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On July 21 2018 22:08 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:03 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason. You act like we don't know that. Because some people apparently don't know that. In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works. Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I thought this discussion was about people voting for third choices/write-ins/whatever. If you're actively voting Trump you deserve absolute condemnation. Its a 2 party system. Voting third choice/write-in/not voting is only a little less bad then voting for the other guy. and "I'd rather have Trump then Clinton" sure does imply to me that you would vote for one over the other.
It's exponentially better, also better than voting Clinton in the primary. It also implies you'd prefer neither. Forcing shitty choices and then people refusing to be forced into those 'choices' is the most decent thing to do. Not something I expect everyone to do, but it's the last position deserving of any shame or responsibility for Trump.
On July 21 2018 22:08 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:06 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 21:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason. You act like we don't know that. Because some people apparently don't know that. In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works. Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face. When Clinton cleared her Democratic competition and promoted Trump as the nominee (knowing him better than the rest of the country) she's just a different kind of bad. Perpetuating that kind of 'choice' is a hopeless endeavor. It appears by all measures that 4 years of Trump isn't enough for liberals to learn though. Or, like many others, Clinton didn't think America's were as gullible as they turned out to be are and Trump as an opponent made sense to maximize the chance of winning because whoever would vote for someone as horrible as Trump. Turned out a lot more Americans liked an openly racist misogynist snake oil salesmen then people suspected. You sure give her a lot more leeway for jeopardizing the future of the country than you do progressives.
Seriously. It was never a functional argument.
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On July 21 2018 22:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:06 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 21:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason. You act like we don't know that. Because some people apparently don't know that. In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works. Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face. When Clinton cleared her Democratic competition and promoted Trump as the nominee (knowing him better than the rest of the country) she's just a different kind of bad. Perpetuating that kind of 'choice' is a hopeless endeavor. It appears by all measures that 4 years of Trump isn't enough for liberals to learn though. Or, like many others, Clinton didn't think America's were as gullible as they turned out to be are and Trump as an opponent made sense to maximize the chance of winning because whoever would vote for someone as horrible as Trump. Turned out a lot more Americans liked an openly racist misogynist snake oil salesmen then people suspected. "Made sense" from a maniacally cynical perspective maybe. Also took a great deal of obliviousness to what the US was.
No doubt... like scorched earth ambitions. And we're expected to support shenanigans like this. Character traits that people say would have been the better alternative right?
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This intense focus on assigning various levels of culpability to folks based on their engagement with the prior election (or any election, rather) is a pretty terrible distraction that exemplifies the problems facing anyone interested in leftward US politics. It's like, encouraging folks to vote and/or otherwise engage in the political process needn't come alongside hackneyed notions of "if you don't vote, you don't deserve a voice!" Regardless of whether that's true or not, it's not a productive starting point in terms of genuinely getting people involved.
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On July 21 2018 21:25 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 19:50 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 19:37 iamthedave wrote:
And if millenials 'did their homework' and came up with the conclusion that Donald Trump was a better choice than Hilary, they're imbeciles, so I don't know what you're putting a smiley on the end of your sentence for. That is assuming that there were only two choices. Most Yellow Dogs that I personally know kept telling me that we weren't "real democrats" and that they didn't need progressives to beat Trump. Yet, acted entitled to our support. Many of us left to support the Greens and looked to the future. There is evidence that DSA is swelling in support as well. I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton! Also pretty certain that we'd be at war already by now if she had won- not sure how that's so much the better? What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton. I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh. So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused. Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse? If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay. Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last. No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ... Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now?
This has to be the most toothless form of political activism, where people push for a progressive agenda, but take no responsibility of anything other than what they are pushing for. Everything that is bad is someone else’s fault, every victory is theirs to own and no one else’s. And progressives wonder why women in the Democratic Party don’t like this faction of the left.
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For the record I think screamingpalm is wrong here. But I don't think that because of terrible arguments like "don't you know how the two party system works?" and the like that he got there, which are different versions of "Bend the knee" with some disguises; I think his argument that people will be more ready for Bernie after 4 years of Trump is wrong. I think after 4 years of Trump people on the left will be ready to settle for anyone to escape that, rather than people on the center will be ready to vote for Bernies to break the system. And people on the center might move to the right even, because they'll see people on the right oppose Trump in some small fashion and accept that as part of their side.
The Overton window is powerful, and as long as someone like Trump is mainstream enough to get elected it's going to be harder, not easier, to get a true leftist in.
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On July 21 2018 22:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 21:25 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 19:50 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 19:37 iamthedave wrote:
And if millenials 'did their homework' and came up with the conclusion that Donald Trump was a better choice than Hilary, they're imbeciles, so I don't know what you're putting a smiley on the end of your sentence for. That is assuming that there were only two choices. Most Yellow Dogs that I personally know kept telling me that we weren't "real democrats" and that they didn't need progressives to beat Trump. Yet, acted entitled to our support. Many of us left to support the Greens and looked to the future. There is evidence that DSA is swelling in support as well. I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton! Also pretty certain that we'd be at war already by now if she had won- not sure how that's so much the better? What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton. I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh. So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused. Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse? If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay. Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last. No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ... Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now? This has to be the most toothless form of political activism, where people push for a progressive agenda, but take no responsibility of anything other than what they are pushing for. Everything that is bad is someone else’s fault, every victory is theirs to own and no one else’s. And progressives wonder why women in the Democratic Party don’t like this faction of the left.
Oh yeah? I doubt I saw you on a kayak blocking and icebreaker, cheering Greenpeace activists suspended from a bridge when Obama gave the green light to drill the arctic. Need more? Yeah you were probably one of those whining about traffic that day with the rest of the liberals. I show up to fight, let me know when you're ready. 
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On July 21 2018 22:22 Nebuchad wrote:
For the record I think screamingpalm is wrong here. But I don't think that because of terrible arguments like "don't you know how the two party system works?" and the like that he got there, which are different versions of "Bend the knee" with some disguises; I think his argument that people will be more ready for Bernie after 4 years of Trump is wrong. I think after 4 years of Trump people on the left will be ready to settle for anyone to escape that, rather than people on the center will be ready to vote for Bernies to break the system. And people on the center might move to the right even, because they'll see people on the right oppose Trump in some small fashion and accept that as part of their side.
The Overton window is powerful, and as long as someone like Trump is mainstream enough to get elected it's going to be harder, not easier, to get a true leftist in.
I don't necessarily disagree with that logic, and I'm sure Clinton and the DNC + DCCC are counting on it. It's up to us.
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On July 21 2018 22:22 Nebuchad wrote:
For the record I think screamingpalm is wrong here. But I don't think that because of terrible arguments like "don't you know how the two party system works?" and the like that he got there, which are different versions of "Bend the knee" with some disguises; I think his argument that people will be more ready for Bernie after 4 years of Trump is wrong. I think after 4 years of Trump people on the left will be ready to settle for anyone to escape that, rather than people on the center will be ready to vote for Bernies to break the system. And people on the center might move to the right even, because they'll see people on the right oppose Trump in some small fashion and accept that as part of their side.
The Overton window is powerful, and as long as someone like Trump is mainstream enough to get elected it's going to be harder, not easier, to get a true leftist in.
I think you might be somewhat right, but I'd emphasise the Overton window less than I would broader, structural economic and social factors within America. The rise of outsider movements like Corbyn and Macron were almost entirely unrelated to what preceded them, and I think the rise of any figure who breaks the orthodoxy in America (such as, arguably, Trump) will happen pretty much regardless of who was in power before.
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On July 21 2018 22:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:08 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 22:03 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason. You act like we don't know that. Because some people apparently don't know that. In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works. Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I thought this discussion was about people voting for third choices/write-ins/whatever. If you're actively voting Trump you deserve absolute condemnation. Its a 2 party system. Voting third choice/write-in/not voting is only a little less bad then voting for the other guy. and "I'd rather have Trump then Clinton" sure does imply to me that you would vote for one over the other. It's exponentially better, also better than voting Clinton in the primary. It also implies you'd prefer neither. Forcing shitty choices and then people refusing to be forced into those 'choices' is the most decent thing to do. Not something I expect everyone to do, but it's the last position deserving of any shame or responsibility for Trump. Preferring neither is fine. But 'neither' isn't going to win an election.
Its a zero-sum game. If A isn't winning its going to be B.
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On July 21 2018 22:31 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 21 2018 22:08 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 22:03 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason. You act like we don't know that. Because some people apparently don't know that. In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works. Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I thought this discussion was about people voting for third choices/write-ins/whatever. If you're actively voting Trump you deserve absolute condemnation. Its a 2 party system. Voting third choice/write-in/not voting is only a little less bad then voting for the other guy. and "I'd rather have Trump then Clinton" sure does imply to me that you would vote for one over the other. It's exponentially better, also better than voting Clinton in the primary. It also implies you'd prefer neither. Forcing shitty choices and then people refusing to be forced into those 'choices' is the most decent thing to do. Not something I expect everyone to do, but it's the last position deserving of any shame or responsibility for Trump. Preferring neither is fine. But 'neither' isn't going to win an election. Its a zero-sum game. If A isn't winning its going to be B.
But do you really have moral responsibility for B? It's not YOU that wants B, just like you don't want A, so can you really be blamed for bailing out on a shitty system that perpetuates shittiness? I only recently realised just how low turnout was in US elections, and really it's entirely unsurprising.
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On July 21 2018 22:31 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 21 2018 22:08 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 22:03 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason. You act like we don't know that. Because some people apparently don't know that. In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works. Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I thought this discussion was about people voting for third choices/write-ins/whatever. If you're actively voting Trump you deserve absolute condemnation. Its a 2 party system. Voting third choice/write-in/not voting is only a little less bad then voting for the other guy. and "I'd rather have Trump then Clinton" sure does imply to me that you would vote for one over the other. It's exponentially better, also better than voting Clinton in the primary. It also implies you'd prefer neither. Forcing shitty choices and then people refusing to be forced into those 'choices' is the most decent thing to do. Not something I expect everyone to do, but it's the last position deserving of any shame or responsibility for Trump. Preferring neither is fine. But 'neither' isn't going to win an election. Its a zero-sum game. If A isn't winning its going to be B.
I think if you repeat one more time that the US is 2-party FPTP and that we have to vote for the people that exploit and benefit from it and they will never change it because they benefit from it, perhaps it won't be a terrible argument that should be rejected out of hand.
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On July 21 2018 22:29 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:22 Nebuchad wrote:
For the record I think screamingpalm is wrong here. But I don't think that because of terrible arguments like "don't you know how the two party system works?" and the like that he got there, which are different versions of "Bend the knee" with some disguises; I think his argument that people will be more ready for Bernie after 4 years of Trump is wrong. I think after 4 years of Trump people on the left will be ready to settle for anyone to escape that, rather than people on the center will be ready to vote for Bernies to break the system. And people on the center might move to the right even, because they'll see people on the right oppose Trump in some small fashion and accept that as part of their side.
The Overton window is powerful, and as long as someone like Trump is mainstream enough to get elected it's going to be harder, not easier, to get a true leftist in. I don't necessarily disagree with that logic, and I'm sure Clinton and the DNC + DCCC are counting on it. It's up to us. Your fight should be in the primary. That is where you get your voice across for your candidate.
Doing it in the general election only hurts yourself and the people you are trying to fight for who end up in a worse situation because 'the other side' won instead.
Bernie Sanders realized that when he lost the primary and called on his supporter to support Clinton and campaigned for her. Because as bad as Clinton might be, Trump was worse.
On July 21 2018 22:34 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:31 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 22:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 21 2018 22:08 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 22:03 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason. You act like we don't know that. Because some people apparently don't know that. In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works. Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I thought this discussion was about people voting for third choices/write-ins/whatever. If you're actively voting Trump you deserve absolute condemnation. Its a 2 party system. Voting third choice/write-in/not voting is only a little less bad then voting for the other guy. and "I'd rather have Trump then Clinton" sure does imply to me that you would vote for one over the other. It's exponentially better, also better than voting Clinton in the primary. It also implies you'd prefer neither. Forcing shitty choices and then people refusing to be forced into those 'choices' is the most decent thing to do. Not something I expect everyone to do, but it's the last position deserving of any shame or responsibility for Trump. Preferring neither is fine. But 'neither' isn't going to win an election. Its a zero-sum game. If A isn't winning its going to be B. But do you really have moral responsibility for B? It's not YOU that wants B, just like you don't want A, so can you really be blamed for bailing out on a shitty system that perpetuates shittiness? I only recently realised just how low turnout was in US elections, and really it's entirely unsurprising. 100 people get to vote. 50 of them are left wing, 50 are right wing.
45 right wingers vote for their candidate, 5 abstain. 40 left wingers vote for their candidate, 10 left wingers don't think their candidate is left enough and abstain (or vote 3e party, same thing).
Ofcourse primary blame for the right winning lies with the 45 right wing voters. No doubt about that. But that doesn't change that fact that if 6 left wingers didn't abstain the left would have won.
Its a 2 party system, if your not voting for one side your making it easier for the other side to win.
And yes it is a shit system for forcing these situation. But it will take a hell of a revolution to change a voting system so profoundly as to eliminate this issue.
You can pretend to bail out all you want. The elections aren't going to stop and the results of these election's aren't going to care that you took the moral highroad.
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On July 21 2018 22:27 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:22 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 21:25 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 19:50 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 19:37 iamthedave wrote:
And if millenials 'did their homework' and came up with the conclusion that Donald Trump was a better choice than Hilary, they're imbeciles, so I don't know what you're putting a smiley on the end of your sentence for. That is assuming that there were only two choices. Most Yellow Dogs that I personally know kept telling me that we weren't "real democrats" and that they didn't need progressives to beat Trump. Yet, acted entitled to our support. Many of us left to support the Greens and looked to the future. There is evidence that DSA is swelling in support as well. I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton! Also pretty certain that we'd be at war already by now if she had won- not sure how that's so much the better? What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton. I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh. So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused. Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse? If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay. Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last. No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ... Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now? This has to be the most toothless form of political activism, where people push for a progressive agenda, but take no responsibility of anything other than what they are pushing for. Everything that is bad is someone else’s fault, every victory is theirs to own and no one else’s. And progressives wonder why women in the Democratic Party don’t like this faction of the left. Oh yeah? I doubt I saw you on a kayak blocking and icebreaker, cheering Greenpeace activists suspended from a bridge when Obama gave the green light to drill the arctic. Need more? Yeah you were probably one of those whining about traffic that day with the rest of the liberals. I show up to fight, let me know when you're ready.
I prefer to spend my time doing things that will have some impact, working on local elections to assure adequate funding for rehabilitation clinics and assisting homeless shelters.
But hey, keep blaming the threat to abortion on “the liberals” I’m sure that is going to be a winning strategy for when ya all need their votes. The women will be lining up.
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On July 21 2018 22:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:27 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:22 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 21:25 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 19:50 screamingpalm wrote:
[quote]
That is assuming that there were only two choices. Most Yellow Dogs that I personally know kept telling me that we weren't "real democrats" and that they didn't need progressives to beat Trump. Yet, acted entitled to our support. Many of us left to support the Greens and looked to the future. There is evidence that DSA is swelling in support as well. I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton! Also pretty certain that we'd be at war already by now if she had won- not sure how that's so much the better?
What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton. I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh. So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused. Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse? If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay. Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last. No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ... Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now? This has to be the most toothless form of political activism, where people push for a progressive agenda, but take no responsibility of anything other than what they are pushing for. Everything that is bad is someone else’s fault, every victory is theirs to own and no one else’s. And progressives wonder why women in the Democratic Party don’t like this faction of the left. Oh yeah? I doubt I saw you on a kayak blocking and icebreaker, cheering Greenpeace activists suspended from a bridge when Obama gave the green light to drill the arctic. Need more? Yeah you were probably one of those whining about traffic that day with the rest of the liberals. I show up to fight, let me know when you're ready. I prefer to spend my time doing things that will have some impact, working on local elections to assure adequate funding for rehabilitation clinics and assisting homeless shelters. But hey, keep blaming the threat to abortion on “the liberals” I’m sure that is going to be a winning strategy for when ya all need their votes. The women will be lining up.
Women? You know how many were out there with us that day? Two of them were suspended from that bridge. The current administrator of Greenpeace is a woman. They don't like progressives? Interesting!
Thank you for assisting homeless shelters at least. Maybe you can care about the environment that Dems like to destroy as well (otherwise maybe no point?).
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On July 21 2018 22:53 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:48 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 22:27 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:22 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 21:25 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:
[quote]
What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton. I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh. So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused. Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse? If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay. Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last. No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ... Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now? This has to be the most toothless form of political activism, where people push for a progressive agenda, but take no responsibility of anything other than what they are pushing for. Everything that is bad is someone else’s fault, every victory is theirs to own and no one else’s. And progressives wonder why women in the Democratic Party don’t like this faction of the left. Oh yeah? I doubt I saw you on a kayak blocking and icebreaker, cheering Greenpeace activists suspended from a bridge when Obama gave the green light to drill the arctic. Need more? Yeah you were probably one of those whining about traffic that day with the rest of the liberals. I show up to fight, let me know when you're ready. I prefer to spend my time doing things that will have some impact, working on local elections to assure adequate funding for rehabilitation clinics and assisting homeless shelters. But hey, keep blaming the threat to abortion on “the liberals” I’m sure that is going to be a winning strategy for when ya all need their votes. The women will be lining up. Women? You know how many were out there with us that day? Two of them were suspended from that bridge. The current administrator of Greenpeace is a woman. They don't like progressives? Interesting! Thank you for assisting homeless shelters at least. Maybe you can care about the environment that Dems like to destroy as well (otherwise maybe no point?). I don't want to put words into Plansix's mouth but I imagine many women won't be happy if the progressive left abstaining from an election costs them the right to have an abortion or having contraception fall under basic healthcare coverage.
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On July 21 2018 22:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:53 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:48 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 22:27 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:22 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 21:25 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:
[quote]
I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh. So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused. Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse? If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay. Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last. No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ... Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now? This has to be the most toothless form of political activism, where people push for a progressive agenda, but take no responsibility of anything other than what they are pushing for. Everything that is bad is someone else’s fault, every victory is theirs to own and no one else’s. And progressives wonder why women in the Democratic Party don’t like this faction of the left. Oh yeah? I doubt I saw you on a kayak blocking and icebreaker, cheering Greenpeace activists suspended from a bridge when Obama gave the green light to drill the arctic. Need more? Yeah you were probably one of those whining about traffic that day with the rest of the liberals. I show up to fight, let me know when you're ready. I prefer to spend my time doing things that will have some impact, working on local elections to assure adequate funding for rehabilitation clinics and assisting homeless shelters. But hey, keep blaming the threat to abortion on “the liberals” I’m sure that is going to be a winning strategy for when ya all need their votes. The women will be lining up. Women? You know how many were out there with us that day? Two of them were suspended from that bridge. The current administrator of Greenpeace is a woman. They don't like progressives? Interesting! Thank you for assisting homeless shelters at least. Maybe you can care about the environment that Dems like to destroy as well (otherwise maybe no point?). I don't want to put words into Plansix's mouth but I imagine many women won't be happy if the progressive left abstaining from an election costs them the right to have an abortion or having contraception fall under basic healthcare coverage.
Again, our fault? Why not blame Hillary for being a pied piper? Or the DNC and DCCC for the strategy of appealing to moderates? Same ol' same ol'.
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On July 21 2018 23:00 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 22:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 22:53 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:48 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 22:27 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:22 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 21:25 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:
[quote]
So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused. Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse? If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay. Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last. No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ... Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now? This has to be the most toothless form of political activism, where people push for a progressive agenda, but take no responsibility of anything other than what they are pushing for. Everything that is bad is someone else’s fault, every victory is theirs to own and no one else’s. And progressives wonder why women in the Democratic Party don’t like this faction of the left. Oh yeah? I doubt I saw you on a kayak blocking and icebreaker, cheering Greenpeace activists suspended from a bridge when Obama gave the green light to drill the arctic. Need more? Yeah you were probably one of those whining about traffic that day with the rest of the liberals. I show up to fight, let me know when you're ready. I prefer to spend my time doing things that will have some impact, working on local elections to assure adequate funding for rehabilitation clinics and assisting homeless shelters. But hey, keep blaming the threat to abortion on “the liberals” I’m sure that is going to be a winning strategy for when ya all need their votes. The women will be lining up. Women? You know how many were out there with us that day? Two of them were suspended from that bridge. The current administrator of Greenpeace is a woman. They don't like progressives? Interesting! Thank you for assisting homeless shelters at least. Maybe you can care about the environment that Dems like to destroy as well (otherwise maybe no point?). I don't want to put words into Plansix's mouth but I imagine many women won't be happy if the progressive left abstaining from an election costs them the right to have an abortion or having contraception fall under basic healthcare coverage. Again, our fault? Why not blame Hillary for being a pied piper? Or the DNC and DCCC for the strategy of appealing to moderates? Same ol' same ol'. Because neither Hillary nor the DNC thought to themselves "lets go and lose today, the suffering is worth the try to maybe get something better next time".
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It’s not like there is a finite amount of blame to go around.
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On July 21 2018 23:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 23:00 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 22:53 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:48 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 22:27 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:22 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 21:25 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:
[quote]
Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse? If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay. Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last. No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ... Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now? This has to be the most toothless form of political activism, where people push for a progressive agenda, but take no responsibility of anything other than what they are pushing for. Everything that is bad is someone else’s fault, every victory is theirs to own and no one else’s. And progressives wonder why women in the Democratic Party don’t like this faction of the left. Oh yeah? I doubt I saw you on a kayak blocking and icebreaker, cheering Greenpeace activists suspended from a bridge when Obama gave the green light to drill the arctic. Need more? Yeah you were probably one of those whining about traffic that day with the rest of the liberals. I show up to fight, let me know when you're ready. I prefer to spend my time doing things that will have some impact, working on local elections to assure adequate funding for rehabilitation clinics and assisting homeless shelters. But hey, keep blaming the threat to abortion on “the liberals” I’m sure that is going to be a winning strategy for when ya all need their votes. The women will be lining up. Women? You know how many were out there with us that day? Two of them were suspended from that bridge. The current administrator of Greenpeace is a woman. They don't like progressives? Interesting! Thank you for assisting homeless shelters at least. Maybe you can care about the environment that Dems like to destroy as well (otherwise maybe no point?). I don't want to put words into Plansix's mouth but I imagine many women won't be happy if the progressive left abstaining from an election costs them the right to have an abortion or having contraception fall under basic healthcare coverage. Again, our fault? Why not blame Hillary for being a pied piper? Or the DNC and DCCC for the strategy of appealing to moderates? Same ol' same ol'. Because neither Hillary nor the DNC thought to themselves "lets go and lose today, the suffering is worth the try to maybe get something better next time".
No, they played the controlled opposition game and are hoping that people are so thoroughly ill that they might even win next time.
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On July 21 2018 23:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 23:00 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:58 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2018 22:53 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:48 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 22:27 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 22:22 Plansix wrote:On July 21 2018 21:25 screamingpalm wrote:On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:
[quote]
Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse? If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay. Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last. No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ... Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now? This has to be the most toothless form of political activism, where people push for a progressive agenda, but take no responsibility of anything other than what they are pushing for. Everything that is bad is someone else’s fault, every victory is theirs to own and no one else’s. And progressives wonder why women in the Democratic Party don’t like this faction of the left. Oh yeah? I doubt I saw you on a kayak blocking and icebreaker, cheering Greenpeace activists suspended from a bridge when Obama gave the green light to drill the arctic. Need more? Yeah you were probably one of those whining about traffic that day with the rest of the liberals. I show up to fight, let me know when you're ready. I prefer to spend my time doing things that will have some impact, working on local elections to assure adequate funding for rehabilitation clinics and assisting homeless shelters. But hey, keep blaming the threat to abortion on “the liberals” I’m sure that is going to be a winning strategy for when ya all need their votes. The women will be lining up. Women? You know how many were out there with us that day? Two of them were suspended from that bridge. The current administrator of Greenpeace is a woman. They don't like progressives? Interesting! Thank you for assisting homeless shelters at least. Maybe you can care about the environment that Dems like to destroy as well (otherwise maybe no point?). I don't want to put words into Plansix's mouth but I imagine many women won't be happy if the progressive left abstaining from an election costs them the right to have an abortion or having contraception fall under basic healthcare coverage. Again, our fault? Why not blame Hillary for being a pied piper? Or the DNC and DCCC for the strategy of appealing to moderates? Same ol' same ol'. Because neither Hillary nor the DNC thought to themselves "lets go and lose today, the suffering is worth the try to maybe get something better next time".
They knew what they were doing. Hillary polled terribly against everyone so they pushed the only people she polled even with. Then they ignored progressives saying they didn't need our votes and continue to try to absolve themselves from backing a clearly morally corrupt candidate in the primary/general by pointing at the monster she helped create and didn't beat anyway.
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EPT
