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On June 26 2025 16:15 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 16:11 ETisME wrote:On June 26 2025 13:15 Simberto wrote:On June 26 2025 12:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 26 2025 10:11 ETisME wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4en8djwykoWell this is actually huge. a number is onboard to be at 5% and the rest will aim to increase (except Spain). Either way the entire eurozone gotta spend more in military, so hardly a surprise. They need to spend to be more self sufficient and to catch-up. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that this won't lead to the United States giving less money to its own military. It also will not lead to EU countries spending money on US weapons, which is what Trump wants. At least i assume it is what he wants, because that is the only angle that makes some sort of vague sense. Yes and no. The US had been wanting EU countries to spend more in military for decades, one way or another. Less security bail out. I am pretty sure that at least some of that want has always been the unspoken expectation that "spending more on military" at least partially involves "buying more US weapons", since a lot of Nato weapons are supplied by the US. But with the current political climate, making our defense reliant on US goodwill seems like a really, really bad idea. A thing basically no one except Charles de Gaulle thought for a long time. It is really weird how you can piss away such a powerful and strong alliance in such a short time. Vance was complaining that EU nations were not buying American weapons a couple of weeks/months ago.
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On June 26 2025 16:25 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 09:56 LightSpectra wrote:
Historical fascists were generally pretty incompetent at everything other than controlling public opinion, so that tracks. I still can't accept the reality of people actually sticking with a guy who literally says: "Blame everything that is wrong with the economy on Biden, and praise me for every good thing." And people just eat it.
Various right-wing groups have figured out they can flood social media and use confirmation bias to brainwash people into believing literally anything - such as immigrants eating cats and dogs. There are literally people on this forum who fell for that lie.
Trump's onslaught of lies works through repetition. Repetition is a key tool of propaganda.
If we want to take back control of the narrative, we have to make use of repetition. Flood the place with our narrative and spend much less time on debunking lies. Just keep pushing the narrative. Create a flood of information that the liars can't keep up with.
Just flip the script on the liars. Don't engage with the lie, just keep pushing your narrative.
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On June 26 2025 18:31 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 16:25 KT_Elwood wrote:On June 26 2025 09:56 LightSpectra wrote:
Historical fascists were generally pretty incompetent at everything other than controlling public opinion, so that tracks. I still can't accept the reality of people actually sticking with a guy who literally says: "Blame everything that is wrong with the economy on Biden, and praise me for every good thing." And people just eat it. Various right-wing groups have figured out they can flood social media and use confirmation bias to brainwash people into believing literally anything - such as immigrants eating cats and dogs. There are literally people on this forum who fell for that lie. Trump's onslaught of lies works through repetition. Repetition is a key tool of propaganda. If we want to take back control of the narrative, we have to make use of repetition. Flood the place with our narrative and spend much less time on debunking lies. Just keep pushing the narrative. Create a flood of information that the liars can't keep up with. Just flip the script on the liars. Don't engage with the lie, just keep pushing your narrative.
One problem with that is that reality is usually far less sexy than lies. Reality tends to be complex and complicated. Lies can be simple and satisfying. Also, quite often reality is simply "None of that is happening and it is just not a problem", which is a very boring story that no one will repeat.
There are some situations we can do that, especially with wealth distribution, but in a lot of situations reality is simply not fit as a simple narrative that plays well with idiots on social media.
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It also doesn't really explain why the left is so incapable of doing the same.
They obviously try but among allt he purity testing everything just falls into pieces quickly. It's not like the "right" is actually a unified front, they somehow just have realized that winning is more important than being even "righter" than the other.
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On June 26 2025 19:41 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 18:31 Magic Powers wrote:On June 26 2025 16:25 KT_Elwood wrote:On June 26 2025 09:56 LightSpectra wrote:
Historical fascists were generally pretty incompetent at everything other than controlling public opinion, so that tracks. I still can't accept the reality of people actually sticking with a guy who literally says: "Blame everything that is wrong with the economy on Biden, and praise me for every good thing." And people just eat it. Various right-wing groups have figured out they can flood social media and use confirmation bias to brainwash people into believing literally anything - such as immigrants eating cats and dogs. There are literally people on this forum who fell for that lie. Trump's onslaught of lies works through repetition. Repetition is a key tool of propaganda. If we want to take back control of the narrative, we have to make use of repetition. Flood the place with our narrative and spend much less time on debunking lies. Just keep pushing the narrative. Create a flood of information that the liars can't keep up with. Just flip the script on the liars. Don't engage with the lie, just keep pushing your narrative. One problem with that is that reality is usually far less sexy than lies. Reality tends to be complex and complicated. Lies can be simple and satisfying. Also, quite often reality is simply "None of that is happening and it is just not a problem", which is a very boring story that no one will repeat. There are some situations we can do that, especially with wealth distribution, but in a lot of situations reality is simply not fit as a simple narrative that plays well with idiots on social media.
Very good point, reality is less sexy. I guess intuitive packaging would be another good approach then. Fewer theoretical explanations, more real anecdotes.
The concern that this leads to oversimplification is understandable, but we have to accept that people have limited time and energy.
More attractive packaging seems like a great idea. Then the consumption will likely increase.
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On June 26 2025 19:52 Velr wrote:
It also doesn't really explain why the left is so incapable of doing the same.
They obviously try but among allt he purity testing everything just falls into pieces quickly. It's not like the "right" is actually a unified front, they somehow just have realized that winning is more important than being even "righter" than the other.
When you talk about "purity testing", does that go both ways? Is it "purity testing" when libs/Dems/centrists are trying to paint people to their left as "too extreme" or whatever?
Expecting Mamdani (or any other candidate) to condemn the slogan "globalize the intifada" for example? Is that also a sort of "purity test" that Democrat voters should abandon for the sake of winning?
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The problem is the kind of people who do purity testing to begin with are more concerned with appearing morally superior than they are actually making a better world, no rational argument is going to persuade them out of the sweet dopamine they get from being obnoxious on the Internet.
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
On June 26 2025 16:25 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 09:56 LightSpectra wrote:
Historical fascists were generally pretty incompetent at everything other than controlling public opinion, so that tracks. I still can't accept the reality of people actually sticking with a guy who literally says: "Blame everything that is wrong with the economy on Biden, and praise me for every good thing." And people just eat it.
It's an extremely simple message.
You could say it's tailored to its audience
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On June 26 2025 19:52 Velr wrote:
It also doesn't really explain why the left is so incapable of doing the same.
They obviously try but among allt he purity testing everything just falls into pieces quickly. It's not like the "right" is actually a unified front, they somehow just have realized that winning is more important than being even "righter" than the other.
A certain amount of mudslinging can be quite effective, to a point.
But it can’t carry the day. Eventually you end up at an impasse. Are the problems I’m identifying legit, and are the proposed solutions, good solutions.
Then you see the split between degrees of the left. Moderates think problems are less severe, or possibly equivalent but prefer moderate solutions, the vague opposite is true for the further left.
These will necessitate compromises, frequently not the ones I’d personally prefer.
I mean, yeah one might call them purity tests, alternatively it’s just friction between folks who have certain principles and will stick to them to a degree.
I don’t think it’s unfair to characterise these right-populist swings as being extremely susceptible to bad information, and who are happy with policies that do nothing to boost their station, but hurt some other group in some way. Coupled with a centre-right that’s either unwilling, or unable to really moderate some of that stuff.
It’s not controversial to observe that people’s politics are somewhat tethered to their personalities and thus personal value systems, on average.
I think we’re just seeing that exhibited to some degree as well.
If your playbook is one part legitimate grievances, but a lot of other parts either scapegoating various groups, and a large part actual bullshit and the repetition of said bullshit, it’s not a very effective playbook to folks who don’t wanna scapegoat x group, and who care about veracity to some degree.
I am painting with a gigantically broad brush here of course, but I think broadly the moderate/radical dynamic, and general outlook of those on the left, or ‘psyche’ if you will, does preclude a lot of it being effective.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On June 26 2025 19:41 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 18:31 Magic Powers wrote:On June 26 2025 16:25 KT_Elwood wrote:On June 26 2025 09:56 LightSpectra wrote:
Historical fascists were generally pretty incompetent at everything other than controlling public opinion, so that tracks. I still can't accept the reality of people actually sticking with a guy who literally says: "Blame everything that is wrong with the economy on Biden, and praise me for every good thing." And people just eat it. Various right-wing groups have figured out they can flood social media and use confirmation bias to brainwash people into believing literally anything - such as immigrants eating cats and dogs. There are literally people on this forum who fell for that lie. Trump's onslaught of lies works through repetition. Repetition is a key tool of propaganda. If we want to take back control of the narrative, we have to make use of repetition. Flood the place with our narrative and spend much less time on debunking lies. Just keep pushing the narrative. Create a flood of information that the liars can't keep up with. Just flip the script on the liars. Don't engage with the lie, just keep pushing your narrative. One problem with that is that reality is usually far less sexy than lies. Reality tends to be complex and complicated. Lies can be simple and satisfying. Also, quite often reality is simply "None of that is happening and it is just not a problem", which is a very boring story that no one will repeat. There are some situations we can do that, especially with wealth distribution, but in a lot of situations reality is simply not fit as a simple narrative that plays well with idiots on social media.
That should land, it’s quite a good example. I usually go to housing personally, it’s less abstracted from personal experience.
It really should be a slam-dunk indeed, even then I find a ton of resistance ultimately, often at the ‘how do we fix it?’ stage even amongst those who concede there’s an issue.
It can be quite strange to observe really. On other things, quite explicable. Some are in favour of closing loopholes, raising taxes on things like non-domiciles, or corporations themselves and bringing in extra tax revenue. But they’re equally skeptical about that being a solution to many ills, because sometimes even now it’s not always a lack of funds that is the problem, but it being spent badly.
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ICE arrested a 6-year-old boy with leukemia at immigration court. His family is suing
Just repeating a comment I made before: the reason the Trump admin is so big about rapidly deporting as many people as possible, due process be damned, U.S. citizens caught "by accident" be damned, is because they know the popularity of mass deportations will plummet as more stories like this come out. They need to cause as much harm as fast as possible before even their own base starts to get queezy about it.
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On June 26 2025 20:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 19:52 Velr wrote:
It also doesn't really explain why the left is so incapable of doing the same.
They obviously try but among allt he purity testing everything just falls into pieces quickly. It's not like the "right" is actually a unified front, they somehow just have realized that winning is more important than being even "righter" than the other. When you talk about "purity testing", does that go both ways? Is it "purity testing" when libs/Dems/centrists are trying to paint people to their left as "too extreme" or whatever? Expecting Mamdani (or any other candidate) to condemn the slogan "globalize the intifada" for example? Is that also a sort of "purity test" that Democrat voters should abandon for the sake of winning?
It is strange because I have heard about how everyone here is a lib/dem/centrist and no one has painted him that way, everyone seems legitimately excited and hope he does a good job. I'm not sure if it is your news feed or fox news that you are watching but everything I consume is positive on him. Of course there is fighting at this stage, that is the point of it.
I do think it is weird that your mayor even has a party. None of our civic politicians are related to parties.
On June 26 2025 20:47 LightSpectra wrote:
The problem is the kind of people who do purity testing to begin with are more concerned with appearing morally superior than they are actually making a better world, no rational argument is going to persuade them out of the sweet dopamine they get from being obnoxious on the Internet.
Yeah, anyone actually trying to create change and momentum knows that takes people and soap boxing just chases them away.
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On June 26 2025 22:23 LightSpectra wrote:ICE arrested a 6-year-old boy with leukemia at immigration court. His family is suing Just repeating a comment I made before: the reason the Trump admin is so big about rapidly deporting as many people as possible, due process be damned, U.S. citizens caught "by accident" be damned, is because they know the popularity of mass deportations will plummet as more stories like this come out. They need to cause as much harm as fast as possible before even their own base starts to get queezy about it.
The article specifically says their asylum claim was dismissed in court.
What process do you want?
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On June 26 2025 22:33 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 22:23 LightSpectra wrote:ICE arrested a 6-year-old boy with leukemia at immigration court. His family is suing Just repeating a comment I made before: the reason the Trump admin is so big about rapidly deporting as many people as possible, due process be damned, U.S. citizens caught "by accident" be damned, is because they know the popularity of mass deportations will plummet as more stories like this come out. They need to cause as much harm as fast as possible before even their own base starts to get queezy about it. The article specifically says their asylum claim was dismissed in court. What process do you want?
Literally anything less insanely cruel than this:
"There were men waiting for them in civilian clothing. The men [ICE agents] detained the family for many hours, and it was a terrifying time for the two children and their mother," said Elora Mukherjee, director of the Immigrant Rights Clinic at Columbia Law School.
"They were crying in fear. One of the agents at one point lifted up his shirt, which displayed the gun that he was carrying," Mukherjee said. "The 6-year-old boy was terrified to see the gun. He urinated on himself and wet all his clothing. No one offered him a change of clothing for many hours."
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On June 26 2025 20:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 19:52 Velr wrote:
It also doesn't really explain why the left is so incapable of doing the same.
They obviously try but among allt he purity testing everything just falls into pieces quickly. It's not like the "right" is actually a unified front, they somehow just have realized that winning is more important than being even "righter" than the other. When you talk about "purity testing", does that go both ways? Is it "purity testing" when libs/Dems/centrists are trying to paint people to their left as "too extreme" or whatever? Expecting Mamdani (or any other candidate) to condemn the slogan "globalize the intifada" for example? Is that also a sort of "purity test" that Democrat voters should abandon for the sake of winning?
All i have seen about the dude so far has been nothing but positive (outside my guilty pleasure r/conservative). Let's hope he actually wins the election and will also govern well.
The "worst" thing I saw was people being bewildered why he has to answer questions about Israel/Palestine. Which is another way of wondering: "Why are they purity testing him on stuff he has no influence on allready?".
If libs and dems, think a candidate is "too extreme left" thats probably bad for his election chances. As it seems the Libs and Dems, atleast in NY, were ok with Mamdani tho so I don't see your point.
Let's not talk about (american) self proclaimed centrists, these gotta be the worst of the worst or/and dumbest of the dumbest people, they give libertarians a run for their money.
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On June 26 2025 22:51 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 22:33 oBlade wrote:On June 26 2025 22:23 LightSpectra wrote:ICE arrested a 6-year-old boy with leukemia at immigration court. His family is suing Just repeating a comment I made before: the reason the Trump admin is so big about rapidly deporting as many people as possible, due process be damned, U.S. citizens caught "by accident" be damned, is because they know the popularity of mass deportations will plummet as more stories like this come out. They need to cause as much harm as fast as possible before even their own base starts to get queezy about it. The article specifically says their asylum claim was dismissed in court. What process do you want? Literally anything less insanely cruel than this: "There were men waiting for them in civilian clothing. The men [ICE agents] detained the family for many hours, and it was a terrifying time for the two children and their mother," said Elora Mukherjee, director of the Immigrant Rights Clinic at Columbia Law School. "They were crying in fear. One of the agents at one point lifted up his shirt, which displayed the gun that he was carrying," Mukherjee said. "The 6-year-old boy was terrified to see the gun. He urinated on himself and wet all his clothing. No one offered him a change of clothing for many hours."
ICE doing its job just as intended. Hopefully these stories speed up the path towards widespread reform.
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On June 26 2025 23:43 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 20:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2025 19:52 Velr wrote:
It also doesn't really explain why the left is so incapable of doing the same.
They obviously try but among allt he purity testing everything just falls into pieces quickly. It's not like the "right" is actually a unified front, they somehow just have realized that winning is more important than being even "righter" than the other. When you talk about "purity testing", does that go both ways? Is it "purity testing" when libs/Dems/centrists are trying to paint people to their left as "too extreme" or whatever? Expecting Mamdani (or any other candidate) to condemn the slogan "globalize the intifada" for example? Is that also a sort of "purity test" that Democrat voters should abandon for the sake of winning? All i have seen about the dude so far has been nothing but positive (outside my guilty pleasure r/conservative). Let's hope he actually wins the election and will also govern well. The "worst" thing I saw was people being bewildered why he has to answer questions about Israel/Palestine. Which is another way of wondering: "Why are they purity testing him on stuff he has no influence on allready?". If libs and dems, think a candidate is "too extreme left" thats probably bad for his election chances. As it seems the Libs and Dems, atleast in NY, were ok with Mamdani tho so I don't see your point. Let's not talk about (american) self proclaimed centrists, these gotta be the worst of the worst or/and dumbest of the dumbest people, they give libertarians a run for their money.
Bolded is exactly the problem. And those are the far left morons that think that if you don't make a proclamation, even though you have no control over how it turns out, you're part of the problem and complicit in every bad thing since everything bagel. Mamdani can only influence NYC and maybe regional areas to a certain degree. He doesn't have the power people think he has and the monied interests will make damn sure he doesn't get too big for his britches. I'm rooting for him like I rooted for Johnson in Chicago. Need to get these young leaders in and see what they can accomplish.
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On June 26 2025 22:24 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2025 20:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2025 19:52 Velr wrote:
It also doesn't really explain why the left is so incapable of doing the same.
They obviously try but among allt he purity testing everything just falls into pieces quickly. It's not like the "right" is actually a unified front, they somehow just have realized that winning is more important than being even "righter" than the other. When you talk about "purity testing", does that go both ways? Is it "purity testing" when libs/Dems/centrists are trying to paint people to their left as "too extreme" or whatever? Expecting Mamdani (or any other candidate) to condemn the slogan "globalize the intifada" for example? Is that also a sort of "purity test" that Democrat voters should abandon for the sake of winning? It is strange because I have heard about how everyone here is a lib/dem/centrist and no one has painted him that way, everyone seems legitimately excited and hope he does a good job. I'm not sure if it is your news feed or fox news that you are watching but everything I consume is positive on him. Of course there is fighting at this stage, that is the point of it.
Yes, it stood out starkly to me that the only people anti-Mamdani on these boards were Blackjack and oBlade, who GH has specifically and repeatedly said nobody should spend time arguing with, they are a distraction from the real fight that needs to be had.
Did this cause any moment of realisation for him? Nope, he's still banging on about libs/dems/ilk. It's important to understand just how much GH is himself a "my team good your team bad" blind thinker. It will always be those darn libs/dems/ilk at fault, no matter the issue, no matter what.
We saw active arguments about Mamdani's more socialist policies on these boards, and not a word from GH on those. Just think about that.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_fullsize/plain/did:plc:oldvqjclo55j2rcxlhzaqnyh/bafkreigrf2ab7chuxiesjos7gvrcxruqttutm4eby7sxg7og4h25t3bhqm@jpeg)
