now people everywhere are resorting to all kinds of violence and suicide because they have to stay home. I don't know about you folks. I'm pretty comfy staying in my apartment. All the folks complaining about how keeping people at home will incite civil war or some shit, need to bear in mind that if we had any response on the national level whatsoever, our curve might've been flattened to any extent, and we could think about keeping more shit open. But The Cheeto didn't do shit. Calling us the king of ventilators doesn't fucking count. We did nothing for months after learning about it's dangers and are flabbergasted that it got this bad. Are you serious? Are you actually saying suicides and domestic violence aren't a problem because you're comfy staying in your apartment and it doesn't affect you? Or don't you believe the lockdown leads to that? Not at all. I just choose to think the people actually getting sick and dying from the pandemic have things a little bit worse than someone who had to miss out on their yearly get-together. I say that as someone who did just that. Nobody is talking about missing their yearly get-together though. Millions of people are losing their jobs and domestic violence increasing is a fact. No idea why you think of it as an excuse. You can google that for yourself if you don't believe that. I'm not saying I don't believe it. I'm saying it's still an excuse, being used in service of the argument that the country needs to reopen, and that we should all pretend things are normal, and cause thousands upon thousands more to die from otherwise preventable causes. This isn't a joke. Folks like to think America is special, and exempt from the things that other nations have achieved, well now we can rejoice in that distinction. We dragged our feet on responding to it, and because of that things are going to get yet worse before they get better. Domestic violence is a concern, but people choose to be violent. They don't choose to contract a virus and die.
My fiancée is a legal aid attorney who reps DV victims, so it hits close to home for us when people start trotting out ongoing social problems as sudden priorities when folks never batted an eye previously. It’s also very telling that folks would rather open things up and try to go back to normal, rather than address the insecurities that underlie DV in the first instance (like shoring up the safety net and guaranteeing access to essentials). It’s all very convenient.
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I should also point out that I'm very privileged to be able to work from home throughout all of this. Not all of the employees at my company get to do so, and many will probably lose their jobs anyway. Forget about companies that just can't work at all right now. I have a deep level of sympathy for these people. A lot of folks aren't going to be able to keep paying rent, and a piddly $1200 check isn't gonna last folks 4 weeks, let alone 10. Our response to this pandemic has been nothing short of a disaster, and it angers me to no end that the rich and powerful have just been using it as one more opportunity to line their pockets at our expense. In light of all of that, you'll forgive me if I think the DV argument reeks of victim blaming.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 20 2020 22:23 JimmiC wrote:
Is there any evidence that this makes DV worse? Perhaps people already committing it are doing it more since they are home more, but I don't think staying home turns a non asshole into a wife beater? And even frequency is pretty doubtful.
This just seems like a case of people trying to say reasons that they think others will find moving. If anyone has any thing other than anecdotal evidence I'd take a look.
I'm also unsure on the suicide rates, but I guess won't know that until later. I know that councilors are now doing there sessions through video conference and that there are people who are visiting seniors and other people stuck alone with "porch chats" and so on. I get what used to be a daily and is now every 3-4 days on our cities response and I have not heard of DV or Suicides being an increased concern.
Maybe people being at home en masse are reporting it more?
Also I have to agree with the one who mentioned - nobody cared, but suddenly now they care. Some social groups were rising in suicides before the COVID, no one really cared and since COVID everybody cares. I don't know, to me it seems doubtful at best.
I would love to be wrong and people honestly caring about these subjects but somehow I cannot believe theat.
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It isn't just about the additional time at home. There are a lot of factors at play. You have lots of additional stress because of money problems and job loss, childcare at home is a big problem for many families because of time and energy required. Victims (especially children) are not having regular access to trusted overseeing persons outside the family, making cover-up way easier. Lots of regular places to get help are closed down, making escaping the problematic situation harder for victims.
The rise is documented for a lot of places. A simple google search should be enough. Here is a Guardian article
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On April 20 2020 22:37 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 22:23 JimmiC wrote:
Is there any evidence that this makes DV worse? Perhaps people already committing it are doing it more since they are home more, but I don't think staying home turns a non asshole into a wife beater? And even frequency is pretty doubtful.
This just seems like a case of people trying to say reasons that they think others will find moving. If anyone has any thing other than anecdotal evidence I'd take a look.
I'm also unsure on the suicide rates, but I guess won't know that until later. I know that councilors are now doing there sessions through video conference and that there are people who are visiting seniors and other people stuck alone with "porch chats" and so on. I get what used to be a daily and is now every 3-4 days on our cities response and I have not heard of DV or Suicides being an increased concern. Maybe people being at home en masse are reporting it more? Also I have to agree with the one who mentioned - nobody cared, but suddenly now they care. Some social groups were rising in suicides before the COVID, no one really cared and since COVID everybody cares. I don't know, to me it seems doubtful at best. I would love to be wrong and people honestly caring about these subjects but somehow I cannot believe theat.
What makes you think nobody cared? For most people there just isn't anything they can do about it so you don't hear a lot of that but that doesn't mean nobody cares about it.
That's like me saying why do you suddenly about people dying because of a the virus but never cared about people dying because of the flu.
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On April 20 2020 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 21:48 NewSunshine wrote:On April 20 2020 20:39 farvacola wrote:
Isn't it curious that folks who want to highlight the negative effects of shelter in place orders in service of establishing that "the cure is worse than the disease" do their best to avoid mentioning any of the incidental positives (ya know, like significant, across the board reductions in traffic and workplace accidents, to name two)? Instead, we get vague gestures towards suicide that have no basis in fact and sudden flip flop domestic violence service advocacy that was interestingly never a priority before the 'rona. Hmmm. It almost reads like an excuse to me. People aren't buying the whole "sacrifice your lives for the Great God, Economy" thing, so now people everywhere are resorting to all kinds of violence and suicide because they have to stay home. I don't know about you folks. I'm pretty comfy staying in my apartment. All the folks complaining about how keeping people at home will incite civil war or some shit, need to bear in mind that if we had any response on the national level whatsoever, our curve might've been flattened to any extent, and we could think about keeping more shit open. But The Cheeto didn't do shit. Calling us the king of ventilators doesn't fucking count. We did nothing for months after learning about it's dangers and are flabbergasted that it got this bad. Are you serious? Are you actually saying suicides and domestic violence aren't a problem because you're comfy staying in your apartment and it doesn't affect you? Or don't you believe the lockdown leads to that?
Violence doesn't come from being in close quarters with your partner.
Violence, immensely and incompletely simplified, comes from being frustrated / cornered / disadvantaged / pressured / insecure in life and needing an outlet.
Suicides happen not because of lockdown, but because people are "broken" (according to the prevalent capitalist system) for some reason apart from the lockdown.
I think this is a very important discussion. So I would really like to know what you think in light of the arguments made here, that DV is not a problem of the lockdown.
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Right, the lockdown absolutely exacerbates a ton of stressors faced by people from all walks of life, but reopening things, especially too quickly, does nothing to actually address those stressors in the first place. No longer being “trapped at home” (which is a dubious claim relative to the lockdown given that many DV victims will continue to be trapped by other things) will not solve the problems that generate DV in the first place.
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After two months, the CDC will *start* tracking Covid19 cases and deaths in nursing homes...
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/19/trump-nursing-homes-covid-coronavirus-195589
“As we reopen the United States, our surveillance effort around the Covid virus will also begin in nursing homes,"
Yes, you read well. "our effort will BEGIN". I'm appalled.
Meanwhile, several newspapers had to sue DeSantis to even get the names of nursing homes where there were cases. The amount of cases and fatalities in these homes are still secret.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article242114926.html
My guess is that it's the same in a lot of other places across the USA, where these private businesses don't want to reveal the situation and put themselves in a bad light. Even some families can't get the information if the home where their family members are have cases or not...
I wonder if we will get complete numbers at any point in time.
But hey, complaining about China hiding numbers is a bit rich in this case, isn't it ? I'm waiting the "but these are private businesses, they have a right to privacy !" as a defense. If at any point I see any families complaining about NDAs forbidding them to reveal if a home has cases or not, I'm going to lose my shit.
I mean, having issues gathering numbers due to unpreparedness is one thing, it took us nearly a month to start reporting, but purposefully hiding numbers for the sake of business ? Hell no !
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I am taking the freedom of reposting this. Before advocating how we should stop the virus spread with any means possible and at any cost, it is a must read for a very credible source. Quarantines are extremely damaging, and should be kept as short and reasonable as possible:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltext
One of the points in this article is that quarantines lower than 10 days cause a lot less post traumatic stress disorders than ones over 10 days. Many countries lock large groups of people for more than a month, seemingly without knowing the consequences. Some will take 3 years to recover psychologically, and returning to normal life will be a impossible for many.
Then there is of course also home violence, dysfunctional families trapped together, increased number of suicies etc.
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On April 20 2020 23:24 Nouar wrote:After two months, the CDC will *start* tracking Covid19 cases and deaths in nursing homes... https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/19/trump-nursing-homes-covid-coronavirus-195589Show nested quote +“As we reopen the United States, our surveillance effort around the Covid virus will also begin in nursing homes," Yes, you read well. "our effort will BEGIN". I'm appalled. Meanwhile, several newspapers had to sue DeSantis to even get the names of nursing homes where there were cases. The amount of cases and fatalities in these homes are still secret. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article242114926.htmlMy guess is that it's the same in a lot of other places across the USA, where these private businesses don't want to reveal the situation and put themselves in a bad light. Even some families can't get the information if the home where their family members are have cases or not... I wonder if we will get complete numbers at any point in time. But hey, complaining about China hiding numbers is a bit rich in this case, isn't it ? I'm waiting the "but these are private businesses, they have a right to privacy !" as a defense. If at any point I see any families complaining about NDAs forbidding them to reveal if a home has cases or not, I'm going to lose my shit. I mean, having issues gathering numbers due to unpreparedness is one thing, it took us nearly a month to start reporting, but purposefully hiding numbers for the sake of business ? Hell no ! Oh boy yeah 'begin' is a very scary word here.
A quick google check says that other countries are reporting around 50% of deaths coming from nursing homes, so it could be double the amount of deaths in the US?
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Are you saying that most people who will have serious mental health issues or be affected by domestic violence already had problems with that before the quarantine started? In what way does it differ from saying that most people who die of corona had preexisting health conditions that prevented their recovery?
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On April 20 2020 23:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 23:24 Nouar wrote:After two months, the CDC will *start* tracking Covid19 cases and deaths in nursing homes... https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/19/trump-nursing-homes-covid-coronavirus-195589“As we reopen the United States, our surveillance effort around the Covid virus will also begin in nursing homes," Yes, you read well. "our effort will BEGIN". I'm appalled. Meanwhile, several newspapers had to sue DeSantis to even get the names of nursing homes where there were cases. The amount of cases and fatalities in these homes are still secret. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article242114926.htmlMy guess is that it's the same in a lot of other places across the USA, where these private businesses don't want to reveal the situation and put themselves in a bad light. Even some families can't get the information if the home where their family members are have cases or not... I wonder if we will get complete numbers at any point in time. But hey, complaining about China hiding numbers is a bit rich in this case, isn't it ? I'm waiting the "but these are private businesses, they have a right to privacy !" as a defense. If at any point I see any families complaining about NDAs forbidding them to reveal if a home has cases or not, I'm going to lose my shit. I mean, having issues gathering numbers due to unpreparedness is one thing, it took us nearly a month to start reporting, but purposefully hiding numbers for the sake of business ? Hell no ! Oh boy yeah 'begin' is a very scary word here. A quick google check says that other countries are reporting around 50% of deaths coming from nursing homes, so it could be double the amount of deaths in the US?
Probably not to that extent. We have around 33% deaths from nursing homes here and I believe we finally got the complete backlog tally. Plus some nursing homes probably reported already. But I'm still unsure, because the CDC official data says 37k deaths for now. If they report this amount without having started to gather data from nursing homes ?... It will hurt.
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On April 20 2020 23:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 23:24 Nouar wrote:After two months, the CDC will *start* tracking Covid19 cases and deaths in nursing homes... https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/19/trump-nursing-homes-covid-coronavirus-195589“As we reopen the United States, our surveillance effort around the Covid virus will also begin in nursing homes," Yes, you read well. "our effort will BEGIN". I'm appalled. Meanwhile, several newspapers had to sue DeSantis to even get the names of nursing homes where there were cases. The amount of cases and fatalities in these homes are still secret. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article242114926.htmlMy guess is that it's the same in a lot of other places across the USA, where these private businesses don't want to reveal the situation and put themselves in a bad light. Even some families can't get the information if the home where their family members are have cases or not... I wonder if we will get complete numbers at any point in time. But hey, complaining about China hiding numbers is a bit rich in this case, isn't it ? I'm waiting the "but these are private businesses, they have a right to privacy !" as a defense. If at any point I see any families complaining about NDAs forbidding them to reveal if a home has cases or not, I'm going to lose my shit. I mean, having issues gathering numbers due to unpreparedness is one thing, it took us nearly a month to start reporting, but purposefully hiding numbers for the sake of business ? Hell no ! Oh boy yeah 'begin' is a very scary word here. A quick google check says that other countries are reporting around 50% of deaths coming from nursing homes, so it could be double the amount of deaths in the US?
Are they beginning to track nursing home data specifically and separately or not counting nursing homes at all? Not going to suggest that all nursing homes are lawful good and reporting data properly, but Washington state was hit at a nursing home and those deaths were counted and major news. Seems incredibly unlikely that no nursing home data is being tracked so far at least in the entire US. Maybe just Florida so not double 37k at least.
Seems more like the government realized there were bad actors and made a regulation to force them to not be bad actors. Will be interesting to see how widespread of a problem it was though.
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On April 20 2020 23:32 Slydie wrote:I am taking the freedom of reposting this. Before advocating how we should stop the virus spread with any means possible and at any cost, it is a must read for a very credible source. Quarantines are extremely damaging, and should be kept as short and reasonable as possible: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltextOne of the points in this article is that quarantines lower than 10 days cause a lot less post traumatic stress disorders than ones over 10 days. Many countries lock large groups of people for more than a month, seemingly without knowing the consequences. Some will take 3 years to recover psychologically, and returning to normal life will be a impossible for many. Then there is of course also home violence, dysfunctional families trapped together, increased number of suicies etc.
I don't think anyone would argue that there are no drawbacks or negatives attached to quarantines; it's simply that the benefits far, far, far outweigh the costs.
Also, let's not pretend that it's the fault of a quarantine that domestic violence occurs. It's the specific fault of the harasser/ assaulter. If you can't live with your spouse for a few weeks without beating them, then you have serious issues and you shouldn't go around blaming a global pandemic. You also shouldn't be in a relationship.
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On April 21 2020 00:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 23:32 Slydie wrote:I am taking the freedom of reposting this. Before advocating how we should stop the virus spread with any means possible and at any cost, it is a must read for a very credible source. Quarantines are extremely damaging, and should be kept as short and reasonable as possible: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltextOne of the points in this article is that quarantines lower than 10 days cause a lot less post traumatic stress disorders than ones over 10 days. Many countries lock large groups of people for more than a month, seemingly without knowing the consequences. Some will take 3 years to recover psychologically, and returning to normal life will be a impossible for many. Then there is of course also home violence, dysfunctional families trapped together, increased number of suicies etc. I don't think anyone would argue that there are no drawbacks or negatives attached to quarantines; it's simply that the benefits far, far, far outweigh the costs. Also, let's not pretend that it's the fault of a quarantine that domestic violence occurs. It's the specific fault of the harasser/ assaulter. If you can't live with your spouse for a few weeks without beating them, then you have serious issues and you shouldn't go around blaming a global pandemic. You also shouldn't be in a relationship.
Very much this. I have every sympathy for folks who are losing work and having to navigate very harsh waters. For all I know that may include me down the line. Or folks who see a world increasingly on fire, are unable to see their loved ones, and are genuinely distressed in a very serious way. I'm very introverted, so I'm lucky there too. I have very little sympathy, however, for people who decided a pandemic was a great new excuse to try out for masking their damage.
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On April 20 2020 23:44 Gina wrote:
Are you saying that most people who will have serious mental health issues or be affected by domestic violence already had problems with that before the quarantine started? In what way does it differ from saying that most people who die of corona had preexisting health conditions that prevented their recovery?
I think this was directed at my post, right?
You raise a couple of interesting points here.
Shall we have a solidary health care system where there are no prerequisites for being treated? Or do we need a points based system where keeping fit an eating moderately and healthy stuff gives you better care because you did your part?
Without having the data, your comment regarding preexisting conditions can play out in 2 abbreviated ways in my opinion.
1) Most people live gluttonous and lazy, thus aqcuire diabetes, overweight, heart conditions
2) Most people live their lifes and at the end of it they will have some problems with the naturally decaying body.
So if case 1 is true, your argument might have some benefit, whereas looking at the age of the patients dying as well as entirely fit patients dying, I, personally would say that case 2 is more descriptive of what I see.
The above differentiation is important, because preexisting conditions because of age are not something you can really compensate for in most people, whereas not being a fucking dickhead and beat or even kill your partner and child out of sheer frustration is not something a healthy socienty should strife. And given that we're at this point, we can impact the life of those in danger by bringin in adequate funding to help them to first get out of this situation by renting hotels and second get away from their abuser.
So in sum, we can attribute the exacerbation of the occurence of DV to the lockdown. We attribute the lockdown to the spread of the coronavirus. We can also attribute the spread of the coronavirus to exacerbating the problem of people dying.
Everyone loses in the end.
Shall we now weigh the lockdown related deaths due to DV against people dying due to their self inflicted preexisting conditions? I think this is the wrong question. We have both means to improve the lifes of DV victims throughout the lockdown as well as save not only people with preexisting conditions, but also countless others as well as many PTSD cases in medical personell if we continue the lockdown in a smart way.
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