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On December 03 2025 03:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2025 02:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 03 2025 02:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 03 2025 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 03 2025 01:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 03 2025 01:29 LightSpectra wrote:
His own disciples seem to be getting tired of it too, judging by the crashing polls and nonstop reports of low morale in virtually every government agency. I didn't realize this was the case, but the evidence does seem to support it: + Show Spoiler +"Enten cited a recent Gallup poll that saw Trump’s net approval rating sink to -24 percent from -1 percent in January. “We’re talking about a drop of over 20 points in the wrong direction for the president of the United States,” the analyst said. The only president who was less popular than Trump at this point in his second term? Richard Nixon, who had an approval rating of -36 points just a few months before he resigned from office. “Anywhere you look this is the second-worst for a president of either party in their second term dating all the way back since the 1940s,” Enten said." https://newrepublic.com/post/203799/donald-trump-popular-poll-richard-nixon "President Donald Trump’s job approval rating has fallen five percentage points to 36%, the lowest of his second term, while disapproval has risen to 60%. ... Both Republicans’ and independents’ ratings of Trump have worsened significantly since last month. Republicans’ approval has fallen seven points to 84%, while independents’ has slipped eight points to 25%. Republicans’ rating is the lowest of Trump’s second term, while independents’ is the worst in either term. Trump’s prior low point among independents, 29%, was last recorded in July and, prior to that, was only seen once before, in August 2017. Meanwhile, Democrats’ rating of the president remains mired in the low single digits (3%)." https://news.gallup.com/poll/699221/trump-approval-rating-drops-new-second-term-low.aspx "316 days into Donald Trump's term: The president's net approval rating is -19%, down 0.6 points since last week. 38% approve, 57% disapprove, 4% not sure. Once the honeymoon is over, presidents tend to lose popularity quickly. But no recent president has fallen so low so quickly as Donald Trump. At the start of his second term public opinion was nearly evenly divided between those who approved of the president and those who did not. Things have since changed—his net approval is now lower than at any point in his first term. Rather than rebounding after the end of America’s longest ever government shutdown, Mr Trump’s popularity has continued to sink. Americans are particularly dissatisfied with Mr Trump’s handling of inflation and the economy, two issues which were key to his re-election last November. Young and non-white voters, many of whom abandoned Democrats because of concerns about the cost of living, are now souring on Mr Trump faster than other groups. It was those voters who fuelled Democratic victories in governor elections in Virginia and New Jersey—an ominous sign for Republicans before next year’s midterm elections." https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker On the other hand, Trump's job approval is better at this point in his presidency than it was last time. https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/approval/donald-trump/approval-ratingHe doesn't have the best spread, but 43% also gives him the highest percentage of people rating him favorably out of political party leaders. www.realclearpolling.com Compared to Nov/Dec of 2017? Sure, but that's only because he set the bar so disastrously low back then. His current 43% is the lowest of his entire second term (so far), which has been consistently decreasing since June. He's polling better than last time. Polling better than Biden at this point, and well above Biden's low. He has the highest favorables of any political party leader. The perception that this is unprecedentedly awful or that his support is "crashing" is basically just spin/copium. It's in the "normal range" after an anomalously high start for Trump. First of all, the whataboutisms of Biden and other politicians are irrelevant here; we're talking about whether or not Trump's approval rating has been decreasing over the past few months. + Show Spoiler +Second, LightSpectra is correct that Trump's polls have been significantly declining. If you think it's an exaggeration to call it a "crash", then okay, but it's certainly not "spin/copium". If anything, it's "spin/copium" to take a conversation about absolute data and turn it into a conversation about relative data to try and reject what the absolute data shows.
Third, your comparison between Trump's first term and Trump's second term is still not what we're talking about, but even so, they're not that far off from each other. Trump's first year of his first term saw a drop from about 45% to about 37% (a decline of 8%, give or take 1 or 2 percentage points), while Trump's first year of his second term saw a drop from about 50% to 43% (a decline of 7%, give or take 1 or 2 percentage points). It's a non sequitur to say that Trump's approval isn't currently crashing just because the decline is almost-but-not-quite-as-bad-as his approval 8 years ago. He also crashed 8 years ago, as have other presidents throughout history, but that's not what we're talking about.
It'd be like me saying "over the weekend, I got hurt - I broke my leg", and you countering with "no you didn't get hurt, because a few years ago you broke your leg and also your arm at the same time, and besides, I know another guy who got decapitated". Trump is irredeemably awful and supporting him is deplorable imo.
Ultimately, you're agreeing with me that Trump is in his typical polling range (which is still higher than his or the last president's at this point) after an anomalously high start despite/because of all the stuff Jankisa mentioned he's doing this time.
On December 03 2025 02:48 Jankisa wrote:
I don't think that making fun of GH or trying to pretend like Trump's approval ratings are insane considering everything he's been doing will make the fact that the USA is in a horrible place right now go away.
Trump is enjoying a better approval rating then Biden during the same time in their presidency, Biden did more or less 0 controversial or fucked up shit in the same period, Trump attacked Iran, tried to shut down Venezuelan air space over a tweet, is obviously planning to invade them, sent militarized ICE all over the USA to brutalize immigrants, declared that there are only 2 genders, pardoned Jan 6th rioters, drug lords, crypto bros, accepted a plane as a bribe from Qatar, started a trade war with the whole world, blew a huge hole in the budget and accelerated inflation.
That's just the tip of the iceberg, there is so much more (didn't even mention Epstein, Ukraine, Comey etc.), and his approval is better then the guy who didn't even start showing serious signs of decline or fucked up the Afghanistan pull out.
This is not good, GH is right to be a doomer over it and he hasn't even mentioned Democrats, this is about Americans being on board with horrible shit, in huge numbers.
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On December 03 2025 03:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2025 03:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 03 2025 02:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 03 2025 02:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 03 2025 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 03 2025 01:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 03 2025 01:29 LightSpectra wrote:
His own disciples seem to be getting tired of it too, judging by the crashing polls and nonstop reports of low morale in virtually every government agency. I didn't realize this was the case, but the evidence does seem to support it: + Show Spoiler +"Enten cited a recent Gallup poll that saw Trump’s net approval rating sink to -24 percent from -1 percent in January. “We’re talking about a drop of over 20 points in the wrong direction for the president of the United States,” the analyst said. The only president who was less popular than Trump at this point in his second term? Richard Nixon, who had an approval rating of -36 points just a few months before he resigned from office. “Anywhere you look this is the second-worst for a president of either party in their second term dating all the way back since the 1940s,” Enten said." https://newrepublic.com/post/203799/donald-trump-popular-poll-richard-nixon "President Donald Trump’s job approval rating has fallen five percentage points to 36%, the lowest of his second term, while disapproval has risen to 60%. ... Both Republicans’ and independents’ ratings of Trump have worsened significantly since last month. Republicans’ approval has fallen seven points to 84%, while independents’ has slipped eight points to 25%. Republicans’ rating is the lowest of Trump’s second term, while independents’ is the worst in either term. Trump’s prior low point among independents, 29%, was last recorded in July and, prior to that, was only seen once before, in August 2017. Meanwhile, Democrats’ rating of the president remains mired in the low single digits (3%)." https://news.gallup.com/poll/699221/trump-approval-rating-drops-new-second-term-low.aspx "316 days into Donald Trump's term: The president's net approval rating is -19%, down 0.6 points since last week. 38% approve, 57% disapprove, 4% not sure. Once the honeymoon is over, presidents tend to lose popularity quickly. But no recent president has fallen so low so quickly as Donald Trump. At the start of his second term public opinion was nearly evenly divided between those who approved of the president and those who did not. Things have since changed—his net approval is now lower than at any point in his first term. Rather than rebounding after the end of America’s longest ever government shutdown, Mr Trump’s popularity has continued to sink. Americans are particularly dissatisfied with Mr Trump’s handling of inflation and the economy, two issues which were key to his re-election last November. Young and non-white voters, many of whom abandoned Democrats because of concerns about the cost of living, are now souring on Mr Trump faster than other groups. It was those voters who fuelled Democratic victories in governor elections in Virginia and New Jersey—an ominous sign for Republicans before next year’s midterm elections." https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker On the other hand, Trump's job approval is better at this point in his presidency than it was last time. https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/approval/donald-trump/approval-ratingHe doesn't have the best spread, but 43% also gives him the highest percentage of people rating him favorably out of political party leaders. www.realclearpolling.com Compared to Nov/Dec of 2017? Sure, but that's only because he set the bar so disastrously low back then. His current 43% is the lowest of his entire second term (so far), which has been consistently decreasing since June. He's polling better than last time. Polling better than Biden at this point, and well above Biden's low. He has the highest favorables of any political party leader. The perception that this is unprecedentedly awful or that his support is "crashing" is basically just spin/copium. It's in the "normal range" after an anomalously high start for Trump. First of all, the whataboutisms of Biden and other politicians are irrelevant here; we're talking about whether or not Trump's approval rating has been decreasing over the past few months. + Show Spoiler +Second, LightSpectra is correct that Trump's polls have been significantly declining. If you think it's an exaggeration to call it a "crash", then okay, but it's certainly not "spin/copium". If anything, it's "spin/copium" to take a conversation about absolute data and turn it into a conversation about relative data to try and reject what the absolute data shows.
Third, your comparison between Trump's first term and Trump's second term is still not what we're talking about, but even so, they're not that far off from each other. Trump's first year of his first term saw a drop from about 45% to about 37% (a decline of 8%, give or take 1 or 2 percentage points), while Trump's first year of his second term saw a drop from about 50% to 43% (a decline of 7%, give or take 1 or 2 percentage points). It's a non sequitur to say that Trump's approval isn't currently crashing just because the decline is almost-but-not-quite-as-bad-as his approval 8 years ago. He also crashed 8 years ago, as have other presidents throughout history, but that's not what we're talking about.
It'd be like me saying "over the weekend, I got hurt - I broke my leg", and you countering with "no you didn't get hurt, because a few years ago you broke your leg and also your arm at the same time, and besides, I know another guy who got decapitated". Trump is irredeemably awful and supporting him is deplorable imo. Ultimately, you're agreeing with me that Trump is in his typical polling range (which is still higher than his or the last president's at this point) after an anomalously high start despite/because of all the stuff Jankisa mentioned he's doing this time. Show nested quote +On December 03 2025 02:48 Jankisa wrote:
I don't think that making fun of GH or trying to pretend like Trump's approval ratings are insane considering everything he's been doing will make the fact that the USA is in a horrible place right now go away.
Trump is enjoying a better approval rating then Biden during the same time in their presidency, Biden did more or less 0 controversial or fucked up shit in the same period, Trump attacked Iran, tried to shut down Venezuelan air space over a tweet, is obviously planning to invade them, sent militarized ICE all over the USA to brutalize immigrants, declared that there are only 2 genders, pardoned Jan 6th rioters, drug lords, crypto bros, accepted a plane as a bribe from Qatar, started a trade war with the whole world, blew a huge hole in the budget and accelerated inflation.
That's just the tip of the iceberg, there is so much more (didn't even mention Epstein, Ukraine, Comey etc.), and his approval is better then the guy who didn't even start showing serious signs of decline or fucked up the Afghanistan pull out.
This is not good, GH is right to be a doomer over it and he hasn't even mentioned Democrats, this is about Americans being on board with horrible shit, in huge numbers.
My issue isn't with the fact that Trump's first term saw a large decline early on, nor with the fact that Biden also had a large decline. My issue is that you rejected the fact that Trump's second term is also experiencing a large decline, and you brought up other previous declines as a way to pretend like the current decline isn't actually happening. As a response to what LightSpectra correctly pointed out, your pivot was disingenuous. If you wanted to start a completely separate, independent conversation about how presidents experience declines in approval ratings, then I wouldn't have any issue with it... but your comments were created to specifically dismiss what LightSpectra had correctly pointed out.
And I do agree with you that "Trump is irredeemably awful and supporting him is deplorable imo".
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I don't know, polling is weird, I guess, to me, from a perspective of someone watching this overseas, and comparing it to Biden's presidency or even Trump 1, it's completely fucking batshit insane that he's even in the same neighborhood when it comes to his approval rating.
I'm not a statistician or have any sort of deep expertise in to the American political system, but if Americans, after 1 year of seeing what I've been seeing still think that this kind of shit is deserving of support, I'm sorry but that is extremely disheartening to me.
From my observations Trump's floor is 25 %, that's the amount of crazy fundamental Christians and fascists who haven't gotten over the confederacy, but the fact that there is around 15 % of Americans, so around 50 million people who aren't them who still saw the shit that went down over the last year and can say, yup, this has my stamp of approval is fucking depressing.
Whether that % is 15 , 20 or 10, it's still an insane number to me, I'm happy it's going down, but I think I can still feel depressed over it being so fucking high.
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It's absolutely valid to be depressed about it. I'm not going to say the world is bright and beautiful because only a third of the country is cool with psychopathic lawlessness and corruption. Relative to other points in history though, there's good reason to be optimistic. More people were against legalizing gay marriage than currently support Trump for most of history. More people supported segregation and Jim Crow laws than currently support Trump. After the total wipeout on election night last month, Republicans were sullen. They didn't go around saying "nothing to fear, we still have 36% support".
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On December 03 2025 03:53 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2025 03:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 03 2025 03:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 03 2025 02:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 03 2025 02:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 03 2025 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 03 2025 01:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 03 2025 01:29 LightSpectra wrote:
His own disciples seem to be getting tired of it too, judging by the crashing polls and nonstop reports of low morale in virtually every government agency. I didn't realize this was the case, but the evidence does seem to support it: + Show Spoiler +"Enten cited a recent Gallup poll that saw Trump’s net approval rating sink to -24 percent from -1 percent in January. “We’re talking about a drop of over 20 points in the wrong direction for the president of the United States,” the analyst said. The only president who was less popular than Trump at this point in his second term? Richard Nixon, who had an approval rating of -36 points just a few months before he resigned from office. “Anywhere you look this is the second-worst for a president of either party in their second term dating all the way back since the 1940s,” Enten said." https://newrepublic.com/post/203799/donald-trump-popular-poll-richard-nixon "President Donald Trump’s job approval rating has fallen five percentage points to 36%, the lowest of his second term, while disapproval has risen to 60%. ... Both Republicans’ and independents’ ratings of Trump have worsened significantly since last month. Republicans’ approval has fallen seven points to 84%, while independents’ has slipped eight points to 25%. Republicans’ rating is the lowest of Trump’s second term, while independents’ is the worst in either term. Trump’s prior low point among independents, 29%, was last recorded in July and, prior to that, was only seen once before, in August 2017. Meanwhile, Democrats’ rating of the president remains mired in the low single digits (3%)." https://news.gallup.com/poll/699221/trump-approval-rating-drops-new-second-term-low.aspx "316 days into Donald Trump's term: The president's net approval rating is -19%, down 0.6 points since last week. 38% approve, 57% disapprove, 4% not sure. Once the honeymoon is over, presidents tend to lose popularity quickly. But no recent president has fallen so low so quickly as Donald Trump. At the start of his second term public opinion was nearly evenly divided between those who approved of the president and those who did not. Things have since changed—his net approval is now lower than at any point in his first term. Rather than rebounding after the end of America’s longest ever government shutdown, Mr Trump’s popularity has continued to sink. Americans are particularly dissatisfied with Mr Trump’s handling of inflation and the economy, two issues which were key to his re-election last November. Young and non-white voters, many of whom abandoned Democrats because of concerns about the cost of living, are now souring on Mr Trump faster than other groups. It was those voters who fuelled Democratic victories in governor elections in Virginia and New Jersey—an ominous sign for Republicans before next year’s midterm elections." https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker On the other hand, Trump's job approval is better at this point in his presidency than it was last time. https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/approval/donald-trump/approval-ratingHe doesn't have the best spread, but 43% also gives him the highest percentage of people rating him favorably out of political party leaders. www.realclearpolling.com Compared to Nov/Dec of 2017? Sure, but that's only because he set the bar so disastrously low back then. His current 43% is the lowest of his entire second term (so far), which has been consistently decreasing since June. He's polling better than last time. Polling better than Biden at this point, and well above Biden's low. He has the highest favorables of any political party leader. The perception that this is unprecedentedly awful or that his support is "crashing" is basically just spin/copium. It's in the "normal range" after an anomalously high start for Trump. First of all, the whataboutisms of Biden and other politicians are irrelevant here; we're talking about whether or not Trump's approval rating has been decreasing over the past few months. + Show Spoiler +Second, LightSpectra is correct that Trump's polls have been significantly declining. If you think it's an exaggeration to call it a "crash", then okay, but it's certainly not "spin/copium". If anything, it's "spin/copium" to take a conversation about absolute data and turn it into a conversation about relative data to try and reject what the absolute data shows.
Third, your comparison between Trump's first term and Trump's second term is still not what we're talking about, but even so, they're not that far off from each other. Trump's first year of his first term saw a drop from about 45% to about 37% (a decline of 8%, give or take 1 or 2 percentage points), while Trump's first year of his second term saw a drop from about 50% to 43% (a decline of 7%, give or take 1 or 2 percentage points). It's a non sequitur to say that Trump's approval isn't currently crashing just because the decline is almost-but-not-quite-as-bad-as his approval 8 years ago. He also crashed 8 years ago, as have other presidents throughout history, but that's not what we're talking about.
It'd be like me saying "over the weekend, I got hurt - I broke my leg", and you countering with "no you didn't get hurt, because a few years ago you broke your leg and also your arm at the same time, and besides, I know another guy who got decapitated". Trump is irredeemably awful and supporting him is deplorable imo. Ultimately, you're agreeing with me that Trump is in his typical polling range (which is still higher than his or the last president's at this point) after an anomalously high start despite/because of all the stuff Jankisa mentioned he's doing this time. On December 03 2025 02:48 Jankisa wrote:
I don't think that making fun of GH or trying to pretend like Trump's approval ratings are insane considering everything he's been doing will make the fact that the USA is in a horrible place right now go away.
Trump is enjoying a better approval rating then Biden during the same time in their presidency, Biden did more or less 0 controversial or fucked up shit in the same period, Trump attacked Iran, tried to shut down Venezuelan air space over a tweet, is obviously planning to invade them, sent militarized ICE all over the USA to brutalize immigrants, declared that there are only 2 genders, pardoned Jan 6th rioters, drug lords, crypto bros, accepted a plane as a bribe from Qatar, started a trade war with the whole world, blew a huge hole in the budget and accelerated inflation.
That's just the tip of the iceberg, there is so much more (didn't even mention Epstein, Ukraine, Comey etc.), and his approval is better then the guy who didn't even start showing serious signs of decline or fucked up the Afghanistan pull out.
This is not good, GH is right to be a doomer over it and he hasn't even mentioned Democrats, this is about Americans being on board with horrible shit, in huge numbers. My issue isn't with the fact that Trump's first term saw a large decline early on, nor with the fact that Biden also had a large decline. My issue is that you rejected the fact that Trump's second term is also experiencing a large decline, and you brought up other previous declines as a way to pretend like the current decline isn't actually happening. As a response to what LightSpectra correctly pointed out, your pivot was disingenuous. If you wanted to start a completely separate, independent conversation about how presidents experience declines in approval ratings, then I wouldn't have any issue with it... but your comments were created to specifically dismiss what LightSpectra had correctly pointed out. And I do agree with you that "Trump is irredeemably awful and supporting him is deplorable imo".
Trump is irredeemably awful and supporting him is deplorable imo
I was pointing out that you were using an absurdly limited metric to support LightSpectra's assertion that "His own disciples seem to be getting tired of it too", and that in context (including his anomalously high support at the start of his term), that was spin/copium.
As usual, people emotionally lashed out at me personally and LightSpectra spun up a strawman about "Trump is more popular than ever".
Jankisa noticed I was providing reasonable context, and now everyone is going to commiserate about how awful it all is.
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On December 03 2025 04:10 LightSpectra wrote:
It's absolutely valid to be depressed about it. I'm not going to say the world is bright and beautiful because only a third of the country is cool with psychopathic lawlessness and corruption. Relative to other points in history though, there's good reason to be optimistic. More people were against legalizing gay marriage than currently support Trump for most of history. More people supported segregation and Jim Crow laws than currently support Trump. After the total wipeout on election night last month, Republicans were sullen. They didn't go around saying "nothing to fear, we still have 36% support".
I guess that to me, with my close ties to USA via my job and generally being very immersed in the culture, it hits hard that after 10 years people haven't figured Trump out, on the contrary, his second, more extreme term seems to be better received (if only so slightly) then his first, more tame one.
A lot of the social progress you mention has been sliding back, we had Roe v Wade reversed, post-op Trans people are now legally obligated to be dead named by officials, protections in military and many other places are being reversed, how far are we from gay marriage getting reversed?
When asked if they think same-sex marriage should be legal, 54% said yes, 33% said no, and 13% were unsure. These numbers mark a considerable drop from just a few years ago, when Gallup’s 2021 poll found that a record-high 70% of Americans supported same-sex marriage.
Source. This is a 16 % drop in 4 years, a percentage up for Trump (compared to his previous term) amidst him starting trade wars and insulting allies, abandoning Ukraine and having a treasonous envoy teach Russians how to butter him up is not something that makes me optimistic, no matter how well local elections went.
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Has the admiral who was behind the boat strikes, according to the White House, been summoned to a congressional hearing yet? Seems like the easiest way to get bottom of things. Just have the members of the military answer the questions until it becomes clear who gave the commands.
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EPT
