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The more I think about it the more I realise policy and messaging were the main reasons why Harris lost so badly. She’s a bad candidate but by many objective measures Trump is worse so it shouldn’t be hard to beat him.
But Dems got the policy and messaging totally off imo, they should have focused more on 3 main things which are crime, illegal immigration and the economy, not just during the election cycle but over the past 4 years. Instead they continuously pandered towards “progressive” policies which is nothing wrong but I think it removed alot of focus they should have had on the more pressing issues.
Also they did too much “orange man bad” instead of focusing on policy which in this current climate you can see why it turned off some voters. You can sit here talking about racism and sexism etc but it’s extremely telling that Trump actually gained votes with minorities and I think Harris didn’t get as many votes from women compared to Biden.
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United States24813 Posts
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been.
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On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been.
Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California.
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She kinda did both, Id say she did more moderate Republican pandering towards the back half though and it overshadowed the hell out of the bits of progressive policy like fighting price gouging
On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California.
This is just delusional lol
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On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been.
That’s because they actually tried to do both and people rightly saw through it
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On November 07 2024 09:57 Zambrah wrote:She kinda did both, Id say she did more moderate Republican pandering towards the back half though and it overshadowed the hell out of the bits of progressive policy like fighting price gouging Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California. This is just delusional lol
I think if she set a clear tone at the start of her campaign she will come down hard on illegal immigration and crime and have a clearer plan on how to fix inflation this election would have looked alot more different. Instead it was 50% orange man bad and 50% unclear messaging.
Also I don’t think that statement is delusional, literally NY and Illinois are less blue than Texas and Florida which should tell you alot.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been.
Both can be true
No moral judgments, I think they did things that were morally correct.
But you can’t court even many moderate republicans while having very pro trans stances, and indeed policies. To take one example
You can’t court the economically inclined left without some big statement lefty economic policies.
There’s no innate issue with that unless your strategy is we might grab some moderate Republicans and the lefties will vote for us anyways because lesser evils
It demonstrably didn’t work
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On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California.
Yeah it’s amazing how easily they could have won this election if they were the people that Kamala tried to pretend they were at the DNC or in the debate. You can’t spend 4 years letting 10 million people through the border, believing burning down police stations is a legitimate form of protest, believing that defunding the police will make us safer, believing that America is a terrible racist country, believing that it’s not safe for children to attend school, and then just declare that you’re the secure-the-border, fracking-loving, god-bless-the-USA, red-blooded gun-toting patriot.
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On November 07 2024 10:06 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 09:57 Zambrah wrote:She kinda did both, Id say she did more moderate Republican pandering towards the back half though and it overshadowed the hell out of the bits of progressive policy like fighting price gouging On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California. This is just delusional lol I think if she set a clear tone at the start of her campaign she will come down hard on illegal immigration and crime and have a clearer plan on how to fix inflation this election would have looked alot more different. Instead it was 50% orange man bad and 50% unclear messaging. Also I don’t think that statement is delusional, literally NY and Illinois are less blue than Texas and Florida which should tell you alot.
Republicans who dont like illegal immigration would still just vote for Trump, same for crime, and no clear plan would be satisfying to an American publican who doesn't read policy details and is barely literate in many cases.
Pandering to Republicans is stupid because Republicans who want Republican things will simply vote for Republicans.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 07 2024 09:57 Zambrah wrote:She kinda did both, Id say she did more moderate Republican pandering towards the back half though and it overshadowed the hell out of the bits of progressive policy like fighting price gouging Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California. This is just delusional lol
Its not delusional at all, Trump was a very centrist candidate
The Dems haven’t lost this battle 2X in recent years, and probably would have lost a third if Trump wasn’t hamstrung with Covid
For all I think ‘hey gas prices were cheaper under Trump ergo he’s good on the economy’ is fucking stupid and boosts him, I still think it’s outweighed by Trump being the Covid President
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 07 2024 10:09 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 10:06 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:57 Zambrah wrote:She kinda did both, Id say she did more moderate Republican pandering towards the back half though and it overshadowed the hell out of the bits of progressive policy like fighting price gouging On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California. This is just delusional lol I think if she set a clear tone at the start of her campaign she will come down hard on illegal immigration and crime and have a clearer plan on how to fix inflation this election would have looked alot more different. Instead it was 50% orange man bad and 50% unclear messaging. Also I don’t think that statement is delusional, literally NY and Illinois are less blue than Texas and Florida which should tell you alot. Republicans who dont like illegal immigration would still just vote for Trump, same for crime, and no clear plan would be satisfying to an American publican who doesn't read policy details and is barely literate in many cases. Pandering to Republicans is stupid because Republicans who want Republican things will simply vote for Republicans.
Probably easier with modern AI tools but you could send someone footage of Trump in some kind of orange/whatever other colour meshing of sexual conquest with someone’s wife and they’d still vote for him
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On November 07 2024 10:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 09:57 Zambrah wrote:She kinda did both, Id say she did more moderate Republican pandering towards the back half though and it overshadowed the hell out of the bits of progressive policy like fighting price gouging On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California. This is just delusional lol Its not delusional at all, Trump was a very centrist candidate The Dems haven’t lost this battle 2X in recent years, and probably would have lost a third if Trump wasn’t hamstrung with Covid For all I think ‘hey gas prices were cheaper under Trump ergo he’s good on the economy’ is fucking stupid and boosts him, I still think it’s outweighed by Trump being the Covid President
Would you mind elaborating on your view that Trump is a "very centrist candidate"?
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Hey look, some Progressive Policies won out in MISSOURI of all hellholes,
https://x.com/MorePerfectUS/status/1854026971384033458
BREAKING: Missourians have voted to raise the statewide minimum wage to $15 by 2026 and guarantee paid sick days to workers.
Yeah lets commit hard to that centrism lmao, the people hate higher wages and paid sick days
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Democrats/libs are going to have to reconcile this contradiction between Trump being a fascist and Harris insisting she will peacefully hand power to a fascist while "fighting for a better future".
They don't have long and the clock is ticking.
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I think this is some ways a double edged sword for the Republicans. They have spent a long time blaming the Dems and the "they" for all the problems. Now (especially if they win the house) they are going to have no excuses, as the Dems won't stop them and they have all the power to deal with the "they". These concepts of plans better become executable in a hurry! The double talk will also be hard to keep up, because when in power you can't say multiple different things and people take what they like. They will actually have to do things and those things are unlikely to be popular with large percentages of their current base. Like blue collar rednecks and hard core Christians might both hate" Woke Left Commmies", but outside of that they really do not have a lot in common.
Edit: They are the party of democracy, and believe in it. They will fight within the rules, that is not a bad thing. I'm with uldridge, don't race to the bottom.
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On November 07 2024 10:09 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 10:06 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:57 Zambrah wrote:She kinda did both, Id say she did more moderate Republican pandering towards the back half though and it overshadowed the hell out of the bits of progressive policy like fighting price gouging On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California. This is just delusional lol I think if she set a clear tone at the start of her campaign she will come down hard on illegal immigration and crime and have a clearer plan on how to fix inflation this election would have looked alot more different. Instead it was 50% orange man bad and 50% unclear messaging. Also I don’t think that statement is delusional, literally NY and Illinois are less blue than Texas and Florida which should tell you alot. Republicans who dont like illegal immigration would still just vote for Trump, same for crime, and no clear plan would be satisfying to an American publican who doesn't read policy details and is barely literate in many cases. Pandering to Republicans is stupid because Republicans who want Republican things will simply vote for Republicans.
Yes hardcore Republicans would vote R no matter who but I’m talking about appealing to moderate/independent voters. It was clear majority of these voters broke for Trump.
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On November 07 2024 10:20 Billyboy wrote:
I think this is some ways a double edged sword for the Republicans. They have spent a long time blaming the Dems and the "they" for all the problems. Now (especially if they win the house) they are going to have no excuses, as the Dems won't stop them and they have all the power to deal with the "they". These concepts of plans better become executable in a hurry! The double talk will also be hard to keep up, because when in power you can't say multiple different things and people take what they like. They will actually have to do things and those things are unlikely to be popular with large percentages of their current base. Like blue collar rednecks and hard core Christians might both hate" Woke Left Commmies", but outside of that they really do not have a lot in common.
Edit: They are the party of democracy, and believe in it. They will fight within the rules, that is not a bad thing. I'm with uldridge, don't race to the bottom.
I always flip back and forth on this kind of thing, because I don't want Democrats to stoop down to the level of Republicans, but keeping the moral high ground while losing the election is just a stupid strategy, because it involves losing the election.
I understand the perspective of not wanting a race to the bottom, but perhaps Democrats not properly participating just lets Republicans drag the country down to the bottom anyway.
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On November 07 2024 10:23 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 10:09 Zambrah wrote:On November 07 2024 10:06 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:57 Zambrah wrote:She kinda did both, Id say she did more moderate Republican pandering towards the back half though and it overshadowed the hell out of the bits of progressive policy like fighting price gouging On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California. This is just delusional lol I think if she set a clear tone at the start of her campaign she will come down hard on illegal immigration and crime and have a clearer plan on how to fix inflation this election would have looked alot more different. Instead it was 50% orange man bad and 50% unclear messaging. Also I don’t think that statement is delusional, literally NY and Illinois are less blue than Texas and Florida which should tell you alot. Republicans who dont like illegal immigration would still just vote for Trump, same for crime, and no clear plan would be satisfying to an American publican who doesn't read policy details and is barely literate in many cases. Pandering to Republicans is stupid because Republicans who want Republican things will simply vote for Republicans. Yes hardcore Republicans would vote R no matter who but I’m talking about appealing to moderate/independent voters. It was clear majority of these voters broke for Trump.
Independents and swing voters are a stupid demographic to chase there are extremely few of them, Democrats win on turnout not swing voters.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 07 2024 10:07 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 09:57 Dante08 wrote:On November 07 2024 09:54 micronesia wrote:
I think it's kind of ironic that the dems of the past four years are simultaneously getting hit with accusations of foolishly courting the moderate republicans near the middle at the expense of courting progressives AND pandering towards progressive policies/messages when they shouldn't have been. Dems need to get back to the centre, it’s pretty clear that’s what people want and how you win elections. Leave the progressive woke stuff to California. Yeah it’s amazing how easily they could have won this election if they were the people that Kamala tried to pretend they were at the DNC or in the debate. You can’t spend 4 years letting 10 million people through the border, believing burning down police stations is a legitimate form of protest, believing that defunding the police will make us safer, believing that America is a terrible racist country, believing that it’s not safe for children to attend school, and then just declare that you’re the secure-the-border, fracking-loving, god-bless-the-USA, red-blooded gun-toting patriot.
It’s beyond laughable that the issue Dems have is not being centrist enough.
The suffer by association from people who aren’t even Democrats, or like them. But who are on the wider left
The actual left are fucking scathing of the Democrats
Some random hateful Redditor who’s of the left is parsed as representative of the Democrats.
Some Neo-Nazi who’s wearing a MAGA hat isn’t. Hey not with me bro
If a Star Wars show is bad, it’s because of DEI wokeness and the Dems are to blame ultimately
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EPT
