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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 989

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14211 Posts
December 15 2018 11:42 GMT
#19761
I really wouldn't consider it that damaging considering Reagan came around only 6 years after Nixon resigned. Either Bush did more damage effectively.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
ReditusSum
Profile Joined September 2018
79 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-12-15 12:32:05
December 15 2018 12:30 GMT
#19762
Andrew Johnson was impeached in 1868. He was a Democrat.
Nixon resigned. Was never impeached.
No President has ever been removed from office. Johnson beat his conviction by 1 vote.
Presidents cannot be indicted. Supreme Court would toss it in the garbage if it was tried. In the future that might change, but for right now that's how it is. President is immune except for impeachment.
Trump's father lived to be 93 (almost 94). His mother lived to be 88. He has the world's best health-care. I seriously doubt he dies before 2024.
GOP will not turn on Trump. I put Trump's chances at being the Republican nominee in 2020 at higher than 95%.
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
December 15 2018 12:36 GMT
#19763
99.99999% repeating is where Trump's at. If they don't run him as the official nominee he'll just run as an indepedent and win again. The only way he doesn't get the nomination in 2020 is if he decides he's already proven he's the bestest President ever and doesn't need a second term to prove it (which I could see as an outside possibility).
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
December 15 2018 15:02 GMT
#19764
For a while there was a non-zero chance Trump wouldn't run in 2020 on the back of the fact that he hates all the actual working part of the job and would rather just be doing everything he does enjoy (rallies, tweeting, watching TV) from the comfort of his far nicer homes. But that door's shut because I am pretty sure he believes the only thing protecting him and his family is his POTUS power.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
December 15 2018 15:34 GMT
#19765
All of this faux-certainty about what will and won’t happen years down the line ignores many of the lessons taught by the recent past.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46515 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-12-15 17:43:50
December 15 2018 17:42 GMT
#19766
On December 15 2018 21:36 iamthedave wrote:
99.99999% repeating is where Trump's at. If they don't run him as the official nominee he'll just run as an indepedent and win again. The only way he doesn't get the nomination in 2020 is if he decides he's already proven he's the bestest President ever and doesn't need a second term to prove it (which I could see as an outside possibility).


If Trump runs as an Independent/ third-party candidate in the general election, he'll be guaranteeing a Democratic president because of the Republican votes he'll steal.

Also - and this is just the mathematician in me - 99.9999 repeating % is exactly equal to 100%.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Emnjay808
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States10666 Posts
December 15 2018 19:12 GMT
#19767
On December 16 2018 00:02 TheTenthDoc wrote:
For a while there was a non-zero chance Trump wouldn't run in 2020 on the back of the fact that he hates all the actual working part of the job and would rather just be doing everything he does enjoy (rallies, tweeting, watching TV) from the comfort of his far nicer homes. But that door's shut because I am pretty sure he believes the only thing protecting him and his family is his POTUS power.

Hillary seems to be well protected and she’s not potus
Skol
Artesimo
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany628 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-12-15 19:16:18
December 15 2018 19:16 GMT
#19768
On December 16 2018 04:12 Emnjay808 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2018 00:02 TheTenthDoc wrote:
For a while there was a non-zero chance Trump wouldn't run in 2020 on the back of the fact that he hates all the actual working part of the job and would rather just be doing everything he does enjoy (rallies, tweeting, watching TV) from the comfort of his far nicer homes. But that door's shut because I am pretty sure he believes the only thing protecting him and his family is his POTUS power.

Hillary seems to be well protected and she’s not potus


The deep state protects Hillary. I am not sure if its the same deep state that couldn't give her the win though, I need a professional conspirancy nut to crack this one.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8201 Posts
December 15 2018 19:18 GMT
#19769
On December 16 2018 04:12 Emnjay808 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2018 00:02 TheTenthDoc wrote:
For a while there was a non-zero chance Trump wouldn't run in 2020 on the back of the fact that he hates all the actual working part of the job and would rather just be doing everything he does enjoy (rallies, tweeting, watching TV) from the comfort of his far nicer homes. But that door's shut because I am pretty sure he believes the only thing protecting him and his family is his POTUS power.

Hillary seems to be well protected and she’s not potus

She hasn’t done anything remotely comparable to what Trump and his family are accused of, ot she would be in jail. The worst thing she is accused of is to have used a wrong email address ffs.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-12-15 19:35:21
December 15 2018 19:24 GMT
#19770
On December 15 2018 21:30 ReditusSum wrote:
Andrew Johnson was impeached in 1868. He was a Democrat.
Nixon resigned. Was never impeached.
No President has ever been removed from office. Johnson beat his conviction by 1 vote.
Presidents cannot be indicted. Supreme Court would toss it in the garbage if it was tried. In the future that might change, but for right now that's how it is. President is immune except for impeachment.
Trump's father lived to be 93 (almost 94). His mother lived to be 88. He has the world's best health-care. I seriously doubt he dies before 2024.
GOP will not turn on Trump. I put Trump's chances at being the Republican nominee in 2020 at higher than 95%.


You should take it easy on Presidents cannot be indicted.. There is extremely limited case law and to the extent there is both times the court ruled that the President was subject to normal laws and due process. The notion of Presidential immunity is only found in OLC memos written by lawyers working for Presidents who asked that they be found immune. If you ask lawyers who were working for Presidents that wanted to be found immune, you get answers saying that Presidents are immune. If you ask lawyers working for Special Counsels investigating Presidents (guys working around Kenn Starr), then you get answers saying that Presidents can be prosecuted. The court has not rule[d] specifically on criminal charges, only civil ones. We are left with only the precedent that President Clinton could not delay the sexual harassment suit against him until leaving office EDIT: and that President Nixon had to turn over his tapes during prosecution of some of his underlings. Both Presidents claimed immunity and were told NO by the courts.


United States v. Nixon required the president to turn over his tapes to a court seeking to use them in a criminal case against other defendants; Clinton v. Jones held that Bill Clinton could not stay a sexual-harassment lawsuit against him until leaving office


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/05/presidential-indictment/560957/
ReditusSum
Profile Joined September 2018
79 Posts
December 15 2018 19:55 GMT
#19771
On December 16 2018 04:24 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2018 21:30 ReditusSum wrote:
Andrew Johnson was impeached in 1868. He was a Democrat.
Nixon resigned. Was never impeached.
No President has ever been removed from office. Johnson beat his conviction by 1 vote.
Presidents cannot be indicted. Supreme Court would toss it in the garbage if it was tried. In the future that might change, but for right now that's how it is. President is immune except for impeachment.
Trump's father lived to be 93 (almost 94). His mother lived to be 88. He has the world's best health-care. I seriously doubt he dies before 2024.
GOP will not turn on Trump. I put Trump's chances at being the Republican nominee in 2020 at higher than 95%.


You should take it easy on Presidents cannot be indicted.. There is extremely limited case law and to the extent there is both times the court ruled that the President was subject to normal laws and due process. The notion of Presidential immunity is only found in OLC memos written by lawyers working for Presidents who asked that they be found immune. If you ask lawyers who were working for Presidents that wanted to be found immune, you get answers saying that Presidents are immune. If you ask lawyers working for Special Counsels investigating Presidents (guys working around Kenn Starr), then you get answers saying that Presidents can be prosecuted. The court has not rule[d] specifically on criminal charges, only civil ones. We are left with only the precedent that President Clinton could not delay the sexual harassment suit against him until leaving office EDIT: and that President Nixon had to turn over his tapes during prosecution of some of his underlings. Both Presidents claimed immunity and were told NO by the courts.

Show nested quote +

United States v. Nixon required the president to turn over his tapes to a court seeking to use them in a criminal case against other defendants; Clinton v. Jones held that Bill Clinton could not stay a sexual-harassment lawsuit against him until leaving office


https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/05/presidential-indictment/560957/

If a President is subject to indictment this would effectively destroy his ability to be the chief executive. Constitutionally speaking, the answer is clear: Presidents are immune from indictment.

Do you really think the current Supreme Court would uphold a Trump indictment if it was tried?
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
December 15 2018 19:58 GMT
#19772
There is no law saying a President can't be indicted. All we have is a flimsy "guideline". This article makes perfect sense. Anyone who claims that the President cannot be indicted is just wrong.


"Others have argued that the Department of Justice “policy” against indicting a sitting president was never unambiguously established, did not in any event have the force of law, and rested on the odd theory that a sitting president is just too busy to meet the demands of an ordinary criminal trial but not too busy to stand trial in the US Senate on impeachment charges."

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2018/12/10/constitution-rules-out-sitting-president-immunity-from-criminal-prosecution/6Byq7Qw6TeJlPVUhlgABPM/story.html
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-12-15 20:02:21
December 15 2018 20:02 GMT
#19773
--- Nuked ---
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5044 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-12-15 20:46:12
December 15 2018 20:45 GMT
#19774
its DOJ policy and I think Mueller has already acknowledged it. so as far as these lawyers are concerned he cant be indicted. there is no way the policy is changed right now.

also calling those memos flimsy is just lol.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
December 15 2018 21:08 GMT
#19775
On December 16 2018 05:45 Introvert wrote:
its DOJ policy and I think Mueller has already acknowledged it. so as far as these lawyers are concerned he cant be indicted. there is no way the policy is changed right now.

also calling those memos flimsy is just lol.


It is flimsy. It's the difference between a suggestion and a law. Big difference.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5044 Posts
December 15 2018 21:24 GMT
#19776
On December 16 2018 06:08 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2018 05:45 Introvert wrote:
its DOJ policy and I think Mueller has already acknowledged it. so as far as these lawyers are concerned he cant be indicted. there is no way the policy is changed right now.

also calling those memos flimsy is just lol.


It is flimsy. It's the difference between a suggestion and a law. Big difference.


It's not law, but it is the policy every federal prosecutor is currently working under. At best they could seek an exception. It is not merely a "suggestion."

And the rules aren't going to be changed in the middle of the game, so it's not going away.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
December 15 2018 21:35 GMT
#19777
In the interest of quibbling, I’d note that the common law necessarily allows for changing the rules while playing, decisional law has the potential to create new rules as a matter of course. As for federal prosecutors following their own rules, it’s true that they would almost certainly continue to adhere to them “midgame”, but federal prosecutors aren’t Trumps only worry
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5044 Posts
December 15 2018 21:56 GMT
#19778
On December 16 2018 06:35 farvacola wrote:
In the interest of quibbling, I’d note that the common law necessarily allows for changing the rules while playing, decisional law has the potential to create new rules as a matter of course. As for federal prosecutors following their own rules, it’s true that they would almost certainly continue to adhere to them “midgame”, but federal prosecutors aren’t Trumps only worry


In the interest of being clear, I'd note that I didn't claim the rules can't be changed, but that they won't. If there were something so bad that it merited a change, he'd simply be impeached first (barring Trump actually walking onto Fifth Ave and shooting someone).

"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
December 15 2018 22:48 GMT
#19779
On December 16 2018 06:56 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2018 06:35 farvacola wrote:
In the interest of quibbling, I’d note that the common law necessarily allows for changing the rules while playing, decisional law has the potential to create new rules as a matter of course. As for federal prosecutors following their own rules, it’s true that they would almost certainly continue to adhere to them “midgame”, but federal prosecutors aren’t Trumps only worry


In the interest of being clear, I'd note that I didn't claim the rules can't be changed, but that they won't. If there were something so bad that it merited a change, he'd simply be impeached first (barring Trump actually walking onto Fifth Ave and shooting someone).



No. The memos really are that flimsy. Nixon's 1973 OLC wrote the first one and Clinton's 2000 OLC cited the 1973 and simply repeated its conclusions while pretending that the Court didn't just blow away civil immunity in 1997 Clinton v Jones 1997. The OLC's argument is bad, and they should feel bad. All their efforts to distinguish Clinton v Jones are hinged on the idea that criminal trials would just be too burdensome. But burdensome wasn't an excuse in Clinton v Jones!

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/olc/opinions/2000/10/31/op-olc-v024-p0222_0.pdf


Although the Court determined in Clinton v. Jones that “ [t]he fact that a federal
court’s exercise of its traditional Article III jurisdiction may significantly burden
the time and attention of the chief Executive is not sufficient to establish a violation
of the Constitution,” 520 U.S. at 703, this determination must be understood
in light of the Court’s own characterizations of the manageable burdens imposed
by civil litigation. By contrast, criminal proceedings do not allow for the flexibility
in scheduling and procedures upon which Clinton v. Jones relied. Although the
Court emphasized that “ our decision rejecting the immunity claim and allowing
the case to proceed does not require us to confront the question whether a court
may compel the attendance of the President at any specific time or place,” id.
at 691, a criminal prosecution would require the President’s personal attention
and attendance at specific times and places, because the burdens of criminal
defense are much less amenable to mitigation by skillful trial management. Indeed,
constitutional rights and values are at stake in the defendant’s ability to be present
for all phases of his criminal trial. For the President to maintain the kind of effective
defense the Constitution contemplates, his personal appearance throughout
the duration of a criminal trial could be essential. Yet the Department has consistently
viewed the requirement that a sitting President personally appear at a trial
at a particular time and place in response to judicial process to raise substantial
separation of powers concerns. See Memorandum for Arthur B. Culvahouse, Jr.,
Counsel to the President, from Douglas W. Kmiec, Assistant Attorney General,
Office of Legal Counsel, Re: Constitutional Concerns Im plicated by D em and fo r
Presidential Evidence in a Criminal Prosecution (Oct. 17, 1988).29


Whether or not the Court actually agrees with the OLC memo that burdensome is enough to grant criminal immunity (because the constitution sure doesn't grant that immunity in text) is an open legal question. Let's see what happens with the SDNY files an indictment against Donald based on the Cohen plea.

Note that the Federal Election Campaign Act has a 5 year statute of limitations. Delaying the indictment until after he is out of office may simply annihilate the charge. There is no way the founders intended that getting elected President would be a way to wipe out criminal liability. Could the court rule that the SOL should be tolled in equity? The court in Clinton V Jones smacked down the circuit court for trying to pull that BS. The court in Clinton v Jones specifically made a stink about how delaying the litigation would rot evidence and witnesses and was not a basis for delaying the action.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title52-section30145&num=0&edition=prelim
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5044 Posts
December 15 2018 23:09 GMT
#19780
On December 16 2018 07:48 Wulfey_LA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2018 06:56 Introvert wrote:
On December 16 2018 06:35 farvacola wrote:
In the interest of quibbling, I’d note that the common law necessarily allows for changing the rules while playing, decisional law has the potential to create new rules as a matter of course. As for federal prosecutors following their own rules, it’s true that they would almost certainly continue to adhere to them “midgame”, but federal prosecutors aren’t Trumps only worry


In the interest of being clear, I'd note that I didn't claim the rules can't be changed, but that they won't. If there were something so bad that it merited a change, he'd simply be impeached first (barring Trump actually walking onto Fifth Ave and shooting someone).




Let's see what happens with the SDNY files an indictment against Donald based on the Cohen plea.



I found your problem. In fact, that's the problem I've been referring to this whole time.The definition of flimsy you all seem to be using is a novel one.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
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