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United States42685 Posts
On March 05 2022 11:29 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 00:15 JimmiC wrote:On March 04 2022 09:35 Doc.Rivers wrote:On March 03 2022 14:10 StasisField wrote:Interesting news out of the january 6th select committee. The committee claim it has evidence that Trump and some of his allies are guilty of various crimes related to the 2020 election and january 6th. The Jan. 6 select committee says its evidence has shown that then-President Donald Trump and his campaign tried to illegally obstruct Congress’ counting of electoral votes and “engaged in a criminal conspiracy to defraud the United States.”
In a major release of its findings, filed in federal court late Wednesday, the committee suggested that its evidence supported findings that Trump himself violated multiple laws by attempting to prevent Congress from certifying his defeat.
“The Select Committee also has a good-faith basis for concluding that the President and members of his Campaign engaged in a criminal conspiracy to defraud the United States,” the committee wrote in a filing submitted in U.S. District Court in the Central District of California The committee suggests Trump and some of his allies may have committed three distinct crimes: Obstruction of an official proceeding — in this case, Congress’ Jan 6 session to count electoral votes — defrauding the United States by interfering in the election certification and spreading false information about the results, and a violation of the District of Columbia’s common fraud law. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/02/jan6-trump-obstruction-justice-00013440 I suspect that many will end up disappointed on this. All that the committee can do is recommend to the DOJ that charges be pursued, but the DOJ has not yet shown any signs of interest in any central plot related to January 6th, even though the DOJ is thoroughly investigating everything. Most likely, the DOJ is already fully aware of the facts on which the committee people are basing their argument. I'm kind of disappointed, but by this point I'm pretty used to rich and powerful people not being held accountable in the courts in the US. What really is disappointing is when it is clear that he was doing his damndest to overturn a free and fair election (end actual democracy) that so many Republican voters do not care. They seem to have no concept that the institution of democracy is more important than the party and certainly Trump. It is like they have no clue that the next person, who could be from either party now knows there is no risk to openly and blatantly try to hold power even if they lose. They even have a better idea of how to do it. I sure hope the US government works to close any loop holes because the justice system and the voters appear to not be able too. I do like that some Republican groups are happy to remind at least Fox Veiwers how until last week Trump was Putin's biggest fan! https://ca.yahoo.com/news/republican-group-reminds-fox-viewers-095435686.html I'm not worried about any "coups" by a president myself. The institutions in the US are too strong for it to succeed. Look how far Trump got - he filed lawsuits and then a crowd of crazies broke into the capitol. There was never actually a viable "coup" attempt made. And the military would never go along with it so as to make it viable.
If Pence had stayed home on Jan 6 Trump would have declared the election result uncertified and then thrown the result back to the state legislatures rather than the electoral college representatives. Please don’t minimize how close he got.
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I dare say that Trump stayed within the bounds of the law. Thus why the DOJ has not charged him, despite charging 700 others. He filed lawsuits, as opposed to calling in the national guard or the military. Neutral judges rejected those lawsuits. Even if Pence had acted out on January 6th, the states would presumably have just sent the electors back to dc. Or the Supreme court would have stepped in. Mostly what Trump did was to leave things up to judges. Then the crowd got out of hand on Jan 6th. But there is a reason the DOJ, after a thorough investigation and more than a year, has not charged Trump.
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United States42685 Posts
Well if you presume the state legislatures wouldn’t have disagreed with their electors then I guess we’re fine. I presume all your presumptions always come true.
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On March 05 2022 12:59 Doc.Rivers wrote:
I dare say that Trump stayed within the bounds of the law. Thus why the DOJ has not charged him, despite charging 700 others. He filed lawsuits, as opposed to calling in the national guard or the military. Neutral judges rejected those lawsuits. Even if Pence had acted out on January 6th, the states would presumably have just sent the electors back to dc. Or the Supreme court would have stepped in. Mostly what Trump did was to leave things up to judges. Then the crowd got out of hand on Jan 6th. But there is a reason the DOJ, after a thorough investigation and more than a year, has not charged Trump.
Mate, you gotta stop shrugging off the events. Trump spent weeks lying to not just his supporters but the entire country about a stolen election. Like why even downplay this at all? There's a thousand thousand reasons why Trump deserves the gutter, why pontificate the technicalities? The DOJ can't prosecute someone on pure lunacy, that's not an argument
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Its just Danglars 2.0. Don't see why you guys bother.
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They're definitely in the same vein, but not as clever. Danglars always veiled his BS in just enough stuff that it seemed like he had an argument. It took longer for folks to catch on with him.
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On March 05 2022 12:59 Doc.Rivers wrote:
I dare say that Trump stayed within the bounds of the law. Thus why the DOJ has not charged him, despite charging 700 others. He filed lawsuits, as opposed to calling in the national guard or the military. Neutral judges rejected those lawsuits. Even if Pence had acted out on January 6th, the states would presumably have just sent the electors back to dc. Or the Supreme court would have stepped in. Mostly what Trump did was to leave things up to judges. Then the crowd got out of hand on Jan 6th. But there is a reason the DOJ, after a thorough investigation and more than a year, has not charged Trump.
This trivializes so many things its incredible. The number of judges sent to the supreme court that worked on Florida back in 2000, the states not sending conflicting judges based on what parties controlled those states.
the dude organized a rally to "stop the steal" and then directed his supporters to the capitol after a number of firebrand speeches of people calling for a "trial by combat" among a large field of incredibly inflammatory statements.
He actually refused to call in the national guard like he should have to prevent his riot from getting into the capital. By sheer luck and the courage of heroes did we prevent the elected representatives from being slaughtered by a mob. The amount of things you are willing to ignore and handwave away just baffles me how you're a real human.
I'll never understand how he got past making fun of a reporter for his disability. His supporters are truly just vile people.
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On March 05 2022 15:17 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 12:59 Doc.Rivers wrote:
I dare say that Trump stayed within the bounds of the law. Thus why the DOJ has not charged him, despite charging 700 others. He filed lawsuits, as opposed to calling in the national guard or the military. Neutral judges rejected those lawsuits. Even if Pence had acted out on January 6th, the states would presumably have just sent the electors back to dc. Or the Supreme court would have stepped in. Mostly what Trump did was to leave things up to judges. Then the crowd got out of hand on Jan 6th. But there is a reason the DOJ, after a thorough investigation and more than a year, has not charged Trump. This trivializes so many things its incredible. The number of judges sent to the supreme court that worked on Florida back in 2000, the states not sending conflicting judges based on what parties controlled those states. the dude organized a rally to "stop the steal" and then directed his supporters to the capitol after a number of firebrand speeches of people calling for a "trial by combat" among a large field of incredibly inflammatory statements. He actually refused to call in the national guard like he should have to prevent his riot from getting into the capital. By sheer luck and the courage of heroes did we prevent the elected representatives from being slaughtered by a mob. The amount of things you are willing to ignore and handwave away just baffles me how you're a real human. I'll never understand how he got past making fun of a reporter for his disability. His supporters are truly just vile people.
Over 70 million people voted for Trump in 2020. You can't possibly mean that all 70 million of those are vile people.
The country would not survive long like this.
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On March 05 2022 18:58 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 15:17 Sermokala wrote:On March 05 2022 12:59 Doc.Rivers wrote:
I dare say that Trump stayed within the bounds of the law. Thus why the DOJ has not charged him, despite charging 700 others. He filed lawsuits, as opposed to calling in the national guard or the military. Neutral judges rejected those lawsuits. Even if Pence had acted out on January 6th, the states would presumably have just sent the electors back to dc. Or the Supreme court would have stepped in. Mostly what Trump did was to leave things up to judges. Then the crowd got out of hand on Jan 6th. But there is a reason the DOJ, after a thorough investigation and more than a year, has not charged Trump. This trivializes so many things its incredible. The number of judges sent to the supreme court that worked on Florida back in 2000, the states not sending conflicting judges based on what parties controlled those states. the dude organized a rally to "stop the steal" and then directed his supporters to the capitol after a number of firebrand speeches of people calling for a "trial by combat" among a large field of incredibly inflammatory statements. He actually refused to call in the national guard like he should have to prevent his riot from getting into the capital. By sheer luck and the courage of heroes did we prevent the elected representatives from being slaughtered by a mob. The amount of things you are willing to ignore and handwave away just baffles me how you're a real human. I'll never understand how he got past making fun of a reporter for his disability. His supporters are truly just vile people. Over 70 million people voted for Trump in 2020. You can't possibly mean that all 70 million of those are vile people. The country would not survive long like this. They voted for Trump after seeing 4 years of Trump as President. Why can't we call them vile people for supporting such a man?
I'd say that 70 million people seeing the clusterfuck that was the Trump administration and thought "I want 4 more years of that" shows there is indeed a deep rooted problem in the US.
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I'd be much interested in why these people voted for Trump. Because I wanna know what kind of world they are looking at. I believe that their world has significant disparities to my perception. Clusterfuck is probably not what they saw.
And herein lies the big, big problem.
One of the worst things that happened to the world in the last decade is "alternative facts".
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I'd call most of them some combination of propagandized, and desperate after years of economic distress and conservative news and insanity being pushed by the likes of Mark Zuckerberg and his cohort of tech assholes. Definitely a fair number of vile people support Trump though, but I dont think I'd call all of them vile, at least not in any sort of inherent way.
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Think of it as 70 million voting for the R next to Trump's name, not neccessarily voting for the guy himself. And yes, that is proof of the glaring issue with two-party systems such as in the US - even with fraudulent insurrectionists causing direct and indirect death of american citizens on american soil being the candidate being put forth, the alternative is still not acceptable for a great ammount of voters due to base party values.
The entire election system needs to be reworked from the ground up to give the voters real choice instead of the current irrelevant farce.
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United States42685 Posts
On March 05 2022 18:58 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 15:17 Sermokala wrote:On March 05 2022 12:59 Doc.Rivers wrote:
I dare say that Trump stayed within the bounds of the law. Thus why the DOJ has not charged him, despite charging 700 others. He filed lawsuits, as opposed to calling in the national guard or the military. Neutral judges rejected those lawsuits. Even if Pence had acted out on January 6th, the states would presumably have just sent the electors back to dc. Or the Supreme court would have stepped in. Mostly what Trump did was to leave things up to judges. Then the crowd got out of hand on Jan 6th. But there is a reason the DOJ, after a thorough investigation and more than a year, has not charged Trump. This trivializes so many things its incredible. The number of judges sent to the supreme court that worked on Florida back in 2000, the states not sending conflicting judges based on what parties controlled those states. the dude organized a rally to "stop the steal" and then directed his supporters to the capitol after a number of firebrand speeches of people calling for a "trial by combat" among a large field of incredibly inflammatory statements. He actually refused to call in the national guard like he should have to prevent his riot from getting into the capital. By sheer luck and the courage of heroes did we prevent the elected representatives from being slaughtered by a mob. The amount of things you are willing to ignore and handwave away just baffles me how you're a real human. I'll never understand how he got past making fun of a reporter for his disability. His supporters are truly just vile people. Over 70 million people voted for Trump in 2020. You can't possibly mean that all 70 million of those are vile people. The country would not survive long like this.
If he doesn’t mean it then let me make it clear that I do.
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United States24680 Posts
Some of them just don't pay attention and learn about all the awful things done by the person and party they are voting for. That doesn't make them look good but they may not be vile.
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On March 05 2022 19:33 Artisreal wrote:
I'd be much interested in why these people voted for Trump. Because I wanna know what kind of world they are looking at. I believe that their world has significant disparities to my perception. Clusterfuck is probably not what they saw.
And herein lies the big, big problem.
One of the worst things that happened to the world in the last decade is "alternative facts".
If you want to see what world they are looking at, watch Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham on Fox.
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Personally I find this exchange incredibly amusing thinking back to how much the GOP bent over backwards to take Clinton out of context with her deplorables comment that specifically stated that not all Trump voters are deplorable and that some were doing what they thought was best.
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On March 06 2022 01:19 Starlightsun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 19:33 Artisreal wrote:
I'd be much interested in why these people voted for Trump. Because I wanna know what kind of world they are looking at. I believe that their world has significant disparities to my perception. Clusterfuck is probably not what they saw.
And herein lies the big, big problem.
One of the worst things that happened to the world in the last decade is "alternative facts". If you want to see what world they are looking at, watch Carlson, Hannity and Ingraham on Fox.
If I was drinking that cool aid for long enough and nobody would challenge me or them (fox n friends), I feel it's not likely that I'd be brainwashed to think insulting stuff like "women have it pretty good compared to men". But if I hadn't developed my values beforehand and am just looking for opinions or stances to adopt, this is where I'll go. The message is simple, easy, there's a clear cut between "us and them" and the message doesn't need to be consistent over different issues. So no need for a comprehensive ideology, apart from always being in the right.
Doesn't help me understand what drives people to believe that this is only version of reality that exists.
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On March 06 2022 01:21 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Personally I find this exchange incredibly amusing thinking back to how much the GOP bent over backwards to take Clinton out of context with her deplorables comment that specifically stated that not all Trump voters are deplorable and that some were doing what they thought was best.
People also don't like being called names, even if those names are accurate.
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Northern Ireland25320 Posts
Regardless of how close, or not things came, it’s the fact that Trump could very conceivably be the nominee next time around.
Irrespective of things like criminal censure, he should be at least a political pariah, wholly unelectable. Which is demonstrably not the case.
It’s not like candidate Trump wasn’t problematic as all hell, but I could see how some of rhetoric definitely would appeal to certain groups of people, in legitimate ways on occasion.
It’s been 6 years of incompetence and moral bankruptcy in equal measure and well, people seem fine with it. But they also don’t want to be criticised for being fine with it, which is the rather odd part.
One can be a conservative and not vote Trump, or indeed reluctantly vote Trump in a lesser of no evils scenario, and also say, not defend his ‘stop the steal’ crusade.
Such things are eminently possible
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EPT
