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Blizzard’s Official Statement: https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/blizzard/23185888/regarding-last-weekend-s-hearthstone-grandmasters-tournament Comment by JJR in case Blizzard tries to pull off a ninja edit: https://tl.net/forum/general/551816-blizzard-bans-hs-pro-for-political-statement?page=27#529 | ||
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KT_Elwood
688 Posts
In short: Use of tanks/Military imho need to be combined with a storyline that supports china's rightfullness to exert this kind of force. The only way to this if the protestors form a strong enough political representation, removing/overpowering Lam administration, that openly reaches out internationaly and seeks independence from mainland china. In that case Carrie Lam would seek out military help. | ||
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CraigWT
97 Posts
On October 11 2019 17:52 Shuffleblade wrote: You should educate yourself on the topic, unlike Spain China is a totalitarian state were the governing body does whatever they want to whomever they want, it is not fettered by the law only by the whims of its supreme leader. The bills original intent was for China to be allowed extradition of anyone suspected of a crime in China. Sounds almost like a rule that would a allow a fickle dictatorship to get their hands of whomever they wanted in Hong Kong and then do whatever they wanted to them. Just as they do with the citizens of mainland China. Catalonia and Spain are so far off its not even funny. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/02/hong-kong-democracy-china Spain shares the similar value with you, so you think everything Spain have done for Catalonia can be justified, China does share the similar value of political system, so what they have done is all evil move. What a freedom. | ||
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Yurie
11678 Posts
On October 12 2019 00:01 CraigWT wrote: Spain shares the similar value with you, so you think everything Spain have done for Catalonia can be justified, China does share the similar value of political system, so what they have done is all evil move. What a freedom. Being allowed to think that is a freedom. Catalonia has political elections where they people you can vote for is not appointed from the central government (for China that is against a treaty but being done). If they want to they can vote for a party that wants to get out from Spain and implement a vote for that action. If done Spain would release them but hate having to do it. Spain would also use its political power to not let them into EU and punish them for moving out of their union. Hong Kong can't vote to get out of China. The vote will not be allowed to be held. Stop of process. Spain would of course use soft power and (sadly) even some hard power to effect the vote but not stop the movement forcefully. Chain would if it got to that stage. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4208 Posts
On October 12 2019 00:17 Yurie wrote: Being allowed to think that is a freedom. Catalonia has political elections where they people you can vote for is not appointed from the central government (for China that is against a treaty but being done). If they want to they can vote for a party that wants to get out from Spain and implement a vote for that action. If done Spain would release them but hate having to do it. Spain would also use its political power to not let them into EU and punish them for moving out of their union. Hong Kong can't vote to get out of China. The vote will not be allowed to be held. Stop of process. Spain would of course use soft power and (sadly) even some hard power to effect the vote but not stop the movement forcefully. Chain would if it got to that stage. Errr "if done Spain would release them etc etc etc". So what happened in 2017 was…..Spain accepting and allowing such a thing to take place? Did not seem like it at all. | ||
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Xlancer
United States126 Posts
On October 11 2019 18:50 just-pick-warren wrote: Two things I find surprising here: 1. The amount of Tlers who are with Blizzard / China on this are exceptionally high, compared to other forums. 2. The audacity of Blizzard to say politics have no place in their games. Probably because posters on this website tend to be older and more mature... I remember being a young, outraged, hotheaded teen, but age tends to give one the ability to understand the validity of multiple view points. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm correct and you're wrong. International sporting competitions have to be apolitical to survive. Think of the Olympics and FIFA. Would they allow athletes to hold up signs or make statements that support a revolutionary separatist movement in a UN recognized nation? I am personally sympathetic with the Hong Kong protest movement (They are culturally separate from mainland China and don't even speak the same language), but I am disgusted by people ruining my sporting events by bringing their political tribalism to the event. Let's just enjoy the event and discus politics later over a beer. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Xlancer
United States126 Posts
On October 12 2019 03:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The event was over. It was a winners post-match interview. Is that not the equivalent of discussing politics later over a beer? It's the equivalent of holding up the trophy and shouting "Revolution! Down with China!" into the TV camera. Very unprofessional, divisive and tribalistic... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On October 12 2019 03:04 Xlancer wrote: Probably because posters on this website tend to be older and more mature... I remember being a young, outraged, hotheaded teen, but age tends to give one the ability to understand the validity of multiple view points. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm correct and you're wrong. International sporting competitions have to be apolitical to survive. Think of the Olympics and FIFA. Would they allow athletes to hold up signs or make statements that support a revolutionary separatist movement in a UN recognized nation? I am personally sympathetic with the Hong Kong protest movement (They are culturally separate from mainland China and don't even speak the same language), but I am disgusted by people ruining my sporting events by bringing their political tribalism to the event. Let's just enjoy the event and discus politics later over a beer. Both of the Olympics and FIFA only push a lack of politics upon individual personal expression of politics. On the state level not so much, nothing new either. The likes of the Gulf States and China and Russia can use international sport as a propaganda vehicle, but god forbid any individual athlete speak their mind on a political issue. I’m finally stable enough and with the income to travel to a football World Cup next time it’s around, a lifelong dream of mine and wow it’s in fucking Qatar where indentured servants literally died building their stadiums and homosexuality is illegal. Fantastic! All ‘keep politics out of sport’ means in effect is the little guy doesn’t have a voice, the powerful are already well, well represented there. Imagine being a lifelong supporter of Manchester City, or Paris Saint Germain only to have such a social institution become a loss-making advertisement for the Emirati that they aren’t such bad folks really. | ||
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Xlancer
United States126 Posts
On October 12 2019 03:56 Wombat_NI wrote: Both of the Olympics and FIFA only push a lack of politics upon individual personal expression of politics. On the state level not so much, nothing new either. The likes of the Gulf States and China and Russia can use international sport as a propaganda vehicle, but god forbid any individual athlete speak their mind on a political issue. I’m finally stable enough and with the income to travel to a football World Cup next time it’s around, a lifelong dream of mine and wow it’s in fucking Qatar where indentured servants literally died building their stadiums and homosexuality is illegal. Fantastic! All ‘keep politics out of sport’ means in effect is the little guy doesn’t have a voice, the powerful are already well, well represented there. Imagine being a lifelong supporter of Manchester City, or Paris Saint Germain only to have such a social institution become a loss-making advertisement for the Emirati that they aren’t such bad folks really. How does Blizzard saying that they don't want to support a Chinese revolution on their official stream equate to Blizzard saying that the very same athlete can't do it on their own personal stream??? Do you really want to listen to Chinese athletes cry "One China!" on blizzard's streams??? | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On October 12 2019 04:15 Xlancer wrote: How does Blizzard saying that they don't want to support a Chinese revolution on their official stream equate to Blizzard saying that the very same athlete can't do it on their own personal stream??? Do you really want to listen to Chinese athletes cry "One China!" on blizzard's streams??? This argument does not fly, when Blizzard consistently punished their players for what they said on their personal streams before. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16380 Posts
On October 12 2019 03:44 Xlancer wrote: It's the equivalent of holding up the trophy and shouting "Revolution! Down with China!" into the TV camera. Very unprofessional, divisive and tribalistic... Outside a Trump rally last night protestors were waving flags of China. So China has its supporters. The 1972 Summit Series occurred between Canada (free country) and the USSR ( communist dictatorship). Canada lost a game in Vancouver, Canada making the series 2-1-1 in favour of the U.S.S.R. After the game Canadian hockey fans were chanting "Communism Is Best" they were cheering in favour of the U.S.S.R. Lots of Canadians thought it was awesome that Pierre Trudeau was great friends with Dictator Fidel Castro. There are North Americans who love communist dictatorships and its been that way for a while. People try to say this is some new extremist phenomenon `created by Trump`. I disagree. I say... same shit different decade. The people screaming about how "horribly extreme everything has become" ... are prisoners of the moment. I think we're going to see Blizzard try to make some compromise statement that talks about how both China and Hong Kong are great places and the people of both places are great. Blizzard will state they hope China and Hong Kong can work together better in the future in order to improve the lives of all citizens of both places. | ||
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4330 Posts
This was a very controversial image in its day in 1936. German Olympic Athlete throwing his hand up in the Nazi Salute in protest during the Star Spangled Banner when a black American man took gold. Was it in poor taste? Certainly. Did it offend a large group of people. Yes and no. Depends on your geography during that era. Some praised him, others were horrified. Were the Tournament Olympic Organizers upset about it? I’m sure they were, it WAS in POOR taste and I’m sure not very sportsman like and I’m sure there were rules against it. But Was the Athlete punished? No. He was allowed to say his piece, or show his dissatisfaction in a sense, without losing his medal or being thrown out of the Olympics. So despite what was going on in the world at that time. Aryan Supremacy and all that. People still had the FREEDOM of speech to express, one way or the other, without fear of punishment. Does this mean people want to see a guy yelling something radical every single game or sports event or competition? I’m sure many people don’t want to but that does not give anyone the right the remove that individuals right to SAYING something. Even if you or I do or do not agree with it. What Activision Blizzard and China are doing is removing ANY and ALL FREEDOM of speech and going so far as to punish those that try to express that freedom. That is where I am opposed and encourage others to not let this stand. What this is about, in my mind, is not what is happening in Hong Kong. Yes, it is in the news and many Westerners support the protesters but what else can we do? It’s terrible what is happening. It shouldn’t be happening. Much like what happened in Germany before World War 2. But what has really gotten people riled up in the West and what I feel this is TRUELY about is Blitz’s FREEDOM to voice his dissatisfaction and being punished for it and this is where the majority of the world is not going to stand idly by and let that happen. We shouldn’t let it happen and God have mercy on us for whenever the day comes people are willing to give up that Freedom without a fight. This is something that many of us actually can make a difference by deleting our accounts, stop buying Activision Blizzard products and even going as far as to opposed products from China. To recap. This is about the suppression of people being able to have a voice and being heard. Even if it isn’t a message some people want to hear, people should still have the freedom to say it without consequences. Those that seek to eliminate that freedom should be the ones punished. Activision Blizzard and China... you deserve all the hate being thrown your way right now. Edit: And now Riot Games. Fuck you too Riot. https://kotaku.com/riot-forbids-league-of-legends-players-and-commentators-1838978263 | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On October 12 2019 05:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Outside a Trump rally last night protestors were waving flags of China. So China has its supporters. The 1972 Summit Series occurred between Canada (free country) and the USSR ( communist dictatorship). Canada lost a game in Vancouver, Canada making the series 2-1-1 in favour of the U.S.S.R. After the game Canadian hockey fans were chanting "Communism Is Best" they were cheering in favour of the U.S.S.R. Lots of Canadians thought it was awesome that Pierre Trudeau was great friends with Dictator Fidel Castro. There are North Americans who love communist dictatorships and its been that way for a while. People try to say this is some new extremist phenomenon `created by Trump`. I disagree. I say... same shit different decade. The people screaming about how "horribly extreme everything has become" ... are prisoners of the moment. Same shit different decade. We're approaching same shit, different century. This is an extreme case of repression and violence in Hong Kong. Besides Hong Kong, the other cases at this extreme are the plight of citizens of Venezuela and North Korea. I don't fault any South American team shouting, "I stand with the people of Venezuela! Freedom for Venezuela!" The situation is not the same as some general rule against chatting about politics. These are the worldwide events and oppression that should transcend such boundaries, and you can tell that the majority do recognize that they're above such boundaries. When it's merely a political difference of opinion, the responsibility and greater claim of right shifts to the tournament organizers. Some Canadian winner's podium is not where you shout "FUCK TRUDEAU." The owners of the tournament have the larger interest in keeping the tourney sponsor-friendly and young-viewer-friendly, compared to censorship of political opinion. (And if public criticism of the government was banned in some dystopian future, the comparative interest shifts again). I haven't seen any honest argument to treat this as an example of keeping politics out of gaming, or that the speech itself was too extreme. Cut away the intentional downplaying of police/military/gang oppression, cut away absurd comparisons to 1839 Opium Wars, and is there really some sane argument I've missed? | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9007 Posts
On October 12 2019 05:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/11/article-1205901-06080B2D000005DC-976_468x450.jpg This was a very controversial image in its day in 1936. German Olympic Athlete throwing his hand up in the Nazi Salute in protest during the Star Spangled Banner when a black American man took gold. Was it in poor taste? Certainly. Did it offend a large group of people. Yes and no. Depends on your geography during that era. Some praised him, others were horrified. Was the Athlete punished? No. He was allowed to say his piece, or show his dissatisfaction in a sense, without losing his medal or being thrown out of the Olympics. So despite what was going on in the world at that time. Aryan Supremacy and all that. People still had the FREEDOM of speech to express, one way or the other, without fear of punishment. What Activision Blizzard and China are doing is removing ANY and ALL FREEDOM of speech and going so far as to punish those that try to express that freedom. That is where I am opposed and encourage others to not let this stand. What this is about, in my mind, is not what is happening in Hong Kong. It’s terrible what is happening. It shouldn’t be happening. Much like what happened in Germany before World War 2. But what this is TRUELY about is Blitz’s FREEDOM to voice his dissatisfaction and being punished for it and this is where the majority of the world is not going to stand idly by and let that happen. We shouldn’t let it happen and God have mercy on us for whenever the day comes people are willing to give up that Freedom without a fight. To recap. This is about the suppression of people being able to have a voice and being heard. Even if it isn’t a message some people want to hear, people should still have the freedom to say it without consequences. Those that seek to eliminate that freedom should be the ones punished. Activision Blizzard and China... you deserve all the hate being thrown your way right now. You are confusing the corporatization of sports in particular with a general degradation of freedom of speech. No, people weren't free to dissent without fear of punishment in the 30s, murdering the opposition was en vogue in Europe at the time. Paid TV/radio ads were a new concept (if they even existed?) in 1936, whereas now the IOC earns almost all of its multi-billion revenue from broadcasting rights. FIFA/UEFA as well, just 15-20 years ago it was not unusual for players to display a shirt with political or religious messaging after scoring without getting sanctioned, while now there are fines plus cards issued for that. And sure enough, a club might get a bigger fine for its supporters displaying a political banner that offends a certain market than for its supporters making monkey chants at a black player. Few people would have batted an eye if Blizzard fined Blitz 10% of his tournament prize money for his comment. As cynical as it may sound, their only mistake was not weighing the PR loss vs local market appeasement as well as experienced sports federations do. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16380 Posts
On October 12 2019 06:48 Dan HH wrote:And sure enough, a club might get a bigger fine for its supporters displaying a political banner that offends a certain market than for its supporters making monkey chants at a black player. meh, Fans were chanting "Gorilla" at a black UFC fighter at a UFC event I attended in New York without a problem. no ejections. no interaction from security. nothing. I don't think its that big of a deal. However, I think if you have a sign that says "Abortion Is Murder" you'll be dealt with a lot more harshly and deservedly so. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On October 12 2019 02:51 KobraKay wrote: Errr "if done Spain would release them etc etc etc". So what happened in 2017 was…..Spain accepting and allowing such a thing to take place? Did not seem like it at all. Ya seriously, that comment is weird as hell, especially since Spain said over and over that Catalonia DID NOT have the freedom to vote on his secession. Basicly no country allow peacefull independance, Italy didn't when a part of the north voted for independance, Australia neither, most EU country said it's not an option, Canada never said they would have given Quebec independance if the vote had pass. England is pretty much the only country that has open tho dors to democratic independance, altought we will see when/if Scotland goes throught. (well and Czechoslovakia I guess but that was a another context) Not saying we shouldn't militate for independance, just that it's not exactly a right here neither. | ||
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jy_9876543210
265 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On October 12 2019 05:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/11/article-1205901-06080B2D000005DC-976_468x450.jpg This was a very controversial image in its day in 1936. German Olympic Athlete throwing his hand up in the Nazi Salute in protest during the Star Spangled Banner when a black American man took gold. Was it in poor taste? Certainly. Did it offend a large group of people. Yes and no. Depends on your geography during that era. Some praised him, others were horrified. Were the Tournament Olympic Organizers upset about it? I’m sure they were, it WAS in POOR taste and I’m sure not very sportsman like and I’m sure there were rules against it. But Was the Athlete punished? No. He was allowed to say his piece, or show his dissatisfaction in a sense, without losing his medal or being thrown out of the Olympics. So despite what was going on in the world at that time. Aryan Supremacy and all that. People still had the FREEDOM of speech to express, one way or the other, without fear of punishment. Does this mean people want to see a guy yelling something radical every single game or sports event or competition? I’m sure many people don’t want to but that does not give anyone the right the remove that individuals right to SAYING something. Even if you or I do or do not agree with it. What Activision Blizzard and China are doing is removing ANY and ALL FREEDOM of speech and going so far as to punish those that try to express that freedom. That is where I am opposed and encourage others to not let this stand. What this is about, in my mind, is not what is happening in Hong Kong. Yes, it is in the news and many Westerners support the protesters but what else can we do? It’s terrible what is happening. It shouldn’t be happening. Much like what happened in Germany before World War 2. But what has really gotten people riled up in the West and what I feel this is TRUELY about is Blitz’s FREEDOM to voice his dissatisfaction and being punished for it and this is where the majority of the world is not going to stand idly by and let that happen. We shouldn’t let it happen and God have mercy on us for whenever the day comes people are willing to give up that Freedom without a fight. This is something that many of us actually can make a difference by deleting our accounts, stop buying Activision Blizzard products and even going as far as to opposed products from China. To recap. This is about the suppression of people being able to have a voice and being heard. Even if it isn’t a message some people want to hear, people should still have the freedom to say it without consequences. Those that seek to eliminate that freedom should be the ones punished. Activision Blizzard and China... you deserve all the hate being thrown your way right now. Edit: And now Riot Games. Fuck you too Riot. https://kotaku.com/riot-forbids-league-of-legends-players-and-commentators-1838978263 Riot Games is bought by Tencent in Dec 2015, so nothing surprising about it. Tencent also has 40% share of Epic but they don't have control over it. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16380 Posts
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-10-11-publishers-risk-being-trapped-between-the-us-and-china-opinion this is an interesting point This wasn't an unforeseeable situation. It has been perfectly clear and widely stated for many years that China's major media companies -- like Tencent (which owns 4.9% of Activision Blizzard and just partnered with it to launch Call of Duty Mobile, likely to be the most important product launch of the year for the company) and NetEase (which operates Blizzard's games in China), are not independent free-market enterprises in the way we would understand them in the rest of the world, but rather remain closely tied to the Chinese state and the ruling party. The hyper-sensitive and tantrum-prone nature of contemporary Chinese nationalism, too, is not some esoteric knowledge guarded by an ancient sect of monks somewhere up a hidden mountain; it's been clear as day for all to see for years. | ||
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Excludos
Norway7942 Posts
Every day that goes by without a statement from TL is a day where I continue to be disappointed. I really would have thought TL would have more backbone than this. I don't accept that it gets to hide behind the guise of "everyone should be free to voice their opinion separately", because A: That doesn't bring any force behind it and B: TL has no problems standing up for something when there is little to no repercussions for doing so. Due to their pro teams, players and large community, TL as a company has large sway over the esports environment. It would be fantastically sad if they didn't make use of it when it suddenly became inconvenient to stand up for your claimed beliefs. | ||
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Xlancer
United States126 Posts
On October 12 2019 05:44 Danglars wrote: I haven't seen any honest argument to treat this as an example of keeping politics out of gaming, or that the speech itself was too extreme. Cut away the intentional downplaying of police/military/gang oppression, cut away absurd comparisons to 1839 Opium Wars, and is there really some sane argument I've missed? I don't think you understand how sensitive the Chinese are about Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, and the South China Sea. I tried talking to my Chinese father-in-law about why the Chinese decided to support North Korea over South Korea in the 1950s and he was instantly offended by the question. Trying to talk about Hong Kong and Taiwan are even worse. The Chinese have a very strong sense of national pride and are extremely sensitive to any perceived slight to their national identity. (Just look at their reaction to the NBA) This is a BIG deal to the Chinese, despite the fact that you could care less about it... | ||
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