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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 512

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
July 21 2018 12:09 GMT
#10221
On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:50 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:37 iamthedave wrote:

And if millenials 'did their homework' and came up with the conclusion that Donald Trump was a better choice than Hilary, they're imbeciles, so I don't know what you're putting a smiley on the end of your sentence for.


That is assuming that there were only two choices. Most Yellow Dogs that I personally know kept telling me that we weren't "real democrats" and that they didn't need progressives to beat Trump. Yet, acted entitled to our support. Many of us left to support the Greens and looked to the future. There is evidence that DSA is swelling in support as well. I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton! Also pretty certain that we'd be at war already by now if she had won- not sure how that's so much the better?


What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton.


I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh.


So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35118 Posts
July 21 2018 12:11 GMT
#10222
On July 21 2018 17:31 screamingpalm wrote:
This is promising, despite the neoliberal propaganda spin.

+ Show Spoiler +


PORTLAND, Maine — Last Friday, Maine Democrat Zak Ringelstein wasn't ready to consider himself a formal member of the Democratic Socialists of America, even if he appreciated the organization's values and endorsement in his bid to become a United States senator.

Three days later, he told The Associated Press that was ready to become the only major-party Senate candidate in the nation to be a dues-paying democratic socialist.

The swift evolution is latest evidence of a nationwide surge in the strength and popularity of an organization that, until recently, operated on the fringes of the liberal movement's farthest left flank. But as Donald Trump's presidency stretches into its second year, democratic socialism has become a significant force in Democratic politics. Its rise comes as Democrats debate whether moving too far left will turn off voters.

"I stand with the democratic socialists, and I have decided to become a dues-paying member," Ringelstein told the AP. "It's time to do what's right, even if it's not easy."

There are 42 men and women running for offices at the federal, state and local levels this year with the formal endorsement of the Democratic Socialists of America, the organization says. They span 20 states, including Florida, Hawaii, Kansas and Michigan.

The most ambitious Democrats in Washington have been reluctant to embrace the label, even as they embrace the policies defining modern-day democratic socialism: Medicare for all, a $15 minimum wage, free college tuition and the abolition of the federal department of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, also known as ICE.

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, Congress' only self-identified democratic socialist, campaigned Friday with the movement's newest star, New York City congressional candidate Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez, a 28-year-old former bartender who defeated one of the most powerful House Democrats last month.

Her victory poured gasoline onto a fire that was already beginning to burn brighter. The DSA's paid membership has hovered around 6,000 in recent years, said Allie Cohn, a member of the group's national political team.
Last week, its paid membership hit 45,000 nationwide.

There is little distinction made between the terms "democratic socialism" and "socialism" in the group's literature. While Ringelstein and other DSA-backed candidates promote a "big-tent" philosophy, the DSA constitution describes their members as socialists who "reject an economic order based on private profit" and "share a vision of a humane social order based on popular control of resources and production, economic planning, equitable distribution, feminism, racial equality and non-oppressive relationships."

Members during public meetings often refer to each other "comrades," wear clothing featuring socialist symbols like the rose and promote authors such as Karl Marx.

The common association with the Soviet Union, the first state to adopt a form of socialism, has made it difficult for sympathetic liberals to explain their connection.

"I don't like the term socialist, because people do associate that with bad things in history," said Kansas congressional candidate James Thompson, who is endorsed by the DSA and campaigned alongside Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez, but is not a dues-paying democratic socialist. "There's definitely a lot of their policies that closely align with mine."

Thompson, an Army veteran turned civil rights attorney, is running again after narrowly losing a special election last year to fill the seat vacated by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. Even in deep-red Kansas, he embraces policies like "Medicare for all" and is openly critical of capitalism.

In Hawaii, 29-year-old state Rep. Kaniela Ing isn't shy about promoting his status as a democratic socialist in his bid for Congress. He said he was encouraged to run for higher office by the same activist who recruited Ocasio-Cortez.
"We figured just lean in hard," Kaniela told the AP of the democratic socialist label. He acknowledged some baby boomers may be scared away, but said the policies democratic socialists promote — like free health care and economic equality — aren't extreme.

Republicans, meanwhile, are encouraged by the rise of democratic socialism — for a far different reason. They have seized on what they view as a leftward lurch by Democrats they predict will alienate voters this fall and in the 2020 presidential race.

The Republican National Committee eagerly notes that Sanders' plan to provide free government-sponsored health care for all Americans had no co-sponsors in 2013. Today, more than one-third of Senate Democrats and two-thirds of House Democrats have signed onto the proposal, which by one estimate could cost taxpayers as much as $32 trillion.
The co-sponsors include 2020 presidential prospects such as Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren, New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker, New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand and California Sen. Kamala Harris.

Spokesmen confirmed that none of the senators consider themselves democratic socialists, but made no effort to distance from the movement's priorities.

Most support the push to abolish ICE, which enforces immigration laws and led the Trump administration's recent push to separate immigrant families at U.S.-Mexico border.

Of the group, only Booker hasn't called for ICE to be abolished, replaced or rebuilt. Yet Booker's office notes that he's among the few senators backing a plan to guarantee government-backed jobs to unemployed adults in high-unemployment communities across America.

"Half of voters already think the Democratic Party is too extreme, so embracing socialist policies like government-run health care, a guaranteed jobs program and open borders will only make Democrats more out of touch," RNC Chair Ronna Romney McDaniel said.

Despite Ocasio-Cortez's recent success, most DSA-endorsed candidates have struggled.
Gayle McLaughlin finished eighth in last month's Democratic primary to become California's lieutenant governor, earning just 4 percent of the vote. All three endorsed candidates for Maryland's Montgomery County Council lost last month as well. And Ryan Fenwick was blown out by 58 points in his run to become mayor of Louisville, Kentucky.
Ringelstein, a 32-year-old political neophyte, is expected to struggle in his campaign to unseat Maine Sen. Angus King, an independent who caucuses with Democrats. He is refusing to accept donations from lobbyists or corporate political action committees, which has made fundraising a grind. At the end of June, King's campaign reported $2.4 million cash on hand while Ringelstein had just $23,000.

He has tapped into the party's national progressive movement and the southern Maine chapter of the DSA for the kind of grassroots support that fueled Ocasio-Cortez's victory. As he has almost every month this year, Ringelstein attended the group's monthly meeting at Portland's city hall last Monday.

More than 60 people packed into the room. The group's chairman, 25-year-old union organizer Meg Reilly, wore a t-shirt featuring three roses.

She cheered the "comrades" softball team's recent season before moving into an agenda that touched on climate change legislation, a book share program "to further your socialist education," and an exchange program that lets community members swap favors such as jewelry repair, pet sitting or cooking.

Near the end of the two-hour gathering, Ringelstein formally thanked the group for "standing shoulder to shoulder with us throughout this entire campaign."
"We could win a U.S. Senate seat!" he said. "I want to say that over and over. We could win a U.S. Senate seat! So, let's do this."

Source




Some thoughts:
-article sure chomps at the bit to use the term dues-paying dem socialist
-RNC will have it come back to bite them in the ass if they go with the $32 trillion taxpayer dollars myth
-ditto on "government run healthcare" and a federal jobs guarantee (this should be an easy lay-up for the left if they focus on truth in economics- only the far left would though)
-Notice the guy campaigning in Kansas with a progressive platform (I mentioned many pages ago that I think progressives have a better chance than moderate neolibs in these areas)
-I enjoy the irony of pointing out that baby boomers might be scared away (the generation that benefitted from dem socialist policies)
-probably shouldn't embrace the use of 'comrade' in DSA meetings, for obvious reasons


The concept of "half the voters" thinking the Democratic party is already "too extreme" is absolutely laughable to me. The distorted view of some people is ridiculous.
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
July 21 2018 12:14 GMT
#10223
On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:50 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:37 iamthedave wrote:

And if millenials 'did their homework' and came up with the conclusion that Donald Trump was a better choice than Hilary, they're imbeciles, so I don't know what you're putting a smiley on the end of your sentence for.


That is assuming that there were only two choices. Most Yellow Dogs that I personally know kept telling me that we weren't "real democrats" and that they didn't need progressives to beat Trump. Yet, acted entitled to our support. Many of us left to support the Greens and looked to the future. There is evidence that DSA is swelling in support as well. I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton! Also pretty certain that we'd be at war already by now if she had won- not sure how that's so much the better?


What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton.


I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh.


So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused.


Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse?
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
July 21 2018 12:17 GMT
#10224
On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:
On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:50 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:37 iamthedave wrote:

And if millenials 'did their homework' and came up with the conclusion that Donald Trump was a better choice than Hilary, they're imbeciles, so I don't know what you're putting a smiley on the end of your sentence for.


That is assuming that there were only two choices. Most Yellow Dogs that I personally know kept telling me that we weren't "real democrats" and that they didn't need progressives to beat Trump. Yet, acted entitled to our support. Many of us left to support the Greens and looked to the future. There is evidence that DSA is swelling in support as well. I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton! Also pretty certain that we'd be at war already by now if she had won- not sure how that's so much the better?


What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton.


I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh.


So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused.


Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse?

If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay.
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-21 12:36:25
July 21 2018 12:25 GMT
#10225
On July 21 2018 21:17 kollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:
On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:50 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:37 iamthedave wrote:

And if millenials 'did their homework' and came up with the conclusion that Donald Trump was a better choice than Hilary, they're imbeciles, so I don't know what you're putting a smiley on the end of your sentence for.


That is assuming that there were only two choices. Most Yellow Dogs that I personally know kept telling me that we weren't "real democrats" and that they didn't need progressives to beat Trump. Yet, acted entitled to our support. Many of us left to support the Greens and looked to the future. There is evidence that DSA is swelling in support as well. I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton! Also pretty certain that we'd be at war already by now if she had won- not sure how that's so much the better?


What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton.


I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh.


So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused.


Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse?

If abortion gets ripped up as a result of Trump's SC choices will you still hold this position? I'm fairly sympathetic to your thinking, but I'm interested in exactly what price you'd pay.



Why is that my (or progressives) fault? We aren't exactly in the pro-life camp (I am personally, but not as public policy). In my view this is just more of the propaganda and blame game. It just keeps the vicious cycle perpetuating. If it happens, we have to fight to change it again. The fight never ends you know? None of this is guaranteed to last.


No different to neoliberals stripping the gains made under FDR, Ike, LBJ...


Also, let's not forget the Dem strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans. Where is Susan Collins now?
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-21 12:40:22
July 21 2018 12:39 GMT
#10226
On July 21 2018 21:14 screamingpalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:09 Longshank wrote:
On July 21 2018 20:36 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 20:26 Longshank wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:50 screamingpalm wrote:
On July 21 2018 19:37 iamthedave wrote:

And if millenials 'did their homework' and came up with the conclusion that Donald Trump was a better choice than Hilary, they're imbeciles, so I don't know what you're putting a smiley on the end of your sentence for.


That is assuming that there were only two choices. Most Yellow Dogs that I personally know kept telling me that we weren't "real democrats" and that they didn't need progressives to beat Trump. Yet, acted entitled to our support. Many of us left to support the Greens and looked to the future. There is evidence that DSA is swelling in support as well. I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton! Also pretty certain that we'd be at war already by now if she had won- not sure how that's so much the better?


What I think your friends were objecting to is, just as you're saying, the fact that you did rather see Trump winning than Clinton.


I didn't prefer one over the other. It's just so odd... it's sort of like saying "your friends object to your disdain of an imperial warmongering Wall Street crook". Progressives have been on the sidelines of this spectator sport for decades. I'm getting my nose rubbed in for supporting Nader all over again heh.


So "I'd rather suffer 4 years of the idiot if that means there's a legit chance for a Bernie Sanders afterwards- rather than have eight years of Clinton!" wasn't your position prior to the election when you talked to your friends? I'm confused.


Absolutely. How does that mean I am a Trump humper and not that I simply want another chance at a progressive in 4 years rather than 8? Or that I still remember the damage Bill Clinton caused and would rather a clown that fights with his own party have a few years rather than a snake that can do much worse?

It doesn't mean you're a Trump humper, but it means that you in 2016 would rather see Trump win than Hillary. My point is, it's not difficult to see why your democrat friends would have a problem with that.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21528 Posts
July 21 2018 12:39 GMT
#10227
"I'd rather have 4y of Trump and then try to get a better deal then 8y of Clinton" is fine and dandy if your sitting in your ivory tower suffering none of the ill effects of the Trump presidency.
But your going to have to accept that those who are effected or fearing to be effected. Be it risk of deportation, loss of healthcare, loss of gay rights or any number of things are going to look at your attitude and assign some level of blame on you for the situation they are now in.

The reality is that what your calling 'propaganda and blame game' is people's lives getting fucked over for a lot longer then 4 years.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-21 12:42:51
July 21 2018 12:41 GMT
#10228
On July 21 2018 21:39 Gorsameth wrote:
"I'd rather have 4y of Trump and then try to get a better deal then 8y of Clinton" is fine and dandy if your sitting in your ivory tower suffering none of the ill effects of the Trump presidency.
But your going to have to accept that those who are effected or fearing to be effected. Be it risk of deportation, loss of healthcare, loss of gay rights or any number of things are going to look at your attitude and assign some level of blame on you for the situation they are now in.

The reality is that what your calling 'propaganda and blame game' is people's lives getting fucked over for a lot longer then 4 years.


And you don't think Clinton wouldn't have screwed over those same people? Do you remember who was called the "Deporter-in-Chief"? You don't think 4 years is more tolerable than 8? This has been the same circular argument since at least Nader.
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22991 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-21 12:43:19
July 21 2018 12:41 GMT
#10229
On July 21 2018 21:39 Gorsameth wrote:
"I'd rather have 4y of Trump and then try to get a better deal then 8y of Clinton" is fine and dandy if your sitting in your ivory tower suffering none of the ill effects of the Trump presidency.
But your going to have to accept that those who are effected or fearing to be effected. Be it risk of deportation, loss of healthcare, loss of gay rights or any number of things are going to look at your attitude and assign some level of blame on you for the situation they are now in.

The reality is that what your calling 'propaganda and blame game' is people's lives getting fucked over for a lot longer then 4 years.


For those of us who have always been threatened and saw no end under Democratic control (often for decades) the empathy runs thin. Maybe now they'll be ready to fight?

So far Democrats are still fighting the left and appealing to the right.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
July 21 2018 12:44 GMT
#10230
On July 21 2018 21:39 Gorsameth wrote:
"I'd rather have 4y of Trump and then try to get a better deal then 8y of Clinton" is fine and dandy if your sitting in your ivory tower suffering none of the ill effects of the Trump presidency.
But your going to have to accept that those who are effected or fearing to be effected. Be it risk of deportation, loss of healthcare, loss of gay rights or any number of things are going to look at your attitude and assign some level of blame on you for the situation they are now in.

The reality is that what your calling 'propaganda and blame game' is people's lives getting fucked over for a lot longer then 4 years.

In fairness this does just end up as a race to the bottom though, in which the 'centre ground' gets dragged further and further right so left wingers are exhorted to vote for increasingly terrible candidates to prevent an even WORSE evil. Those who can't stomach voting for terrible centrist candidates can't be held as morally responsible as, say, the people voting for Trump (or even the people voting for Clinton in the primary). Then again, I suspect this is a viewpoint much easier to hold if you're a man.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21528 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-21 12:46:27
July 21 2018 12:45 GMT
#10231
On July 21 2018 21:41 screamingpalm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:39 Gorsameth wrote:
"I'd rather have 4y of Trump and then try to get a better deal then 8y of Clinton" is fine and dandy if your sitting in your ivory tower suffering none of the ill effects of the Trump presidency.
But your going to have to accept that those who are effected or fearing to be effected. Be it risk of deportation, loss of healthcare, loss of gay rights or any number of things are going to look at your attitude and assign some level of blame on you for the situation they are now in.

The reality is that what your calling 'propaganda and blame game' is people's lives getting fucked over for a lot longer then 4 years.


And you don't think Clinton wouldn't have screwed over those same people? Do you remember who was called the "Deporter-in-Chief"? You don't think 4 years is more tolerable than 8? This has been the same circular argument since at least Nader.
No, I don't think we would see even remotely the same situation.under Clinton compared to Trump.

On July 21 2018 21:44 kollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:39 Gorsameth wrote:
"I'd rather have 4y of Trump and then try to get a better deal then 8y of Clinton" is fine and dandy if your sitting in your ivory tower suffering none of the ill effects of the Trump presidency.
But your going to have to accept that those who are effected or fearing to be effected. Be it risk of deportation, loss of healthcare, loss of gay rights or any number of things are going to look at your attitude and assign some level of blame on you for the situation they are now in.

The reality is that what your calling 'propaganda and blame game' is people's lives getting fucked over for a lot longer then 4 years.

In fairness this does just end up as a race to the bottom though, in which the 'centre ground' gets dragged further and further right so left wingers are exhorted to vote for increasingly terrible candidates to prevent an even WORSE evil. Those who can't stomach voting for terrible centrist candidates can't be held as morally responsible as, say, the people voting for Trump (or even the people voting for Clinton in the primary). Then again, I suspect this is a viewpoint much easier to hold if you're a man.
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12045 Posts
July 21 2018 12:49 GMT
#10232
On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.


You act like we don't know that.
"It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21528 Posts
July 21 2018 12:57 GMT
#10233
On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.


You act like we don't know that.
Because some people apparently don't know that.
In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works.

Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22991 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-21 13:06:09
July 21 2018 12:58 GMT
#10234
On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.


You act like we don't know that.
Because some people apparently don't know that.
In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works.

Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face.



When Clinton cleared her Democratic competition and promoted Trump as the nominee (knowing him better than the rest of the country) she's just a different kind of bad.

Perpetuating that kind of 'choice' is a hopeless endeavor.

It appears by all measures that 4 years of Trump isn't enough for liberals to learn though.

EDIT: lol I missed the "voting Trump" part. Not sure who you're supposed to be talking to.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12045 Posts
July 21 2018 13:02 GMT
#10235
On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.


You act like we don't know that.
Because some people apparently don't know that.
In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works.

Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face.



They didn't vote Trump did they?
"It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
July 21 2018 13:03 GMT
#10236
On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.


You act like we don't know that.
Because some people apparently don't know that.
In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works.

Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face.


I thought this discussion was about people voting for third choices/write-ins/whatever. If you're actively voting Trump you deserve absolute condemnation.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21528 Posts
July 21 2018 13:06 GMT
#10237
On July 21 2018 21:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.


You act like we don't know that.
Because some people apparently don't know that.
In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works.

Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face.



When Clinton cleared her Democratic competition and promoted Trump as the nominee (knowing him better than the rest of the country) she's just a different kind of bad.

Perpetuating that kind of 'choice' is a hopeless endeavor.

It appears by all measures that 4 years of Trump isn't enough for liberals to learn though.
Or, like many others, Clinton didn't think America's were as gullible as they turned out to be are and Trump as an opponent made sense to maximize the chance of winning because whoever would vote for someone as horrible as Trump.

Turned out a lot more Americans liked an openly racist misogynist snake oil salesmen then people suspected.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States22991 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-21 13:08:11
July 21 2018 13:07 GMT
#10238
On July 21 2018 22:06 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.


You act like we don't know that.
Because some people apparently don't know that.
In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works.

Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face.



When Clinton cleared her Democratic competition and promoted Trump as the nominee (knowing him better than the rest of the country) she's just a different kind of bad.

Perpetuating that kind of 'choice' is a hopeless endeavor.

It appears by all measures that 4 years of Trump isn't enough for liberals to learn though.
Or, like many others, Clinton didn't think America's were as gullible as they turned out to be are and Trump as an opponent made sense to maximize the chance of winning because whoever would vote for someone as horrible as Trump.

Turned out a lot more Americans liked an openly racist misogynist snake oil salesmen then people suspected.


"Made sense" from a maniacally cynical perspective maybe.

Also took a great deal of obliviousness to what the US was.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21528 Posts
July 21 2018 13:08 GMT
#10239
On July 21 2018 22:03 kollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.


You act like we don't know that.
Because some people apparently don't know that.
In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works.

Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face.


I thought this discussion was about people voting for third choices/write-ins/whatever. If you're actively voting Trump you deserve absolute condemnation.
Its a 2 party system. Voting third choice/write-in/not voting is only a little less bad then voting for the other guy.

and "I'd rather have Trump then Clinton" sure does imply to me that you would vote for one over the other.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12045 Posts
July 21 2018 13:08 GMT
#10240
On July 21 2018 22:06 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2018 21:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:57 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:49 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 21 2018 21:45 Gorsameth wrote:
Welcome to a FPTP 2 party system.
Its utter shit for this very reason.


You act like we don't know that.
Because some people apparently don't know that.
In a 2 party system you end up voting for the least bad option. That's (sadly) how it works.

Voting Trump because you think Clinton isn't progressive enough is cutting off your nose to spite your face.



When Clinton cleared her Democratic competition and promoted Trump as the nominee (knowing him better than the rest of the country) she's just a different kind of bad.

Perpetuating that kind of 'choice' is a hopeless endeavor.

It appears by all measures that 4 years of Trump isn't enough for liberals to learn though.
Or, like many others, Clinton didn't think America's were as gullible as they turned out to be are and Trump as an opponent made sense to maximize the chance of winning because whoever would vote for someone as horrible as Trump.

Turned out a lot more Americans liked an openly racist misogynist snake oil salesmen then people suspected.


You sure give her a lot more leeway for jeopardizing the future of the country than you do progressives.
"It is capitalism that is incentivizing me to lazily explain this to you while at work because I am not rewarded for generating additional value."
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