EPTAll that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation.
Blizzard bans HS Pro for political statement - Page 24
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Blizzard’s Official Statement: https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/blizzard/23185888/regarding-last-weekend-s-hearthstone-grandmasters-tournament Comment by JJR in case Blizzard tries to pull off a ninja edit: https://tl.net/forum/general/551816-blizzard-bans-hs-pro-for-political-statement?page=27#529 | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
All that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation. | ||
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AmFreak
16 Posts
Really dissapointed by TL. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On October 11 2019 09:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I oppose tech corporations censoring political speech. All that is needed is a disclaimer that the views of whoever speaks do not necessarily reflect the views of the tech corporation. I think the current extreme political repression practiced by China on Uyghur minorities, and the political and legislative violence done to Hong Kong society rise to a level that all decent people should condemn unanimously. I, however, don't think the logic applies to absolutely all forms of political expression done in a tournament put on by private companies. Neo nazi sentiment in European far right, or from Iran to torture and burn all homosexuals, or LaRouche's eating the babies will not and should not inspire outrage if statements are censored in video or interview. Organizers, participants, and sponsors have the better standing in that case. On October 11 2019 09:41 KlaCkoN wrote: This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere" This is the cruz of the issue. The Chinese authoritarian regime headed by Xi Jinping is notoriously petty and vengeful. His nonsensical reactions should be roundly ridiculed by everybody. But the might of the chinese economy and economic relations, and his willingness to go full crazy, makes everyone step carefully (sadly). He's empowered by every incremental level of bullshit he pays no real consequence for. I still am angry at how few major organizations have stood up for the gamer & casters. China gets away with this bullshit precisely because how few organizations (like TeamLiquid, at this moment) are willing to stand for the little guy against the powerful. Maybe they're banned from a major tournament, or maybe some players or associates (or infamously their families) will suddenly have visa issues or banking issues. Hong Kong is just today's major example of where the rubber hits the road. What newfound outrage will the Chinese Party of China feel more free to adopt, when literal state violence against a protest movement doesn't inspire solidarity? Maybe the rest of the world needs to see another Tiananmen Square example before they find their spines. | ||
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Herpin_Along
15 Posts
On October 11 2019 10:34 Danglars wrote: I think the current extreme political repression practiced by China on Uyghur minorities, and the political and legislative violence done to Hong Kong society rise to a level that all decent people should condemn unanimously. I, however, don't think the logic applies to absolutely all forms of political expression done in a tournament put on by private companies. Neo nazi sentiment in European far right, or from Iran to torture and burn all homosexuals, or LaRouche's eating the babies will not and should not inspire outrage if statements are censored in video or interview. Organizers, participants, and sponsors have the better standing in that case. This is the cruz of the issue. The Chinese authoritarian regime headed by Xi Jinping is notoriously petty and vengeful. His nonsensical reactions should be roundly ridiculed by everybody. But the might of the chinese economy and economic relations, and his willingness to go full crazy, makes everyone step carefully (sadly). He's empowered by every incremental level of bullshit he pays no real consequence for. I still am angry at how few major organizations have stood up for the gamer & casters. China gets away with this bullshit precisely because how few organizations (like TeamLiquid, at this moment) are willing to stand for the little guy against the powerful. Maybe they're banned from a major tournament, or maybe some players or associates (or infamously their families) will suddenly have visa issues or banking issues. Hong Kong is just today's major example of where the rubber hits the road. What newfound outrage will the Chinese Party of China feel more free to adopt, when literal state violence against a protest movement doesn't inspire solidarity? Maybe the rest of the world needs to see another Tiananmen Square example before they find their spines. Damn Danglars, I lurk the shit out of the US politics thread and while I normally disagree with most of what you say I feel like you hit the nail on the head pretty damn well here. I too hope TL makes some kind of a stance on the issue. Even though there might be consequences. Truthfully now is the time to do it. Blizzard is unlikely to sanction TL right now because it would just stoke the shitstorm to come down hard on one of the largest (mostly) Blizzard-focused games communities. | ||
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meiji_emperor
27 Posts
On October 11 2019 09:41 KlaCkoN wrote: This is sad and scary :/ That an American company would actively censor political speech on behalf of a murderous one-party regime does not bode well for the future. The political systems in Europe and America are not well equipped to deal with corporations stifling freedom of expression/religion/thought etc because it has not been particularly relevant. But now that there is an increasingly large amount of money to be made by actively suppressing speech the communist party finds objectionably it seems like we as citizens will find ourselves censored not by our governments, but by the private organisations that increasingly run all societal infrastructure. Chinese companies operate trains throughout Europe, how long until wearing the wrong kind of t-shirt will get you kicked off one? "It's a private company, take your business elsewhere" One thing that is clear form this incident is that the majority of customers in the western world think Blizzard made a mistake and many Blizzard employees think the same way. So we have a situation where customers and workers have there interests aligned against the owners of Blizzard. We should take this opportunity to create organizations that can challenge the business practices of Blizzard, an alliance of us customers and Blizzard employees. Maybe supporting a labor union so the workers there can better leverage their power over the execs. I think it's time to stop treating private companies as sacred entities. The only way to guarantee companies act in our interest is for us to have control over their decisions. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8071 Posts
On October 11 2019 13:51 Salazarz wrote: There is time and place for everything, and a tournament broadcast is definitely not the place nor the time for political statements. The outrage is pretty ridiculous, and has nothing to do with 'censorship' or 'freedom of speech.' This whimsy statement has been repeated throughout this thread and has been debunked repeatedly. Please make an effort to discuss honestly. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8071 Posts
On October 11 2019 08:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I can tell you what their next move probably will be. Blizzard will release some vague general statement about how much they love both Hong Kong and China and they want to see both countries work together better. Such harmony will improve the whole wide world and make the whole world a better place!  As offensive as that would be in and of itself, they can't actually do that lest they anger the thinn skinned government of China. They're working to overthrow Hong Kong, and won't accept anything that resembles harmony or working togheter | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On October 11 2019 10:34 Danglars wrote: I think the current extreme political repression practiced by China on Uyghur minorities, and the political and legislative violence done to Hong Kong society rise to a level that all decent people should condemn unanimously. I, however, don't think the logic applies to absolutely all forms of political expression done in a tournament put on by private companies. Neo nazi sentiment in European far right, or from Iran to torture and burn all homosexuals, or LaRouche's eating the babies will not and should not inspire outrage if statements are censored in video or interview. Organizers, participants, and sponsors have the better standing in that case. This is the cruz of the issue. The Chinese authoritarian regime headed by Xi Jinping is notoriously petty and vengeful. His nonsensical reactions should be roundly ridiculed by everybody. But the might of the chinese economy and economic relations, and his willingness to go full crazy, makes everyone step carefully (sadly). He's empowered by every incremental level of bullshit he pays no real consequence for. I still am angry at how few major organizations have stood up for the gamer & casters. China gets away with this bullshit precisely because how few organizations (like TeamLiquid, at this moment) are willing to stand for the little guy against the powerful. Maybe they're banned from a major tournament, or maybe some players or associates (or infamously their families) will suddenly have visa issues or banking issues. Hong Kong is just today's major example of where the rubber hits the road. What newfound outrage will the Chinese Party of China feel more free to adopt, when literal state violence against a protest movement doesn't inspire solidarity? Maybe the rest of the world needs to see another Tiananmen Square example before they find their spines. Well you do understand that supporting separatism like chanting freedom to Hong Kong it's kind of a big deal politically in China and not just the government, the people are against it and will boycott your products and services... I don't think even the majority of the 7.5 million population of Hong Kong want to separate from China, although there is big hate for the CCP and mainland China in the young generations it seems. You think supporting separatism in China after they've had over a century of humiliation starting with the opium wars, the eight nation alliance of Japan, Russia, Britain, France, the United States, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary occupation and plundering of China, colonialism of Hong Kong and Macao, occupation and humiliation by Japan in the second world war and the Civil war between the communists and imperalists who fled to Taiwan with China's riches is smart? You think that after all the plundering other nations did to China they would accept foreign entities supporting separatism in their country. It's just a taboo topic, people here should be able to understand this... Just like you can't go to California and chant any kind of racism and support white supremacists you can't expect not to have an outrage, you can't go to China and chant freedom to Hong Kong... It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is. | ||
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abuse
Latvia1931 Posts
On October 11 2019 16:58 raga4ka wrote: Well you do understand that supporting separatism like chanting freedom to Hong Kong it's kind of a big deal politically in China and not just the government, the people are against it and will boycott your products and services... I don't think even the majority of the 7.5 million population of Hong Kong want to separate from China, although there is big hate for the CCP and mainland China in the young generations it seems. You think supporting separatism in China after they've had over a century of humiliation starting with the opium wars, the eight nation alliance of Japan, Russia, Britain, France, the United States, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary occupation and plundering of China, colonialism of Hong Kong and Macao, occupation and humiliation by Japan in the second world war and the Civil war between the communists and imperalists who fled to Taiwan with China's riches is smart? You think that after all the plundering other nations did to China they would accept foreign entities supporting separatism in their country. It's just a taboo topic, people here should be able to understand this... Just like you can't go to California and chant any kind of racism and support white supremacists you can't expect not to have an outrage, you can't go to China and chant freedom to Hong Kong... It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is. The Hong Kong Basic Law ensures that Hong Kong will retain its capitalist economic system and own currency (the Hong Kong Dollar), legal system, legislative system, and people's rights and freedom for fifty years, as a special administrative region (SAR) of China for 50 years, until 2047. This is what it is all about. This is what the fight is about. China has no say, they agreed to these terms. Poor China, being humiliated over the ages, yet occupying other lands themselves. What should people like HKG feel like, when they've been occupied by some entity for hundreds of years, changing over the ages? | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On October 11 2019 17:06 abuse wrote: The Hong Kong Basic Law ensures that Hong Kong will retain its capitalist economic system and own currency (the Hong Kong Dollar), legal system, legislative system, and people's rights and freedom for fifty years, as a special administrative region (SAR) of China for 50 years, until 2047. This is what it is all about. This is what the fight is about. China has no say, they agreed to these terms. Hong Kong government proposed an extradition bill, which is normal for countries who share security concerns like USA and Canada. Hong Kong people protested, bill was terminated... From what i read about 2 million Hong Kongers protested freely, people's rights and freedom were exercised. After that protest turned violent and riots broke all over Hong Kong which caused the police to suppress the riots. Billions of damage to Hong Kong from the riots and people injured. There is no freedom for violence and rioting... After 4 months of rioting there is 1 person shot by the police (not even dead). If we compare to France Yellow Vest protests: Casualties Death(s) 11 people, including 3 yellow vests, were killed in traffic accidents caused by yellow vests roadblocks in Belgium and France, 2 yellow vests, both aged over 50, died during the demonstrations due to heart problems unrelated to the protests, 1 woman died of a surgical shock at the hospital after she had been injured in the margins of a demonstration.[57] Injuries 4,000 (police and civilians)[56] Not to mention what would've happened if it was in US with gun happy laws, and itchy fingers of the police, so I think Hong Kong's police is handling it well... I'm just gonna copy my thoughts on the China and British deal on Hong Kong from earlier in this thread as China will inevitably, but not openly influence politics in Hong Kong: China signed the agreement for Hong Kong with the British Colonial rule, because it was a good deal at the time for them as they were signing from the perspective of a weak state. Now that they are clearly not a weak country anymore I don't expect them to fully honor the agreements until 2047, just like any country in a position of power would... E.g. Trump's withdrawal from various agreements... | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8071 Posts
On October 11 2019 16:14 raga4ka wrote: Actually I can justify banning the player since he broke the rules, but why fire the casters? I don't seem to understand what they did wrong... They didn't say anything political as far as I read, so no reason to fire them... The casters allowed him to say it, is the gist of the problem. I don't even agree that banning the player is justified. Especially not for 12 months and withdrawing of his earnings for that entire season. I don't think anyone disagrees that he broke the rules, but a slap on the wrist would have been more reasonable, at the harshest maybe a short ban. To compare, in 2011 Marineking held up a sign in stream stating that the Dokudo Islands belong to Korea, a territory dispute they had with Japan. No punishment. Just a few days ago, America University held up a sign on a official Blizzard Heartstone stream stating "Boycott Blizzard. Free Hong Kong". No punishment. Not even a disqualification from that very tournament (Tho the team pulled out themselves stating they weren't comfortable continuing). BlitzChung: Murder of career, steal his earnings, and fire the casters. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
On October 11 2019 17:42 Excludos wrote: The casters allowed him to say it, is the gist of the problem. According to the translation I read, they said "go on then, say the 8 words". That is, they specifically prompted him to say that set phrase, fully knowing it was coming. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On October 11 2019 16:58 raga4ka wrote: It's funny because no one supported Catalonia to this extent when they after a referendum voted to leave Spain... It's not like CCP oppressed Hong Kong like a middle east dictatorship, they wanted to have an extradition deal with Hong Kong government which is normal for countries like the US and Canada to have. In the end they backtracked, but protests became more violent with separatism as main objective. Hong Kong is part of China, not a sovereign entity, just with more autonomy compared to mainland China. Majority of Chinese also support their government oppressive as it is. You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader. The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China. Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/02/hong-kong-democracy-china | ||
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kmh
Finland351 Posts
The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China. It's a tad bit more nuanced than that. Hong Kong has no extradition treaty with e.g. Taiwan, meaning that recently a young man living in Hong Kong murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan and fled to HK, where he can't be prosecuted for the crime. That's not exactly a great state of affairs either. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany934 Posts
On October 11 2019 18:09 kmh wrote: It's a tad bit more nuanced than that. Hong Kong has no extradition treaty with e.g. Taiwan, meaning that recently a young man living in Hong Kong murdered his girlfriend in Taiwan and fled to HK, where he can't be prosecuted for the crime. That's not exactly a great state of affairs either. Do you really think that there are people ready to risk everything, to protect a murderer ? Or is it more plausible that the "general extradition" law that beijing tries to force on HK will be used to silence political voices by making them afraid of disapearing ? "Umbrella Protests" have startet in 2014, when Beijing announced that HK will not be allowed to vote freely in 2017 (promised in 1997), but that a comitee will decide upon the candidates before the election. Events like the "Causway Bay Books disappearences" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances Fueled the distrust in chinese promises even more And now the generel extradition law would allow the HK government to deliver any prisioner at "their sole discretion" to any country in the world. Including Mainland China. Since 1997 the ambitious beijing has stepped back from promises towards the independet HK Administration and has riled up the people with propaganda. Since Xi came to office and gave himself even more power it is getting worse at a faster rate. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On October 11 2019 17:52 Shuffleblade wrote: You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader. The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China. Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/02/hong-kong-democracy-china I know the difference, between the political system that both countries use. What does it matter? In the end the Catalonian leader was also hunted by Spain government for having separatist and anti government agenda. Everyone knows that human rights are not China's strong point, but they are improving non the less. There was never democracy in Hong Kong not with British nor Chinese reign. Hong Kong is a declining economy, already surpassed by Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, soon to be surpassed by Taiwan, Guangzhou and Chongqing if it continues like this. Economic instability is the main reason why protests broke out so easily, but that's not the CCP's fault. Low GDP growth, high living costs, no reforms on the country's economy, high competition from Asian economies, as well as democracy activists that fuel hate for CCP and China is the main reasons... People especially those outside of China seem to ignore this factors. And let me tell you that the CCP and China want to improve the economic instability and livelihood of Hong Kongers by integrating it in to the countries economy, through projects like the Greater Bay Area. Hong Kong is not as important at this point in time to force the CCP to impose it's sovereignty over Hong Kong. That's a nice article portraying western views from the author on Hong Kong's situation: "Given it recognises no legal or other constraints on its behaviour, Xi’s regime will now feel free to deal with the Hong Kong unrest as it sees fit. The signs are ominous. Whether or not the violence was deliberately orchestrated by Beijing, as Martin Lee, the respected pro-democracy activist and former legislator, has suggested, China seems determined to exploit the opportunity it has created to tighten its grip and accelerate the process of forcible political assimilation." So far I don't see the tanks rolling in to Hong Kong Tiananmen square style. | ||
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