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On February 05 2025 07:21 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:18 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
No Kwark, the point is that there are millions of every day normal rational people who look at the two parties as equally bad. The number of people who are actually happy about what Trump is doing with Immigration and Tarrifs are low compared to the number of Americans who voted for him just because they felt like something had to change when the Democrats were in power.
You need to understand that there are Americans who vote for Republicans just because and I mean JUST because they think the Democrats are trying to take their guns away. I'm not even kidding, there are millions of Americans that do this.
The Republicans have managed to sway the public into arguing over wedge issues that most Americans don't actually care about too much and then have dragged the Democrats into enough of these wedge issue arguments that most Americans just tune out of politics altogether, and every time they pop back up to listen and they see Joe Biden speaking looking like he's struggling to even keep his eyes open, they start to wonder if maybe the Republicans have a point.
You need to actually look around, talk to Republicans, hear why they hate Democrats so much, hear why they are willing to vote for people they KNOW are terrible just because they hate Democrats so much.
You need to understand that Democrats are in BIG BIG trouble. You don't need to agree with Republicans on everything, but you need to be willing to see that the Democrats need to change because if the Democrats keep getting told that they are doing everything right and they keep losing, then nothing is ever going to get any better.
That's literally not what you said. You said that the Democrats can't simply state that the Republicans are proposing racist policies and trust the people to vote against racism, which is right, but you said it from a stance of pro-racism. Your objection was that they were calling out racists and you were proud that you personally never do that. The Democrats weren't wrong that the Republicans are being super fucking racist, they were wrong to think that the people would care. You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead. I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do. I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Whats the concession? Sell out brown people, LGBTQ+ and other minorities? To me it seems like theres a huge portion of Americans who will not vote for you, unless you actively want to throw them in the oven (exaggerated for making a point). Democrats have been treating Republicans with kid gloves and tried to build a bridge with the so-called "sensible republicans", yet all that has gotten for you is an even more extreme Republican party in power, and a huge shift in the Overton window to the right.
Here's the concession, here's all I'm asking for him specifically to do.
Stop calling people racist.
Use any other collection of words. Use any other method of trying to convince people to have empathy and compassion for other people.
Stop using a buzzword and then cutting them off and thinking it's going to get him anywhere.
Because all it does is cause people to disengage with him and tune him out. Just like voters have done with the Democratic Party.
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On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:18 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:04 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
The point you’re making here is that it doesn’t matter how racist the white nationalists get, it’s important to never call them racist. Just sit down with them like rational people and discuss just how many brown people should be sent to the camps. The democrats made the mistake of calling the white nationalists racist. You’re absolutely right. They thought voters would understand that they shouldn’t be voting for the racists but they didn’t have the pulse of the American public at all. No Kwark, the point is that there are millions of every day normal rational people who look at the two parties as equally bad. The number of people who are actually happy about what Trump is doing with Immigration and Tarrifs are low compared to the number of Americans who voted for him just because they felt like something had to change when the Democrats were in power. You need to understand that there are Americans who vote for Republicans just because and I mean JUST because they think the Democrats are trying to take their guns away. I'm not even kidding, there are millions of Americans that do this. The Republicans have managed to sway the public into arguing over wedge issues that most Americans don't actually care about too much and then have dragged the Democrats into enough of these wedge issue arguments that most Americans just tune out of politics altogether, and every time they pop back up to listen and they see Joe Biden speaking looking like he's struggling to even keep his eyes open, they start to wonder if maybe the Republicans have a point. You need to actually look around, talk to Republicans, hear why they hate Democrats so much, hear why they are willing to vote for people they KNOW are terrible just because they hate Democrats so much. You need to understand that Democrats are in BIG BIG trouble. You don't need to agree with Republicans on everything, but you need to be willing to see that the Democrats need to change because if the Democrats keep getting told that they are doing everything right and they keep losing, then nothing is ever going to get any better. That's literally not what you said. You said that the Democrats can't simply state that the Republicans are proposing racist policies and trust the people to vote against racism, which is right, but you said it from a stance of pro-racism. Your objection was that they were calling out racists and you were proud that you personally never do that. The Democrats weren't wrong that the Republicans are being super fucking racist, they were wrong to think that the people would care. You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead. I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do. I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Good news then, Democrats don't want to take away their guns and Republicans are more likely to raise their taxes then Democrats (unless they are millionaires).
So they can still get everything they care about, without having to also support racist policies...
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On February 05 2025 07:15 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:18 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:04 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 05:57 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 05:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]If you don't think Democrats have been instrumental in this becoming the norm you haven't been paying attention.
100%. Do you have any idea how many of my Republican friends online only feel comfortable talking politics with me because I'll actually sit down and talk policy with them? Do you know what would happen if I did nothing but call them bigots and racists? The discussion ends and they stop talking to me. Their positions don't change, only now they aren't even hearing my ideas anymore. That's what the Democrats have done. They've managed to get half of the country to completely tune out to everything they say. Not that they have much good to say anyway which I can say as a Liberal that listens to what they say. They spent the entire election doing nothing but attacking Trump and everyone allied with Trump. They conveniently did nothing to show how they would be any better for the country than Trump was, they just kept hammering away about Trump Trump Trump when that has proven to not work when Hillary tried it in 2016 and lost. The most popular Democrats we have in this country are the ones that stay focused on issues and that communicate those issues clearly and consistently. The number of Democrats that do this on a regular basis are very few, and all of them are hated by the establishment Democrats that run the party. This didn't happen overnight and it didn't start with Trump. The Democrats have been edging towards this inevitable outcome for a long time, because it takes them losing to finally see some motivation for improving their message and their messengers. The point you’re making here is that it doesn’t matter how racist the white nationalists get, it’s important to never call them racist. Just sit down with them like rational people and discuss just how many brown people should be sent to the camps. The democrats made the mistake of calling the white nationalists racist. You’re absolutely right. They thought voters would understand that they shouldn’t be voting for the racists but they didn’t have the pulse of the American public at all. No Kwark, the point is that there are millions of every day normal rational people who look at the two parties as equally bad. The number of people who are actually happy about what Trump is doing with Immigration and Tarrifs are low compared to the number of Americans who voted for him just because they felt like something had to change when the Democrats were in power. You need to understand that there are Americans who vote for Republicans just because and I mean JUST because they think the Democrats are trying to take their guns away. I'm not even kidding, there are millions of Americans that do this. The Republicans have managed to sway the public into arguing over wedge issues that most Americans don't actually care about too much and then have dragged the Democrats into enough of these wedge issue arguments that most Americans just tune out of politics altogether, and every time they pop back up to listen and they see Joe Biden speaking looking like he's struggling to even keep his eyes open, they start to wonder if maybe the Republicans have a point. You need to actually look around, talk to Republicans, hear why they hate Democrats so much, hear why they are willing to vote for people they KNOW are terrible just because they hate Democrats so much. You need to understand that Democrats are in BIG BIG trouble. You don't need to agree with Republicans on everything, but you need to be willing to see that the Democrats need to change because if the Democrats keep getting told that they are doing everything right and they keep losing, then nothing is ever going to get any better. That's literally not what you said. You said that the Democrats can't simply state that the Republicans are proposing racist policies and trust the people to vote against racism, which is right, but you said it from a stance of pro-racism. Your objection was that they were calling out racists and you were proud that you personally never do that. The Democrats weren't wrong that the Republicans are being super fucking racist, they were wrong to think that the people would care. You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead. I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do. I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). There are a lot of people who are in this very weird space with racism, their racism is very casual, its not KKK white supremacy racism, its just sort of a milder brand of racism-by-osmosis through living in Republican places, these people aren't really even super conscious of how theyre racist, they dont see themselves as being hateful, theyre not super plugged into politics, etc. These people are totally changeable, I have pulled people from this place and got them to the left of Democrats by talking to them, reinforcing some of their previously held notions, specifically about how the rich elites fuck us over, how wages suck, politicians are only in it for themselves, etc. All of these things that could be used as Republican talking points, rich elite pedophile pizza parties, immigrants make wages bad, politicians bad means all government bad, etc. But I reframe them with a more leftward bias, rich elites fuck us over, we should make them pay their taxes like we do, wages suck we should unionize and demand better wages since we do all the actual work at our jobs, politicians are corrupt, we need money out of politics, etc. and they seem pretty receptive in my experience. Its small, groundwork type shit, but its infinitely more productive than calling people racist (even if they are being racist) and praying that the average fuckin' american is introspective enough to figure themselves out of racism from there lmao. Doing that is still work, not everyone should feel obliged to do it, but it is helpful in ways that volunteering at a polling place or something is not. Bernie's biggest success (Claims Adjustor CEO Killer Man too) was managing to actually find some interesting overlap between Americans. Too bad Democrats are terrified of that sort of leftwing rhetoric and would rather cede to fascism and replay their same old 30 year old dumbass consultant backed playbook than shift to an obvious opening that might have not only smothered this fascist movement in it's crib but brought genuine positive change and hope to people. But shit, gotta make sure those good billionaire donors can become trillionaires soon, I mean god forbid it took them another 20-30 years to hit that milestone.
Nailed it. I was going to add something to this effect: I've spent a lot of time around people like this. They're racist. Pointing it out mostly isn't helpful. Telling them not to do specifically racist things around you is helpful (within reason).
For me I usually just focus on how it doesn't make rational sense that people are able to produce so much more than they could just 50 years ago (find some example high-tech/fancy thing they relate to), but it's so much harder to just have food, shelter, transportation, and education that aren't really much better than what was standard in the 70's. In fact, you could be living, driving, and being educated/having your children educated in products of the 70's even still today in the US while just scraping by.
There has to be a story and it isn't immigrants. If they really aren't super racist they'll be hungry for an explanation for how that is happening. One problem with Democrats is in the interest of protecting their "good billionaire" donors they give people a half-assed story that people immediately recognize as not the whole thing because they are trying not to indict their own billionaires, just the bad ones that donate to Republicans.
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I will say that converting people is hard work and requires a lot of patience and willingness to overlook casual racism in the name of subverting that energy into something less crappy, assuming that casual racism isnt actually serious racism in the first place.
Its not easy, noone should blame anyone for not having the ability/willpower/tolerance to do it, but it would be a better world if more people were doing it.
Democrats should definitely be doing it since its very directly in their own best interest though lol
Nailed it. I was going to add something to this effect: I've spent a lot of time around people like this. They're racist. Pointing it out mostly isn't helpful. Telling them not to do specifically racist things around you is helpful (within reason).
Yeah, I've had success with just asking people not to use the N-word around me because it makes me uncomfortable, as long as theyre not raging assholes theyre usually fine with the request and it seems to make them reflect not on the societal appropriateness of language, but on the impact that language can have on individuals and I imagine thats why theyre more receptive when I've done this.
For me I usually just focus on how it doesn't make rational sense that people are able to produce so much more than they could just 50 years ago (find some example high-tech/fancy ), but it's so much harder to just have food, shelter, transportation, and education that aren't really better much better than what was standard in the 70's. In fact, you could be living, driving, and being educated/having your children educated in products of the 70's even still today in the US while just scraping by.
There has to be a story and it isn't immigrants. If they really aren't super racist they'll be hungry for an explanation for how that is happening. One problem with Democrats is in the interest of protecting their "good billionaire" donors they give people a half-assed story that people immediately recognize as not the whole thing because they are trying not to indict their own billionaires, just the bad ones that donate to Republicans.
Honestly this is one of the perks of ignorance, these people have some vague notions and feelings but no real structure to their beliefs, its really not hard to direct things like notions and feelings towards avenues other than hating The Mexicans™, the difficulty is in reaching these people, usually takes being a somewhat consistent friendly presence in their lives. A lot of the answers that someone on the left can give can feel really common-sense-y which also appeals to them, no need to overexplain fucking spreadsheets like some mindnumbing accountant with precisely no relatable experience to someone breaking their back in a warehouse.
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On February 05 2025 07:23 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:21 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
That's literally not what you said. You said that the Democrats can't simply state that the Republicans are proposing racist policies and trust the people to vote against racism, which is right, but you said it from a stance of pro-racism. Your objection was that they were calling out racists and you were proud that you personally never do that.
The Democrats weren't wrong that the Republicans are being super fucking racist, they were wrong to think that the people would care. You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead. I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do. I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Whats the concession? Sell out brown people, LGBTQ+ and other minorities? To me it seems like theres a huge portion of Americans who will not vote for you, unless you actively want to throw them in the oven (exaggerated for making a point). Democrats have been treating Republicans with kid gloves and tried to build a bridge with the so-called "sensible republicans", yet all that has gotten for you is an even more extreme Republican party in power, and a huge shift in the Overton window to the right. Here's the concession, here's all I'm asking for him specifically to do. Stop calling people racist. Use any other collection of words. Use any other method of trying to convince people to have empathy and compassion for other people. Stop using a buzzword and then cutting them off and thinking it's going to get him anywhere. Because all it does is cause people to disengage with him and tune him out. Just like voters have done with the Democratic Party.
I mean i'm looking at this from the outside, and apart from like the university lefty "sjw gets owned by facts and logic"-types, Democrats have been super kind to Republicans. They've handed out the olive branch for a long time to the right (more than i would like them to) but all they get for that work is more radicalized Republicans and also left wingers abandon them because theyre trying to speak sense into a cult.
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On February 05 2025 07:30 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:21 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead.
I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do.
I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Whats the concession? Sell out brown people, LGBTQ+ and other minorities? To me it seems like theres a huge portion of Americans who will not vote for you, unless you actively want to throw them in the oven (exaggerated for making a point). Democrats have been treating Republicans with kid gloves and tried to build a bridge with the so-called "sensible republicans", yet all that has gotten for you is an even more extreme Republican party in power, and a huge shift in the Overton window to the right. Here's the concession, here's all I'm asking for him specifically to do. Stop calling people racist. Use any other collection of words. Use any other method of trying to convince people to have empathy and compassion for other people. Stop using a buzzword and then cutting them off and thinking it's going to get him anywhere. Because all it does is cause people to disengage with him and tune him out. Just like voters have done with the Democratic Party. I mean i'm looking at this from the outside, and apart from like the university lefty "sjw gets owned by facts and logic"-types, Democrats have been super kind to Republicans. They've handed out the olive branch for a long time to the right (more than i would like them to) but all they get for that work is more radicalized Republicans and also left wingers abandon them because theyre trying to speak sense into a cult.
Democrats extend a hand to the Republicans like Liz Cheney, the Republicans noone likes, they appeal in ways that make them look like beliefless Republican-lite, they need to appeal from the left with basic shit that feels like common sense and appeals to people's basic dignity. It might be too late for that now though, they've so thoroughly created a brand of having no opinions or beliefs and of being weak and ineffective when governing that I'm not sure anyone would believe them even if they did start saying all the right things.
If Democrats want to see any real success theyre going to have to go Blue Trump whenever they next win (assuming theyre ever allowed to win an election again) and make Americans feel very very positive about their performance.
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I just say democrats campaign on the belief for equal rights for all, implement it, and leave it at that. Getting bogged down on specifics is a sure fire way to alienate some people. Just say equal rights and implement the policies. Dont let Republicans try to control the narrative and make everything about trans issues or other issues. Equal rights includes all minority groups by default.
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Or dont bring it up at all and just do it when theyre in power. Ignore it, let Republicans bitch and moan. Bitching and moaning about trans people isnt going to feel important if Democrats can manage to make housing and food genuinely affordable. Just also help trans people while they do that. Just fuckin' help people, like damn.
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On February 05 2025 07:28 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:18 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
No Kwark, the point is that there are millions of every day normal rational people who look at the two parties as equally bad. The number of people who are actually happy about what Trump is doing with Immigration and Tarrifs are low compared to the number of Americans who voted for him just because they felt like something had to change when the Democrats were in power.
You need to understand that there are Americans who vote for Republicans just because and I mean JUST because they think the Democrats are trying to take their guns away. I'm not even kidding, there are millions of Americans that do this.
The Republicans have managed to sway the public into arguing over wedge issues that most Americans don't actually care about too much and then have dragged the Democrats into enough of these wedge issue arguments that most Americans just tune out of politics altogether, and every time they pop back up to listen and they see Joe Biden speaking looking like he's struggling to even keep his eyes open, they start to wonder if maybe the Republicans have a point.
You need to actually look around, talk to Republicans, hear why they hate Democrats so much, hear why they are willing to vote for people they KNOW are terrible just because they hate Democrats so much.
You need to understand that Democrats are in BIG BIG trouble. You don't need to agree with Republicans on everything, but you need to be willing to see that the Democrats need to change because if the Democrats keep getting told that they are doing everything right and they keep losing, then nothing is ever going to get any better.
That's literally not what you said. You said that the Democrats can't simply state that the Republicans are proposing racist policies and trust the people to vote against racism, which is right, but you said it from a stance of pro-racism. Your objection was that they were calling out racists and you were proud that you personally never do that. The Democrats weren't wrong that the Republicans are being super fucking racist, they were wrong to think that the people would care. You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead. I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do. I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Good news then, Democrats don't want to take away their guns and Republicans are more likely to raise their taxes then Democrats (unless they are millionaires). So they can still get everything they care about, without having to also support racist policies...
You know how many times I've tried to explain that to them? They don't believe me or they ask why they never hear any Democrat on TV talking about these things.
Democrats need to hammer these issues a lot more. They need to take the guns issue away from Republicans, and they need to make a bigger point of talking about how harmful for working and middle class people Republican tax policy is, and they need to do it where Republicans will actually hear them.
They don't though. Outside of a few choice progressives none of the Democrats want to actually talk about these things, they'd rather just keep hammering away at whatever wedge issue the Republican media machine decided was important this month.
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United States41934 Posts
On February 05 2025 07:20 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:19 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:18 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
That's literally not what you said. You said that the Democrats can't simply state that the Republicans are proposing racist policies and trust the people to vote against racism, which is right, but you said it from a stance of pro-racism. Your objection was that they were calling out racists and you were proud that you personally never do that.
The Democrats weren't wrong that the Republicans are being super fucking racist, they were wrong to think that the people would care. You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead. I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do. I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. I absolutely don’t need to make concessions, least of all to the lines of you. I don’t owe you shit. We’re not on the same side. Holy shit, its the Democrat party platform
Oh please, you wish the Democrats were half as radical as I am.
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United States41934 Posts
On February 05 2025 07:40 Sadist wrote:
I just say democrats campaign on the belief for equal rights for all, implement it, and leave it at that. Getting bogged down on specifics is a sure fire way to alienate some people. Just say equal rights and implement the policies. Dont let Republicans try to control the narrative and make everything about trans issues or other issues. Equal rights includes all minority groups by default.
They literally couldn't get people to agree with the statement that black lives matter. That was apparently a bridge too far for America.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On February 05 2025 07:30 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:21 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead.
I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do.
I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Whats the concession? Sell out brown people, LGBTQ+ and other minorities? To me it seems like theres a huge portion of Americans who will not vote for you, unless you actively want to throw them in the oven (exaggerated for making a point). Democrats have been treating Republicans with kid gloves and tried to build a bridge with the so-called "sensible republicans", yet all that has gotten for you is an even more extreme Republican party in power, and a huge shift in the Overton window to the right. Here's the concession, here's all I'm asking for him specifically to do. Stop calling people racist. Use any other collection of words. Use any other method of trying to convince people to have empathy and compassion for other people. Stop using a buzzword and then cutting them off and thinking it's going to get him anywhere. Because all it does is cause people to disengage with him and tune him out. Just like voters have done with the Democratic Party. I mean i'm looking at this from the outside, and apart from like the university lefty "sjw gets owned by facts and logic"-types, Democrats have been super kind to Republicans. They've handed out the olive branch for a long time to the right (more than i would like them to) but all they get for that work is more radicalized Republicans and also left wingers abandon them because theyre trying to speak sense into a cult.
I’d broadly agree with this.
Between 2016 and Brexit (today’s obligatory mention), a metric fuckton of the post-mortem was around exactly this, and that to offend people’s sensibilities and alienate their potential vote was a strategic error and should be sidestepped in future.
Despite arguably being amongst the most true things to ever leave her mouth, Clinton’s ‘deplorables’ was considered as a huge gaffe, perhaps the biggest she made all campaign. In the UK there was much soul-searching over that shitshow, with one of the takeaways being ‘maybe not selling the benefits of the EU and focusing a lot of energy calling folks who wanted to leave for migration reasons racist maybe wasn’t the best foot to put forward.’
I’d say broadly, parties like the Dems, or Labour in the UK have somewhat consistently done this. Sure without 100% discipline on everyone’s messaging, all the time.
It is absolutely rampant online in general of course, but it’s noticeably less pronounced from actual politicians.
So we’ve seen a shift from ‘I can’t vote for the Democrats because one of their representatives said someone with my views is a racist’, to ‘I can’t vote for the Dems because some Redditor or whatever called me a racist.’
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On February 05 2025 06:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 06:39 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:37 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:32 RenSC2 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:10 RenSC2 wrote:On February 05 2025 05:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 05:26 Gorsameth wrote:On February 05 2025 05:24 Vindicare605 wrote:
I wonder if Democarts are starting to get it yet. That they fucked up THIS badly by letting all of this happen.
Everything that Trump is doing is straight out of Project 2025. We've known about Project 2025 for years, and yet despite knowing what the Republicans wanted to do, they ran Joe Biden again when he was so old and unfit that he couldn't even make it all the way through the election.
I hope they're proud of themselves. I hope the Democratic Party leadership is so happy that good thing they stuck to seniority and making sure to put "electable candidates" first, that they are happy watching everything go to complete hell, because at least they stuck to their precious gameplan. /barf I tend to blame voters for who they vote for, not the opposition. Maybe its a weird 'non-American' thing. And you think blaming Trump voters for getting exactly what they want is going to do anything? This is like blaming a 5 year old for pooping in the toy aisle at Walmart. You're not supposed to blame the 5 year old you're supposed to blame the parent who is supposed to prevent it from happening. The Democrats don't represent me, they never have. I'm not a member of their party because I can't stand how they keep trying to toe this line of being socially liberal but only when it's convenient, and being for workers' rights but only when big business says its ok. The only fucking purpose they serve is to keep the Republicans out of power, or at the very least to hold enough power in Congress to stop them from going completely crazy unchecked. They don't have any of it now. They lost the Executive, both branches of Congress and we have a Supreme Court stacked with Conservatives for the next 30 years. When the fuck am I supposed to get mad at the Democrats? Never? They've managed to lose so badly that we are staring down a government that is going to cause such fucking chaos that it will take 100 years to fix if we ever do manage to fix it. They are a failure of a political party and they need to fucking hear it. Because if they are allowed to keep running the same plays over and over again, this is NEVER going to get any better. In your analogy, you have the Democrats in the role of the parent and the Republicans in the role of the 5 year old shitting in the aisle. Why do you think the Democrats are the parent of the Republicans? The Democrats are not the parents, they are peers. The Democrats are another 5 year old classmate of the Republicans. They may not be great, but they aren't shitting in the aisles and they're not responsible for their peer doing the shitting. So why are you yelling at a kid because they didn't stop another kid from shitting in the aisle? The Democrats are not the parents, the voters are. The Republican voters birthed this aisle shitting kid and let that kid get away with it. Hell, they seem to think it's funny and encourage it. So get fucking mad at the parents that keep encouraging their kid to shit in the aisle. Of course, you can stand on the sideline, not have kids, and claim your moral superiority. However, someone's fucking kid is going to be running this country, so you should probably help raise that kid to be better instead. Usually that doesn't mean ignoring your kid for not being good enough, it means giving them guidance. I'm all for that. Tell the Democrats what you want and (here's where the analogy breaks down) pick the best primary candidates to put up against the aisle shitting kid. You had every right to vote Jason Palmer, Marianne Williamson, or Dean Phillips along with every other Democrat voter. Instead, they voted for Biden. Other potential major candidates were too chicken shit to run against him. If you think Biden was the wrong kid to put forward, then your problem is with the voter and the other candidates too scared to run. Still, the main fault is with the people who have encouraged and enabled the Republicans and those people are the Republican Voters. Don't ever forget that. Your argument falls apart when the Democrats make it a point to either rig the primary or prevent us from having an open primary altogether. Oh yea did you forget that the last time we actually had a full primary was 2016? If the Democrats had had their way, the next time we would have had actually had an open primary would have been in 2032. You don't think knowing that STILL pisses me off? Oh you can be sure that it does. What are you even talking about? 16.6 million people voted in the Democratic primary in 2024. You had the right to vote in it. Did you? There were 4 candidates and Biden got about 14.5 million of those votes, so he won. That's what a primary is. The Republicans also had a primary. They had 10+ candidates, 22.3 million votes cast and 17 million went to Trump. That was also a primary. The voters decided. You calling it rigged is just right wing propaganda. You believed the lies. The 2016 super delegates never mattered. Clinton beat Sanders by millions of votes 16.9 to 13.2 million. The 2020 election was even a bigger landslide for Biden at 19 million to Sander's 9.7 million. Those are all primaries. They were open and the person with the most votes won in every case. Quit believing the lies. You're not being serious. Not a single serious candidate ran in the primary in 2024 because Joe Biden was running as an incumbent President. You know and I know that the 2024 primary wasn't a serious primary and the fact the election results were as one sided as they were is clear evidence of that. The rigged primary I'm talking about is 2016's primary. You care to review how that one went again? It literally wasn’t rigged, Hillary beat Bernie without counting superdelegates. And how would it had gone if the Superdelegates hadn't all pledged their support for Hillary Clinton at the start of the fucking primary? Easy to see how someone can be swayed into voting for the candidate that is being touted as the only "legitimate" candidate in the party when all of the Superdelegates are pledged to her before the primary is even over. So there were two different ways of counting, the rigged way which we just the rules of the contest, and the unrigged way which is what you think the rules should have been. Under both methods she won which you take to mean that it was rigged.
While I don't really think Bernie would ever have won the primary, it definitely wasn't a fair primary. For starters, Bernie knew the superdelegates did count, and kinda gave up on campaigning after he lost in NY and a bunch of other states. If the superdelegates didn't exist, the race would still have been a lot tighter at that point, and maybe he would've continued to campaign, and maybe even have won. The other effect of the superdelegates voting early is that it gave the impression that no matter what, the deck was stacked against Bernie, which could dampen the vote for him: if your candidate has lost already anyway, why bother voting? The question is whether that effect is bigger than the underdog vote that having all those superdelegates stacked against him brought to the polling stations. But we'll never know.
But rehashing the 2016 primary seems like one of the least productive uses of this thread in a while, and for a thread that usually spends its time discussing Trump's latest brainfarts that is saying a lot.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On February 05 2025 07:30 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:21 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead.
I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do.
I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Whats the concession? Sell out brown people, LGBTQ+ and other minorities? To me it seems like theres a huge portion of Americans who will not vote for you, unless you actively want to throw them in the oven (exaggerated for making a point). Democrats have been treating Republicans with kid gloves and tried to build a bridge with the so-called "sensible republicans", yet all that has gotten for you is an even more extreme Republican party in power, and a huge shift in the Overton window to the right. Here's the concession, here's all I'm asking for him specifically to do. Stop calling people racist. Use any other collection of words. Use any other method of trying to convince people to have empathy and compassion for other people. Stop using a buzzword and then cutting them off and thinking it's going to get him anywhere. Because all it does is cause people to disengage with him and tune him out. Just like voters have done with the Democratic Party. I mean i'm looking at this from the outside, and apart from like the university lefty "sjw gets owned by facts and logic"-types, Democrats have been super kind to Republicans. They've handed out the olive branch for a long time to the right (more than i would like them to) but all they get for that work is more radicalized Republicans and also left wingers abandon them because theyre trying to speak sense into a cult.
On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:18 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:04 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
The point you’re making here is that it doesn’t matter how racist the white nationalists get, it’s important to never call them racist. Just sit down with them like rational people and discuss just how many brown people should be sent to the camps. The democrats made the mistake of calling the white nationalists racist. You’re absolutely right. They thought voters would understand that they shouldn’t be voting for the racists but they didn’t have the pulse of the American public at all. No Kwark, the point is that there are millions of every day normal rational people who look at the two parties as equally bad. The number of people who are actually happy about what Trump is doing with Immigration and Tarrifs are low compared to the number of Americans who voted for him just because they felt like something had to change when the Democrats were in power. You need to understand that there are Americans who vote for Republicans just because and I mean JUST because they think the Democrats are trying to take their guns away. I'm not even kidding, there are millions of Americans that do this. The Republicans have managed to sway the public into arguing over wedge issues that most Americans don't actually care about too much and then have dragged the Democrats into enough of these wedge issue arguments that most Americans just tune out of politics altogether, and every time they pop back up to listen and they see Joe Biden speaking looking like he's struggling to even keep his eyes open, they start to wonder if maybe the Republicans have a point. You need to actually look around, talk to Republicans, hear why they hate Democrats so much, hear why they are willing to vote for people they KNOW are terrible just because they hate Democrats so much. You need to understand that Democrats are in BIG BIG trouble. You don't need to agree with Republicans on everything, but you need to be willing to see that the Democrats need to change because if the Democrats keep getting told that they are doing everything right and they keep losing, then nothing is ever going to get any better. That's literally not what you said. You said that the Democrats can't simply state that the Republicans are proposing racist policies and trust the people to vote against racism, which is right, but you said it from a stance of pro-racism. Your objection was that they were calling out racists and you were proud that you personally never do that. The Democrats weren't wrong that the Republicans are being super fucking racist, they were wrong to think that the people would care. You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead. I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do. I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am.
Then don’t discuss politics at all would be my concession. One I do apply from time to time in my life when I’m with people who I know will react badly to me being critical for some of their positions.
Now, I will concede that charges of various forms of bigotry are definitely overused, and are can be counter-productive and alienating.
We’re also in 2025, not 2016. Many unknowns are now very much known knowns, (not sure about unknown unknowns). There’s no plausible deniability anymore, people know exactly what they’re voting for on a Trump ticket.
It’s not just a bit of racist dogwhistling here or there, there is just so much about his platform and indeed person that I find absolutely morally repugnant. You better have a damn good reason, such as the other candidate being Mecha HitlerTM, or I’m going to be critical of that choice.
There are alternatives here if one doesn’t wanna be called x y or z, such as not supporting the dude who’s doing x y and z.
One could, for example, vote for your local neighbourhood Spider-Man, or State legislator, who are absolute gun freaks and tax hawks but more moderate, and go ‘Yanno what this Trump guy takes it a bit far, I’ll stay at home or go 3rd Party this time.’
Overall political discourse yeah, it can be toxic as fuck these days. But a big, and I feel underdiscussed aspect of that isn’t just the name-calling, it’s people who can’t take any criticism, nor want to actually learn and inform their positions. Across the ideological spectrum too, nobody has a particular monopoly on that.
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On February 05 2025 08:27 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:30 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 07:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:21 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Whats the concession? Sell out brown people, LGBTQ+ and other minorities? To me it seems like theres a huge portion of Americans who will not vote for you, unless you actively want to throw them in the oven (exaggerated for making a point). Democrats have been treating Republicans with kid gloves and tried to build a bridge with the so-called "sensible republicans", yet all that has gotten for you is an even more extreme Republican party in power, and a huge shift in the Overton window to the right. Here's the concession, here's all I'm asking for him specifically to do. Stop calling people racist. Use any other collection of words. Use any other method of trying to convince people to have empathy and compassion for other people. Stop using a buzzword and then cutting them off and thinking it's going to get him anywhere. Because all it does is cause people to disengage with him and tune him out. Just like voters have done with the Democratic Party. I mean i'm looking at this from the outside, and apart from like the university lefty "sjw gets owned by facts and logic"-types, Democrats have been super kind to Republicans. They've handed out the olive branch for a long time to the right (more than i would like them to) but all they get for that work is more radicalized Republicans and also left wingers abandon them because theyre trying to speak sense into a cult. Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:18 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
No Kwark, the point is that there are millions of every day normal rational people who look at the two parties as equally bad. The number of people who are actually happy about what Trump is doing with Immigration and Tarrifs are low compared to the number of Americans who voted for him just because they felt like something had to change when the Democrats were in power.
You need to understand that there are Americans who vote for Republicans just because and I mean JUST because they think the Democrats are trying to take their guns away. I'm not even kidding, there are millions of Americans that do this.
The Republicans have managed to sway the public into arguing over wedge issues that most Americans don't actually care about too much and then have dragged the Democrats into enough of these wedge issue arguments that most Americans just tune out of politics altogether, and every time they pop back up to listen and they see Joe Biden speaking looking like he's struggling to even keep his eyes open, they start to wonder if maybe the Republicans have a point.
You need to actually look around, talk to Republicans, hear why they hate Democrats so much, hear why they are willing to vote for people they KNOW are terrible just because they hate Democrats so much.
You need to understand that Democrats are in BIG BIG trouble. You don't need to agree with Republicans on everything, but you need to be willing to see that the Democrats need to change because if the Democrats keep getting told that they are doing everything right and they keep losing, then nothing is ever going to get any better.
That's literally not what you said. You said that the Democrats can't simply state that the Republicans are proposing racist policies and trust the people to vote against racism, which is right, but you said it from a stance of pro-racism. Your objection was that they were calling out racists and you were proud that you personally never do that. The Democrats weren't wrong that the Republicans are being super fucking racist, they were wrong to think that the people would care. You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead. I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do. I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Then don’t discuss politics at all would be my concession. One I do apply from time to time in my life when I’m with people who I know will react badly to me being critical for some of their positions. Now, I will concede that charges of various forms of bigotry are definitely overused, and are can be counter-productive and alienating. We’re also in 2025, not 2016. Many unknowns are now very much known knowns, (not sure about unknown unknowns). There’s no plausible deniability anymore, people know exactly what they’re voting for on a Trump ticket. It’s not just a bit of racist dogwhistling here or there, there is just so much about his platform and indeed person that I find absolutely morally repugnant. You better have a damn good reason, such as the other candidate being Mecha HitlerTM, or I’m going to be critical of that choice. There are alternatives here if one doesn’t wanna be called x y or z, such as not supporting the dude who’s doing x y and z. One could, for example, vote for your local neighbourhood Spider-Man, or State legislator, who are absolute gun freaks and tax hawks but more moderate, and go ‘Yanno what this Trump guy takes it a bit far, I’ll stay at home or go 3rd Party this time.’ Overall political discourse yeah, it can be toxic as fuck these days. But a big, and I feel underdiscussed aspect of that isn’t just the name-calling, it’s people who can’t take any criticism, nor want to actually learn and inform their positions. Across the ideological spectrum too, nobody has a particular monopoly on that.
This has been my stance for a long time. I simply refuse to engage with certain individuals irl because it's not going to do anything. My best friend that I grew up with voted trump in 2016 and once he saw that that was a sham, asked me more questions and he eventually went the other way, voting Democrat in the last 2. Not everyone in the family is on the same page, but for the most part, his circle seems to be mostly democrats or liberal Rs, if that can be a thing. They don't support trump at all, but some of the party policies state-wise, they get behind.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On February 05 2025 08:25 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 06:42 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:39 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:37 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:32 RenSC2 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:10 RenSC2 wrote:On February 05 2025 05:33 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 05:26 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]I tend to blame voters for who they vote for, not the opposition.
Maybe its a weird 'non-American' thing.
And you think blaming Trump voters for getting exactly what they want is going to do anything? This is like blaming a 5 year old for pooping in the toy aisle at Walmart. You're not supposed to blame the 5 year old you're supposed to blame the parent who is supposed to prevent it from happening. The Democrats don't represent me, they never have. I'm not a member of their party because I can't stand how they keep trying to toe this line of being socially liberal but only when it's convenient, and being for workers' rights but only when big business says its ok. The only fucking purpose they serve is to keep the Republicans out of power, or at the very least to hold enough power in Congress to stop them from going completely crazy unchecked. They don't have any of it now. They lost the Executive, both branches of Congress and we have a Supreme Court stacked with Conservatives for the next 30 years. When the fuck am I supposed to get mad at the Democrats? Never? They've managed to lose so badly that we are staring down a government that is going to cause such fucking chaos that it will take 100 years to fix if we ever do manage to fix it. They are a failure of a political party and they need to fucking hear it. Because if they are allowed to keep running the same plays over and over again, this is NEVER going to get any better. In your analogy, you have the Democrats in the role of the parent and the Republicans in the role of the 5 year old shitting in the aisle. Why do you think the Democrats are the parent of the Republicans? The Democrats are not the parents, they are peers. The Democrats are another 5 year old classmate of the Republicans. They may not be great, but they aren't shitting in the aisles and they're not responsible for their peer doing the shitting. So why are you yelling at a kid because they didn't stop another kid from shitting in the aisle? The Democrats are not the parents, the voters are. The Republican voters birthed this aisle shitting kid and let that kid get away with it. Hell, they seem to think it's funny and encourage it. So get fucking mad at the parents that keep encouraging their kid to shit in the aisle. Of course, you can stand on the sideline, not have kids, and claim your moral superiority. However, someone's fucking kid is going to be running this country, so you should probably help raise that kid to be better instead. Usually that doesn't mean ignoring your kid for not being good enough, it means giving them guidance. I'm all for that. Tell the Democrats what you want and (here's where the analogy breaks down) pick the best primary candidates to put up against the aisle shitting kid. You had every right to vote Jason Palmer, Marianne Williamson, or Dean Phillips along with every other Democrat voter. Instead, they voted for Biden. Other potential major candidates were too chicken shit to run against him. If you think Biden was the wrong kid to put forward, then your problem is with the voter and the other candidates too scared to run. Still, the main fault is with the people who have encouraged and enabled the Republicans and those people are the Republican Voters. Don't ever forget that. Your argument falls apart when the Democrats make it a point to either rig the primary or prevent us from having an open primary altogether. Oh yea did you forget that the last time we actually had a full primary was 2016? If the Democrats had had their way, the next time we would have had actually had an open primary would have been in 2032. You don't think knowing that STILL pisses me off? Oh you can be sure that it does. What are you even talking about? 16.6 million people voted in the Democratic primary in 2024. You had the right to vote in it. Did you? There were 4 candidates and Biden got about 14.5 million of those votes, so he won. That's what a primary is. The Republicans also had a primary. They had 10+ candidates, 22.3 million votes cast and 17 million went to Trump. That was also a primary. The voters decided. You calling it rigged is just right wing propaganda. You believed the lies. The 2016 super delegates never mattered. Clinton beat Sanders by millions of votes 16.9 to 13.2 million. The 2020 election was even a bigger landslide for Biden at 19 million to Sander's 9.7 million. Those are all primaries. They were open and the person with the most votes won in every case. Quit believing the lies. You're not being serious. Not a single serious candidate ran in the primary in 2024 because Joe Biden was running as an incumbent President. You know and I know that the 2024 primary wasn't a serious primary and the fact the election results were as one sided as they were is clear evidence of that. The rigged primary I'm talking about is 2016's primary. You care to review how that one went again? It literally wasn’t rigged, Hillary beat Bernie without counting superdelegates. And how would it had gone if the Superdelegates hadn't all pledged their support for Hillary Clinton at the start of the fucking primary? Easy to see how someone can be swayed into voting for the candidate that is being touted as the only "legitimate" candidate in the party when all of the Superdelegates are pledged to her before the primary is even over. So there were two different ways of counting, the rigged way which we just the rules of the contest, and the unrigged way which is what you think the rules should have been. Under both methods she won which you take to mean that it was rigged. While I don't really think Bernie would ever have won the primary, it definitely wasn't a fair primary. For starters, Bernie knew the superdelegates did count, and kinda gave up on campaigning after he lost in NY and a bunch of other states. If the superdelegates didn't exist, the race would still have been a lot tighter at that point, and maybe he would've continued to campaign, and maybe even have won. The other effect of the superdelegates voting early is that it gave the impression that no matter what, the deck was stacked against Bernie, which could dampen the vote for him: if your candidate has lost already anyway, why bother voting? The question is whether that effect is bigger than the underdog vote that having all those superdelegates stacked against him brought to the polling stations. But we'll never know. But rehashing the 2016 primary seems like one of the least productive uses of this thread in a while, and for a thread that usually spends its time discussing Trump's latest brainfarts that is saying a lot.
It also IMO has lingering effects beyond just that cycle, although difficult to quantify. Perception is reality these days after all.
I still harbour a certain degree of ‘fuck you’ to elements of the Labour Party over here and certain media pundits from Corbyn’s first general election tilt. Even though I think he may have lost anyway, look just give him and the left a fair shot, and if it fails, well we’ll likely see a pivot centrally next time.
I always found it a little odd that Sanders never got offered a suitable cabinet role, either in Clinton’s hypothetical administration or subsequently.
Always struck me as such an easy free win, although I guess the Dems aren’t massively fond of those.
Aye we are on a bit of an old tangent, but it’s somewhat preferable to thinking about the latest Trump news for a little while!
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On February 05 2025 08:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:40 Sadist wrote:
I just say democrats campaign on the belief for equal rights for all, implement it, and leave it at that. Getting bogged down on specifics is a sure fire way to alienate some people. Just say equal rights and implement the policies. Dont let Republicans try to control the narrative and make everything about trans issues or other issues. Equal rights includes all minority groups by default.
They literally couldn't get people to agree with the statement that black lives matter. That was apparently a bridge too far for America.
And Democrats don’t even want to Make America Great Again? Do they hate America?
Or we can not pretend these slogans are meat to be taken literally and there’s not an ideology attached to them.
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United States24558 Posts
I did not buy into "Make America Great Again" until I realized how bad it was recently. Now I'm on board with making America great again or at least not terrible.
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On February 05 2025 08:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:40 Sadist wrote:
I just say democrats campaign on the belief for equal rights for all, implement it, and leave it at that. Getting bogged down on specifics is a sure fire way to alienate some people. Just say equal rights and implement the policies. Dont let Republicans try to control the narrative and make everything about trans issues or other issues. Equal rights includes all minority groups by default.
They literally couldn't get people to agree with the statement that black lives matter. That was apparently a bridge too far for America.
Black lives matter, its too specific. Need to be more generic. It also couldve used a too on the end sadly.
Not the greatest of slogans unfortunately.
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On February 05 2025 08:27 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:30 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 07:23 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:21 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Whats the concession? Sell out brown people, LGBTQ+ and other minorities? To me it seems like theres a huge portion of Americans who will not vote for you, unless you actively want to throw them in the oven (exaggerated for making a point). Democrats have been treating Republicans with kid gloves and tried to build a bridge with the so-called "sensible republicans", yet all that has gotten for you is an even more extreme Republican party in power, and a huge shift in the Overton window to the right. Here's the concession, here's all I'm asking for him specifically to do. Stop calling people racist. Use any other collection of words. Use any other method of trying to convince people to have empathy and compassion for other people. Stop using a buzzword and then cutting them off and thinking it's going to get him anywhere. Because all it does is cause people to disengage with him and tune him out. Just like voters have done with the Democratic Party. I mean i'm looking at this from the outside, and apart from like the university lefty "sjw gets owned by facts and logic"-types, Democrats have been super kind to Republicans. They've handed out the olive branch for a long time to the right (more than i would like them to) but all they get for that work is more radicalized Republicans and also left wingers abandon them because theyre trying to speak sense into a cult. Show nested quote +On February 05 2025 07:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 07:11 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:51 Luolis wrote:On February 05 2025 06:29 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:25 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 05 2025 06:18 KwarK wrote:On February 05 2025 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
No Kwark, the point is that there are millions of every day normal rational people who look at the two parties as equally bad. The number of people who are actually happy about what Trump is doing with Immigration and Tarrifs are low compared to the number of Americans who voted for him just because they felt like something had to change when the Democrats were in power.
You need to understand that there are Americans who vote for Republicans just because and I mean JUST because they think the Democrats are trying to take their guns away. I'm not even kidding, there are millions of Americans that do this.
The Republicans have managed to sway the public into arguing over wedge issues that most Americans don't actually care about too much and then have dragged the Democrats into enough of these wedge issue arguments that most Americans just tune out of politics altogether, and every time they pop back up to listen and they see Joe Biden speaking looking like he's struggling to even keep his eyes open, they start to wonder if maybe the Republicans have a point.
You need to actually look around, talk to Republicans, hear why they hate Democrats so much, hear why they are willing to vote for people they KNOW are terrible just because they hate Democrats so much.
You need to understand that Democrats are in BIG BIG trouble. You don't need to agree with Republicans on everything, but you need to be willing to see that the Democrats need to change because if the Democrats keep getting told that they are doing everything right and they keep losing, then nothing is ever going to get any better.
That's literally not what you said. You said that the Democrats can't simply state that the Republicans are proposing racist policies and trust the people to vote against racism, which is right, but you said it from a stance of pro-racism. Your objection was that they were calling out racists and you were proud that you personally never do that. The Democrats weren't wrong that the Republicans are being super fucking racist, they were wrong to think that the people would care. You know what I would do instead? Since I can't get you to understand why throwing the word Racist around gets you negative points with voters, let me tell you what I would do instead. I would propose alternative policy. I would simply go in front of congress, and I would introduce an alternative bill that deals with whatever issue the Republicans are proposing and I would do it in a way that isn't racist as fuck. Instead of focusing everything on illegal immigrants I would introduce bills to punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants, I would introduce new taxes on companies that outsource jobs like Bernie wants to do. I would take the issue and I would spin towards something I wanted done, because at the end of the day, the American public most of all just wants to see things getting done. But when all you do all day is stand at the podium and call people names, that just makes it look like you're wasting everyone's time and more importantly everyone's money. Throwing the word racist around gets you negative points with racists. What you're apparently incapable of understanding is that you're not meant to be racist. It's a bad thing. That's why I'm blaming the American people for being racist and saying that people attacking the democrat platform for being a little racist are missing the point. No Kwark it doesn't. There are dozens of people I talk to, family members I talk to, that are not racist people, that get fed up of being called racist because they support a policy that Republicans support. If they voted for Republicans, at best they ignore their racism and bigotry because they prioritise their own perceived gain over that. I guess you can try to explain yourself around that, but at the end of the day youre fine with hurting other people because you got mad someone called you "racist" (proving the point funnily enough). Guns, and Taxes. That's 90% of why my family members are Republicans. Guns and Taxes. That's literally it. Explain to me how that makes them racist? Whenever we get into arguments about politics at family get togethers, they actually support more Democratic policies than they support Republican policies, but because Guns and Taxes is what they care about the MOST, that's who they vote for. This is a huge reason why I can't stand single issue voters, but that's another topic. Whenever they get roped into all of the trans arguments, and topics about immigration, they sit back and say that they don't want anything to do with any of that. We can't get them to care, because these are simply issues they don't care about. Now what do you think would happen if I called them racist at one of these gatherings for supporting the Republicans? Nothing. Nothing except a big fight about how could I call them racist when their parents are 1st generation Mexican and they have a wife who is black? Nothing changes about any of their political opinions except now I've just made the entire get together one big hostile place, where I'm now the asshole for ruining everyone's good time. Do you get it now? Do you get how throwing around the word racist doesn't do anything to help anybody? Being willing to sell out people of a different race because of gun ownership fearmongering is a pretty racist thing to do. Voting for racists pledging to enact racism is a racist thing to do, even if you didn’t vote for them specifically for the racism. It’s a dealbreaker for non racists. You need to make concessions somewhere Kwark, because in a Democracy, you can't afford to isolate every single person that doesn't conform exactly to your EXTREMELY strict rules about what makes them a racist or not. Because like I said. The Democrats are losers. They've lost to Donald Trump twice now, and even if the Democrats somehow manage to win in 2028, we still have 30 years at minimum of a Supreme Court that is stacked full of Republicans. At some point you need to step back and ask yourself if you're tired of your side losing, because I sure as hell am. Then don’t discuss politics at all would be my concession. One I do apply from time to time in my life when I’m with people who I know will react badly to me being critical for some of their positions. Now, I will concede that charges of various forms of bigotry are definitely overused, and are can be counter-productive and alienating. We’re also in 2025, not 2016. Many unknowns are now very much known knowns, (not sure about unknown unknowns). There’s no plausible deniability anymore, people know exactly what they’re voting for on a Trump ticket. It’s not just a bit of racist dogwhistling here or there, there is just so much about his platform and indeed person that I find absolutely morally repugnant. You better have a damn good reason, such as the other candidate being Mecha HitlerTM, or I’m going to be critical of that choice. There are alternatives here if one doesn’t wanna be called x y or z, such as not supporting the dude who’s doing x y and z. One could, for example, vote for your local neighbourhood Spider-Man, or State legislator, who are absolute gun freaks and tax hawks but more moderate, and go ‘Yanno what this Trump guy takes it a bit far, I’ll stay at home or go 3rd Party this time.’ Overall political discourse yeah, it can be toxic as fuck these days. But a big, and I feel underdiscussed aspect of that isn’t just the name-calling, it’s people who can’t take any criticism, nor want to actually learn and inform their positions. Across the ideological spectrum too, nobody has a particular monopoly on that.
Look, everyone going back to their side of the room and not talking to each other might be an acceptable strategy if the Democrats are still winning.
But the Democrats lost. Again. And this time the Democrats lost all 3 branches of government. It hasn't even been a month under the second Donald Trump administration and it feels like Donald Trump has already set us back 20 years in terms of how long it's going to take to fix all of the problems he's causing.
Something needs to give here. The Democrats can't keep running the same play book over and over again when it's clearly not working.
At some point Democrats need to have the uncomfortable conversation with themselves that somehow despite being the party that is on the right side of almost every issue that they are so unpopular with the country that the country would rather elect these assholes than them.
I know from what I've experienced and heard what I think they should change, but it frankly baffles me that people in this thread think the Democrats don't need to change anything and want to run it back again, after what we've seen in the last 3 elections.
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EPT
