On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I don't often see myself agreeing with Danglars, but this is true and important. If organisations like TL are going to keep showing how proud they are of free speech and gay rights, then it doesn't get to just stay quiet when it could potentially have ramifications. You either stand for what you claim or you at least let us know you intend not to. I'm hoping for a TL statement sooner rather than later.
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
I feel this is a good point, relating back to the original discussion.
The NBA example being bigger than the Blizzard one, but can you even kowtow to Chinese demands realistically? It’s completely unsustainable if individuals within your organisation making their personal opinions known basically land your whole company on the hook for offended sensibilities.
I disagree with doing it on a moral level anyway, but even purely pragmatically it doesn’t seem particularly wise to pursue this course.
China if anything is getting more sensitive and more bold in recent times, rather than gradually shifting in the other direction.
This is the right point, Chinese people are way more sensitive than before, because the government tries to lead people to this direction. It’s wrong but it’s the fact. And globally, globalisation is broken, many of the major countries are becoming more conservative than before, which is not a good sign (like China US UK France Germany etc). But for the company that wants to do business with China, they have to accept this fact. They have to accept the fact that it is much easier to offend Chinese people than before, so if you want this market, you better not comment about politics (again maybe it’s wrong, but it’s the fact)
For blizzard, they of course believe stand with mainland Chinese is better than stand with protests. That’s it.
Things have shifted in meaningful political ways that much is true, although I don’t feel there’s been a shift to conservatism in the West amongst the populace’s at large.
Globalisation, or whatever you want to call it is not functioning particularly well lately, absolutely. It should be a mutual process, whereupon cultures mingle but still keep their character and distinct identity, ideas and goods are exchanged etc.
Trump’s retarded adversarial approach to China does not help either. We’ve got a ridiculous, utterly unviable ‘trade war’, which I disagree with entirely, and utterly lacking any kind of values push of any kind.
Same with the Gulf States as well.
Trump’s move is exactly what Xi wants, US now is not hypothetical enemy, it is a real enemy. and It helps Xi’s work to bring populism back, which is not good. And thought globalisation have its problems, but I think it is the right direction. I believe by connecting everyone’s interests together, everyone can accept different values and cultures, otherwise we just care about ourselves
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I don't often see myself agreeing with Danglars, but this is true and important. If organisations like TL are going to keep showing how proud they are of free speech and gay rights, then it doesn't get to just stay quiet when it could potentially have ramifications. You either stand for what you claim or you at least let us know you intend not to. I'm hoping for a TL statement sooner rather than later.
I don’t often see myself agreeing with Danglars on many issues either, although I do find his views considered and interesting but 100% this.
I am sick to my back teeth of corporations going on about how inclusive and open they are, long after the horse has bolted and such things have entered the realm of normalcy.
While I consider TL more of a community than a corporation, I would personally like to see them take a stance on this particular issue too.
On October 10 2019 20:05 tigon_ridge wrote: When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease the mob... In the long run, that will be bad for business.
I could easily replace this with "When you choose to compromise your own integrity in order to appease an incredibly sensitive authoritarian regime... In the long run, that will be bad for business"
Like seriously people. I don't get this view - it's such a bad long-term business model to subjugate yourself to China like this. Like the whole NBA thing - it was a fucking tweet. Like this huge shitstorm was caused by a god damn tweet. China has cut all official business ties with the NBA - and let me repeat this again - over a god damn tweet, in a country where people actually have freedom of speech. You will never be able to control people to that extent in a place like America, where anti-authoritarian tendencies run strong (which is great, btw, its one part of the US I appreciate a lot).
I genuinely hope that businesses start to reconsider investing in China over this shit. How are you ever going to satisfy the whims of a capricious, incredibly easily offended authoritarian regime? A regime that can, on a whim, essentially nullify any investment you've made in the country - over a god damn tweet. Like the NBA is literally going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars over a tweet from someone that they actually can't even control.
Investing hundreds of millions into a country like that just seems like bad business to me.
I feel this is a good point, relating back to the original discussion.
The NBA example being bigger than the Blizzard one, but can you even kowtow to Chinese demands realistically? It’s completely unsustainable if individuals within your organisation making their personal opinions known basically land your whole company on the hook for offended sensibilities.
I disagree with doing it on a moral level anyway, but even purely pragmatically it doesn’t seem particularly wise to pursue this course.
China if anything is getting more sensitive and more bold in recent times, rather than gradually shifting in the other direction.
This is the right point, Chinese people are way more sensitive than before, because the government tries to lead people to this direction. It’s wrong but it’s the fact. And globally, globalisation is broken, many of the major countries are becoming more conservative than before, which is not a good sign (like China US UK France Germany etc). But for the company that wants to do business with China, they have to accept this fact. They have to accept the fact that it is much easier to offend Chinese people than before, so if you want this market, you better not comment about politics (again maybe it’s wrong, but it’s the fact)
For blizzard, they of course believe stand with mainland Chinese is better than stand with protests. That’s it.
Things have shifted in meaningful political ways that much is true, although I don’t feel there’s been a shift to conservatism in the West amongst the populace’s at large.
Globalisation, or whatever you want to call it is not functioning particularly well lately, absolutely. It should be a mutual process, whereupon cultures mingle but still keep their character and distinct identity, ideas and goods are exchanged etc.
Trump’s retarded adversarial approach to China does not help either. We’ve got a ridiculous, utterly unviable ‘trade war’, which I disagree with entirely, and utterly lacking any kind of values push of any kind.
Same with the Gulf States as well.
Trump’s move is exactly what Xi wants, US now is not hypothetical enemy, it is a real enemy. and It helps Xi’s work to bring populism back, which is not good. And thought globalisation have its problems, but I think it is the right direction. I believe by connecting everyone’s interests together, everyone can accept different values and cultures, otherwise we just care about ourselves
Indeed. I don’t really see how people in such an international forum as this can really be against such a process, provided we keep aspects of our cultures and don’t become one homogenous blob.
I hope to see a much more open China truly take its place on the world stage, and get exposed to its culture as much as its electronics. I think I’ll see it before I die, but such things take time.
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I can't speak for TeamLiquid, but the beauty of TL.net itself is that every user is empowered and encouraged to share their opinion. This includes the ability for staff to speak freely as individuals without repercussion. So you will see in other threads staff members have already taken stances based on what they believe in. That being said, not one of us holds stake in Teamliquid and therefore cannot speak on behalf of its owners. I think it's a stronger statement anyway to have staff freedom of expression versus one blanket statement that may not truly encapsulate the varied (even if similar) opinions of everyone at work here.
TLDR: Of course we love everyone, no need to beat a dead horse <3!
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I can't speak for TeamLiquid, but the beauty of TL.net itself is that every user is empowered and encouraged to share their opinion. This includes the ability for staff to speak freely as individuals without repercussion. So you will see in other threads staff members have already taken stances based on what they believe in. The being said, not one of us holds stake in Teamliquid and therefore cannot speak on behalf of its owners. I think it's a stronger statement anyway to have staff freedom of expression versus one blanket statement that may not truly encapsulate the varied (even if similar) opinions of everyone at work here.
TLDR: Of course we love everyone, no need to beat a dead horse <3!
I agree with what you said, it’s why it’s where I spend most of my internet time, but TL has taken stances in the past and used the banner for particular causes etc.
I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
They cant say that however on Blizzards own produced content, then they are liable to be ban. Streaming on twitch is your own content, unless you are cheating or modding in the game the only company than can ban you is twitch (because it is actually their content).
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I don't often see myself agreeing with Danglars, but this is true and important. If organisations like TL are going to keep showing how proud they are of free speech and gay rights, then it doesn't get to just stay quiet when it could potentially have ramifications. You either stand for what you claim or you at least let us know you intend not to. I'm hoping for a TL statement sooner rather than later.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
Looking for what exactly?
Anything they think is inappropriate..... we just need that cackling laugh and the silhouette of a wrinkly old man. The Republican Senate is being dissolved and The Republic is becoming ... The Empire!
More seriously though, all their previous monitoring mechanisms that were used "for the good of the community" can really be used for any purpose whatsoever. If this China//HK thing is important enough they'll use whatever means are necessary I suppose.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
waitwaitwaitwait, that should be absolutely impossible.
Are you telling me Blizzard has a part of their EULA that says: - If you make a political statement that we don't agree with you are not allowed to play our game?
So basically as if they would make a game and say "only Trump supporters may play this game, anyone found out to not be a Trump supporter will be banned".
There just no way that is possible, they can't put having a certain opinion as a requisite for playing a game and they cant ban someone for saying their opinion. I mean they can during Blizzards own broadcasted events but they cant on youtube, thats just pure BS.
I haven't read all 22 pages in this thread but in my mind it's pretty simple. It's 100% within Blizzard's rights to ban someone in these circumstances and it's within 100% of the customer's and player's rights to boycot them for it. I would if I didn't have so much fun in WoW classic right now...
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
waitwaitwaitwait, that should be absolutely impossible.
Are you telling me Blizzard has a part of their EULA that says: - If you make a political statement that we don't agree with you are not allowed to play our game?
So basically as if they would make a game and say "only Trump supporters may play this game, anyone found out to not be a Trump supporter will be banned".
There just no way that is possible, they can't put having a certain opinion as a requisite for playing a game and they cant ban someone for saying their opinion. I mean they can during Blizzards own broadcasted events but they cant on youtube, thats just pure BS.
Please keep in mind that this is coming from Kotaku which has its own bias. However, there is some truth in this article.
If Blizzard determines that users bringing up all the ways China has been fucking over Hong Kong for the past 20+ years is considered "toxic" I guess they can ban the users.
I'm not sure to the degree to which the China//HK conflict is true. Maybe China has been screwing over Hong Kong since 1997 .. maybe not.. I don't know enough about the topic. However, Blizzard could easily declare the entire topic "toxic" and start banning people if they want.
On October 11 2019 02:06 Longshank wrote: I haven't read all 22 pages in this thread but in my mind it's pretty simple. It's 100% within Blizzard's rights to ban someone in these circumstances and it's within 100% of the customer's and player's rights to boycot them for it. I would if I didn't have so much fun in WoW classic right now...
I don't think anyone is going to say that Blizzard doesn't have their expressed right to do this. It's clearly in the rules that it's about their own discretion for the ban. Still, the ban was incredibly excessive and outrageous. That's the point we're arguing on. Blizzard did not do this in good faith and is effectively attempting to silence those who support HK and support China's government/sovereignty.
And as a consumer, we should be the ones to take a stand against them. The Americas are still over 50% of their revenue share, we can and should make a stand and a dent into their revenue to make them realize that if they want to keep supporting China, they might as well all-in on China because Americans won't support the company anymore.
On October 11 2019 01:33 KT_Elwood wrote: I don't think that risk will justify reward here. Blizzard can easily stomp TL, and won't lose a significant marketshare.
I am totally confused what to think of all the SC2/WC3/WOW streamers/Casters right now. I'd love them to be able to show a reaction, but I also know that - if Activision-Blizzard bans them from streaming - they'd have to find another game or another job.
Activision Blizzard has become this scary.
Blizzard cant ban anyone from streaming on twitch, they don't own twitch. Blizzard also cant ban anyone from playing any of their games because they post on YT/twitch/twitter/whatever that they support the liberate HK movement.
Overwatch's Jeff Kaplan said they'd be looking on Youtube.com for people saying stuff they don't like so they can pre-emptively ban people without them ever doing anything "wrong" on BNet.
i can't get my gf to play OW with me any more... she is a libertarian and hates Kaplan so much. LOL.
waitwaitwaitwait, that should be absolutely impossible.
Are you telling me Blizzard has a part of their EULA that says: - If you make a political statement that we don't agree with you are not allowed to play our game?
So basically as if they would make a game and say "only Trump supporters may play this game, anyone found out to not be a Trump supporter will be banned".
There just no way that is possible, they can't put having a certain opinion as a requisite for playing a game and they cant ban someone for saying their opinion. I mean they can during Blizzards own broadcasted events but they cant on youtube, thats just pure BS.
Every EULA you have ever agreed to has a section that says they can ban you for any or no reason.
On October 11 2019 00:16 BisuDagger wrote: Everyone has done a pretty good job of providing discussion. In the spirit of continued discussion this has been moved to general where you are encourage to continue constructive conversations with each other.
Will TeamLiquid (and aXiomatic Gaming LLC with its controlling interest) release a statement regarding Blizzard's actions, despite potential repercussions for its players competing in future tournaments in China? The cowardice from a major profic-centric corporation (Activision Blizzard) is almost expected in longstanding corporate tradition.
The more player-facing organizations that have taken stands on social issues have less power and a lot to lose, but still must show that stuff like "TL Loves Esports, Equally" wasn't only posted because there was little backlash to fear. Does TeamLiquid still have values when it might have steep costs?
I can't speak for TeamLiquid, but the beauty of TL.net itself is that every user is empowered and encouraged to share their opinion. This includes the ability for staff to speak freely as individuals without repercussion. So you will see in other threads staff members have already taken stances based on what they believe in. The being said, not one of us holds stake in Teamliquid and therefore cannot speak on behalf of its owners. I think it's a stronger statement anyway to have staff freedom of expression versus one blanket statement that may not truly encapsulate the varied (even if similar) opinions of everyone at work here.
TLDR: Of course we love everyone, no need to beat a dead horse <3!
I respect that TL does not retaliate against staff members for stating their own view. I dislike the “repeat the company line” style organizations. It’s a credit that Victor and others doesn’t muzzle their volunteers and paid staff, and in keeping with the organization.
Now, when you have scattered individuals feeling powerless to make a difference in a big corporation, they band together to make their power felt. Boycotts are one of the primary methods employed. Make the company hurt in a way it actually feels the pain, and hopefully next time they recall wincing at the results and choose better.
Gamer-first organizations are the next step of group action. TeamLiquid is linked on official Blizzard webpages, does partnerships with Blizzard, organizes teams for many Blizzard products. What if Blizzard didn’t just crunch some numbers for potential boycotts, and estimate the days until it’ll all blow over, but also reckoned with popular organizations with a big name in their events showing they’re true to their stated values? That’s a second major PR hit.
From “TeamLiquid releases statement critical of recent Blizzard actions, says incompatible with values” to a more extreme “LiquidX team withdraws from Y competition over recent controversy,” that spectrum of possible responses shows TL is willing to do something that actually matters on gamer/caster independence and absurd censorship.
Let me play devils advocate for Blizzard. “You call us cowards. Say we aren’t committed to our corporate values. What organizations among you wouldn’t cave also? Who really has spoken up as an organization against us? Your multi-team esports organizations? No! Your gaming websites? No.They’ll let individuals speak out, but collectively won’t breathe a word. Their stands and beliefs are just as malleable as ours, so don’t come crying to us, hypocrites. None of the big sponsored orgs have done any different, and are secretly glad the pressure isn’t on them to also force an open admission.”
I’m fully aware that BisuDagger doesn’t speak for TL, and the question wondered if he knew about a coming statement. I’m using his post as a springboard for my question, and if no statement is made in the next couple of weeks, I’ll have my answer in the negative. Reminder: It was official TeamLiquid logo & Twitter & post that made the “Loves Equally,” social issue endorsement, not individual users allowed to state personal opinions.
I’m a cynical man that thinks other major organizations will stay silent, when they have an opportunity to speak out against bad corporate decisions affecting the kind of gamers they ostensibly support.
On October 10 2019 19:08 CraigWT wrote: Have you ever seen what they are doing? Hopefully you are honest about statement that you came to hk recently, the real hk is we cannot go out our living area during the weekend because of them and we barely cannot find a opening restaurant during the last weekend. They are ruining the city and most of us don’t support them. Also please visit some hk local online forums to read what we think (u can use google translate). These riots doesn’t represent hk.
Dude, do you even live in HK? How can you not find a restaurant opening in HK? There's hundred of thousands of restaurants literally crammed next to, below, on top of, within residential areas all within a tightly packed area around the area where the protestors operate and the protests occur only in localised areas. If most people in HK don't support the protesters, where exactly are these protestors coming from that are closing down every restaurant in Wan Chai and Kowloon, presuming that's where you live if you can't even go out.
EPT
