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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 455

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-12 03:51:59
July 12 2018 03:50 GMT
#9081
While I personally think that Trump really lacks in a lot of regards and more of his moves than not are pretty bad and not well thought out at all, I'm sure there are some moves here or there that may be a bit calculated though. That's not to say that he's some genius or smart etc... he just seems to do the whole "give the people, aka his supporters what they want".

It's quite likely (not 100% confirmed obviously) that he knew the wall will fail (for ex) and mexico will not pay for it, yet he tried to do the wall then failed and now gets the US (afaik) to pay for it yet his own base loves it. I recall one of them was asked about it and the response was something like "at least he tried".

I have no clue if he'll get another 4 years or not, but my gut feeling tells me that he will be president for the full 8 years. Guess we'll see in due time. On the other side, the US destroying foreign relationships means that they have their hands full and will intervene a bit less in the affairs of other countries.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
July 12 2018 03:56 GMT
#9082
He is an idiot but an idiot who realized as he so eloquently put it "I could shoot someone on 5th avenue and people would still vote for me".
Never Knows Best.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
July 12 2018 04:03 GMT
#9083
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
July 12 2018 04:45 GMT
#9084
On July 12 2018 13:03 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2018 11:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Kickboxer does help show why my political position is important. If Occasio-Cortez is "a proper communist" what does that make us over here on her left?

Pretty sure based on the last few days you are far left of occasio-Cortez, maybe left of communism.


If she's a proper communist I have to be to the left of Communism right?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2603 Posts
July 12 2018 06:17 GMT
#9085
On July 12 2018 13:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2018 13:03 JimmiC wrote:
On July 12 2018 11:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Kickboxer does help show why my political position is important. If Occasio-Cortez is "a proper communist" what does that make us over here on her left?

Pretty sure based on the last few days you are far left of occasio-Cortez, maybe left of communism.


If she's a proper communist I have to be to the left of Communism right?


not like there's anything wrong with being left of communism. after all, what can we do other than disagree completely?
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2603 Posts
July 12 2018 06:27 GMT
#9086
On July 12 2018 10:53 Plansix wrote:
The fact that people continue to have delusions that Trump is anything more than a loud mouth billionaires with enough charisma to beat an equally unappealing candidate never ceases to impress.

And I aagree with Wom that Clinton could literally die and people would still say she was going to run for office/


Let's change the topic

Is there a solution for those displaced by global trade, e.g. Rust Belt workers, that would ensure that the gains of global trade are distributed fairly to them, and that the Democrat Party could embrace?
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-12 06:59:21
July 12 2018 06:54 GMT
#9087
On July 12 2018 11:41 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2018 01:29 iamthedave wrote:
On July 12 2018 00:35 KwarK wrote:
On July 11 2018 23:53 xDaunt wrote:
On July 11 2018 17:20 Leporello wrote:

Another year, another chance for Trump to show us how wrong we are, and that he is in fact a defender of democracy and not a Putin-plant.

Oh, well, I guess there's next year? If NATO still exists by then?

I bet Germany is really happy it sent all those soldiers to Afghanistan. When every other country was done, Germany was still there. My brother served other there with Germans. He never saw the French or English. Just the Germans.

The most casualties Germany has faced since WW2 was this, Afghanistan, entirely for our sake and against the political-will of the German people. And this is the thanks we give them... Republicans are traitors to my country and to democracy, and I will treat them as such until they completely apologize for this shit. No civil war. I just pretend you're all dead already.

edit:

I mean, that sums it up, but the guy makes the tiresome mistake of acting like this is all just dumbfuckery, and not malicious intent. At this point, it is clearly the latter.
Trump doesn't need to "read history" (his voters certainly fucking do) he needs to be bayoneted by a ghost of a WW2 soldier.

If the Europeans really cared about NATO, they'd meet their defense funding obligations. Instead, they're freeloading on America's defense spending. Now, I'm just going to go out on a limb here and presume that you're someone who doesn't like the US spending as much as it does on defense. Surely you're not on board with the idea that the US should be subsidizing the national defense of foreign, wealthy countries.

American global spending is an irrelevant and distractory argument when looking at NATO specific defence obligations. If the UK spent 2% due to commitments in the Falklands you’d not view that as a NATO contribution.


Significantly more importantly, no sane person should want any particular European power from spending too much on defense.

For fuck's sake, I know America came in at the end, but both World Wars started in Europe. The EU, NATO, the reduced defense spending, it's all about preventing the slow but inevitable rise of tensions in Europe that eventually boiled over into those two events from happening again.

But hey, fuck it. Let's have Germany 'pull its weight' and start super spending on defense and military again. I'M SURE NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG.

It amazes me how much people have forgotten about events that are only just outside living memory.

While the EU was explicitly designed to solve the problem of Germany in Europe I think we're somewhat past that. The age of massed battalions swarming through Belgium ended with the emergence of the nuclear age. Otherwise we'd have seen India and Pakistan reenact the western front a dozen times over by now.

I totally agree that Trump has no idea why the US is in Europe (or Japan) or why some people (like S Korea) might get a little uneasy about Japan pulling its weight militarily, but I don't agree that all the postwar institutions are playing the same roles that they were designed for.

I do think that's about the one good thing comming out of Trump though. It's important to have these kind of talks to come to realize what it is you want and what it is the guy on the other side of the table wants.

If one party thinks they're offering a bodyguard service and therefore thinks they should be getting paid, while the other party thinks they're the ones who should be getting paid because they are renting out half of their apartment it's easy to understand why those 2 parties can't agree on anything about the matter.
And it isn't just Trump who misunderstands that. See xDaunt's reply from yesterday.

So imo that's a good thing about Trump. Otherwise we keep talking past each other.
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
July 12 2018 08:23 GMT
#9088
On July 12 2018 10:45 Kickboxer wrote:
Most of the idiotic things he's said or done were on purpose. If you understand linguistics, the meme age and the nature of US politics it's not hard to connect the dots. When 100 million people are raging over a tweet - while pretending to live in a parallel reality in 1930 Germany - the proof is in the pudding.

Hillary is certainly insane enough to run again lol. She probably has like 400 mill left in the bank from her charity's last "fundraising". What a majestic shitshow that will be, too. Running against an incumbent Trump while you've already been dumpstered by "hopeless hitler" Trump takes a thoroughly mentally ill person.


How much more mentally ill do you need to be to refer to a skin of the teeth victory (where you lost the popular vote by... three million, was it?) 'being dumpstered'?

Here's a question: Did Trump plan to take nearly a year to pass any significant legislation? Was this part of the long term genius super strategy? Did Trump plan for his 'tariff everything' plan to backfire almost immediately by causing jobs to be lost and major manufacturers to flee the US? Did he plan for his 'tough on the border' strategy to blow up in his face so spectacularly he had to reverse course in... a week? Two weeks?

Were these all part of the plan?
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1915 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-12 09:10:48
July 12 2018 09:06 GMT
#9089
On July 12 2018 17:23 iamthedave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2018 10:45 Kickboxer wrote:
Most of the idiotic things he's said or done were on purpose. If you understand linguistics, the meme age and the nature of US politics it's not hard to connect the dots. When 100 million people are raging over a tweet - while pretending to live in a parallel reality in 1930 Germany - the proof is in the pudding.

Hillary is certainly insane enough to run again lol. She probably has like 400 mill left in the bank from her charity's last "fundraising". What a majestic shitshow that will be, too. Running against an incumbent Trump while you've already been dumpstered by "hopeless hitler" Trump takes a thoroughly mentally ill person.


How much more mentally ill do you need to be to refer to a skin of the teeth victory (where you lost the popular vote by... three million, was it?) 'being dumpstered'?

Here's a question: Did Trump plan to take nearly a year to pass any significant legislation? Was this part of the long term genius super strategy? Did Trump plan for his 'tariff everything' plan to backfire almost immediately by causing jobs to be lost and major manufacturers to flee the US? Did he plan for his 'tough on the border' strategy to blow up in his face so spectacularly he had to reverse course in... a week? Two weeks?

Were these all part of the plan?


In some ways I think it was! His approval rate is rising, and he does what he was elected to do. At some point, he can use some of those fails and say "I tried to do something about X, but was hindered by (whatever enemy)"

If he can keep the focus on "the enemy" (being the German car industry, muslims, immigrants, Chinese goods or whatever) people will still vote for him even though he does nothing to improve their situation.
Buff the siegetank
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21667 Posts
July 12 2018 09:24 GMT
#9090
On July 12 2018 15:27 gobbledydook wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2018 10:53 Plansix wrote:
The fact that people continue to have delusions that Trump is anything more than a loud mouth billionaires with enough charisma to beat an equally unappealing candidate never ceases to impress.

And I aagree with Wom that Clinton could literally die and people would still say she was going to run for office/


Let's change the topic

Is there a solution for those displaced by global trade, e.g. Rust Belt workers, that would ensure that the gains of global trade are distributed fairly to them, and that the Democrat Party could embrace?
Retrain them for other professions and attempt to encourage other businesses to move to the area?

You know, the plan the Democrats already have and have had for a while.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8073 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-12 09:55:28
July 12 2018 09:53 GMT
#9091
On July 12 2018 18:24 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2018 15:27 gobbledydook wrote:
On July 12 2018 10:53 Plansix wrote:
The fact that people continue to have delusions that Trump is anything more than a loud mouth billionaires with enough charisma to beat an equally unappealing candidate never ceases to impress.

And I aagree with Wom that Clinton could literally die and people would still say she was going to run for office/


Let's change the topic

Is there a solution for those displaced by global trade, e.g. Rust Belt workers, that would ensure that the gains of global trade are distributed fairly to them, and that the Democrat Party could embrace?
Retrain them for other professions and attempt to encourage other businesses to move to the area?

You know, the plan the Democrats already have and have had for a while.


Do you have one which, while not being as effective, sounds less like people have to change (change is scary), tickles the sentimentality in us all, and is preferably short enough to be used as an angry chant..?
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21667 Posts
July 12 2018 09:55 GMT
#9092
On July 12 2018 18:53 Excludos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2018 18:24 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 12 2018 15:27 gobbledydook wrote:
On July 12 2018 10:53 Plansix wrote:
The fact that people continue to have delusions that Trump is anything more than a loud mouth billionaires with enough charisma to beat an equally unappealing candidate never ceases to impress.

And I aagree with Wom that Clinton could literally die and people would still say she was going to run for office/


Let's change the topic

Is there a solution for those displaced by global trade, e.g. Rust Belt workers, that would ensure that the gains of global trade are distributed fairly to them, and that the Democrat Party could embrace?
Retrain them for other professions and attempt to encourage other businesses to move to the area?

You know, the plan the Democrats already have and have had for a while.


Do you have one which, while not being as effective, sounds less like people have to change (change is scary), tickles the sentimentality in us all, and is preferably short enough to be used as an angry chant..?
Sure.

"Grow up".
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1926 Posts
July 12 2018 10:11 GMT
#9093
Nice, now Trump wants us to spend 4 % of our GDP in 2019. That sounds reasonable. I think we will buy a few hundred russian ICBMs and put them on Greenland. This will definately teach all of our relevant possible enemies. Everyone is happy
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
July 12 2018 10:19 GMT
#9094
On July 12 2018 11:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
Clinton definitely wants to run again. She spent at least the last decade (personally it's been clear to me she would do anything to be president when she "stayed with" Bill) trying to be president.

The ONLY reason she won't run in 2020 is because no one will sign onto it but her most sycophantic supporters. Donors are willing to let her dictate who gets their money but they won't let her be the front person for the party again. Despite her desperate attempts to remain relevant enough to be in the running.

There's a reason she's still milking her donor networks and it's because she wants whoever the Democratic nominee is to be in her debt for netting them big campaign donations.

She represents everything wrong with the Democratic party and the comfort people have with her actions since the election are why there's no sign of them going a different. better, direction.

Smart people in the Democratic party have started to distance themselves from the Clintons and she is still massively unpopular with the public. Also, Bill Clinton is more problematic these days after #MeToo. I'm sure Hillary is sociopathic enough to consider running again, but the Democratic party is not so detached from reality that they would support her.

Honestly, I think that any attention paid to Hillary Clinton by the left is a bad habit, there are many politicians with better future prospects that should be under closer scrutiny. They should care more about what Gillibrand and Harris say about health care or criminal justice reform than relitigating the 2016 primary for the millionth time.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9646 Posts
July 12 2018 10:28 GMT
#9095
On July 12 2018 19:11 Broetchenholer wrote:
Nice, now Trump wants us to spend 4 % of our GDP in 2019. That sounds reasonable. I think we will buy a few hundred russian ICBMs and put them on Greenland. This will definately teach all of our relevant possible enemies. Everyone is happy

Trump has a vested interest in turning international relations into a military pissing contest.
EU countries are best off completely ignoring his bullshit.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
July 12 2018 10:30 GMT
#9096
In case anyone followed the J20 trials, here is what the #FreeSpeech defenders on the right had to say about the persecution of peaceful protestors by the government, in order to criminalize dissent and intimidate future protestors.

(source)
Look up the words “free speech” at the Federalist website and you’ll get 1,715 hits, including a piece celebrating the Masterpiece Cake court decision, numerous articles about college students’ hostility to free speech, and a piece declaring that “free speech is under sustained attack in our country.” The site even has a tag for articles that fall under “free expression.” But under that tag, you won’t find a single article about the J20 trials. There are only three articles that give even a passing mention to the protests (all from January and February 2017) and they portray it negatively — “disorderly and disruptive,” in one case.

The National Review, the flagship journal of conservative opinion, has literally thousands of articles on the subject (“Free Speech On Campus: Can It Be Saved?” asks one), but the only time it has mentioned the protesters was in January 2017, calling them “hoodlums” and part of “the Left’s criminal anarchist element.” It’s the same story with the Daily Caller, the Daily Signal, and Breitbart. Even the Daily Wire, set up by Ben Shapiro, one of the members of the “Intellectual Dark Web,” has only mentioned them once, in an obligatory January 2017 article warning that leftists were “plot[ting] criminal acts to disrupt Trump inaugural ball.”


I guess everyone knows that the Right's obsession with free speech is just a dogwhistle for racism, and will be dropped instantly if it's expedient, but I still find the hypocrisy a bit shocking (I know I shouldn't).

Here is some research on this:
+ Show Spoiler +

(source)
Do claims of "free speech" provide cover for prejudice? We investigate whether this defense of racist or hate speech serves as a justification for prejudice. In a series of 8 studies (N = 1,624), we found that explicit racial prejudice is a reliable predictor of the "free speech defense" of racist expression. Participants endorsed free speech values for singing racists songs or posting racist comments on social media; people high in prejudice endorsed free speech more than people low in prejudice (meta-analytic r = .43). This endorsement was not principled-high levels of prejudice did not predict endorsement of free speech values when identical speech was directed at coworkers or the police. Participants low in explicit racial prejudice actively avoided endorsing free speech values in racialized conditions compared to nonracial conditions, but participants high in racial prejudice increased their endorsement of free speech values in racialized conditions. Three experiments failed to find evidence that defense of racist speech by the highly prejudiced was based in self-relevant or self-protective motives. Two experiments found evidence that the free speech argument protected participants' own freedom to express their attitudes; the defense of other's racist speech seems motivated more by threats to autonomy than threats to self-regard. These studies serve as an elaboration of the Justification-Suppression Model (Crandall & Eshleman, 2003) of prejudice expression. The justification of racist speech by endorsing fundamental political values can serve to buffer racial and hate speech from normative disapproval.


(source)

Two researchers at the University of Kansas have conducted a study suggesting that “explicit racial prejudice is a reliable predictor of the ‘free speech defense’ of racist expression.”

The paper authored by Mark H. White, a graduate student in psychology, and Christian Crandall, professor of psychology, appears online currently in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

“When people make appeals to democratic principles — like ‘freedom of speech’ — they don’t always represent a genuine interest in that principle,” White said. “We think of principles as ideas we use to guide behavior in our everyday lives. Our data show something different — that we tend to make up our mind on something based on our attitudes — in this case, racial attitudes — and then decide that the principle is relevant or irrelevant. People do whatever best fits their pre-existing attitudes.”

“We look at people who defend another’s racist speech — for example, defending someone who got fired for going into a racist rant at work — with a ‘free speech’ argument,” Crandall said. “What do we know about people making this argument? The correlation between using the free speech defense and people’s own racial prejudice is pretty high. It’s racists defending racists.”

Indeed, the new study reveals a positive correlation between having racial prejudice and defending racist speech using the “free speech argument” — a stronger correlation than the researchers expected.

Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 12 2018 10:30 GMT
#9097
On July 12 2018 15:27 gobbledydook wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2018 10:53 Plansix wrote:
The fact that people continue to have delusions that Trump is anything more than a loud mouth billionaires with enough charisma to beat an equally unappealing candidate never ceases to impress.

And I aagree with Wom that Clinton could literally die and people would still say she was going to run for office/


Let's change the topic

Is there a solution for those displaced by global trade, e.g. Rust Belt workers, that would ensure that the gains of global trade are distributed fairly to them, and that the Democrat Party could embrace?

as a technical note; most of them (rust belt workers) weren't displaced by global trade; they just blame global trade for it. most of them were replaced by automation.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1915 Posts
July 12 2018 10:46 GMT
#9098
edition.cnn.com

Trump is continuing his gradeschool bully approach to international diplomacy.

To me, it seems like he is courting his supporter base, probably knowing his bluff is called by the foreign leaders.

If the defence budgets DO increase, it will be because Europe do not trust the US as an ally, and need not to depend on them. This will be a disaster for the US as a would-be superpower.
Buff the siegetank
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 12 2018 11:34 GMT
#9099
On July 12 2018 15:27 gobbledydook wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2018 10:53 Plansix wrote:
The fact that people continue to have delusions that Trump is anything more than a loud mouth billionaires with enough charisma to beat an equally unappealing candidate never ceases to impress.

And I aagree with Wom that Clinton could literally die and people would still say she was going to run for office/


Let's change the topic

Is there a solution for those displaced by global trade, e.g. Rust Belt workers, that would ensure that the gains of global trade are distributed fairly to them, and that the Democrat Party could embrace?

There are already extra benefit programs if your job is lost due to trade. Limits to what we can do, for those who already have a special deal.

https://www.doleta.gov/tradeact/benefits/
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9646 Posts
July 12 2018 12:19 GMT
#9100
On July 12 2018 19:46 Slydie wrote:
edition.cnn.com

Trump is continuing his gradeschool bully approach to international diplomacy.

To me, it seems like he is courting his supporter base, probably knowing his bluff is called by the foreign leaders.

If the defence budgets DO increase, it will be because Europe do not trust the US as an ally, and need not to depend on them. This will be a disaster for the US as a would-be superpower.


Trump's diplomatic relations meetings:

1: Say how terrible *x foreign country* is for some reason
2: Arrange meeting saying its going to be historic and great for America
3: Go to meeting and make demands
4: Claim victory and go home
5: Start the cycle again when none of his ridiculous demands are met.
RIP Meatloaf <3
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