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On November 08 2018 06:04 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 05:50 Panthous wrote:
A very large minority of Americans have cast their vote in support of Trump. His next step now is to finish the Russia investigation once and for all. It is no surprise that Trump is now emboldened to do this.
Let's also not forget how ironic this is. Sessions was the only GOP senator that supported Trump as a candidate. Trump has been waiting to fire Sessions for years, taunting him to make him to resign instead. Bizarre. This will now move quickly and get ugly very fast. BTW, lets not forget that Sessions was a full blooded racist.
Rosenstein is only supervising this because Sessions recused himself. Sessions deputy, Matthew Whitaker can now supervise Mueller.
Who? Rosenstein?
Also, tbf, Trump has been signaling he would fire Sessions after the midterms for months. He would have done this regardless of whether he kept the House.
Trump wanted to fire Sessions the moment Trump learned Sessions had recused himself. Trump and all his staff ought to have known Sessions had no way not to recuse himself. So Trump raged in the media at his own staff not telling him this would happen.
As for Muller, he is fine now that Dems have the house.
The dems don't have the house. Not until the new representatives are installed.
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On November 08 2018 06:10 Panthous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:04 On_Slaught wrote:On November 08 2018 05:50 Panthous wrote:
A very large minority of Americans have cast their vote in support of Trump. His next step now is to finish the Russia investigation once and for all. It is no surprise that Trump is now emboldened to do this.
Let's also not forget how ironic this is. Sessions was the only GOP senator that supported Trump as a candidate. Trump has been waiting to fire Sessions for years, taunting him to make him to resign instead. Bizarre. This will now move quickly and get ugly very fast. BTW, lets not forget that Sessions was a full blooded racist.
Rosenstein is only supervising this because Sessions recused himself. Sessions deputy, Matthew Whitaker can now supervise Mueller.
Regardless of if he is innocent or not, right?
Who? Rosenstein? Show nested quote +
Also, tbf, Trump has been signaling he would fire Sessions after the midterms for months. He would have done this regardless of whether he kept the House.
Trump wanted to fire Sessions the moment Trump learned Sessions had recused himself. Trump and all his staff ought to have known Sessions had no way not to recuse himself. So Trump raged in the media at his own staff not telling him this would happen. The dems don't have the house. Not until the new representatives are installed.
So then there's a delay of 2 months and then the House appoints Mueller. Either way, he's not going anywhere.
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Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down.
In the end this investigation is carrier out by justice department. Dems can try all kinds of things, but in the end if the justice department ends the investigation, it ends. Now this is obviously 'wrong', but 40% of the population doesn't care and those 40% control more than 50% of the vote right now.
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On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down.
Firing your AG is not obstruction.... You're allowed to fire people as the president
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If Mueller is fired, he can take a vacation for a new months until the Dems get sworn in and bring him back.
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Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form.
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On November 08 2018 06:22 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down. Firing your AG is not obstruction.... You're allowed to fire people as the president
Not if the firing obstructs justice. Obstruction of justice by definition is about an otherwise legal act being illegal because of the intent to obstruct. Under your argument no firing can ever be obstruction.
On November 08 2018 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form.
What is Kelly tells him exactly this, but he doesn't care and tries anyway? I know this sounds absurd, but if this is what it takes, Trump will try it. But like I said, there are probably easler ways. Question is, will the GOP impeach Trump or not.
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On November 08 2018 06:00 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 05:56 Gorsameth wrote:On November 08 2018 04:39 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 08 2018 04:19 brian wrote:On November 08 2018 04:14 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 08 2018 04:05 Simberto wrote:On November 08 2018 03:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 08 2018 02:41 Kyadytim wrote:On November 07 2018 22:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 07 2018 18:00 Kyadytim wrote:
To use a Starcraft analogy, the Republican party is playing Starcraft on a machine with hacks installed. They didn't install the hacks, but they're lying about having them and refusing to turn them off, and instead leveraging them for every advantage they can get. And then they're pointing to their ladder ranking and head to head winrates as evidence of how good they are at the game. Obviously, Democrats don't want to use ladder rankings or head to head winrates as a measure of comparative skill, because Republicans are hacking. And the underlying issue that I keep talking about is that Democrats are getting sick of playing Starcraft against a hacker.
In this analogy, playing Starcraft against someone is participating in the same democratic process with an opposing party and respecting its outcomes. The problem with your analogy is that democrats were playing on the hacks computer for a long time and only seem to care now that the Republicans have their turn. What? The hacks in this case are the structural advantages Republicans have because the Senate and to a lesser extent the House are designed to give extra representation to people living in sparsely populated states. It's only recently that US political parties started splitting so cleanly on the urban/rural divide. On November 07 2018 21:39 Silvanel wrote:
If the demographic trends hold i think in 10-20 years we might see big democratic states go "No taxation without FAIR representation". Exactly. We can have a conversation about if power has swung too far towards small states versus large states, but I suspect the small states will use that same "No taxation without fair representation" line after you've swung power in the other direction towards the larger states. Well, the simplest and fairest solution is to have a system where every vote is worth the same amount. Currently, a vote in rural nowhere is worth far more than a vote in a californian city, and due to the two-party system and gerrimandering a lot of votes are completely worthless because only the winning votes count in a given area. Simply have a system where the same amount of votes for a party leads to the same amount of seats (at least in the house if you want to keep that senate because "union of states not union of people") To me this is just basic common sense. All votes should be equal. and the rural people would tell you that their interests are not taken account because more people live in the city, all their people win and no one represents rural voters with your system. they could, but that wouldn’t actually follow a logical argument. their interests would be taken into account proportionally. if 20% of the people were rural voters they’d be given 20% of the voting power, unless you had just misunderstood his point. or if you think they’d deserve more, that would be an interesting conversation i think. If you give me 20% of the voting power and the 80% overrides my interests every time do I actually have representation? I know this concept is completely alien to America but there is such a thing as Compromise. There will be times when a group of people wants to pass legislation. And sometimes they will not have enough votes on their own. They can then offer your 20% something they like in return for your vote for something they like. This strange mechanic powers most democracy's around the world that do not suffer from a 2 party system. Republicans at the federal level generally do not negotiate in good faith. Compromise with someone who does not negoiate in good faith is a waste of time.
Try to look at it as a system of more than two groups. This is hard for americans because you have a two party system, and thus tend to see everything as one of those two parties. Compromise does not mean "compromise with the other side". It means compromise with someone. If there are more than two sides, just find the group that gives you the best deal. But the point still works in a two party system. Find groups that are not too well represented by either party, and compromise with them.
If for example, a group that favors workers rights could compromise with a group that is all about enviromentalism. "We do these rules with regards to CO2 emissions, and in exchange unions get these additional rights." Or a group of rich capitalists could compromise with a group of hardcore christians. "We get to pay less taxes, and you guys get to keep on abusing anyone your old book tells you isn't good."
There are all sorts of compromises to be made, you just need to figure out a compromise that gets you more than 50% of the votes. But for some reason, rural voters in the US don't, because they get to have their votes count for more than those of other people.
Imagine if black peoples votes counted double. Or those of people older than 60. Or any other random set of people. All of this is straight up insane. But for some reason it is okay for the votes of rural people to count for more than those of urban people.
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On November 08 2018 06:24 Panthous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:22 IyMoon wrote:On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down. Firing your AG is not obstruction.... You're allowed to fire people as the president Not if the firing obstructs justice. Obstruction of justice by definition is about an otherwise legal act being illegal because of the intent to obstruct. Under your argument no firing can ever be obstruction. Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form. What is Kelly tells him exactly this, but he doesn't care and tries anyway?
Firing the AG is always going to impact something, they always have work. by your logic any firing of the AG is obstructing.
You can't prove that he is firing sessons in order to obstruct justice. Don't get me wrong, I think it is, you just cant prove it
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On November 08 2018 06:24 Panthous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:22 IyMoon wrote:On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down. Firing your AG is not obstruction.... You're allowed to fire people as the president Not if the firing obstructs justice. Obstruction of justice by definition is about an otherwise legal act being illegal because of the intent to obstruct. Under your argument no firing can ever be obstruction. Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form. What is Kelly tells him exactly this, but he doesn't care and tries anyway?
Then Kelly has been plotting Trump's demise all along and he's doing so to finally provide a straw to break the camel's back that is Trump's support in Washington. It's the perfect casus belli.
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On November 08 2018 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form.
I could definitely see Congressional Republicans going the way of the North Carolina GOP and acting to remove from the House the powers needed for investigating Trump and co. I'm not sure if there is anything like that they can actually do, but if there is, I will be completely unsurprised if they do it.
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On November 08 2018 06:26 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:24 Panthous wrote:On November 08 2018 06:22 IyMoon wrote:On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down. Firing your AG is not obstruction.... You're allowed to fire people as the president Not if the firing obstructs justice. Obstruction of justice by definition is about an otherwise legal act being illegal because of the intent to obstruct. Under your argument no firing can ever be obstruction. On November 08 2018 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form. What is Kelly tells him exactly this, but he doesn't care and tries anyway? Firing the AG is always going to impact something, they always have work. by your logic any firing of the AG is obstructing. You can't prove that he is firing sessons in order to obstruct justice. Don't get me wrong, I think it is, you just cant prove it
Trump has admitted he wanted Sessions gone from the moment he learned that Sessions had recused himself. So I don't understand what you are saying. You believe Trump fired Sessions because Sessions was too harsh on marijuana? If Trump's actual reason for firing Sessions was that they had irreconcilable differences on some policy position, of course is isn't obstruction. But he fired Sessions to help end an investigation into his son and himself. And he plastered his actual 'secret' reason all over Twitter several times. So Mueller doesn't even need phone taps to prove this.
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Is there some way the Senate and House can both vote to strip the house of power before January 1?
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On November 08 2018 06:26 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form. I could definitely see Congressional Republicans going the way of the North Carolina GOP and acting to remove from the House the powers needed for investigating Trump and co. I'm not sure if there is anything like that they can actually do, but if there is, I will be completely unsurprised if they do it.
There are a bunch of old, mostly irrelevant SC decisions about just that and they don't augur well for anyone who tries to directly alter a branch's power relative to another. Further, Congress cannot alter its own power as described in the Constitution, it's basically a legislative version of the non-delegation doctrine.
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On November 08 2018 06:26 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:24 Panthous wrote:On November 08 2018 06:22 IyMoon wrote:On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down. Firing your AG is not obstruction.... You're allowed to fire people as the president Not if the firing obstructs justice. Obstruction of justice by definition is about an otherwise legal act being illegal because of the intent to obstruct. Under your argument no firing can ever be obstruction. On November 08 2018 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form. What is Kelly tells him exactly this, but he doesn't care and tries anyway? Then Kelly has been plotting Trump's demise all along and he's doing so to finally provide a straw to break the camel's back that is Trump's support in Washington. It's the perfect casus belli.
What do you think will happen if Pence and Kelly kick Trump out as president? Trump will hold rallies all over the country until he gets what he wants. Or until Kelly and Pence have more support than he has. It will be an actual coup. What if Trump calls for the army to intervene on his behalf? Kelly and Pence have basically zero support under both the Trump base and the independents & democrats.
BTW, people talk about the constitution as if it means anything. Trump controls the supreme court. If there is an actual legal challenge, Trump will win.
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On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down.
In the end this investigation is carrier out by justice department. Dems can try all kinds of things, but in the end if the justice department ends the investigation, it ends. Now this is obviously 'wrong', but 40% of the population doesn't care and those 40% control more than 50% of the vote right now. I'm sorry but you appear to have no clue how any of this works.
He cannot strip the House of power outside of a literal coup d'état using the military. Which is not going to happen.
The justice department does not have the do the investigation. The house can appoint and fund any investigation that they feel is necessary. Trump can disband the entire DoJ and it won't stop the Democrats from starting an investigation.
And no, firing Sessions itself is no Obstructionism if he doesn't instruct Sessions successor to interfere with the Mueller investigation (he probably will but until he does, it doesnt count).
Plus the initial obstruction of justice happened a while ago when he fired the FBI director to stop the FBI investigation.
Which is what caused Mueller to be appointed in the first place.
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If things get that far, it'll be time to fight in the streets, it's not like an impeached Trump's rallies won't be violent, awful affairs with huge numbers turning out in opposition. And all the Repubs who swallowed his bullshot because it gave them power are not gonna join in, it'll be the end of Trumpism as we know it.
Trump does not control the SC lol, as much as fear mongering to the contrary asserts otherwise. Folks like Clarence Thomas would be especially likely to smack Trump down if he tries shit that was settled in 1820.
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On November 08 2018 06:33 Panthous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:26 farvacola wrote:On November 08 2018 06:24 Panthous wrote:On November 08 2018 06:22 IyMoon wrote:On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down. Firing your AG is not obstruction.... You're allowed to fire people as the president Not if the firing obstructs justice. Obstruction of justice by definition is about an otherwise legal act being illegal because of the intent to obstruct. Under your argument no firing can ever be obstruction. On November 08 2018 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form. What is Kelly tells him exactly this, but he doesn't care and tries anyway? Then Kelly has been plotting Trump's demise all along and he's doing so to finally provide a straw to break the camel's back that is Trump's support in Washington. It's the perfect casus belli. What do you think will happen if Pence and Kelly kick Trump out as president? Trump will hold rallies all over the country until he gets what he wants. Or until Kelly and Pence have more support than he has. It will be an actual coup. What if Trump calls for the army to intervene on his behalf? Kelly and Pence have basically zero support under both the Trump base and the independents & democrats. BTW, people talk about the constitution as if it means anything. Trump controls the supreme court. If there is an actual legal challenge, Trump will win. There is control and there is control.
Some of the SC justices will allow small things that can be interpreted one way or another.
None of them will allow Trump to tear up the constitution no matter how hard you shout "they are Republicans"
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On November 08 2018 06:33 Panthous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:26 farvacola wrote:On November 08 2018 06:24 Panthous wrote:On November 08 2018 06:22 IyMoon wrote:On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down. Firing your AG is not obstruction.... You're allowed to fire people as the president Not if the firing obstructs justice. Obstruction of justice by definition is about an otherwise legal act being illegal because of the intent to obstruct. Under your argument no firing can ever be obstruction. On November 08 2018 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Trump can't strip the House of power in any way, shape, or form. What is Kelly tells him exactly this, but he doesn't care and tries anyway? Then Kelly has been plotting Trump's demise all along and he's doing so to finally provide a straw to break the camel's back that is Trump's support in Washington. It's the perfect casus belli. What do you think will happen if Pence and Kelly kick Trump out as president? Trump will hold rallies all over the country until he gets what he wants. Or until Kelly and Pence have more support than he has. It will be an actual coup. What if Trump calls for the army to intervene on his behalf? Kelly and Pence have basically zero support under both the Trump base and the independents & democrats. BTW, people talk about the constitution as if it means anything. Trump controls the supreme court. If there is an actual legal challenge, Trump will win.
No he won't. I doubt even a single conservative justice would support Trump if he tried to fuck with the powers of the legislature, or anything similarly major.
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On November 08 2018 06:35 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 06:20 Panthous wrote:
Look, Trump will break the system to get Mueller to be fired. Either he will be out, or Mueller will be out. And he just 'won' an election. He is going to do whatever it takes to get Mueller out.
Firing Sessions was one more act of obstruction of justice. If Mueller stays and Trump has been innocent so far, Trump is guilty of obstruction as of today.
I don't know US law so I cannot predict what Trump will do. But if needed he will call the house 'fake' and strip it of power. Now, there are probably several easier ways to achieve his goal. But Trump cannot stop because if he stops, he is in huge huge trouble legally and Trump never backs down.
In the end this investigation is carrier out by justice department. Dems can try all kinds of things, but in the end if the justice department ends the investigation, it ends. Now this is obviously 'wrong', but 40% of the population doesn't care and those 40% control more than 50% of the vote right now. I'm sorry but you appear to have no clue how any of this works. Show nested quote +
He cannot strip the House of power outside of a literal coup d'état using the military. Which is not going to happen.
You think Trump will say "Ok, I finally give up. I will go to jail now." Or will he go for the coup, if he really has to? My bet is on the latter.
The justice department does not have the do the investigation. The house can appoint and fund any investigation that they feel is necessary. Trump can disband the entire DoJ and it won't stop the Democrats from starting an investigation.
The house can have their own little investigations. But they have no legal relevance. It can only lead to impeachment. Trump isn't scared of impeachment. He doesn't care for congressional investigations.
And no, firing Sessions itself is no Obstructionism if he doesn't instruct Sessions successor to interfere with the Mueller investigation (he probably will but until he does, it doesnt count).
Plus the initial obstruction of justice happened a while ago when he fired the FBI director to stop the FBI investigation.
Which is what caused Mueller to be appointed in the first place.
No. I agree that just firing one person is not evidence of obstruction of justice, even if you suspect a person is not happy with a certain investigation related to it. For a serious charge you need serious evidence. But this is just one more piece of evidence that paints the legal picture of Trump heavily putting his hand on the scale, misusing his power, in an attempt to obstruct the normal course of justice. Even just the knowledge of the new AG that when Trump is not happy with what Mueller is doing, he will be blamed and fired, that will influence the decisions of the new AG. And this is way beyond that. The acting AG is going to do to Mueller what Trump wanted Sessions to do. There is a reason Trump raged and raged about Sessions not being loyal. He expected Sessions to do something. This new guy will.
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EPT
