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On June 28 2018 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:46 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Is it though? After the last election I feel more like stoking the populaces fear and insecurities is how you persuade voters. At least in the US. i find trump to be very charismatic... "make america great again" .. is meant to inspire... not invoke fear. reagan used it.. it worked for him. now Trump contradicts himself in crazy ways sometimes... to the point of almost being comical.
I remember Trump's campaign more for it's Mexican Rapists, Bad Hombres, and Muslim Ban comments inspiring less in the conventional sense and more in the "you're uncomfortable with those scary brown folk right?" way.
But campaign Trump was a lot like looking into a mirror, everyone sees something different.
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On June 28 2018 04:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:45 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is a long list of "disgusting shit" that is in their platform. They are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16. The Republicans are a well oiled political machine... and they're winning. The republicans are far more than donald trump. In fact, many republicans don't want him as their leader. There is no arguing with this line. The Republicans have been amazing at winning elections since Obama was elected. They have shitkicked the Democrats into political irrelevance and control the majority of the US government. It is their inability to govern effectively that will likely be their downfall. This isn’t the 2007 financial crash where the Democrats take control so they can save the country from the crash and take the blame for doing it. When tax cut and the poor governance rural red states comes back to haunt them, there won’t be anyone to save them. And there won’t be black president to blame for everything. imo , W. Bush is the worst US president in 50 year by a huge margin. what he did to the USA was horrific.
Oh please everyone loves to hate on W but he really hasn't half as bad as people say. No other president had their term upended by such a nationally traumatic event and the economic crash of 2007 was a result of an effort to give everyone a chance at having generational wealth. Carter made mistakes real mistakes in his presidency and worse then anything did less then obama to note of.
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On June 28 2018 04:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:45 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is a long list of "disgusting shit" that is in their platform. They are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16. The Republicans are a well oiled political machine... and they're winning. The republicans are far more than donald trump. In fact, many republicans don't want him as their leader. There is no arguing with this line. The Republicans have been amazing at winning elections since Obama was elected. They have shitkicked the Democrats into political irrelevance and control the majority of the US government. It is their inability to govern effectively that will likely be their downfall. This isn’t the 2007 financial crash where the Democrats take control so they can save the country from the crash and take the blame for doing it. When tax cut and the poor governance rural red states comes back to haunt them, there won’t be anyone to save them. And there won’t be black president to blame for everything. imo , W. Bush is the worst US president in the last 50 years by a huge margin. what he did to the USA was horrific... and Clinton left the country in great shape... which makes W. Bush's incompetence even more sad.
I have no love for Clinton. Most of what he did in his second term under the Republican held house got to the country to where we are today. From de-regulating cable media to the three strikes law, most the bills Clinton championed and signed have done real damage to this country.
But Bush was complete shit. For all Bills faults, he didn’t trick the US and our Allies into invading a country on a lie and openly advocate for torture of terrorists.
On June 28 2018 04:58 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is a long list of "disgusting shit" that is in their platform. They are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16. The Republicans are a well oiled political machine... and they're winning. The republicans are far more than donald trump. In fact, many republicans don't want him as their leader. There is no arguing with this line. The Republicans have been amazing at winning elections since Obama was elected. They have shitkicked the Democrats into political irrelevance and control the majority of the US government. It is their inability to govern effectively that will likely be their downfall. This isn’t the 2007 financial crash where the Democrats take control so they can save the country from the crash and take the blame for doing it. When tax cut and the poor governance rural red states comes back to haunt them, there won’t be anyone to save them. And there won’t be black president to blame for everything. imo , W. Bush is the worst US president in 50 year by a huge margin. what he did to the USA was horrific. Oh please everyone loves to hate on W but he really hasn't half as bad as people say. No other president had their term upended by such a nationally traumatic event and the economic crash of 2007 was a result of an effort to give everyone a chance at having generational wealth. Carter made mistakes real mistakes in his presidency and worse then anything did less then obama to note of.
Carter didn't send my brother to war based on a lie, so Bush is still top dog for shit president. Trump is a close second.
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On June 28 2018 04:55 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:46 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Is it though? After the last election I feel more like stoking the populaces fear and insecurities is how you persuade voters. At least in the US. i find trump to be very charismatic... "make america great again" .. is meant to inspire... not invoke fear. reagan used it.. it worked for him. now Trump contradicts himself in crazy ways sometimes... to the point of almost being comical. I remember Trump's campaign more for it's Mexican Rapists, Bad Hombres, and Muslim Ban comments inspiring less in the conventional sense and more in the "you're uncomfortable with those scary brown folk right?" way. But campaign Trump was a lot like looking into a mirror, everyone sees something different.
The thing about campaign trump was that it was the only campaign that you ever heard about. I couldn't tell you a single thing Hillary did or said on the campaign trail.
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I hope now left and right can really agree that the Congress should exercise its role and rein in the courts.
That would be the actual best outcome.
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On June 28 2018 05:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is a long list of "disgusting shit" that is in their platform. They are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16. The Republicans are a well oiled political machine... and they're winning. The republicans are far more than donald trump. In fact, many republicans don't want him as their leader. There is no arguing with this line. The Republicans have been amazing at winning elections since Obama was elected. They have shitkicked the Democrats into political irrelevance and control the majority of the US government. It is their inability to govern effectively that will likely be their downfall. This isn’t the 2007 financial crash where the Democrats take control so they can save the country from the crash and take the blame for doing it. When tax cut and the poor governance rural red states comes back to haunt them, there won’t be anyone to save them. And there won’t be black president to blame for everything. imo , W. Bush is the worst US president in the last 50 years by a huge margin. what he did to the USA was horrific... and Clinton left the country in great shape... which makes W. Bush's incompetence even more sad. I have no love for Clinton. Most of what he did in his second term under the Republican held house got to the country to where we are today. From de-regulating cable media to the three strikes law, most the bills Clinton championed and signed have done real damage to this country. But Bush was complete shit. For all Bills faults, he didn’t trick the US and our Allies into invading a country on a lie and openly advocate for torture of terrorists. Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:58 Sermokala wrote:On June 28 2018 04:53 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is a long list of "disgusting shit" that is in their platform. They are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16. The Republicans are a well oiled political machine... and they're winning. The republicans are far more than donald trump. In fact, many republicans don't want him as their leader. There is no arguing with this line. The Republicans have been amazing at winning elections since Obama was elected. They have shitkicked the Democrats into political irrelevance and control the majority of the US government. It is their inability to govern effectively that will likely be their downfall. This isn’t the 2007 financial crash where the Democrats take control so they can save the country from the crash and take the blame for doing it. When tax cut and the poor governance rural red states comes back to haunt them, there won’t be anyone to save them. And there won’t be black president to blame for everything. imo , W. Bush is the worst US president in 50 year by a huge margin. what he did to the USA was horrific. Oh please everyone loves to hate on W but he really hasn't half as bad as people say. No other president had their term upended by such a nationally traumatic event and the economic crash of 2007 was a result of an effort to give everyone a chance at having generational wealth. Carter made mistakes real mistakes in his presidency and worse then anything did less then obama to note of. Carter didn't send my brother to war based on a lie, so Bush is still top dog for shit president. Trump is a close second.
He sent my aunt to war on intelligence that was faulty. He didn't lie to the world and the world didn't all jump in with us even like they did with the first gulf war. If the nations didn't feel that the intelligence was good enough they could have followed Frances lead and not gone. Putting all the responsibility on the US isn't honest or fair.
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On June 28 2018 05:03 Introvert wrote:
I hope now left and right can really agree that the Congress should exercise its role and rein in the courts.
That would be the actual best outcome. Republicans have made it very clear they have no interest in actually governing. They are in the business of complaining about how others do they job they should be doing.
And why would the right want to rein in the courts when they will now be stacked in their favor?
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On June 28 2018 05:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 05:03 Introvert wrote:
I hope now left and right can really agree that the Congress should exercise its role and rein in the courts.
That would be the actual best outcome. Republicans have made it very clear they have no interest in actually governing. They are in the business of complaining about how others do they job they should be doing. And why would the right want to rein in the courts when they will now be stacked in their favor?
We must win elections at every level and pass amendments.
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On June 28 2018 04:55 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:46 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Is it though? After the last election I feel more like stoking the populaces fear and insecurities is how you persuade voters. At least in the US. i find trump to be very charismatic... "make america great again" .. is meant to inspire... not invoke fear. reagan used it.. it worked for him. now Trump contradicts himself in crazy ways sometimes... to the point of almost being comical. I remember Trump's campaign more for it's Mexican Rapists, Bad Hombres, and Muslim Ban comments inspiring less in the conventional sense and more in the "you're uncomfortable with those scary brown folk right?" way. But campaign Trump was a lot like looking into a mirror, everyone sees something different.
i saw lots of "Make America Great Again" hats. some of Trump's tactics were inspirational... some of his tactics were fear mongering. i think claiming his campaign was primarily fear mongering is off-base.
I think certain news outlets wanted me to believe his campaign was entirely comprised of fear mongering though.
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On June 28 2018 04:55 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:46 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Is it though? After the last election I feel more like stoking the populaces fear and insecurities is how you persuade voters. At least in the US. i find trump to be very charismatic... "make america great again" .. is meant to inspire... not invoke fear. reagan used it.. it worked for him. now Trump contradicts himself in crazy ways sometimes... to the point of almost being comical. I remember Trump's campaign more for it's Mexican Rapists, Bad Hombres, and Muslim Ban comments inspiring less in the conventional sense and more in the "you're uncomfortable with those scary brown folk right?" way. But campaign Trump was a lot like looking into a mirror, everyone sees something different.
The key is to look at what Trump does and not what he says.
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On June 28 2018 04:46 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Is it though? After the last election I feel more like stoking the populaces fear and insecurities is how you persuade voters. At least in the US.
it is how you win votes.
Jimmy is using a very different definition of "meaningful discussion" than you are. hence the different conclusions.
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Well peoples fears and insecurities are pretty meaningful to those people so it probably does fall into even your definition of "meaningful discussion" zeflin.
You win votes by presenting a positive reason to vote for you. You can do that in a lot of ways but simply telling people the other side is bad or is doing bad things isn't going to convince anyone to vote for you no matter how truthful you think that is.
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On June 28 2018 05:00 Plansix wrote:
I have no love for Clinton. Most of what he did in his second term under the Republican held house got to the country to where we are today. From de-regulating cable media to the three strikes law, most the bills Clinton championed and signed have done real damage to this country.
But Bush was complete shit. For all Bills faults, he didn’t trick the US and our Allies into invading a country on a lie and openly advocate for torture of terrorists.
ah i didn't know that about the 3 strikes law.
dude, the economy where i live... was like a fantasy land of money in 2000. The economy started to very slowly lose steam from 2000 to 2006. i'd credit Clinton with making things so good around 2000 and for setting things up to be great. Well for where i live its Clinton,Chretien (PM), and Harris(Premiere) who deserve the credit.
the economy bombed in 2007 and it hasn't been the same since.
its pretty sad to see 20 year olds who have no concept of what a rockin' economy looks like.
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On June 28 2018 05:11 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:55 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:46 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Is it though? After the last election I feel more like stoking the populaces fear and insecurities is how you persuade voters. At least in the US. i find trump to be very charismatic... "make america great again" .. is meant to inspire... not invoke fear. reagan used it.. it worked for him. now Trump contradicts himself in crazy ways sometimes... to the point of almost being comical. I remember Trump's campaign more for it's Mexican Rapists, Bad Hombres, and Muslim Ban comments inspiring less in the conventional sense and more in the "you're uncomfortable with those scary brown folk right?" way. But campaign Trump was a lot like looking into a mirror, everyone sees something different. The key is to look at what Trump does and not what he says.
Like pardoning Arpaio?
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On June 28 2018 05:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:55 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:46 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Is it though? After the last election I feel more like stoking the populaces fear and insecurities is how you persuade voters. At least in the US. i find trump to be very charismatic... "make america great again" .. is meant to inspire... not invoke fear. reagan used it.. it worked for him. now Trump contradicts himself in crazy ways sometimes... to the point of almost being comical. I remember Trump's campaign more for it's Mexican Rapists, Bad Hombres, and Muslim Ban comments inspiring less in the conventional sense and more in the "you're uncomfortable with those scary brown folk right?" way. But campaign Trump was a lot like looking into a mirror, everyone sees something different. i saw lots of "Make America Great Again" hats. some of Trump's tactics were inspirational... some of his tactics were fear mongering. i think claiming his campaign was primarily fear mongering is off-base. I think certain news outlets wanted me to believe his campaign was entirely comprised of fear mongering though.
I would find "MAGA" a much more inspirational message if it was "MAG." The "Again" is the fearful part to me, the way it casts the US as weak/pathetic/diminished relative to its past self. "We can be better, like we used to be" to me says "we need to be scared of where we're going" but I guess it resonates differently with different people.
It's even beyond "we need to stay great like we are" which was the rallying cry of what are now RINOs. It will be interesting to see whether Trump bothers changing the slogan or if we're still not going to be great in 2020. Once Reagan won, it was morning in America, after all, not "we need to make it morning in America."
The "again" is also an incredibly alienating concept to people who are in a shitty place and are STILL better off than they ever were because of just how awful the world has been to them of course.
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On June 28 2018 05:17 Sermokala wrote:
Well peoples fears and insecurities are pretty meaningful to those people so it probably does fall into even your definition of "meaningful discussion" zeflin.
You win votes by presenting a positive reason to vote for you. You can do that in a lot of ways but simply telling people the other side is bad or is doing bad things isn't going to convince anyone to vote for you no matter how truthful you think that is.
my standards of meaningful discussion are unusually high; and it'd also require more than simply fanning the flames of hatred with false hoods to qualify for meaningfulness, so it wouldn't in many of the cases. It'd require a demonstration of actual threat to qualify; rather than just vague accusations and hatred-spewing without a decent basis in reality.
Just because statements are about peoples' fears and insecurities doesn't mean it's a meaningful discussion (for my definition as compared to Jimmy's).
on your other point, that is indeed true as a trend sadly. and ofc it needs to again be an emotional reason to vote for you; rather than a well-justified rational one.
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On June 28 2018 05:11 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:55 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:46 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Is it though? After the last election I feel more like stoking the populaces fear and insecurities is how you persuade voters. At least in the US. i find trump to be very charismatic... "make america great again" .. is meant to inspire... not invoke fear. reagan used it.. it worked for him. now Trump contradicts himself in crazy ways sometimes... to the point of almost being comical. I remember Trump's campaign more for it's Mexican Rapists, Bad Hombres, and Muslim Ban comments inspiring less in the conventional sense and more in the "you're uncomfortable with those scary brown folk right?" way. But campaign Trump was a lot like looking into a mirror, everyone sees something different. The key is to look at what Trump does and not what he says.
Well, we've seen him try repeatedly to push his racist Muslin ban, which has finally gotten through the net. We've seen him cozy up to our enemies in ways that haven't gotten us anything or anywhere. We've seen him lash out at our allies and put tariffs on them, which is working out wonderfully for American businesses. And we've seen him throw immigrant children in cages, when their families were seeking asylum. And now, you're going to have a Conservative majority in the Supreme Court for the next generation or so, unless something astronomically unlikely were to take place.
But you and I both know that what he says also matters. People don't put #MAGA and #lockherup in their posts for no reason. People don't get their rocks off by "slaying libs and drinking their tears" for no reason. They didn't run protestors over at a white supremacist rally for no reason. Those are all things done by people emboldened by the messages Trump sends to his base. You know this.
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On June 28 2018 04:34 xDaunt wrote:
The bottom line is that, regardless of Trump's atypical presentation, he has been a wonderfully conservative president. Republicans at large should be happy with what they have gotten so far. And most are. But the sophists and charlatans in the republican/conservative establishment continue to resent Trump and stand in his way of moving things forward. This is why I have far more disdain for the republican establishment than any other political entity out there.
But at what cost?
Surely even you are sensitive to the erosion of civility and discourse as a result of Trump. The rising xenophobic and racist sentiments coming out of the shadows, emboldened by his rhetoric. The disregard for separations of power. The damaging of our relations with allies. His attacks on the free press and rebuking any criticism, no mafter how valid. Worst of all, his flagrant disregard for truth.
Do you really think there will be no ramifications to embracing somebody who acts like this? Do you think there will be no damage done to our democracy by you and your Republicans desire to ignore his faults because you like a few outcomes? Frankly its shameful. You could have gotten all the same results with picking someone who doesn't hold democratic values in contempt.
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United States42291 Posts
On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 03:44 Simberto wrote: So more decisions for money in politics, against minority rights, against womens rights, for christian liberty (It isn't really religious liberty anymore, is it?), for corruption, against humans rights and for all the other disgusting shit the republican party stands for. nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Mike Harris and Bob Rae are two guys who won elections they had no business winning because they persuaded voters. Both guys were long shots to win at the start of their campaigns. The left-wingers pretend Mike Harris is a Trump bully. The right-wingers call Rae a communist. Fact is, they were both brilliant guys on opposite ends of the political spectrum and these "party loyalists" are blind to how good their opposition is.
We got here because voters heard the word emails a thousand times and thought to themselves “if there’s nothing to it then why do I keep hearing about it”. Meaningful discussion has nothing on that.
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On June 28 2018 05:20 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 05:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:55 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:46 Zambrah wrote:On June 28 2018 04:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:41 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 28 2018 04:36 zlefin wrote:On June 28 2018 04:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
[quote]
nah, the republican party doesn't stand for a long list of "disgusting shit" like you say they do. I disagree with many of their policies and at the same time I realize that engaging in a maudlin rant won't result in meaningful discussion. they actually kinda do. not completely ofc; but there's a substantial validity to it. just because such a rant won't result in meaningful discussion doesn't mean it's wrong. and it's been amply demonstrated that meaningful discussion isn't their plan anyways. i don't think there is. they are good enough at meaningful discussion to lead the Democrats in governors 33-16 the Republicans are a well oiled political machine. that does not follow at all as an argument. Just because they win doesn't mean they hold meaningful discussion. It means they are a well oiled political machine; which is very different from having meaningful discussion. it's also very clear that their mechanism of victory isn't based on meaningful discussion; and there's vast amounts of literature in the political science field to show that reasonable, meaningful discussion isn't the basis of how most people vote in general. most of their terrible shit isn't expressly in their platform, but some of it is; and far more is proven by their wink and a nod patterns demonstrating so. meangingful discussion is how you persuade voters. Is it though? After the last election I feel more like stoking the populaces fear and insecurities is how you persuade voters. At least in the US. i find trump to be very charismatic... "make america great again" .. is meant to inspire... not invoke fear. reagan used it.. it worked for him. now Trump contradicts himself in crazy ways sometimes... to the point of almost being comical. I remember Trump's campaign more for it's Mexican Rapists, Bad Hombres, and Muslim Ban comments inspiring less in the conventional sense and more in the "you're uncomfortable with those scary brown folk right?" way. But campaign Trump was a lot like looking into a mirror, everyone sees something different. i saw lots of "Make America Great Again" hats. some of Trump's tactics were inspirational... some of his tactics were fear mongering. i think claiming his campaign was primarily fear mongering is off-base. I think certain news outlets wanted me to believe his campaign was entirely comprised of fear mongering though. I would find "MAGA" a much more inspirational message if it was "MAG." The "Again" is the fearful part to me, the way it casts the US as weak/pathetic/diminished relative to its past self. "We can be better, like we used to be" to me says "we need to be scared of where we're going" but I guess it resonates differently with different people. It's even beyond "we need to stay great like we are" which was the rallying cry of what are now RINOs. It will be interesting to see whether Trump bothers changing the slogan or if we're still not going to be great in 2020. Once Reagan won, it was morning in America, after all, not "we need to make it morning in America."
MAGA is the brand, I doubt he'll change it.
Do you seriously think the next campaign isn't going to be full of grievance politics and lies about things Democrats or Obama did to hamper/stop him from succeeding? The border wall will be front and centre, Mexican immigrants will still be storming towns and raping everything in sight then forcibly injecting them with drugs, NK is led by the best dictator by the way, just the best, he's a friend of Trump's now, we're too soft on everybody, we're getting beaten in trade, companies are being bullied by the EU...
I mean. It's pretty obvious what he's going to be doing. America won't be 'Great' until every other nation is bowing down and worshipping at Trump's feet. Every mean word, every dismissive comment, everything must be repaid for the job to be done.
Me, I welcome our Chinese overlords, and hope that the USA does okay in its retirement home, shouting 'gerrof mah lawn' at anyone who approaches and brandishing its shotgun.
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EPT
