|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
It seems that Trump referred to the previous payouts he received in his post about Kimmel's return. This should make it easy for Disney and ABC to point out any free speech violations, but that will still require a fight in court, and they may still opt to capitulate. However, Trump's response makes them look really bad as it highlights the nature of any deal they make in future. It is saying, "I already got ransom from you once. How much more will I have you pay this time?" Honestly, some other country should probably question the companies about what kind of access and influence they allow the USA to have. Disney would be interesting, given the significant impact it has had on culture over the past decade. Especially with how much talk about hybrid warfare, foreign influence and propaganda has been talked about in the past decade and how there is a desire to police it more in the future. For example, could Disney movies require some notice about content being approved by the USA government when presented in other countries?
|
this map supposedly shows cities where the owners of the cable network forbid local stations to show JKL.
The Owners are "Sinclair" and "Nexstar"
"Nexstar" needs a special permit from the FCC to aquire "Tegna" ... because this would give Nexstar a grip on 80% on all TV-Stations.
Maybe TV is "old". But it reaches a lot of people. And it's showing that the world needs Trust busting again. More jobs, less profit for owners, less potential to "Liquify Reality" via your market power.
|
On September 24 2025 12:20 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 11:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 11:41 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 09:18 Razyda wrote:On September 23 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:This. This is the sort of protesting that need to be happening in the US right now ROME (AP) — Thousands of protesters and strikers calling for solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza took to the streets in Italy on Monday, with some storming Milan’s central train station and clashing violently with police.
Italy’s grassroots unions, which represent hundreds of thousands of people ranging from schoolteachers to metalworkers, called for a 24-hour general strike in both public and private sectors, including public transportation, trains, schools and ports.
The strike caused disruptions across the country, with long delays for national trains and limited public transport in major cities, including Rome. apnews.com You sure about that? + Show Spoiler +Some more footage from said "strike" Yes. What do you think Maidan looked like? + Show Spoiler +Mate I am Polish born in seventies, you sure you want to go down this route? because I remember my bus being stopped by armed soldiers, I remember shots being fired at protestors, because I effing heard them. See my issue with your view is not even that you are socialist. It is that you are dishonest about it. General strike my ass. You do know what is needed, but you are reluctant to spell it out You have exactly 0 chance of peaceful gaining of power and everyone knows it. The only way you gain power is a slaughter. My biggest issue with you is that you are not admitting it. Slaughtering people is how capitalism stays in power. The US has been at war basically its entire existence. One thing that bugs me about capitalists and their lackeys is that they pretend that the status quo isn't already insanely/unacceptably violent. Dude what are you doing here? What you dont understand ?? Slaughtering people is the only effing way socialism gets a traction. Do you think I am going to willingly give up what I earned because it is right thing to do? F..k that I am going to use every available loophole to make sure it is going to my kids.
Soviet-style command economy is not the only form of socialism. There's also worker cooperatives, which work the same way as capitalist corporations except the profits are relatively equally shared among the workers instead of being siphoned to executive bonuses and shareholders. There is no violence inherent in that system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives
|
On September 24 2025 17:20 Phyanketto wrote:
Imagine if an actually nice country went communist. I'm not a communist nor socialist but using countries that were already authoritarian shitholes like warlord era China or tsarist Russia as proof communism can't work or always resulrs in a materially inferior country is mypoic. Imagine a communist France or Japan. It would be very different because they weren't trying to leapfrog a whole stage of economic development.
That would be interesting, but I think the big issue is how do you have communism without authoritarianism and the massive corruption that comes with it. Despite what tankies seem to think the biggest issues that communist countries have faced are not from outside capitalists but rather from those in power (from the very top all the way down). It is the communists that take more for themselves and there does not seem to be a effective way to curtail this.
|
On September 24 2025 22:17 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 12:20 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 11:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 11:41 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 09:18 Razyda wrote:On September 23 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:This. This is the sort of protesting that need to be happening in the US right now ROME (AP) — Thousands of protesters and strikers calling for solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza took to the streets in Italy on Monday, with some storming Milan’s central train station and clashing violently with police.
Italy’s grassroots unions, which represent hundreds of thousands of people ranging from schoolteachers to metalworkers, called for a 24-hour general strike in both public and private sectors, including public transportation, trains, schools and ports.
The strike caused disruptions across the country, with long delays for national trains and limited public transport in major cities, including Rome. apnews.comhttps://twitter.com/il_pucciarelli/status/1970084774174724579 You sure about that? + Show Spoiler + Yes. What do you think Maidan looked like? + Show Spoiler +Mate I am Polish born in seventies, you sure you want to go down this route? because I remember my bus being stopped by armed soldiers, I remember shots being fired at protestors, because I effing heard them. See my issue with your view is not even that you are socialist. It is that you are dishonest about it. General strike my ass. You do know what is needed, but you are reluctant to spell it out You have exactly 0 chance of peaceful gaining of power and everyone knows it. The only way you gain power is a slaughter. My biggest issue with you is that you are not admitting it. Slaughtering people is how capitalism stays in power. The US has been at war basically its entire existence. One thing that bugs me about capitalists and their lackeys is that they pretend that the status quo isn't already insanely/unacceptably violent. Dude what are you doing here? What you dont understand ?? Slaughtering people is the only effing way socialism gets a traction. Do you think I am going to willingly give up what I earned because it is right thing to do? F..k that I am going to use every available loophole to make sure it is going to my kids. Soviet-style command economy is not the only form of socialism. There's also worker cooperatives, which work the same way as capitalist corporations except the profits are relatively equally shared among the workers instead of being siphoned to executive bonuses and shareholders. There is no violence inherent in that system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives
These are not really communist/socialist, they work perfectly fine in a capitalist system. As you say, it's just a diffrent way of paying out a companies earnings/dividends. You can also still easily pay the "owner" or higher ups more than the "lowly" worker with this structure...
Afaik no one has a real problem with it. Tons of companies actually started like that, when it was just the few owners starting their company.
Therefore capitalism clearly isn't the problem?
|
Trump is so mad that his censoring of Kimmel didn't work, and Trump continues to attack ABC:
"I can’t believe ABC Fake News gave Jimmy Kimmel his job back. The White House was told by ABC that his Show was cancelled! Something happened between then and now because his audience is GONE, and his “talent” was never there. Why would they want someone back who does so poorly, who’s not funny, and who puts the Network in jeopardy by playing 99% positive Democrat GARBAGE. He is yet another arm of the DNC and, to the best of my knowledge, that would be a major Illegal Campaign Contribution. I think we’re going to test ABC out on this. Let’s see how we do. Last time I went after them, they gave me $16 Million Dollars. This one sounds even more lucrative. A true bunch of losers! Let Jimmy Kimmel rot in his bad Ratings." https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/115256938634035559
More information here: https://www.axios.com/2025/09/24/trump-jimmy-kimmel-return-abc
|
On September 24 2025 22:37 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 22:17 LightSpectra wrote:On September 24 2025 12:20 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 11:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 11:41 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 09:18 Razyda wrote:On September 23 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:This. This is the sort of protesting that need to be happening in the US right now ROME (AP) — Thousands of protesters and strikers calling for solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza took to the streets in Italy on Monday, with some storming Milan’s central train station and clashing violently with police.
Italy’s grassroots unions, which represent hundreds of thousands of people ranging from schoolteachers to metalworkers, called for a 24-hour general strike in both public and private sectors, including public transportation, trains, schools and ports.
The strike caused disruptions across the country, with long delays for national trains and limited public transport in major cities, including Rome. apnews.comhttps://twitter.com/il_pucciarelli/status/1970084774174724579 You sure about that? + Show Spoiler + Yes. What do you think Maidan looked like? + Show Spoiler +Mate I am Polish born in seventies, you sure you want to go down this route? because I remember my bus being stopped by armed soldiers, I remember shots being fired at protestors, because I effing heard them. See my issue with your view is not even that you are socialist. It is that you are dishonest about it. General strike my ass. You do know what is needed, but you are reluctant to spell it out You have exactly 0 chance of peaceful gaining of power and everyone knows it. The only way you gain power is a slaughter. My biggest issue with you is that you are not admitting it. Slaughtering people is how capitalism stays in power. The US has been at war basically its entire existence. One thing that bugs me about capitalists and their lackeys is that they pretend that the status quo isn't already insanely/unacceptably violent. Dude what are you doing here? What you dont understand ?? Slaughtering people is the only effing way socialism gets a traction. Do you think I am going to willingly give up what I earned because it is right thing to do? F..k that I am going to use every available loophole to make sure it is going to my kids. Soviet-style command economy is not the only form of socialism. There's also worker cooperatives, which work the same way as capitalist corporations except the profits are relatively equally shared among the workers instead of being siphoned to executive bonuses and shareholders. There is no violence inherent in that system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives These are not really communist/socialist, they work perfectly fine in a capitalist system. As you say, it's just a diffrent way of paying out a companies earnings/dividends.
What do you mean by "in a capitalist system"? Would it still be "a capitalist system" if every industry was either nationalized or a worker co-op?
You can also still easily pay the "owner" or higher ups more than the "lowly" worker with this structure...
The owners are the workers themselves. They could democratically vote to distribute all the profits to an executive, but why would they do that?
Afaik no one has a real problem with it.
There's a factory in Greece called VIO.ME that turned into a worker co-op after the owner abandoned it and the employees decided to keep it running. It has been frequently attacked by the wealthy because they don't want it to exist as a successful example of a non-capitalist mode of production. It's hardly the only example of people having problems with co-ops.
|
United States44353 Posts
On September 24 2025 22:37 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 22:17 LightSpectra wrote:On September 24 2025 12:20 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 11:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 11:41 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 09:18 Razyda wrote:On September 23 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:This. This is the sort of protesting that need to be happening in the US right now ROME (AP) — Thousands of protesters and strikers calling for solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza took to the streets in Italy on Monday, with some storming Milan’s central train station and clashing violently with police.
Italy’s grassroots unions, which represent hundreds of thousands of people ranging from schoolteachers to metalworkers, called for a 24-hour general strike in both public and private sectors, including public transportation, trains, schools and ports.
The strike caused disruptions across the country, with long delays for national trains and limited public transport in major cities, including Rome. apnews.comhttps://twitter.com/il_pucciarelli/status/1970084774174724579 You sure about that? + Show Spoiler + Yes. What do you think Maidan looked like? + Show Spoiler +Mate I am Polish born in seventies, you sure you want to go down this route? because I remember my bus being stopped by armed soldiers, I remember shots being fired at protestors, because I effing heard them. See my issue with your view is not even that you are socialist. It is that you are dishonest about it. General strike my ass. You do know what is needed, but you are reluctant to spell it out You have exactly 0 chance of peaceful gaining of power and everyone knows it. The only way you gain power is a slaughter. My biggest issue with you is that you are not admitting it. Slaughtering people is how capitalism stays in power. The US has been at war basically its entire existence. One thing that bugs me about capitalists and their lackeys is that they pretend that the status quo isn't already insanely/unacceptably violent. Dude what are you doing here? What you dont understand ?? Slaughtering people is the only effing way socialism gets a traction. Do you think I am going to willingly give up what I earned because it is right thing to do? F..k that I am going to use every available loophole to make sure it is going to my kids. Soviet-style command economy is not the only form of socialism. There's also worker cooperatives, which work the same way as capitalist corporations except the profits are relatively equally shared among the workers instead of being siphoned to executive bonuses and shareholders. There is no violence inherent in that system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives These are not really communist/socialist, they work perfectly fine in a capitalist system. As you say, it's just a diffrent way of paying out a companies earnings/dividends. You can also still easily pay the "owner" or higher ups more than the "lowly" worker with this structure... Afaik no one has a real problem with it. Tons of companies actually started like that, when it was just the few owners starting their company. Therefore capitalism clearly isn't the problem?
I think you’re confusing your terms here. I think you’re trying to say that cooperatives aren’t incompatible with a market system in which supply and demand forces create profit incentives. You’re correct there. But a capitalist system is explicitly one in which capital, as opposed to labour, owns the means of production and benefits from the profits.
You’re saying there is no contradiction between worker co-ops and capitalism. There is, and it’s just about the most fundamental contradiction there could be. They can’t coexist, if capital isn’t owning the means of production then it ain’t capitalism.
But I don’t disagree that worker owned co-ops are a valid model within market economies. You’re right to bring that up.
|
On September 24 2025 14:02 decafchicken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 12:20 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 11:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 11:41 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 09:18 Razyda wrote:On September 23 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:This. This is the sort of protesting that need to be happening in the US right now ROME (AP) — Thousands of protesters and strikers calling for solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza took to the streets in Italy on Monday, with some storming Milan’s central train station and clashing violently with police.
Italy’s grassroots unions, which represent hundreds of thousands of people ranging from schoolteachers to metalworkers, called for a 24-hour general strike in both public and private sectors, including public transportation, trains, schools and ports.
The strike caused disruptions across the country, with long delays for national trains and limited public transport in major cities, including Rome. apnews.comhttps://twitter.com/il_pucciarelli/status/1970084774174724579 You sure about that? + Show Spoiler + Yes. What do you think Maidan looked like? + Show Spoiler +Mate I am Polish born in seventies, you sure you want to go down this route? because I remember my bus being stopped by armed soldiers, I remember shots being fired at protestors, because I effing heard them. See my issue with your view is not even that you are socialist. It is that you are dishonest about it. General strike my ass. You do know what is needed, but you are reluctant to spell it out You have exactly 0 chance of peaceful gaining of power and everyone knows it. The only way you gain power is a slaughter. My biggest issue with you is that you are not admitting it. Slaughtering people is how capitalism stays in power. The US has been at war basically its entire existence. One thing that bugs me about capitalists and their lackeys is that they pretend that the status quo isn't already insanely/unacceptably violent. Dude what are you doing here? What you dont understand ?? Slaughtering people is the only effing way socialism gets a traction. Do you think I am going to willingly give up what I earned because it is right thing to do? F..k that I am going to use every available loophole to make sure it is going to my kids. If you think people only deserve what they earn, why are you so eager to give what you earned to your kids that haven't? Socialism is just nepotism for everyone.
The driving force of progress in all human history and pre-history is fundamentally to take care of our descendants.
When you earn something, it's up to you who, if anyone, you give it to, because by the act of earning it, it became yours. If you sacrifice your lifestyle and your children's lifestyle so you can leave them in a better place for their future, that's your right.
But whether children or not, it's yours. Tucker Carlson is certainly equally in his rights to gift $10k to a stranger as to give it to his own children, for example. Neither is unfair because the stranger or the child asked or didn't ask for it. What's unfair would be for one to steal $10k from Tucker Carlson just because he also gave to someone else and he still has some left and I want some why can't I have some and boo hoo.
Capitalism is "I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy."
Socialism is "I must study Marxism so we can try to figure out how to not all die of famine the very first year after we kill and steal from all the rich." Sure it'd be nice to think about a Star Trek future where everyone is in on the greater good, but it's not happening from the revolutionary left which is too hateful to unite anyone, too incompetent to allocate resources, and too nihilistic to move the human spirit.
We don't need to give everyone something equal and hope to god they then do shit. Instead, we've devised an ingenious system where we give people money specifically for doing shit. This gets the shit done, and also gets them the money. This is why despite my first sentence being true, most transacted money in the world is not gifts to children. It's people exchanging goods and services in the market. To take care of themselves and their kin. If you take away the fruits, you will lose the sacrifice and the efforts that created the fruits to begin with. People will not bother being productive if they can't keep what they produce.
|
Socialism doesn't work because it's contrary to human nature. That's why the CIA or U.S. military had to intervene to shut down dozens of left-wing revolutions in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. Because human nature.
|
United States44353 Posts
Oblade writing long posts when he could just say “I don’t really know anything about socialism or capitalism”. Not a great use of his time but nothing of value was lost.
|
United States44353 Posts
The basic question amounts to how to allocate value created by labour.
A man performs work and through his labour transforms something from a low value state, such as seeds, to a high value state, such as grain. Who deserves to benefit from that labour?
Collectivist thinks that everyone in the village, assuming that all labour, should benefit. So the farmer and the miller both profit. The farmer with the field that flooded and had no harvest should benefit and in future years when his harvest is good others will benefit from his.
The individualist insists that only the farmer should benefit. He performed the labour, he gets the whole of the increase in value.
The capitalist points out that the field is owned by a fund and that shareholders in that fund need to eat too. The value belongs to them because without the use of their field none of this would have been possible. Also the farmer should work harder because his harvest this year barely exceeded that of his previous best year.
The communist disagrees. Wouldn't the field still be there even if nobody owned it.
|
On September 24 2025 22:17 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 12:20 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 11:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 11:41 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 09:18 Razyda wrote:On September 23 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:This. This is the sort of protesting that need to be happening in the US right now ROME (AP) — Thousands of protesters and strikers calling for solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza took to the streets in Italy on Monday, with some storming Milan’s central train station and clashing violently with police.
Italy’s grassroots unions, which represent hundreds of thousands of people ranging from schoolteachers to metalworkers, called for a 24-hour general strike in both public and private sectors, including public transportation, trains, schools and ports.
The strike caused disruptions across the country, with long delays for national trains and limited public transport in major cities, including Rome. apnews.comhttps://twitter.com/il_pucciarelli/status/1970084774174724579 You sure about that? + Show Spoiler + Yes. What do you think Maidan looked like? + Show Spoiler +Mate I am Polish born in seventies, you sure you want to go down this route? because I remember my bus being stopped by armed soldiers, I remember shots being fired at protestors, because I effing heard them. See my issue with your view is not even that you are socialist. It is that you are dishonest about it. General strike my ass. You do know what is needed, but you are reluctant to spell it out You have exactly 0 chance of peaceful gaining of power and everyone knows it. The only way you gain power is a slaughter. My biggest issue with you is that you are not admitting it. Slaughtering people is how capitalism stays in power. The US has been at war basically its entire existence. One thing that bugs me about capitalists and their lackeys is that they pretend that the status quo isn't already insanely/unacceptably violent. Dude what are you doing here? What you dont understand ?? Slaughtering people is the only effing way socialism gets a traction. Do you think I am going to willingly give up what I earned because it is right thing to do? F..k that I am going to use every available loophole to make sure it is going to my kids. Soviet-style command economy is not the only form of socialism. There's also worker cooperatives, which work the same way as capitalist corporations except the profits are relatively equally shared among the workers instead of being siphoned to executive bonuses and shareholders. There is no violence inherent in that system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives
Every discussion involving the word socialism on this thread is a dumpster fire because no one wants to explain if they mean “Denmark”, “Venezuela”, the centre left socialist parties of France and Spain or some Bakhounin utopia, or something else.
That confusion is sometimes voluntary; Republicans disingenuously pretend that we talk about Venezuela when their opponents talk about Denmark. Like, socialism as having high taxes and strong welfare is conflated with Leninist dictatorship on purpose.
Then there is the American progressives, and then we know even less what we are talking about. I don’t think they know themselves.
When you talk socialism to a Polish dude born in the 70s, yeah, he envisions the nightmarish distopia that was socialism in Eastern Europe or on the Soviet Union. Anyone who wants that is out of his freakin mind.
|
On September 24 2025 23:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 22:37 Velr wrote:On September 24 2025 22:17 LightSpectra wrote:On September 24 2025 12:20 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 11:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 11:41 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 09:18 Razyda wrote:On September 23 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:This. This is the sort of protesting that need to be happening in the US right now ROME (AP) — Thousands of protesters and strikers calling for solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza took to the streets in Italy on Monday, with some storming Milan’s central train station and clashing violently with police.
Italy’s grassroots unions, which represent hundreds of thousands of people ranging from schoolteachers to metalworkers, called for a 24-hour general strike in both public and private sectors, including public transportation, trains, schools and ports.
The strike caused disruptions across the country, with long delays for national trains and limited public transport in major cities, including Rome. apnews.comhttps://twitter.com/il_pucciarelli/status/1970084774174724579 You sure about that? + Show Spoiler + Yes. What do you think Maidan looked like? + Show Spoiler +Mate I am Polish born in seventies, you sure you want to go down this route? because I remember my bus being stopped by armed soldiers, I remember shots being fired at protestors, because I effing heard them. See my issue with your view is not even that you are socialist. It is that you are dishonest about it. General strike my ass. You do know what is needed, but you are reluctant to spell it out You have exactly 0 chance of peaceful gaining of power and everyone knows it. The only way you gain power is a slaughter. My biggest issue with you is that you are not admitting it. Slaughtering people is how capitalism stays in power. The US has been at war basically its entire existence. One thing that bugs me about capitalists and their lackeys is that they pretend that the status quo isn't already insanely/unacceptably violent. Dude what are you doing here? What you dont understand ?? Slaughtering people is the only effing way socialism gets a traction. Do you think I am going to willingly give up what I earned because it is right thing to do? F..k that I am going to use every available loophole to make sure it is going to my kids. Soviet-style command economy is not the only form of socialism. There's also worker cooperatives, which work the same way as capitalist corporations except the profits are relatively equally shared among the workers instead of being siphoned to executive bonuses and shareholders. There is no violence inherent in that system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives These are not really communist/socialist, they work perfectly fine in a capitalist system. As you say, it's just a diffrent way of paying out a companies earnings/dividends. You can also still easily pay the "owner" or higher ups more than the "lowly" worker with this structure... Afaik no one has a real problem with it. Tons of companies actually started like that, when it was just the few owners starting their company. Therefore capitalism clearly isn't the problem? I think you’re confusing your terms here. I think you’re trying to say that cooperatives aren’t incompatible with a market system in which supply and demand forces create profit incentives. You’re correct there. But a capitalist system is explicitly one in which capital, as opposed to labour, owns the means of production and benefits from the profits. You’re saying there is no contradiction between worker co-ops and capitalism. There is, and it’s just about the most fundamental contradiction there could be. They can’t coexist, if capital isn’t owning the means of production then it ain’t capitalism. But I don’t disagree that worker owned co-ops are a valid model within market economies. You’re right to bring that up.
Isn't or coduln't that issue easily be sidestepped within a capitalist framework by the company guidelines mandating that all employes are given equal shares of the company and define that only employees are eglible to own "shares?
Such a companies shares obviously couldn't be traded freely but it still would be capitalist and could have access to other methods of getting additional capital/money at the markets by giving out obligations and the like?
Or would you say that doesn't count as worker co-op or capitalist anymore (while being able to exist in a capitalist system)?
|
On September 24 2025 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That confusion is sometimes voluntary; Republicans disingenuously pretend that we talk about Venezuela when we talk about Denmark. Like, socialism as having high taxes and strong welfare is conflated with Leninist dictatorship on purpose.
Then there is the American progressives, and then we know even less what we are talking about. I don’t think they know themselves.
Sorry, but when have American progressives been unclear about this? We've been saying "Nordic model" for over ten years.
And if you want to say "that's not true socialism," we know. If you need me to explain the joke: Republicans have been calling everything to the left of hunting the homeless for sport "socialism" for the past century, so we've embraced it instead of continuing to argue about the original meaning of the word.
|
Capitalism is "I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy."
Socialism is "I must study Marxism so we can try to figure out how to not all die of famine the very first year after we kill and steal from all the rich."
This is Elon Musk is doing a Kpop greeting level of dishonest.
On September 25 2025 00:03 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That confusion is sometimes voluntary; Republicans disingenuously pretend that we talk about Venezuela when we talk about Denmark. Like, socialism as having high taxes and strong welfare is conflated with Leninist dictatorship on purpose.
Then there is the American progressives, and then we know even less what we are talking about. I don’t think they know themselves. Sorry, but when have American progressives been unclear about this? We've been saying "Nordic model" for over ten years.
It's pretty easy to find the people that are arguing for way more socialism/communism than the Nordic model. Not people with actual power but the Twitter/TikTok progressives like GH the Republicans are fighting constantly while acting as if they were mainstream democrats. Republicans made these "idealists" into their very own perfect usefull idiots.
|
On September 25 2025 00:07 Velr wrote:
It's pretty easy to find the people that are arguing for way more socialism/communism than the Nordic model. Not people with actual power but the Twitter/TikTok progressives the Republicans are fighting constantly, basically people like GH.
Tankies usually don't call themselves "progressive" and progressives don't want them among us.
The only mainstream tankie in American politics is Tulsi Gabbard, and like GH, the only noteworthy thing she ever did before becoming a Republican was repeat Republican talking points.
|
United States44353 Posts
On September 25 2025 00:03 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 23:07 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2025 22:37 Velr wrote:On September 24 2025 22:17 LightSpectra wrote:On September 24 2025 12:20 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 11:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 11:41 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Yes. What do you think Maidan looked like? + Show Spoiler +Mate I am Polish born in seventies, you sure you want to go down this route? because I remember my bus being stopped by armed soldiers, I remember shots being fired at protestors, because I effing heard them. See my issue with your view is not even that you are socialist. It is that you are dishonest about it. General strike my ass. You do know what is needed, but you are reluctant to spell it out You have exactly 0 chance of peaceful gaining of power and everyone knows it. The only way you gain power is a slaughter. My biggest issue with you is that you are not admitting it. Slaughtering people is how capitalism stays in power. The US has been at war basically its entire existence. One thing that bugs me about capitalists and their lackeys is that they pretend that the status quo isn't already insanely/unacceptably violent. Dude what are you doing here? What you dont understand ?? Slaughtering people is the only effing way socialism gets a traction. Do you think I am going to willingly give up what I earned because it is right thing to do? F..k that I am going to use every available loophole to make sure it is going to my kids. Soviet-style command economy is not the only form of socialism. There's also worker cooperatives, which work the same way as capitalist corporations except the profits are relatively equally shared among the workers instead of being siphoned to executive bonuses and shareholders. There is no violence inherent in that system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_cooperatives These are not really communist/socialist, they work perfectly fine in a capitalist system. As you say, it's just a diffrent way of paying out a companies earnings/dividends. You can also still easily pay the "owner" or higher ups more than the "lowly" worker with this structure... Afaik no one has a real problem with it. Tons of companies actually started like that, when it was just the few owners starting their company. Therefore capitalism clearly isn't the problem? I think you’re confusing your terms here. I think you’re trying to say that cooperatives aren’t incompatible with a market system in which supply and demand forces create profit incentives. You’re correct there. But a capitalist system is explicitly one in which capital, as opposed to labour, owns the means of production and benefits from the profits. You’re saying there is no contradiction between worker co-ops and capitalism. There is, and it’s just about the most fundamental contradiction there could be. They can’t coexist, if capital isn’t owning the means of production then it ain’t capitalism. But I don’t disagree that worker owned co-ops are a valid model within market economies. You’re right to bring that up. Isn't or coduln't that issue easily be sidestepped within a capitalist framework by the company guidelines mandating that all employes are given equal shares of the company and define that only employees are eglible to own "shares? Such a companies shares obviously couldn't be traded freely but it still would be capitalist and could have access to other methods of getting additional capital/money at the markets by giving out obligations and the like? Or would you say that doesn't count as worker co-op or capitalist anymore while being able to exist in a capitalist system?
A market system <> a capitalist system. In a capitalist system the means of production are owned by capital, ownership stakes/interests in the profit of a business have nothing to do with labour, they're simply bought and sold.
You're using them interchangeably but they're not the same thing. A co-op can exist in a market system but worker ownership of the means of production is antithetical to a capitalist system.
Of course all "capitalist" economies are really mixed economies but I still think it's important to be clear on this distinction because people using the wrong language here is actually very damaging.
There are questions of shareholder ownership vs worker ownership, market economies vs command economies, individualism vs collectivism, capitalism vs communism and these are very different questions.
If I understand your point correctly you are trying to say that worker ownership is possible within a market economy. It absolutely is, you're right, no disagreement there. But what you're saying is that worker ownership is possible within a shareholder ownership model and that just doesn't make sense.
The reason I'm nitpicking is because "capitalism" is carried extremely hard by market economies and individualism. That's part of what we're seeing in this topic where Oblade is trying to conflate the two and insist that without capitalism you'll work hard but then the government will steal all your money so that you can't pass it on to your kids. But that's not a thing, he's thinking of individualism but he doesn't have a sufficient understanding to use the right words. He's so concerned that someone will steal all the surplus value that he creates through his hard work that he's desperately defending capitalism, the system that assigns surplus value to the capitalist class who perform no labour. Sure, he wants to be able to provide for his kids, but the trust fund kids must first take their fill. Whatever compensation they allow him to keep is his, and he'll pass that on.
Market economies are more efficient. Individualist motivations seem to work better for incentivizing innovation in some situations than collectivist ones. But capitalism as a system for allowing the worker to keep the value they create? We need to challenge that language every time. And you made that same mistake when you argued that capitalism can coexist with worker ownership of the means of production.
|
On September 24 2025 23:22 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2025 14:02 decafchicken wrote:On September 24 2025 12:20 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 11:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 11:41 Razyda wrote:On September 24 2025 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2025 09:18 Razyda wrote:On September 23 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:This. This is the sort of protesting that need to be happening in the US right now ROME (AP) — Thousands of protesters and strikers calling for solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza took to the streets in Italy on Monday, with some storming Milan’s central train station and clashing violently with police.
Italy’s grassroots unions, which represent hundreds of thousands of people ranging from schoolteachers to metalworkers, called for a 24-hour general strike in both public and private sectors, including public transportation, trains, schools and ports.
The strike caused disruptions across the country, with long delays for national trains and limited public transport in major cities, including Rome. apnews.comhttps://twitter.com/il_pucciarelli/status/1970084774174724579 You sure about that? + Show Spoiler + Yes. What do you think Maidan looked like? + Show Spoiler +Mate I am Polish born in seventies, you sure you want to go down this route? because I remember my bus being stopped by armed soldiers, I remember shots being fired at protestors, because I effing heard them. See my issue with your view is not even that you are socialist. It is that you are dishonest about it. General strike my ass. You do know what is needed, but you are reluctant to spell it out You have exactly 0 chance of peaceful gaining of power and everyone knows it. The only way you gain power is a slaughter. My biggest issue with you is that you are not admitting it. Slaughtering people is how capitalism stays in power. The US has been at war basically its entire existence. One thing that bugs me about capitalists and their lackeys is that they pretend that the status quo isn't already insanely/unacceptably violent. Dude what are you doing here? What you dont understand ?? Slaughtering people is the only effing way socialism gets a traction. Do you think I am going to willingly give up what I earned because it is right thing to do? F..k that I am going to use every available loophole to make sure it is going to my kids. If you think people only deserve what they earn, why are you so eager to give what you earned to your kids that haven't? Socialism is just nepotism for everyone. The driving force of progress in all human history and pre-history is fundamentally to take care of our descendants. Your entire post is dogshit but I just wanted to pick out your first sentence.
If the main driving force of humanity was taking care of our descendants, climate change would have been dealt with decades ago because we are actively trying to destroy the ability of our decedents to live.
The driving force is me, myself and I. We have descendants so they can take care of us when we get older and now that pensions take care of us as we get old more and more people stop having descendants.
|
On September 25 2025 00:28 Gorsameth wrote:
We have descendants so they can take care of us when we get older and now that pensions take care of us as we get old more and more people stop having descendants.
What I marked in bold is despicable. This is disgusting attitude.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://preview.redd.it/a-map-of-the-tv-stations-that-will-not-be-airing-jimmy-v0-yfmf641f6zqf1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=7d31f07a431b308d8682a8900eb1e4d1a29f22e7)
