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Northern Ireland23136 Posts
On December 03 2024 13:09 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 12:29 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 12:06 Azuzu wrote:On December 03 2024 11:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2024 23:23 Gahlo wrote:
The case against Hunter is entirely bunk. The only thing that resulted of it is MTG getting wank material. You guys realize the Republicans say the EXACT same thing about the Trump lawsuits right? You guys realize how all of this breaks down public trust in even the very belief in rule of law in this country right? I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now. They are retroactively justifying ALL of the Whataboutisms that Republicans have been running with over the last 8 years. We just had a referendum on rule of law, decorum, norms, and sanity and all of those things lost. The electorate doesn't care. I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now either. They lost the election hugely and are still peddling the same nonsense that if Democrats just keep on maintaining norms, they can really stick it to those Republicans. In fact they need to maintain decorum even harder! That'll show 'em. I see so little engagement about whether the pardon is actually morally the right thing to do, and tons of Democrats willing to jump down Biden's throat about the optics of it. Certain norms are worth preserving regardless. Additionally if you say something like, I don’t know ‘I’m not going to pardon Hunter Biden’ and you go to do so, well it sends a certain message. Democrat voters also seem to care more about such things, they’re not Trump cultists and this kind of move just further disenfranchises a certain demographic who actually value principles Exactly. Just keep alienating the liberal base Democrats, because it's working SO well for you in the general elections. The next time the Democrats want to pretend like they occupy some kind of moral high ground and it doesn't move the electorate even the tiniest bit and they can't figure out why, shit like this is why. No one believes the Democrats are any better than the Republicans are, they're just better at virtue signaling that they care about stuff like this when they actually don't
This.
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On December 03 2024 13:09 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 12:29 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 12:06 Azuzu wrote:On December 03 2024 11:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2024 23:23 Gahlo wrote:
The case against Hunter is entirely bunk. The only thing that resulted of it is MTG getting wank material. You guys realize the Republicans say the EXACT same thing about the Trump lawsuits right? You guys realize how all of this breaks down public trust in even the very belief in rule of law in this country right? I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now. They are retroactively justifying ALL of the Whataboutisms that Republicans have been running with over the last 8 years. We just had a referendum on rule of law, decorum, norms, and sanity and all of those things lost. The electorate doesn't care. I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now either. They lost the election hugely and are still peddling the same nonsense that if Democrats just keep on maintaining norms, they can really stick it to those Republicans. In fact they need to maintain decorum even harder! That'll show 'em. I see so little engagement about whether the pardon is actually morally the right thing to do, and tons of Democrats willing to jump down Biden's throat about the optics of it. Certain norms are worth preserving regardless. Additionally if you say something like, I don’t know ‘I’m not going to pardon Hunter Biden’ and you go to do so, well it sends a certain message. Democrat voters also seem to care more about such things, they’re not Trump cultists and this kind of move just further disenfranchises a certain demographic who actually value principles Exactly. Just keep alienating the liberal base Democrats, because it's working SO well for you in the general elections. The next time the Democrats want to pretend like they occupy some kind of moral high ground and it doesn't move the electorate even the tiniest bit and they can't figure out why, shit like this is why. No one believes the Democrats are any better than the Republicans are, they're just better at virtue signaling that they care about stuff like this when they actually don't
The false equivalence here is staggering. As if this one action somehow balances all of the norms, decorum, and rule of law violations that Republicans have done under Trump. And even that is only if you view this pardon as somehow a violation of any of those which I still do not.
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Aside from pardons obviously being banana republic stuff, acting like this pardon being even in the same ballpark as the Trump ones cant be anything but bad faith.
Btw... How do americans (and sadly everyone else in the western world) plan to teach their children in the future that lying is wrong and that you should try to be a decent person, that you shouldnt break the law and so on? Because with Trumps second election its crystal clear that none of that stuff matters and you can and should do whatever the fuck you want as long as you somehow manage to avoid consequences.
I guess its the logical consequence of hustle culture but im still staggered that conservatives are so absolutely void of any ethic or moral considerations.
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Northern Ireland23136 Posts
On December 03 2024 15:14 Azuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 13:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 03 2024 12:29 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 12:06 Azuzu wrote:On December 03 2024 11:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2024 23:23 Gahlo wrote:
The case against Hunter is entirely bunk. The only thing that resulted of it is MTG getting wank material. You guys realize the Republicans say the EXACT same thing about the Trump lawsuits right? You guys realize how all of this breaks down public trust in even the very belief in rule of law in this country right? I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now. They are retroactively justifying ALL of the Whataboutisms that Republicans have been running with over the last 8 years. We just had a referendum on rule of law, decorum, norms, and sanity and all of those things lost. The electorate doesn't care. I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now either. They lost the election hugely and are still peddling the same nonsense that if Democrats just keep on maintaining norms, they can really stick it to those Republicans. In fact they need to maintain decorum even harder! That'll show 'em. I see so little engagement about whether the pardon is actually morally the right thing to do, and tons of Democrats willing to jump down Biden's throat about the optics of it. Certain norms are worth preserving regardless. Additionally if you say something like, I don’t know ‘I’m not going to pardon Hunter Biden’ and you go to do so, well it sends a certain message. Democrat voters also seem to care more about such things, they’re not Trump cultists and this kind of move just further disenfranchises a certain demographic who actually value principles Exactly. Just keep alienating the liberal base Democrats, because it's working SO well for you in the general elections. The next time the Democrats want to pretend like they occupy some kind of moral high ground and it doesn't move the electorate even the tiniest bit and they can't figure out why, shit like this is why. No one believes the Democrats are any better than the Republicans are, they're just better at virtue signaling that they care about stuff like this when they actually don't The false equivalence here is staggering. As if this one action somehow balances all of the norms, decorum, and rule of law violations that Republicans have done under Trump. And even that is only if you view this pardon as somehow a violation of any of those which I still do not.
Nobody is claiming that though.
Some folks have a higher bar than doing whatever the GOP are doing, some folks also have a bar set as ‘not doing the exact thing you said you would not do and just did’
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Biden is preserving the norms. He's preserving it by pardoning Hunter Biden. That's the norm. Am I in the Twilight zone or are people pretending that the rich and powerful getting away with things is something that Trump invented in the last few years? It's been that way for a long time. The Dems tried to convince everyone that the hush money trial was not an instance of political targeting and simply an instance of enforcing the ideal that "nobody is above the law." But nobody bought the charade. The idea that Dems should carry on with the charade anyway is nonsensical. If you oppose Joe Biden pardoning his son you should do it on the grounds that someone shouldn't get off because their father is President. You shouldn't oppose it for the idea that "Dems can't claim the high ground anymore" because nobody ever ceded them the high ground in the first place.
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On December 03 2024 15:31 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 15:14 Azuzu wrote:On December 03 2024 13:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 03 2024 12:29 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 12:06 Azuzu wrote:On December 03 2024 11:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2024 23:23 Gahlo wrote:
The case against Hunter is entirely bunk. The only thing that resulted of it is MTG getting wank material. You guys realize the Republicans say the EXACT same thing about the Trump lawsuits right? You guys realize how all of this breaks down public trust in even the very belief in rule of law in this country right? I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now. They are retroactively justifying ALL of the Whataboutisms that Republicans have been running with over the last 8 years. We just had a referendum on rule of law, decorum, norms, and sanity and all of those things lost. The electorate doesn't care. I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now either. They lost the election hugely and are still peddling the same nonsense that if Democrats just keep on maintaining norms, they can really stick it to those Republicans. In fact they need to maintain decorum even harder! That'll show 'em. I see so little engagement about whether the pardon is actually morally the right thing to do, and tons of Democrats willing to jump down Biden's throat about the optics of it. Certain norms are worth preserving regardless. Additionally if you say something like, I don’t know ‘I’m not going to pardon Hunter Biden’ and you go to do so, well it sends a certain message. Democrat voters also seem to care more about such things, they’re not Trump cultists and this kind of move just further disenfranchises a certain demographic who actually value principles Exactly. Just keep alienating the liberal base Democrats, because it's working SO well for you in the general elections. The next time the Democrats want to pretend like they occupy some kind of moral high ground and it doesn't move the electorate even the tiniest bit and they can't figure out why, shit like this is why. No one believes the Democrats are any better than the Republicans are, they're just better at virtue signaling that they care about stuff like this when they actually don't The false equivalence here is staggering. As if this one action somehow balances all of the norms, decorum, and rule of law violations that Republicans have done under Trump. And even that is only if you view this pardon as somehow a violation of any of those which I still do not. Nobody is claiming that though. Some folks have a higher bar than doing whatever the GOP are doing, some folks also have a bar set as ‘not doing the exact thing you said you would not do and just did’
I certainly read Vindicare's post as claiming that. Unless you want to say Vindicare is not included in the "No one believes" and perhaps he's simply speaking for other people that are not himself.
Anyway, busting people for "flip flops" is a hilarious relic of US politics. I remember that was a major diss against John Kerry. Don't change your mind based on anything lest you are a flip flopper!
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On December 03 2024 15:14 Azuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 13:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 03 2024 12:29 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 12:06 Azuzu wrote:On December 03 2024 11:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2024 23:23 Gahlo wrote:
The case against Hunter is entirely bunk. The only thing that resulted of it is MTG getting wank material. You guys realize the Republicans say the EXACT same thing about the Trump lawsuits right? You guys realize how all of this breaks down public trust in even the very belief in rule of law in this country right? I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now. They are retroactively justifying ALL of the Whataboutisms that Republicans have been running with over the last 8 years. We just had a referendum on rule of law, decorum, norms, and sanity and all of those things lost. The electorate doesn't care. I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now either. They lost the election hugely and are still peddling the same nonsense that if Democrats just keep on maintaining norms, they can really stick it to those Republicans. In fact they need to maintain decorum even harder! That'll show 'em. I see so little engagement about whether the pardon is actually morally the right thing to do, and tons of Democrats willing to jump down Biden's throat about the optics of it. Certain norms are worth preserving regardless. Additionally if you say something like, I don’t know ‘I’m not going to pardon Hunter Biden’ and you go to do so, well it sends a certain message. Democrat voters also seem to care more about such things, they’re not Trump cultists and this kind of move just further disenfranchises a certain demographic who actually value principles Exactly. Just keep alienating the liberal base Democrats, because it's working SO well for you in the general elections. The next time the Democrats want to pretend like they occupy some kind of moral high ground and it doesn't move the electorate even the tiniest bit and they can't figure out why, shit like this is why. No one believes the Democrats are any better than the Republicans are, they're just better at virtue signaling that they care about stuff like this when they actually don't The false equivalence here is staggering. As if this one action somehow balances all of the norms, decorum, and rule of law violations that Republicans have done under Trump. And even that is only if you view this pardon as somehow a violation of any of those which I still do not.
"Sure, we suck, but the other side is worse" convinced no one this election and is going to convince noone going forward. You want to say the rule of law is important, then you have to act like you believe it. If you want to take advantage of the shitty stuff your rickety constitution allows? Then stop with the hypocrisy.
I think everyone knows pardoning Hunter Biden was morally wrong here. They are discussing the optics because they already decided the moral argument. In fact, Joe Biden already seems to have ceded the morality himself.
There might be interesting questions here. Is the prosecution being unduly harsh because dropping the case might've been seen as partisan? Is the judge being unduly harsh because they might be secretly MAGA? While the case doesn't seem like it, it's possible. And it's just another sample of how outdated the constitution is, with a system designed for a very different system to today's USA. Amendments can and have happened but none that touch the fundamental structure, allowing political appointment of judges, using a non-representative electoral college and house of representatives, presidential pardons, etc. etc. etc.
And sure, the Democrats can claim they are just doing what "the other side" does too, but the fact that there is an "other side" in politics who half the country believes are not intending to lead the country as best they can, just with a different idea on how to approach issues, but rather that that other side is out to literally destroy and undermine everything they hold dear about the country is itself a very serious problem. And just because you're a Democrat and think "the other side" are fascists, doesn't mean it isn't a problem. The fascists were voted into power in a political landslide. In large part because of political ineptitude like this pardon paved the way for them to point at kernels of truth in their web of lies.
GH has been hammering on about the point that one side are fascists and the other side are fascist enablers. He isn't wrong.
And if the idea is that the Democrats are now going to embrace that and abuse the system they apparently no longer believe in, then at least abuse it for good! Sure, pardon Hunter, but also pardon every single person on death row. Appoint 10 new judges to the Supreme Court. And do about a million other things that the constitution allows but using those permissions break the system. If your belief in the system has broken to where nepotism is justified by "well, the constitution says it's ok", why are you *only* using it for nepotism?! You need to go full GH on it, if your belief in the system has broken down.
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On December 03 2024 11:38 Vindicare605 wrote:
You guys realize the Republicans say the EXACT same thing about the Trump lawsuits right?
Yep, America is healing because now Biden has introduced the other half of the country to the mental pathway of defending putting somebody rich and powerful - or related to rich an powerful above "the law", because "the law" isn't dealt equaly, and sometimes it's politicly motivated.
Democrat strategy and media help, painting Trump as criminal, and basicly edging the nation on getting him to jail, while fully knowing that he'd NEVER will see jail was also pretty shitty.
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Russian Federation137 Posts
I am from Russia, I unlocked 1 memory...
Being a little kid, I knew relatives and friends who went to the US, to Europe, their parents found an opportunity to work and live and it was considered as an astounding success for them and their relatives. USA and Europe were countries with "the rule of law", merit system, no corruption, etc., while during the 90's Russia was in shambles - Gorbachev was a traitor, Eltsin was an alcoholic.
But what happened to you? Biden's paroling his son, flat Earth believers, you can't define what a woman is, and that's a tip of the iceberg really. What happened? How did that happen?
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On December 03 2024 16:12 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 15:14 Azuzu wrote:On December 03 2024 13:09 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 03 2024 12:29 WombaT wrote:On December 03 2024 12:06 Azuzu wrote:On December 03 2024 11:38 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 02 2024 23:23 Gahlo wrote:
The case against Hunter is entirely bunk. The only thing that resulted of it is MTG getting wank material. You guys realize the Republicans say the EXACT same thing about the Trump lawsuits right? You guys realize how all of this breaks down public trust in even the very belief in rule of law in this country right? I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now. They are retroactively justifying ALL of the Whataboutisms that Republicans have been running with over the last 8 years. We just had a referendum on rule of law, decorum, norms, and sanity and all of those things lost. The electorate doesn't care. I can't believe the level of cognitive dissonance Democrats are having on this topic right now either. They lost the election hugely and are still peddling the same nonsense that if Democrats just keep on maintaining norms, they can really stick it to those Republicans. In fact they need to maintain decorum even harder! That'll show 'em. I see so little engagement about whether the pardon is actually morally the right thing to do, and tons of Democrats willing to jump down Biden's throat about the optics of it. Certain norms are worth preserving regardless. Additionally if you say something like, I don’t know ‘I’m not going to pardon Hunter Biden’ and you go to do so, well it sends a certain message. Democrat voters also seem to care more about such things, they’re not Trump cultists and this kind of move just further disenfranchises a certain demographic who actually value principles Exactly. Just keep alienating the liberal base Democrats, because it's working SO well for you in the general elections. The next time the Democrats want to pretend like they occupy some kind of moral high ground and it doesn't move the electorate even the tiniest bit and they can't figure out why, shit like this is why. No one believes the Democrats are any better than the Republicans are, they're just better at virtue signaling that they care about stuff like this when they actually don't The false equivalence here is staggering. As if this one action somehow balances all of the norms, decorum, and rule of law violations that Republicans have done under Trump. And even that is only if you view this pardon as somehow a violation of any of those which I still do not. "Sure, we suck, but the other side is worse" convinced no one this election and is going to convince noone going forward. You want to say the rule of law is important, then you have to act like you believe it. If you want to take advantage of the shitty stuff your rickety constitution allows? Then stop with the hypocrisy. I think everyone knows pardoning Hunter Biden was morally wrong here. They are discussing the optics because they already decided the moral argument. In fact, Joe Biden already seems to have ceded the morality himself. There might be interesting questions here. Is the prosecution being unduly harsh because dropping the case might've been seen as partisan? Is the judge being unduly harsh because they might be secretly MAGA? While the case doesn't seem like it, it's possible. And it's just another sample of how outdated the constitution is, with a system designed for a very different system to today's USA. Amendments can and have happened but none that touch the fundamental structure, allowing political appointment of judges, using a non-representative electoral college and house of representatives, presidential pardons, etc. etc. etc.
I did not say or imply "we suck but the other side is worse". I'm not sure where you got that. My position is actually:
"Democrats are pretty fucking good (though not perfect) and if the electorate cared at all about rule of law, norms, or decorum, Kamala would be president elect."
And:
"The Hunter pardon is something I believe is morally correct given the surrounding context of a multi-year Republican political engine blitzkrieg for political gain that has shown no signs of slowing down against Hunter Biden. This persecution is purely because of his relationship with Joe Biden".
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On December 03 2024 16:52 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
I am from Russia, I unlocked 1 memory...
Being a little kid, I knew relatives and friends who went to the US, to Europe, their parents found an opportunity to work and live and it was considered as an astounding success for them and their relatives. USA and Europe were countries with "the rule of law", merit system, no corruption, etc., while during the 90's Russia was in shambles - Gorbachev was a traitor, Eltsin was an alcoholic.
But what happened to you? Biden's paroling his son, flat Earth believers, you can't define what a woman is, and that's a tip of the iceberg really. What happened? How did that happen?
It was always like this, you were just fed propaganda so we could win the cold war. People said jfk would be controlled by the pope so you couldn't trust him. We wanted to rape Russia of all its intellectual talent and we did what we had to to win the war.
People have always wanted to pretend that the world around them was better than it was. This last election showed no one gives a shit about norms laws or justice. Why let you child be attacked for committing the sin of being your son?
This is exactly why I always rail on how Lincoln was a shitty president. If you're going to be a tyrant and send marines to arrest rebels don't be a half measures bitch about it. Andrew Jackson and trump both showed you no one gives a shit.
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Russian Federation137 Posts
It was always like this, you were just fed propaganda so we could win the cold war.
Why are you still continuing this war if you won it in 1991? You don't care about Ukraine, you don't care about Georgia, about Moldova, do you?
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The US is basically just lending/selling old, no longer state of the art, weapons to Ukraine. It's even prohibiting Ukraine to use these weapons to their full potential.
Why is Russia still continuing this war? It has proven way more costly than it should and on top of it is an absolute embarassment for it's military and it's leadership.
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On December 03 2024 17:10 EEk1TwEEk wrote:Show nested quote +It was always like this, you were just fed propaganda so we could win the cold war. Why are you still continuing this war if you won it in 1991? You don't care about Ukraine, you don't care about Georgia, about Moldova, do you?
Of course, how could we expect a Russian to do anything but parrot Kremlin talking points. It is fucking exhausting with you guys. You turn up with new accounts, spout Kremlin propaganda, then eventually get banned. Just a constant flood.
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Russian Federation137 Posts
On December 03 2024 17:27 Velr wrote:
The US is basically just lending/selling old, no longer state of the art, weapons to Ukraine. It's even prohibiting Ukraine to use these weapons to their full potential.
Why is Russia still continuing this war? It has proven way more costly than it should and on top of it is an absolute embarassment for it's military and it's leadership.
Because we don't want our people to be bombed, which happened from 2014 to 2022. We don't want american bases in Ukraine with missiles pointed at our cities, we don't want parades of the nazis in Ukraine.
And what embarassement for leadership and military are you talking about? We are fighting against Nato, still winning, taking more territories from the nazi regime.
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On December 03 2024 17:42 EEk1TwEEk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 17:27 Velr wrote:
The US is basically just lending/selling old, no longer state of the art, weapons to Ukraine. It's even prohibiting Ukraine to use these weapons to their full potential.
Why is Russia still continuing this war? It has proven way more costly than it should and on top of it is an absolute embarassment for it's military and it's leadership. Because we don't want our people to be bombed, which happened from 2014 to 2022. We don't want american bases in Ukraine with missiles pointed at our cities, we don't want parades of the nazis in Ukraine. And what embarassement for leadership and military are you talking about? We are fighting against Nato, still winning, taking more territories from the nazi regime.
Your sources are really bad. You are a victim and/or a perpetrator of massive propaganda efforts.
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Lol.
You attacked Ukraine in 2014.
You are not fighting against Nato.
There are and were no foreign military bases in Ukraine. Ukraine wasn't considered for Nato membership exactly to not piss off Russia.
As for embarassment:
The 3 day special operation is now in year 3 with no end in sight.
Russia fails to achieve full airspace control against a country with barely an airforce.
Russia lost its black sea fleet against a country whiteout a Navy.
Russia needs North Korean soldiers because it has troubles supporting its front.
Ukraine holds Russian territory, despite fighting with one hand tied behind it's back for the longest time.
You deserve every bomb that knocks on your roofs.
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Russian Federation137 Posts
On December 03 2024 17:51 Velr wrote:
Lol.
You attacked Ukraine in 2014.
You are not fighting against Nato.
There are and were no foreign military bases in Ukraine. Ukraine wasn't considered for Nato membership exactly to not piss off Russia.
As for embarassment:
The 3 day special operation is now in year 3 with no end in sight.
Russia fails to achieve full airspace control against a country with barely an airforce.
Russia lost its black sea fleet against a country whiteout a Navy.
Russia needs North Korean soldiers because it has troubles supporting its front.
Ukraine holds Russian territory, despite fighting with one hand tied behind it's back for the longest time.
You deserve every bomb that knocks on your roofs.
Oh here we go again
If we wanted to destroy Ukraine in 1 day, we would do that
Nvm, dude, ukraine is winning
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Russian Federation137 Posts
On December 03 2024 17:47 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 17:42 EEk1TwEEk wrote:On December 03 2024 17:27 Velr wrote:
The US is basically just lending/selling old, no longer state of the art, weapons to Ukraine. It's even prohibiting Ukraine to use these weapons to their full potential.
Why is Russia still continuing this war? It has proven way more costly than it should and on top of it is an absolute embarassment for it's military and it's leadership. Because we don't want our people to be bombed, which happened from 2014 to 2022. We don't want american bases in Ukraine with missiles pointed at our cities, we don't want parades of the nazis in Ukraine. And what embarassement for leadership and military are you talking about? We are fighting against Nato, still winning, taking more territories from the nazi regime. Your sources are really bad. You are a victim and/or a perpetrator of massive propaganda efforts.
Any real arguments from you?
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On December 03 2024 17:56 EEk1TwEEk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2024 17:51 Velr wrote:
Lol.
You attacked Ukraine in 2014.
You are not fighting against Nato.
There are and were no foreign military bases in Ukraine. Ukraine wasn't considered for Nato membership exactly to not piss off Russia.
As for embarassment:
The 3 day special operation is now in year 3 with no end in sight.
Russia fails to achieve full airspace control against a country with barely an airforce.
Russia lost its black sea fleet against a country whiteout a Navy.
Russia needs North Korean soldiers because it has troubles supporting its front.
Ukraine holds Russian territory, despite fighting with one hand tied behind it's back for the longest time.
You deserve every bomb that knocks on your roofs. Oh here we go again If we wanted to destroy Ukraine in 1 day, we would do that Nvm, dude, ukraine is winning
"Joke is on you, my incompetence is just an act!"
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EPT
