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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 10 2019 19:42 KT_Elwood wrote:
NRA has a single purpose, and many advocates. So everytime just a hint of gun control pops up, they blitz it.
But neither NRA or taiwan are topics in this thread.
I like to know how I can deal with my favourite games are made by a spineless boot licking company that was totally awesome and likeable before greedy crab people took over.
That's why it was an example of the approach. NRA actively writes their members to support their cause by writing to politicians. And they do it regularily, not when somebody is actively trying to ban guns. That was the point.
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So you suggest we form an organization that OVERWATCHes our beloved companies not to betray the values that formed the western societies the very ones they once helped to build their company and to sell us their goods and service? 
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Northern Ireland26152 Posts
On October 10 2019 19:42 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 19:28 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 19:17 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2019 16:57 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
If only all these people put all thsi effort to force their government to do something. But unfortunetally, we live in a time when people care more about Blizzard then their own politicians and what their own government does... How do you know they aren't? You might be surprised to hear this, but passionate gamers are not the only people living on this planet. There are plenty of overlap between gamers, and people who are passionate about politics. There are, however, also a lot of people out there who arent gamers and who's also not into politics. Check out the TL US politics thread and you'll see plenty of people caring about politics there, and that's probably the most consistently busiest thread on all of TL. Because it's the same as NRA vs anti-gun people?* How many changes have you seen? How many riots about the support of China vs HK have you seen? I didn't see any, I'm not saying they're not happening, all I'm saying is that I don't know about any. Yet there's e-outrage about Blizzard all over the western world. While the same western people don't care about their country support Saudi Arabia(e.g.). If there would be enough sustain outrage about such issues politicians would have to do something because otherwise they wouldn't be elected the next elections. But nothing's happening. *Now to the NRA vs anti-gun people. Anti-gun people are always outraged and asking changes 2 or 3 weeks after some massacre. And then nothing. NRA is active the whole year. So visually it seems that there's more pro-gun people and they're more persistent. Again, I don't know how many anti-gun people there are as there's nothing as nonNRA(or I don't know it), but changes didn't happen, did they? Which means that it works. TL, DR - to get changes you need to be persistent, ask politicians regularily, try to gather support from other people. Maybe it's my cynicism, but I believe majority of the outraged people don't care about their own politicians and their support of the unified China politic. I’d say it’s something that people latch on to because you can individually actually do something about it. Point taken about the power of sustained advocacy, most people I know are just completely disillusioned and beaten down about the mechanisms of enacting change, and understandably so. I feel for them, it's just that they're angry about a company without any real power. It's like being angry at the support person on the phone. While it helps you, personally, it won't change anything. (unless it's Valve where the support, at least the e-support, goes to everyone in the company, Gaben himself rarely included)
They’re a pretty big company nonetheless, and one that is actively looking to expand into China.
If they get burned by their Western audience, then they may alter course, perhaps other companies don’t follow this lead and the Chinese are forced to accept they can’t just strongarm in this manner and moderate themselves.
Of course, the blowback may die down, as if so often does and little of consequence may happen.
One can cancel their orders of products and tell the company exactly why they have done so, there’s a pretty direct mechanism of simultaneously hitting their bottom line, while also being unambiguous as to why they’ve lost that sale.
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When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
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This is going to hurt Blizzard and its deserved. It's a political move. It's a statement that money allways wins over morals by Blizzards Standards. I will not buy or use any Blizzard products until this is fixed. This aggression cannot stand, man.
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On October 10 2019 19:23 KT_Elwood wrote:
If living conditions for "ordinary young" people in Hong Kong are so bad, and china is so close and great and free, why won't they move there ?
Why do the "ordinary poor young" chose to protest ? Why do Hearthstoneplayers throw away 10.000s of Dollars to make a statement ?
ChuChuChu and CraigWT, it does not ad up.
You can move to wherever you want? You have to find a job, find a place to live bring your family etc. In fact many hk people, especially middle class or above who have more options to choose, are looking for immigration opportunities, my boss a typical hkese, haven’t be back to hk for 2 months and stay in mainland China. You really think we are not doing this? Or you know is just some people come out and say something, and you think that is what we all think, so naive and childish. Again, I live in hk and is a hk permanent citizen, don’t think you know much more I do about the real hk situation.
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On October 10 2019 19:17 jy_9876543210 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 18:50 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 18:33 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 18:18 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 17:50 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 17:35 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 17:17 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote:
As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact. Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work. Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment. Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots) Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple. Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you? “Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant. At very beginning, after the first march, government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough. So all hk people shall just listen to riots because they are dare to do the violence? Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people? Why you think our hk people support their appeal? Have you ever been to hk or recently visit hk? Why you think you know much more than our hk people ourselves about our will? You can claim that you have been living in HK for whatever many years and how much better you know about the citizens than me, while never showing any evidence, so after all it's all opinions. Even if you are a reporter from HK, you are still just part of the media, which is telling your point of view. "Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people?" The thing is simple: let everyone vote on "Do you agree on withdrawing the extradition bill" and see the result. Otherwise it's just personal opinion for both of us.
Yes, without a real vote, I cannot prove my statement for sure, but I read our local forum, the comments under local news everyday, and my colleagues are all upset about the riots. So I undoubtedly know much more than you about hk current situation. You want evidence? Why not you post a photo of where you are and I do the same? If you just think all the negative comments about hk protest are fake, you already lost your free mind and be a robot controlled by your media
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On October 10 2019 19:08 CraigWT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 18:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past. Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk.
"Oh no, the millions upon millions of people protesting human rights are making my personal life inconvenient. How dare they?"
You can't claim the protests and riots doesn't represent HK when double digit percentage of the population is out on the streets. It's one of the largest protests anywhere in the world. You not only don't get to say it, it's amazingly disrespectful to even claim as much. Their views matter as much as yours, probably more so because they are willing to do something about it while you whine on a forum about how you can't find any open restaurants.
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On October 10 2019 20:52 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 19:08 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 18:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past. Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk. "Oh no, the millions upon millions of people protesting human rights are making my personal life inconvenient. How dare they?" You can't claim the protests and riots doesn't represent HK when double digit percentage of the population is out on the streets. It's one of the largest protests anywhere in the world. You not only don't get to say it, it's amazingly disrespectful to even claim as much. Their views matter as much as yours, probably more so because they are willing to do something about it while you whine on a forum about how you can't find any open restaurants.
Double digit percentage? Where you get the info? When it is into the riots phase, as far as I know the number of protesters for a signal march never reach to 100k, which less than 2 percent of hk population (we have 7 million people). And I am the only one? Please read the entire thread that there is maybe 3-4 people have living experience in hk, and see their point of view. And if you are clever enough to use google translate, you can visit yahoo.hk hk01 news(two biggest local News provider) or our local forum discuss.com.hk to see real hkese comment about the riot. The world is not like what your media tells to you.
Again, I am not saying that PRC is right, extradition is right, and hk people are supporting extradition, I am saying that we are against their so called 5 appeals, their independence appeal, and their violent activities and put everyone into danger.
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People will be upset for a few days but eventually come back to the games. Blizzard knows this which is why it’s far more important to them to maintain strong relations with China.
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On October 10 2019 20:40 CraigWT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 19:17 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 18:50 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 18:33 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 18:18 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 17:50 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 17:35 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 17:17 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote:
As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact. Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work. Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment. Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots) Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple. Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you? “Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant. At very beginning, after the first march, government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough. So all hk people shall just listen to riots because they are dare to do the violence? Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people? Why you think our hk people support their appeal? Have you ever been to hk or recently visit hk? Why you think you know much more than our hk people ourselves about our will? You can claim that you have been living in HK for whatever many years and how much better you know about the citizens than me, while never showing any evidence, so after all it's all opinions. Even if you are a reporter from HK, you are still just part of the media, which is telling your point of view. "Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people?" The thing is simple: let everyone vote on "Do you agree on withdrawing the extradition bill" and see the result. Otherwise it's just personal opinion for both of us. Yes, without a real vote, I cannot prove my statement for sure, but I read our local forum, the comments under local news everyday, and my colleagues are all upset about the riots. So I undoubtedly know much more than you about hk current situation. You want evidence? Why not you post a photo of where you are and I do the same? If you just think all the negative comments about hk protest are fake, you already lost your free mind and be a robot controlled by your media
Nope, I never said they were fake.
And I just noticed that in the most recent news, it seems that the HK government decided to announce the withdrawal of the extradition bill on next Wednesday.
It's a starting point at least. But I believe that it would be much better if she did that back in June, when the protest was still peaceful.
Is it too late? Very likely.
Again I want to make it clear that I don't agree with violence on either side and hope that it ends peacefully. But at this point I don't think either side would take a step back.
It's like when the oil in your pot catches fire - you could have stopped the fire in the beginning by covering the pot with the lid, but you just sit there and let the entire kitchen burn, now the lid won't help.
I agree that the violence should stop, but also the government should be blamed for starting it and didn't react to it before it escalated. Now the entire city is the victim.
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On October 10 2019 21:09 CraigWT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 20:52 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 19:08 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 18:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past. Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk. "Oh no, the millions upon millions of people protesting human rights are making my personal life inconvenient. How dare they?" You can't claim the protests and riots doesn't represent HK when double digit percentage of the population is out on the streets. It's one of the largest protests anywhere in the world. You not only don't get to say it, it's amazingly disrespectful to even claim as much. Their views matter as much as yours, probably more so because they are willing to do something about it while you whine on a forum about how you can't find any open restaurants. Double digit percentage? Where you get the info? When it is into the riots phase, as far as I know the number of protesters for a signal march never reach to 100k, which less than 2 percent of hk population (we have 7 million people). And I am the only one? Please read the entire thread that there is maybe 3-4 people have living experience in hk, and see their point of view. And if you are clever enough to use google translate, you can visit yahoo.hk hk01 news(two biggest local News provider) or our local forum discuss.com.hk to see real hkese comment about the riot. The world is not like what your media tells to you. Again, I am not saying that PRC is right, extradition is right, and hk people are supporting extradition, I am saying that we are against their so called 5 appeals, their independence appeal, and their violent activities and put everyone into danger.
There were over a million protestors in the beginning. You can't just assume all of them immediately became unsympathetic to the cause once the riota broke out.
I would also appreciate it if you didn't assume anyone else doesn't understand the situation just because you fail to grasp it yourself.
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On October 10 2019 21:17 jy_9876543210 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 20:40 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 19:17 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 18:50 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 18:33 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 18:18 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 17:50 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 17:35 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 17:17 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 16:51 CraigWT wrote:
As a CHINESE Hong Kong citizen and who now lives in Hong Kong, I can tell you guys that the riots are seeking for the only purpose, which is the independence of Hong Kong, and in fact just some of hk citizens are holding this point of view (maybe 1/3, most of them are young people). For achieving their wish, they are destroying hk metro system, burn and destroy CHINESE banks, CHINESE national flags, beating mainland Chinese people or hk people who support the police. The commercial activity, tourism industry is totally broken, many of middle class and rich people are selling their property and preparing for immigration. It is 100% riot instead of peaceful protest. So I assume anyone who support this kind of activity shall support terrorism.
And also, every country have its own “political right”, like in the U.S, racist is the redline, in China territory is the redline, especially for those clear area (Taiwan is another issue, but hk is undoubtedly a part of China) . Yelling “free hk” to Chinese is the same with yelling “niggers are xxx” to American people (just an example no mean for offence), so when a guy comes out and say free hk or similar thing, relevant company must make a decision: respect Chinese “political right” or not.
And last but not least, the hk issue is not like what most of western people know, “a peaceful protest for seeking freedom” (at least not for now, maybe for the very beginning), and people shall make public comment or opinion after collecting some information and trying to know the fact. Well, the HK government had about half a year to withdraw this extradition bill. But they decided to just sit there and see it escalate, until it's turned into something else, so they can take next step and force the issue. I feel that they were expecting what's happening today. I don't agree with violence from either side, but I'd say that if the HK government really wants this to end in peace, first they should end the extradition bill as a starting point. And of course you'll say "it's useless now, the situation has completely changed blablabla..." but if you just assume that things won't work, you'll never do anything and of course nothing would work. Don’t you know the government have already done lots of amendments on the law to compromise? And do you know the initial reason for drafting the extradition bill? If you don’t I can tell you, it is because 2 years ago, a hk guy murdered another hk lady in Taiwan and fly back to hk, because no extradition bill between these two places, the guy is still get no punishment, and also many Chinese criminals are now living in hk and get no punishment. Now it is the riots are forcing the government to 100% listen to them and they don’t accept any compromise. (please know the fact not the majority of hk people are supporting the riots) Yeah of course, when the extradition bill was proposed, Taiwan government clearly claimed that even if the bill passes, they would not agree on extraditing the criminal at the cost of sacrificing the freedom in HongKong. So if the murder is the cause, there's no reason to move on and everything can go back to normal. The fact that HongKong government still wants to force it out tells that it's not that simple. Taiwan? Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC. And please try to know the entire storyline and their so called “5 appeal and no one less” and the response from the commissioner, besides the extradition, they ask the police release all arrested riots and punish the people who have the fight with them, and force the commissioner to resign. is it the freedom you support? They can do whatever they want and get no punishment and people against them shall get arrested? If the government agree all of their appeal, then what would you think the hk will be? When you feel unhappy about the government, you just walk into the street, fight against the police, burning shops and banks, and ask the government must listen to you? “Since Taiwan government now have really bad relationship with PRC, they will support anything that against PRC.” Well yeah now western government really have bad relationship with PRC, too, so people should support anything that's against PRC. What's the point? Why is so hard to admit that withdrawing (not amending) the extradition bill could have alleviated the situation and maybe even stopped it in the beginning? About the rest of the post, we were talking about "what started this protest and what could have been done to end it early" and you are again talking about "we can't do it now it's too late", which is totally irrelevant. At very beginning, after the first march, government already compromised and do the amendment, but riots think that is not enough. So all hk people shall just listen to riots because they are dare to do the violence? Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people? Why you think our hk people support their appeal? Have you ever been to hk or recently visit hk? Why you think you know much more than our hk people ourselves about our will? You can claim that you have been living in HK for whatever many years and how much better you know about the citizens than me, while never showing any evidence, so after all it's all opinions. Even if you are a reporter from HK, you are still just part of the media, which is telling your point of view. "Why you so believe that these riots stand for the majority of our hk people?" The thing is simple: let everyone vote on "Do you agree on withdrawing the extradition bill" and see the result. Otherwise it's just personal opinion for both of us. Yes, without a real vote, I cannot prove my statement for sure, but I read our local forum, the comments under local news everyday, and my colleagues are all upset about the riots. So I undoubtedly know much more than you about hk current situation. You want evidence? Why not you post a photo of where you are and I do the same? If you just think all the negative comments about hk protest are fake, you already lost your free mind and be a robot controlled by your media Nope, I never said they were fake. And I just noticed that in the most recent news, it seems that the HK government decide to announce the withdrawal of the extradition bill on next Wednesday. It's a starting point at least. But I believe that it would be much better if she did that back in June, when the protest was still peaceful. Is it too late? Very likely. Again I want to make it clear that I don't agree with violence on either side and hope that it ends peacefully. But at this point I don't think either side would take a step back. It's like when the oil in your pot catches fire - you could have stopped it in the beginning by covering the lid, but you just sit there and let the entire kitchen burn, now the lid won't help. I agree that the violence should stop, but also the government should be responsible for starting it and didn't react to it before it escalated. Now the entire city is the victim.
Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence, government have no response for their further appeal, and their violence become bigger and bigger, the august 3-5 was big days, the riots first time block the airport metro system and do the real damage to the city. augest 12, a bunch of people who against their appeal had a fight with them, the entire violence activity begins and become worse and worse now. So into this phase, just maybe tens of thousands of people are still very active, most of us are against with them.
So did the government do nothing? No, they did compromise, is it enough? I don’t know. Does the government have the responsibility? For sure. But these riots, they never make compromise, they are using violence to force the government to fully listen to them, which i totally disagree. And from beginning asking cease the extradition bill application process to now “independent hk, ask the police release the riots who have done serious violence to the city, their appeals lost justice also.
In the day 1, for sure the majority of hk citizen (including me, but I am satisfied with the first amendment) appreciate the spirit, but now we are against with them, in fact the riots now are different people from the people who participate the first demonstration (hopefully can give you a clearer understanding about the real thing happened in hk)
Besides, regarding to PRC attitude, PRC didn’t do many negative report at very beginning, PRC starts to be very negative when “free hk” slogan comes out. And zero tolerance since then. Both The mainland Chinese people and PRC government have very clear opinion on hk issue, as long as your appeal is not seeking independence, you can do whatever you want, it is the redline.
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On October 10 2019 21:26 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 21:09 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 20:52 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 19:08 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 18:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Must be news to the people living there, with their own government, their own laws, their own military that they aren't independent. That PRC does not recognise China, does not make Taiwan stop existing. But it doesn't matter in any case as your positon is that the people of Hong Kong should just roll over and accept that the People's Republic of China does not adhere to agreements.
And yes, for your information I have been to HK recently and have visited it many times in the past. Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk. "Oh no, the millions upon millions of people protesting human rights are making my personal life inconvenient. How dare they?" You can't claim the protests and riots doesn't represent HK when double digit percentage of the population is out on the streets. It's one of the largest protests anywhere in the world. You not only don't get to say it, it's amazingly disrespectful to even claim as much. Their views matter as much as yours, probably more so because they are willing to do something about it while you whine on a forum about how you can't find any open restaurants. Double digit percentage? Where you get the info? When it is into the riots phase, as far as I know the number of protesters for a signal march never reach to 100k, which less than 2 percent of hk population (we have 7 million people). And I am the only one? Please read the entire thread that there is maybe 3-4 people have living experience in hk, and see their point of view. And if you are clever enough to use google translate, you can visit yahoo.hk hk01 news(two biggest local News provider) or our local forum discuss.com.hk to see real hkese comment about the riot. The world is not like what your media tells to you. Again, I am not saying that PRC is right, extradition is right, and hk people are supporting extradition, I am saying that we are against their so called 5 appeals, their independence appeal, and their violent activities and put everyone into danger. There were over a million protestors in the beginning. You can't just assume all of them immediately became unsympathetic to the cause once the riota broke out. I would also appreciate it if you didn't assume anyone else doesn't understand the situation just because you fail to grasp it yourself.
Read my comment below, you will know more
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On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote:
Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence,
Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada.
Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
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On October 10 2019 21:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote:
Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence, Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things?
The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning.
So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
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On October 10 2019 22:24 CraigWT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 21:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote:
Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence, Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things? The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning. So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC).
Yes, agreed obviously HK citizens are overreacting. PRC can surely be trusted, its not like they have abducted people from HK before without any legal proof.
They have already done what you say they wouldn't do, just 100 times worse without even showing any proof or getting any approval. Sounds more like you have strong bias not the other way around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances
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On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote:
When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
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On October 10 2019 22:43 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 22:24 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 21:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote:
Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence, Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things? The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning. So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC). Yes, agreed obviously HK citizens are overreacting. PRC can surely be trusted, its not like they have abducted people from HK before without any legal proof. They have already done what you say they wouldn't do, just 100 times worse without even showing any proof or getting any approval. Sounds more like you have strong bias not the other way around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances
China is facing some problems for sure (Xi amended the constitution and gave him the chance to become a dictator), and he wants to build a flawless image, that’s the reason he did something to that bookstore since the bookstore wanted to publish a book which will damage his public image (please note that that timing was the most crucial period that Xi was seeking for support from the most ccp governor to approve the constitution amendment, and the opponents were stopping him), so it was a political compact rather than a simple control of freedom. As a hkese and Chinese, I am worried about the Chinese future for sure, but tbh, extradition will have like very little impact on ordinary hk citizen. If PRC really start officially control about the freedom of speech in hk, then it means Xi has become the real dictator, and all protest activities will be totally useless (we have to run away). Believe or not, CCP now have serious inner conflicts, many high level CCP governors are against Xi’s become the dictator, don’t think Chinese people are all brainwashed and love dictator, no we don’t.
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On October 10 2019 22:43 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 22:24 CraigWT wrote:On October 10 2019 21:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On October 10 2019 21:49 CraigWT wrote:
Let me tell you the storyline, mid of June when extradition bill news first come out, maybe over a million hk people come out and did a peaceful demonstration and after that the government did the amendment about the bill, then the early July maybe 100k -200k people do the first big protest and started limited violence, Canada extradites its citizens to the USA. This does not mean US laws are enforced in Canada. Can you explain how the extradition bill violates the rights of Hong Kong citizens and then how the amendment to the extradition bill changed things? The key issue is two things: 1. The commissioner has the right to decide if the criminal suspects shall be extradited, 2. What kind of crime shall be included in the extradition bill. Since commissioner always has close relationships with Beijing and hk people have no faith on Chinese legal system, so hk people worried that Beijing can arrest whoever they want as long as the hk people have ever visited the mainland China. Then amendment is made that only several serious kinds of crime are included, like murder rape robbery etc, what they worried like politic/economy crime are excluded, and also the evidence shall be checked by HK legal system. The amended one I think is fine. If you did such crime, you shall get punished. But still some of hk people think PRC is like an evil, if they want to arrest you they will make fake evidence etc, and don’t accept any kind of extradition (in my opinion, if you think mainland China is such bad, you shall never visit mainland, and then there is no way they can find you guilty). And some of them are being told that even thought hk government make a compromise, they will do what they want eventually (pass the first draft), so we shall stop the government at very beginning. So why hk citizen think it will affect their freedom? Simple, for example, if a citizen is in hk and always has negative comment against PRC, PRC hate this citizen and can do nothing. But after the extradition PRC can say that such citizen is against Chinese law when he visited the mainland (making up some fake evidence), and ask hk government to extradite this citizen. So they think they lost their freedom (but IMO, they just have strong bias against PRC). Yes, agreed obviously HK citizens are overreacting. PRC can surely be trusted, its not like they have abducted people from HK before without any legal proof. They have already done what you say they wouldn't do, just 100 times worse without even showing any proof or getting any approval. Sounds more like you have strong bias not the other way around. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances
And please remind that just some of hk citizens are against PRC, not “hk people are overreacting”, I made the statement many times in this thread, don’t assume the majority of hk people are supporting current riots, the entire storyline I have written above, please spend few minutes reading, rather than believe everything your media tell you
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EPT
