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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On February 22 2022 06:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 06:13 Oukka wrote:On February 22 2022 05:14 zeo wrote:On February 22 2022 04:17 Simberto wrote:On February 22 2022 04:01 maybenexttime wrote:
You're so thoroughly brainwashed. ;-) Yeah, it is quite impressive how you can look at Ukraine and get any impression except "Russia is fucking that country up". Ukraine hasn't "collapsed because of Euromaidan", it has a war being waged upon by Russia. Russia has at this point already annexed part of the country, turned another part into "independent" states with suspicious amounts of russian weapons, and is currently building up troops on the border again. If you are sad about the state of Ukraine, be angry at Putin. Without russian imperialistic bullshit the country would almost certainly still not be perfect, but way better off. The origin of all conflict inside the Ukraine currently is without a doubt Euromaidan. However much this fact might inconvenience your narrative, it doesn’t change what happened or why eight years later the Ukraine is in the position it is in. The act of a street mob overthrowing democratically elected judicial, legislative and executive authorities, authorities that half the country thought were better than the authorities the other half had in mind; was always going to end in a drastic manner. However much you are told you are right while holding a torch in a mob. Overthrowing democratically elected officials and installing unelected people with shady backgrounds hell bent on abusing their power to the detriment of a large part of the population (and for personal financial gain), will cause a reaction from that population. Would Crimea still be a part of Ukraine if there was no street mob overthrowing the government in Kiev? Yes it would. Would there be a war? No. Would everyone in Ukraine be better off acting like Finland and not do anything stupid like openly antagonizing a nuclear power next door? Yes, they would be doing much today without any pro-west or pro-east politicians profiting from selling out their country to foreign interests. Pro-all people living inside Ukraine is not such a radical idea. Ukraine and Finland are very different countries with very different relationships and histories with Russia and I find it very ignorant to claim that Ukraine could just act like Finland (or if someone vice versa asked us to act like Ukraine). Finland at most would be a geographical buffer zone with very little significance economically or culturally to modern Russia. Ukraine on the other hand has much more recent history of Russian rule and also happens to be a key gateway for transit of Russian goods (gas pipes come to mind at least) to Southern and Central Europe. You also likely know that Finland has freely decided to join the EU in 1995 and since then has also been slowly aligning itself with NATO, something Russia seems to oppose very much in Ukraine's case. It's quite silly to claim that Finland isn't "pro-west" to use your terms. In some sense it might have even been better to be more "pro-east" in the short term, given how much some of the EU- imposed sanctions have hurt our trade with Russia, but as an independent nation we've actually been able to make the choice ourselves to align with the "pro-west". That appears to be something Russia seeks to stop Ukraine from doing. Edit: because this is the US-pol thread, lets add in some actual US-content that I came across today. The Trump Twitter ripoff apparently launched today and it appears to be going just as well as one would think. The tweet underneath is the beginning of a thread by an American professor in AI/Privacy and whose done some work on keeping up with the alt-righters and their social media presence. https://twitter.com/jengolbeck/status/1495779955560570881?s=20&t=iUbmrlKdWG8bXBxN4Tvv5A I mean the comparison with Finland is not bad. Finland was bullied to oblivion, invaded, fought a heroic war in which it lost a third of its territory and spent decades in terror of the USSR until it joined Nato. It’s the perfect showcase of how much of a nightmare being a neighbour to Russia is.
In some ways for sure.
But what bothered me a lot was the 'act like Finland' part. Align yourself with the west like Finland has done since collapse of USSR? Putin seems hellbent on stopping Ukraine from doing just that. Act like Finland did 1945-1980's (period of finlandisation)? I.e. okay every major political decision with Moscow beforehand, up to the point of censorship of schoolbooks? I can't really wish that to ukrainians or anybody else either.
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Finland964 Posts
On February 22 2022 06:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 06:13 Oukka wrote:On February 22 2022 05:14 zeo wrote:On February 22 2022 04:17 Simberto wrote:On February 22 2022 04:01 maybenexttime wrote:
You're so thoroughly brainwashed. ;-) Yeah, it is quite impressive how you can look at Ukraine and get any impression except "Russia is fucking that country up". Ukraine hasn't "collapsed because of Euromaidan", it has a war being waged upon by Russia. Russia has at this point already annexed part of the country, turned another part into "independent" states with suspicious amounts of russian weapons, and is currently building up troops on the border again. If you are sad about the state of Ukraine, be angry at Putin. Without russian imperialistic bullshit the country would almost certainly still not be perfect, but way better off. The origin of all conflict inside the Ukraine currently is without a doubt Euromaidan. However much this fact might inconvenience your narrative, it doesn’t change what happened or why eight years later the Ukraine is in the position it is in. The act of a street mob overthrowing democratically elected judicial, legislative and executive authorities, authorities that half the country thought were better than the authorities the other half had in mind; was always going to end in a drastic manner. However much you are told you are right while holding a torch in a mob. Overthrowing democratically elected officials and installing unelected people with shady backgrounds hell bent on abusing their power to the detriment of a large part of the population (and for personal financial gain), will cause a reaction from that population. Would Crimea still be a part of Ukraine if there was no street mob overthrowing the government in Kiev? Yes it would. Would there be a war? No. Would everyone in Ukraine be better off acting like Finland and not do anything stupid like openly antagonizing a nuclear power next door? Yes, they would be doing much today without any pro-west or pro-east politicians profiting from selling out their country to foreign interests. Pro-all people living inside Ukraine is not such a radical idea. Ukraine and Finland are very different countries with very different relationships and histories with Russia and I find it very ignorant to claim that Ukraine could just act like Finland (or if someone vice versa asked us to act like Ukraine). Finland at most would be a geographical buffer zone with very little significance economically or culturally to modern Russia. Ukraine on the other hand has much more recent history of Russian rule and also happens to be a key gateway for transit of Russian goods (gas pipes come to mind at least) to Southern and Central Europe. You also likely know that Finland has freely decided to join the EU in 1995 and since then has also been slowly aligning itself with NATO, something Russia seems to oppose very much in Ukraine's case. It's quite silly to claim that Finland isn't "pro-west" to use your terms. In some sense it might have even been better to be more "pro-east" in the short term, given how much some of the EU- imposed sanctions have hurt our trade with Russia, but as an independent nation we've actually been able to make the choice ourselves to align with the "pro-west". That appears to be something Russia seeks to stop Ukraine from doing. Edit: because this is the US-pol thread, lets add in some actual US-content that I came across today. The Trump Twitter ripoff apparently launched today and it appears to be going just as well as one would think. The tweet underneath is the beginning of a thread by an American professor in AI/Privacy and whose done some work on keeping up with the alt-righters and their social media presence. https://twitter.com/jengolbeck/status/1495779955560570881?s=20&t=iUbmrlKdWG8bXBxN4Tvv5A I mean the comparison with Finland is not bad. Finland was bullied to oblivion, invaded, fought a heroic war in which it lost a third of its territory and spent decades in terror of the USSR until it joined Nato. It’s the perfect showcase of how much of a nightmare being a neighbour to Russia is.
This is a gross over-simplification, and Finland is not a NATO member.
Both Ukraine and Finland have a long land border with Russia, but maybe you all should stop drawing parallels beyond that.
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On February 22 2022 06:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 06:13 Oukka wrote:On February 22 2022 05:14 zeo wrote:On February 22 2022 04:17 Simberto wrote:On February 22 2022 04:01 maybenexttime wrote:
You're so thoroughly brainwashed. ;-) Yeah, it is quite impressive how you can look at Ukraine and get any impression except "Russia is fucking that country up". Ukraine hasn't "collapsed because of Euromaidan", it has a war being waged upon by Russia. Russia has at this point already annexed part of the country, turned another part into "independent" states with suspicious amounts of russian weapons, and is currently building up troops on the border again. If you are sad about the state of Ukraine, be angry at Putin. Without russian imperialistic bullshit the country would almost certainly still not be perfect, but way better off. The origin of all conflict inside the Ukraine currently is without a doubt Euromaidan. However much this fact might inconvenience your narrative, it doesn’t change what happened or why eight years later the Ukraine is in the position it is in. The act of a street mob overthrowing democratically elected judicial, legislative and executive authorities, authorities that half the country thought were better than the authorities the other half had in mind; was always going to end in a drastic manner. However much you are told you are right while holding a torch in a mob. Overthrowing democratically elected officials and installing unelected people with shady backgrounds hell bent on abusing their power to the detriment of a large part of the population (and for personal financial gain), will cause a reaction from that population. Would Crimea still be a part of Ukraine if there was no street mob overthrowing the government in Kiev? Yes it would. Would there be a war? No. Would everyone in Ukraine be better off acting like Finland and not do anything stupid like openly antagonizing a nuclear power next door? Yes, they would be doing much today without any pro-west or pro-east politicians profiting from selling out their country to foreign interests. Pro-all people living inside Ukraine is not such a radical idea. Ukraine and Finland are very different countries with very different relationships and histories with Russia and I find it very ignorant to claim that Ukraine could just act like Finland (or if someone vice versa asked us to act like Ukraine). Finland at most would be a geographical buffer zone with very little significance economically or culturally to modern Russia. Ukraine on the other hand has much more recent history of Russian rule and also happens to be a key gateway for transit of Russian goods (gas pipes come to mind at least) to Southern and Central Europe. You also likely know that Finland has freely decided to join the EU in 1995 and since then has also been slowly aligning itself with NATO, something Russia seems to oppose very much in Ukraine's case. It's quite silly to claim that Finland isn't "pro-west" to use your terms. In some sense it might have even been better to be more "pro-east" in the short term, given how much some of the EU- imposed sanctions have hurt our trade with Russia, but as an independent nation we've actually been able to make the choice ourselves to align with the "pro-west". That appears to be something Russia seeks to stop Ukraine from doing. Edit: because this is the US-pol thread, lets add in some actual US-content that I came across today. The Trump Twitter ripoff apparently launched today and it appears to be going just as well as one would think. The tweet underneath is the beginning of a thread by an American professor in AI/Privacy and whose done some work on keeping up with the alt-righters and their social media presence. https://twitter.com/jengolbeck/status/1495779955560570881?s=20&t=iUbmrlKdWG8bXBxN4Tvv5A I mean the comparison with Finland is not bad. Finland was bullied to oblivion, invaded, fought a heroic war in which it lost a third of its territory and spent decades in terror of the USSR until it joined Nato. It’s the perfect showcase of how much of a nightmare being a neighbour to Russia is.
Finland's not in NATO.
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It's pretty obvious he somehow mixed up Finland with Poland, at least partially.
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On February 22 2022 06:13 Oukka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 05:14 zeo wrote:On February 22 2022 04:17 Simberto wrote:On February 22 2022 04:01 maybenexttime wrote:
You're so thoroughly brainwashed. ;-) Yeah, it is quite impressive how you can look at Ukraine and get any impression except "Russia is fucking that country up". Ukraine hasn't "collapsed because of Euromaidan", it has a war being waged upon by Russia. Russia has at this point already annexed part of the country, turned another part into "independent" states with suspicious amounts of russian weapons, and is currently building up troops on the border again. If you are sad about the state of Ukraine, be angry at Putin. Without russian imperialistic bullshit the country would almost certainly still not be perfect, but way better off. The origin of all conflict inside the Ukraine currently is without a doubt Euromaidan. However much this fact might inconvenience your narrative, it doesn’t change what happened or why eight years later the Ukraine is in the position it is in. The act of a street mob overthrowing democratically elected judicial, legislative and executive authorities, authorities that half the country thought were better than the authorities the other half had in mind; was always going to end in a drastic manner. However much you are told you are right while holding a torch in a mob. Overthrowing democratically elected officials and installing unelected people with shady backgrounds hell bent on abusing their power to the detriment of a large part of the population (and for personal financial gain), will cause a reaction from that population. Would Crimea still be a part of Ukraine if there was no street mob overthrowing the government in Kiev? Yes it would. Would there be a war? No. Would everyone in Ukraine be better off acting like Finland and not do anything stupid like openly antagonizing a nuclear power next door? Yes, they would be doing much today without any pro-west or pro-east politicians profiting from selling out their country to foreign interests. Pro-all people living inside Ukraine is not such a radical idea. Ukraine and Finland are very different countries with very different relationships and histories with Russia and I find it very ignorant to claim that Ukraine could just act like Finland (or if someone vice versa asked us to act like Ukraine). Finland at most would be a geographical buffer zone with very little significance economically or culturally to modern Russia. Ukraine on the other hand has much more recent history of Russian rule and also happens to be a key gateway for transit of Russian goods (gas pipes come to mind at least) to Southern and Central Europe. You also likely know that Finland has freely decided to join the EU in 1995 and since then has also been slowly aligning itself with NATO, something Russia seems to oppose very much in Ukraine's case. It's quite silly to claim that Finland isn't "pro-west" to use your terms. In some sense it might have even been better to be more "pro-east" in the short term, given how much some of the EU- imposed sanctions have hurt our trade with Russia, but as an independent nation we've actually been able to make the choice ourselves to align with the "pro-west". That appears to be something Russia seeks to stop Ukraine from doing. Edit: because this is the US-pol thread, lets add in some actual US-content that I came across today. The Trump Twitter ripoff apparently launched today and it appears to be going just as well as one would think. The tweet underneath is the beginning of a thread by an American professor in AI/Privacy and whose done some work on keeping up with the alt-righters and their social media presence. https://twitter.com/jengolbeck/status/1495779955560570881?s=20&t=iUbmrlKdWG8bXBxN4Tvv5A
I expect that Truth Social will become pretty big, though of course not many from "the left" are likely to join. We may see a divide between Twitter and truth social along ideological lines. Might not be the worst thing - political Twitter is currently an abominable hellscape in which partisans mindlessly sling sound bites and talking points at each other.
And of course many will paint TS as a national security threat, a platform on which people on the right engage in "unfettered conversations." Thank god for unfettered conversations.
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On February 22 2022 07:12 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 06:13 Oukka wrote:On February 22 2022 05:14 zeo wrote:On February 22 2022 04:17 Simberto wrote:On February 22 2022 04:01 maybenexttime wrote:
You're so thoroughly brainwashed. ;-) Yeah, it is quite impressive how you can look at Ukraine and get any impression except "Russia is fucking that country up". Ukraine hasn't "collapsed because of Euromaidan", it has a war being waged upon by Russia. Russia has at this point already annexed part of the country, turned another part into "independent" states with suspicious amounts of russian weapons, and is currently building up troops on the border again. If you are sad about the state of Ukraine, be angry at Putin. Without russian imperialistic bullshit the country would almost certainly still not be perfect, but way better off. The origin of all conflict inside the Ukraine currently is without a doubt Euromaidan. However much this fact might inconvenience your narrative, it doesn’t change what happened or why eight years later the Ukraine is in the position it is in. The act of a street mob overthrowing democratically elected judicial, legislative and executive authorities, authorities that half the country thought were better than the authorities the other half had in mind; was always going to end in a drastic manner. However much you are told you are right while holding a torch in a mob. Overthrowing democratically elected officials and installing unelected people with shady backgrounds hell bent on abusing their power to the detriment of a large part of the population (and for personal financial gain), will cause a reaction from that population. Would Crimea still be a part of Ukraine if there was no street mob overthrowing the government in Kiev? Yes it would. Would there be a war? No. Would everyone in Ukraine be better off acting like Finland and not do anything stupid like openly antagonizing a nuclear power next door? Yes, they would be doing much today without any pro-west or pro-east politicians profiting from selling out their country to foreign interests. Pro-all people living inside Ukraine is not such a radical idea. Ukraine and Finland are very different countries with very different relationships and histories with Russia and I find it very ignorant to claim that Ukraine could just act like Finland (or if someone vice versa asked us to act like Ukraine). Finland at most would be a geographical buffer zone with very little significance economically or culturally to modern Russia. Ukraine on the other hand has much more recent history of Russian rule and also happens to be a key gateway for transit of Russian goods (gas pipes come to mind at least) to Southern and Central Europe. You also likely know that Finland has freely decided to join the EU in 1995 and since then has also been slowly aligning itself with NATO, something Russia seems to oppose very much in Ukraine's case. It's quite silly to claim that Finland isn't "pro-west" to use your terms. In some sense it might have even been better to be more "pro-east" in the short term, given how much some of the EU- imposed sanctions have hurt our trade with Russia, but as an independent nation we've actually been able to make the choice ourselves to align with the "pro-west". That appears to be something Russia seeks to stop Ukraine from doing. Edit: because this is the US-pol thread, lets add in some actual US-content that I came across today. The Trump Twitter ripoff apparently launched today and it appears to be going just as well as one would think. The tweet underneath is the beginning of a thread by an American professor in AI/Privacy and whose done some work on keeping up with the alt-righters and their social media presence. https://twitter.com/jengolbeck/status/1495779955560570881?s=20&t=iUbmrlKdWG8bXBxN4Tvv5A I expect that Truth Social will become pretty big, though of course not many from "the left" are likely to join. We may see a divide between Twitter and truth social along ideological lines. Might not be the worst thing - political Twitter is currently an abominable hellscape in which partisans mindlessly sling sound bites and talking points at each other. And of course many will paint TS as a national security threat, a platform on which people on the right engage in "unfettered conversations." Thank god for unfettered conversations.
I honestly wouldn't even be mad/sad/whatever negative if Trump-totally-not-Twitter took off. At this point any even remotely significant competition in the social media field would be welcome. And the terms of service are quite clear about not allowing hateful conduct, racism, sexism etc on the platform so at least it's not intentionally setting out to be a cesspit of hatred, but we'll see how the moderation is (this bit is not unlike Facebooks and Twitters and whatnots).
In terms of Twitter/Trumpther divide, I doubt this would change anything. Political conversations might now be happening in a sphere in your own service rather in your own twittersphere, but the mudslinging and sound bites etc aren't going anywhere. Those are largely meant for one's own side anyways and I'd guess people will have a low barrier to creating an account on the other service to go yell in the replies. Also this all is obviously conditional on Trump's-they-don't-let-me-in-their-sandbox-so-I-bought-my-own not folding on itself within the first month or two.
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On February 22 2022 08:01 JimmiC wrote:
Anyone going to back track the whole Biden over reacting Putin just doing normal exercises stuff from a couple of days ago?
All the people who have been complaining about Biden's constant signaling about the Russian invasion are taking massive L's today.
Also twitter doesn't make any money as it is. Imagine how TS is suppose to function without even the advertisers that twitter can get. Its not going to go well at all and a lot of investors are going to get rug-pulled by the trumps.
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Russian Federation378 Posts
On February 22 2022 08:01 JimmiC wrote:
Anyone going to back track the whole Biden over reacting Putin just doing normal exercises stuff from a couple of days ago?
This is political games, why so naive? Wasn't it obvious that Putin trying to push his thoughts by showing balls?
Wasn't it obvious that Biden ignored his thoughts, but constantly declared that balls are heavy and pretty scary to all?
One wants to defend the "russian world", the other one doesn't understand what he is talking about.
Both guys are disgusting. This is typical house of cards. No one cares about people.
Until our countries has such term as "leader" we will suffer from those shitty events caused by non-compromised really no sense discussions about history and labeled people by religion/nationality/etc.
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Russian Federation378 Posts
On February 22 2022 08:44 JimmiC wrote:
It is actually really easy to point to the bad guy in this situation. It is Putin.
True. But.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Disclaimer: i do not suppot any politician's vision.
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On February 22 2022 08:44 JimmiC wrote:
It is actually really easy to point to the bad guy in this situation. It is Putin.
The trick is looking for the guy who's arming separatists in foreign nations.
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On February 22 2022 09:00 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 08:44 JimmiC wrote:
It is actually really easy to point to the bad guy in this situation. It is Putin. True. But. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Disclaimer: i do not suppot any politician's vision.
I don't support any politicians vision but I also don't think you should blame putin and biden doesn't know what he's talking about.
Yeah that's not the neutral stance you think it is bud.
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It was quite a shitty few years to end the show but there were some good moments we had.
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Russian Federation378 Posts
On February 22 2022 09:03 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 09:00 iFU.spx wrote:On February 22 2022 08:44 JimmiC wrote:
It is actually really easy to point to the bad guy in this situation. It is Putin. True. But. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Disclaimer: i do not suppot any politician's vision. I don't support any politicians vision but I also don't think you should blame putin and biden doesn't know what he's talking about. Yeah that's not the neutral stance you think it is bud.
I didn't say that putin or biden doesn't know what they talkng about, they pretty much does. I said that they both can't find compromise.
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Since Putin likes history so much, and Russian senior politicians' recent claims that they are "all for peace" and that they lost millions of people to fight nazis, they couldn't..possibly.. think of war.
Let me show you some examples how a country they name brotherly (my country, Bulgaria) was often attacked by Russians:
1877-1878 - Russians help free Bulgaria from the Ottomans, what a good act, right?
Except it wasn't for free:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Kolev_(general)#Balkan_Wars_(1912–1913)
Recently re-discovered national hero. Soviets erased him from history books (temporarily) because.. it's difficult to explain why he defended Bulgarian land against invading Russian forces.
- some earlier attempts by them to overthrow the government until their success in 1944
1944 - Soviet invasion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1944_Bulgarian_coup_d'état#In_brief
Definitely peace loving guys... Since fall of communism Russia has been sponsoring puppets here to protect Russia's interest, e.g. some going as far as saying that Crimea is "currently Russian" or simply "Russian". They still have indirect sponsorship of trolls here who say that EU is bad or NATO is bad to influence public opinion to make us leave. Russian leaders simply cannot be trusted, this country was never a true democracy. It was always an empire, kingdom or authoritarian and currently facade democracy. There lies the problem... I don't understand why it can't negotiate some peaceful co-existence with the west.
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On February 22 2022 09:24 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 09:03 Sermokala wrote:On February 22 2022 09:00 iFU.spx wrote:On February 22 2022 08:44 JimmiC wrote:
It is actually really easy to point to the bad guy in this situation. It is Putin. True. But. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Disclaimer: i do not suppot any politician's vision. I don't support any politicians vision but I also don't think you should blame putin and biden doesn't know what he's talking about. Yeah that's not the neutral stance you think it is bud. I didn't say that putin or biden doesn't know what they talkng about, they pretty much does. I said that they both can't find compromise. What is there to compromise? One is invading their neighbour, the other doesn't want them to.
There is no 'compromise' when 1 party is clearly in the wrong.
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EPT
