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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
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Netherlands22104 Posts
On December 30 2021 08:06 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2021 05:20 KwarK wrote:On December 30 2021 05:03 Doc.Rivers wrote:On December 30 2021 04:28 Erasme wrote:On December 30 2021 03:00 Doc.Rivers wrote:On December 30 2021 01:06 Sadist wrote:On December 29 2021 23:23 LegalLord wrote:On December 29 2021 18:45 Artisreal wrote:On December 29 2021 15:07 LegalLord wrote:On December 29 2021 14:58 Doc.Rivers wrote:
[quote]
Biden said that a warp speed vaccine was "not likely" to have gone through the requisite trials. In doing so, Biden expressed hesitancy about a warp speed vaccine. And Biden, and many other trump critics, were wrong about the feasible timing of the vaccine.
I think we all know that Biden (and his allied media) only doubted the feasibility of a warp speed vaccine in order to prevent trump from getting credit for a warp speed vaccine prior to the 2020 election. It's okay to admit that, on this one narrow issue, Biden was wrong and Trump was right.
I’ll definitely say that while what was said was “we have to be prudent and make sure we did our due diligence” it is not hard to come to the conclusion that the subtext was throwing shade at Trump and implying that he might have made bad vaccines. As it stands, Trump’s vaccine development and distribution was stellar, leaving Biden an easy time with making small changes and taking credit for a rollout that was already in motion by the time he took office. Whether it was throwing shade or just a standard statement of prudence is going to depend most highly on how charitable you are inclined to be. On December 29 2021 15:03 plasmidghost wrote:
Thought about it some more and I think I'm done with US politics as a whole. We're going to die in any number of ways soon, whether that be Covid or climate change, and the Dems and GOP will not do anything to stop it. Knowing that brings me some solace, as I won't have to be constantly stressed and depressed by every level of government in this country. Do yourself a favor and take a break from politics at least. However bad things may or may not be, it isn’t worth losing your sanity over to think about it all the time. how is the US record of vaccination anything but laughable with a paltry 61% vaccination rate? neither Trum nor Biden have managed to get it on a level comparable with other developed countries. And that is attributable to partisan division clearly sowed by Trump. Btw what did Trump do but to mostly trivialise covid 19 and throw money at moderna? Whose technology (mrna) by the by has been funded for many administration and has like zero to do with any current president / government. The antivax issue was a nonissue at the time of Trump’s presidency, when they had the opposite problem: not enough vaccines to go around. He funded development, and got production ramped up with the quickness. Biden disingenuously took credit for something like taking the numbers from 500k doses/day to 1 million, but Trump got to that 500k point from zero with some very rapid growth. Yes, some significant luck was involved in that a fly-by-night startup like Moderna that was US-based managed to have one of the big successful vaccines, but he threw money at all of them and got good priority on domestic vaccine availability in return. Definitely did better on availability than the EU, what with European factories sending all their good abroad before servicing local markets. No doubt he would have failed to address the antivax problem when it became relevant if he had gotten re-elected. Biden certainly failed, and Trump’s attempts to say “get vaccinated” have done poorly. But you must have forgot that before antivax, we had to deal with availability in the first place. Trump succeeded there and Biden rode on the coattails of that, right after the whole “we can’t trust the Trump vaccine until the science people say we can” quip. I think people are forgetting that there was a very real fear that trump would pressure for approvals for an unsafe vaccine if it helped him get re-elected. He wouldn't care if it hurt people or was ineffective as long as it helped him out because he is a sociopath and a narcissist. The democrats did not start this antivax bullshit. We were dealing with a very real threat to our democracy at the time, as can be seen from the Jan 6th insurrection. It was prudent to be skeptical until it was backed by respected authorities. Very real fears are not necessarily well founded fears. Biden and the rest of Trump’s critics should not have expressed hesitancy towards a warp speed vaccine at such a critical time. But that's politics. The Jan 6th stuff is irrelevant, as it only came later. Believing the word of an insane liar who has promotes "demon sperm" doctor sounds like a really dumb mistake. The democrats stated that they would not believe trump, but would believe the word of the FDA and other institutions. I don't think the belief that trump might manage to get the institutions to approve a vaccine before it was proven safe was a credible belief. I think it was just more of the reflexive opposition to trump that we frequently saw. And it was during trumps re-election campaign (in fact very close to the election), further raising a presumption of purely political motives. Ultimately all I'm saying is that on one narrow issue, Trump was right and his critics were wrong. Which, given our partisan politics, is very difficult for Trump’s opposition to ever admit. Even a broken clock is right twice a day  . Trump very publicly pressured every branch of government to help his personal political causes. From the DoJ harassing his political opponents to the DoS tying aid to investigating Biden to the DoD making tactical decisions for his benefit. At one point he made the national weather service claim a hurricane went to another state in order to not contradict him. The idea that he would be above instructing the FDA to perform his bidding is nonsense. Trump viewed every part of government as there to serve him rather than the American people. He constantly attempted to compel every department to serve his political needs. Well you've provided a bunch of examples of trump completely failing to bend the agencies to his will. That actually undercuts your argument. I don't think the DOJ harassed his political opponents, to the contrary the DOJ investigated whether he was compromised by Russia. Trump was impeached for pressuring DOS to withhold aid from Ukraine. The agencies have some independence from the president (by law), and people know that. In any case, people knew that the FDA and public health professionals would be publicly commenting on the efficacy of the vaccines. And people knew that the trump admin leaked like a sieve. It is also curious that the concerns about the vaccine being overly rushed disappeared after the election: Because it wasn't the election that took those concerns away but basically unanimous consent from experts across the globe that the vaccines were safe?
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Its almost like after the experts signed off on the vaccine being safe that the democrats worry about the vaccine being rushed out before the experts signed off on the vaccine being safe just disappeared.
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The Republican party is paying for Trump's $1.6 million legal fees in the state of New York. It would be hilarious how this party has so come under the heel of this ridiculous grifter if it weren't so scary and sad.
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Northern Ireland26294 Posts
On December 30 2021 05:28 Husyelt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 30 2021 03:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2021 01:56 Husyelt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 29 2021 19:52 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2021 12:05 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On December 29 2021 10:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2021 10:34 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On December 29 2021 03:28 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2021 02:58 Starlightsun wrote:
I'm much more worried about congress than the next presidency. If the Republicans sweep congress then they will sabotage anything from being done for 2 years and then most likely ride that to presidential victory as well. Competitive races continue to disappear due to gerrymandering, and Trump seems quite interested in primarying Republicans who don't toe the line. So we might see not only Republican control of government again but an increasing number of Trump style politicians. Were moving to a place where Trump is the Moderate Republican. He at least is pro vaccination. The out there Republicans now are full QaNon crazy (or at least playing that to the public). RE: operation warp speed Of course he's pro vaccination, it's something he worked to push into existence before his next run for office. I can't really stick up for qanon because it's dumb from start to finish, and as a conspiracy connoisseur it sucks to see the most dismissable ideas being brought to the public eye. Still funny though. Never stopped being funny. Was he? Because it was months and months after when he admitted he had been vaccinated and then again a long time after he got his booster and his own fans boo'd him because they were surprised to find out. And many of his media supporters are apoligizing for him about it. Publically and privately he had been asked to suoport it but refused. Yes he pushed it, and it had a cacthy name but it was not very well organized or funded pre biden. Despite his involvement in spurring their development via Operation Warp Speed, Trump largely downplayed vaccines during his final months in office, and both Trump and First Lady Melania Trump received the vaccine in private before Joe Biden took office as the new president in January 2021 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_the_United_StatesAnd QaNon is not funny, a shocking number of americans believe part or all of it including 40 Republicans in office. Yeah, he downplayed it to his crowd, that's because he was trying to get re-elected. I honestly don't know of the logistics of getting the vaccines out during the Trump vs Biden times, so I'll take your word that Biden is being more efficient. I just found it relevant to point out that he sort of was a part of pushing through the vaccines that you see him supporting as a saving grace for him. And as far as Qanon goes, that's just a matter of perspective, man. You're telling me that a shocking number of Americans are dumb as shit, and 40 Republicans are playing to their audience? I can't help but be tickled a bit when someone remarks on how much of a problem it is. You do realize that the Nazis literally used such wild conspiracy theories as a springboard to power and then the Holocaust happened? I'm not being hyperbolic here. A large segment of the voters and politicians being completely detached from reality can be extremely dangerous. the good thing about QAnon followers is that they follow classic conspiracy patterns and will quickly move to whatever the new shiny thing is. They hold no true beliefs. Nazis convinced the moderates in the population to fear ridiculous things. But that happened over a long period. QAnon is fickle and is a nothing burger It’s a nothing burger until it isn’t. They do have beliefs, they’re just not particularly comprehensible to an outside viewer, and unlike other conspiracists there’s a considerable bleed through into real world politics and identity. Which makes it a distinct phenomenon from your flat Earth/moon landing types. I’d argue a storming of the Capitol alone is probably reason to not dismiss these folks, and this is assuming there isn’t further escalation in the future. There’s a considerable amount of people who haven’t gone fully mental and are merely Q-adjacent as well to factor in. There’s a multitude of lessons to be learned from Nazism, I feel people can be a tad reductive in putting it down to one or two things. One clear lesson is both the appetite and the capability of moderates to rein in oppressive regimes can be a tad exaggerated. @Wombat That’s fair, I forgot there was a sizable amount of rioters and bystanders at the Jan6 events that were QAnon conspiracists. However, the capitol riot was clearly dangerous due to the mob mentality and size, not the fervor of the belief before... Now, if one of these JFK returning or Elvis resurrection events turns into a bloodbath, I might change my mind. Jan6 was more Trumpers spilling their seed rather than devout QAnon beliefs. Because, as I have said, their beliefs are flimsy and change by the week. They’ll turn against Trump with his recent pro Vax stance anyways
To clarify, as my last post was pretty bad.
They have very strong core beliefs, how this manifests is not remotely consistent, which gives the outside impression that they don’t have strong core values and beliefs
The crude summation of that central core is there’s an idealised version of a great American that coincidentally people who have the same values and look like them do well, and the only reason this isn’t the case is via the scheming of shadowy elites.
From there the sands shift depending on circumstance. Trump superficially tapped into this current. The Constitution is a sacred bulwark against things they don’t like, until it isn’t and they decide to assault the Capitol, etc etc. Trump can lose support merely by getting a vaccine showcases how he’s more a vessel that rode the wave than the force driving it. Because suddenly he’s one of those ‘elites’, despite like, obviously being one for decades.
QAnon is merely a crazier subset of some more widespread craziness.
If we had a less toxic political climate and this Q bollocks was some niche isolated thing, it very much would be the kind of thing we could all snigger at and dismiss, like the bloke wandering around naked wearing a sign saying ‘the end is nigh’ or whatever, but they’re the thin edge of a much larger wedge.
The flimsiness of the specifics of their beliefs isn’t a good thing that defangs this collective, it makes them more dangerous because they have fewer red lines they won’t cross.
A more traditional conservative isn’t storming the Capitol, because well that’s an act of aggression against American values and the Constitution and democracy itself, things which many conservatives actually value rather than as a weapon of convenience.
I think the stage is fully set for more political violence and people are a tad naive on quite how potentially fucked things are, but it likely won’t occur solely because the GOP will do well in this electoral cycle and a second Trump term seems extremely plausible.
Not exactly a desirable state of affairs, if I said I was a great parent because my kid behaves himself as I always let him do what he wants or otherwise he’d throw a tantrum I’d not be up for parent of the year.
The Capitol already happened, with little real consequences, figures associated with it are if anything more popular and visible than before. If there had been a collective soul searching across the aisle I could have seen that as the requisite shock that lessened the chance of more future violence but that hasn’t really happened.
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On December 29 2021 23:23 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2021 18:45 Artisreal wrote:On December 29 2021 15:07 LegalLord wrote:On December 29 2021 14:58 Doc.Rivers wrote:On December 29 2021 14:31 KwarK wrote:On December 29 2021 14:18 Doc.Rivers wrote:On December 29 2021 13:25 KwarK wrote:On December 29 2021 12:30 Doc.Rivers wrote:On December 29 2021 10:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2021 10:34 NrG.Bamboo wrote:
[quote]
RE: operation warp speed
Of course he's pro vaccination, it's something he worked to push into existence before his next run for office. I can't really stick up for qanon because it's dumb from start to finish, and as a conspiracy connoisseur it sucks to see the most dismissable ideas being brought to the public eye. Still funny though. Never stopped being funny. Was he? Because it was months and months after when he admitted he had been vaccinated and then again a long time after he got his booster and his own fans boo'd him because they were surprised to find out. And many of his media supporters are apoligizing for him about it. Publically and privately he had been asked to suoport it but refused. Yes he pushed it, and it had a cacthy name but it was not very well organized or funded pre biden. Despite his involvement in spurring their development via Operation Warp Speed, Trump largely downplayed vaccines during his final months in office, and both Trump and First Lady Melania Trump received the vaccine in private before Joe Biden took office as the new president in January 2021 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_the_United_StatesAnd QaNon is not funny, a shocking number of americans believe part or all of it including 40 Republicans in office. Now that Trump is out of office, the press and others are willing to at least give him credit where it's due ("broken clock is right twice a day" type of thing). The facts show that trump has promoted the covid vaccine from the start. By any measure of what a president gets credit for, trump deserves credit for operation warp speed and the vaccines. (Which is funny because, prior to the 2020 election, dems and their allied media were united in expressing hesitancy towards any vaccine approved on an accelerated schedule during the trump admin. But that's politics - sometimes you've gotta express vaccine hesitancy during a global pandemic in order to defeat the other political party.) For someone confidently declaring what the facts show you’ve included very few facts. You’re most likely repeating the falsehoods from a YouTube video debunked here. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/23/tiktok-posts/biden-harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/Basically Biden said he wouldn’t take medical advice from Trump but would absolutely take it from the experts. There are many examples of trump promoting the vaccines. Here is one: https://youtu.be/70OZXq56MegThat politifact article is a good case study in the potential for fact checkers to be politically biased. It says "Biden and Harris were raising questions not about the vaccines themselves, but about then-President Donald Trump’s rollout of the vaccines and the risk that the effort would become rushed or politicized." But Biden said, even according to that same article, "People don’t believe that [Trump is] telling the truth, therefore they’re not at all certain they’re going to take the vaccine. And one more thing: If and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests that need to be done, and the trials that are needed to be done." Clearly, Biden was raising questions about the vaccine itself, contrary to the politifact author's argument. I didn’t say that Trump didn’t promote the vaccine so I don’t know why you’re bringing up that he did. Biden was clearly suggesting that a politically motivated rush to roll the vaccine out ahead of schedule before trials were complete would raise questions about safety, especially given the context of Trump’s post-truth administration. Vaccines are safe because of how extensively they are tested. That’s why they’re so safe. Biden said that a warp speed vaccine was "not likely" to have gone through the requisite trials. In doing so, Biden expressed hesitancy about a warp speed vaccine. And Biden, and many other trump critics, were wrong about the feasible timing of the vaccine. I think we all know that Biden (and his allied media) only doubted the feasibility of a warp speed vaccine in order to prevent trump from getting credit for a warp speed vaccine prior to the 2020 election. It's okay to admit that, on this one narrow issue, Biden was wrong and Trump was right. I’ll definitely say that while what was said was “we have to be prudent and make sure we did our due diligence” it is not hard to come to the conclusion that the subtext was throwing shade at Trump and implying that he might have made bad vaccines. As it stands, Trump’s vaccine development and distribution was stellar, leaving Biden an easy time with making small changes and taking credit for a rollout that was already in motion by the time he took office. Whether it was throwing shade or just a standard statement of prudence is going to depend most highly on how charitable you are inclined to be. On December 29 2021 15:03 plasmidghost wrote:
Thought about it some more and I think I'm done with US politics as a whole. We're going to die in any number of ways soon, whether that be Covid or climate change, and the Dems and GOP will not do anything to stop it. Knowing that brings me some solace, as I won't have to be constantly stressed and depressed by every level of government in this country. Do yourself a favor and take a break from politics at least. However bad things may or may not be, it isn’t worth losing your sanity over to think about it all the time. how is the US record of vaccination anything but laughable with a paltry 61% vaccination rate? neither Trum nor Biden have managed to get it on a level comparable with other developed countries. And that is attributable to partisan division clearly sowed by Trump. Btw what did Trump do but to mostly trivialise covid 19 and throw money at moderna? Whose technology (mrna) by the by has been funded for many administration and has like zero to do with any current president / government. The antivax issue was a nonissue at the time of Trump’s presidency, when they had the opposite problem: not enough vaccines to go around. He funded development, and got production ramped up with the quickness. Biden disingenuously took credit for something like taking the numbers from 500k doses/day to 1 million, but Trump got to that 500k point from zero with some very rapid growth. Yes, some significant luck was involved in that a fly-by-night startup like Moderna that was US-based managed to have one of the big successful vaccines, but he threw money at all of them and got good priority on domestic vaccine availability in return. Definitely did better on availability than the EU, what with European factories sending all their good abroad before servicing local markets. No doubt he would have failed to address the antivax problem when it became relevant if he had gotten re-elected. Biden certainly failed, and Trump’s attempts to say “get vaccinated” have done poorly. But you must have forgot that before antivax, we had to deal with availability in the first place. Trump succeeded there and Biden rode on the coattails of that, right after the whole “we can’t trust the Trump vaccine until the science people say we can” quip.
Everyone threw money at vaccine makers to develop one.
Everyone who threw money at the manufacturers once they were ready-ish got the vaccine fastest. See Israel.
EU etc. paid like a 3rd or so per dose because of longer negotiations. Was that smart? I don't think so as the extra costs are negligible compared to even a weeks worth of lockdown / furlough.
Was there anything he did do that others didn't?
And who knows whether the States were in part to blame for low figures during the rest of his presidency.
The EU not being restrictive on exports is a lucky streak for the US and UK in that context.
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On December 30 2021 22:41 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2021 23:23 LegalLord wrote:On December 29 2021 18:45 Artisreal wrote:On December 29 2021 15:07 LegalLord wrote:On December 29 2021 14:58 Doc.Rivers wrote:On December 29 2021 14:31 KwarK wrote:On December 29 2021 14:18 Doc.Rivers wrote:On December 29 2021 13:25 KwarK wrote:On December 29 2021 12:30 Doc.Rivers wrote:On December 29 2021 10:58 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Was he? Because it was months and months after when he admitted he had been vaccinated and then again a long time after he got his booster and his own fans boo'd him because they were surprised to find out. And many of his media supporters are apoligizing for him about it. Publically and privately he had been asked to suoport it but refused. Yes he pushed it, and it had a cacthy name but it was not very well organized or funded pre biden. [quote] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_the_United_StatesAnd QaNon is not funny, a shocking number of americans believe part or all of it including 40 Republicans in office. Now that Trump is out of office, the press and others are willing to at least give him credit where it's due ("broken clock is right twice a day" type of thing). The facts show that trump has promoted the covid vaccine from the start. By any measure of what a president gets credit for, trump deserves credit for operation warp speed and the vaccines. (Which is funny because, prior to the 2020 election, dems and their allied media were united in expressing hesitancy towards any vaccine approved on an accelerated schedule during the trump admin. But that's politics - sometimes you've gotta express vaccine hesitancy during a global pandemic in order to defeat the other political party.) For someone confidently declaring what the facts show you’ve included very few facts. You’re most likely repeating the falsehoods from a YouTube video debunked here. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/23/tiktok-posts/biden-harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/Basically Biden said he wouldn’t take medical advice from Trump but would absolutely take it from the experts. There are many examples of trump promoting the vaccines. Here is one: https://youtu.be/70OZXq56MegThat politifact article is a good case study in the potential for fact checkers to be politically biased. It says "Biden and Harris were raising questions not about the vaccines themselves, but about then-President Donald Trump’s rollout of the vaccines and the risk that the effort would become rushed or politicized." But Biden said, even according to that same article, "People don’t believe that [Trump is] telling the truth, therefore they’re not at all certain they’re going to take the vaccine. And one more thing: If and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests that need to be done, and the trials that are needed to be done." Clearly, Biden was raising questions about the vaccine itself, contrary to the politifact author's argument. I didn’t say that Trump didn’t promote the vaccine so I don’t know why you’re bringing up that he did. Biden was clearly suggesting that a politically motivated rush to roll the vaccine out ahead of schedule before trials were complete would raise questions about safety, especially given the context of Trump’s post-truth administration. Vaccines are safe because of how extensively they are tested. That’s why they’re so safe. Biden said that a warp speed vaccine was "not likely" to have gone through the requisite trials. In doing so, Biden expressed hesitancy about a warp speed vaccine. And Biden, and many other trump critics, were wrong about the feasible timing of the vaccine. I think we all know that Biden (and his allied media) only doubted the feasibility of a warp speed vaccine in order to prevent trump from getting credit for a warp speed vaccine prior to the 2020 election. It's okay to admit that, on this one narrow issue, Biden was wrong and Trump was right. I’ll definitely say that while what was said was “we have to be prudent and make sure we did our due diligence” it is not hard to come to the conclusion that the subtext was throwing shade at Trump and implying that he might have made bad vaccines. As it stands, Trump’s vaccine development and distribution was stellar, leaving Biden an easy time with making small changes and taking credit for a rollout that was already in motion by the time he took office. Whether it was throwing shade or just a standard statement of prudence is going to depend most highly on how charitable you are inclined to be. On December 29 2021 15:03 plasmidghost wrote:
Thought about it some more and I think I'm done with US politics as a whole. We're going to die in any number of ways soon, whether that be Covid or climate change, and the Dems and GOP will not do anything to stop it. Knowing that brings me some solace, as I won't have to be constantly stressed and depressed by every level of government in this country. Do yourself a favor and take a break from politics at least. However bad things may or may not be, it isn’t worth losing your sanity over to think about it all the time. how is the US record of vaccination anything but laughable with a paltry 61% vaccination rate? neither Trum nor Biden have managed to get it on a level comparable with other developed countries. And that is attributable to partisan division clearly sowed by Trump. Btw what did Trump do but to mostly trivialise covid 19 and throw money at moderna? Whose technology (mrna) by the by has been funded for many administration and has like zero to do with any current president / government. The antivax issue was a nonissue at the time of Trump’s presidency, when they had the opposite problem: not enough vaccines to go around. He funded development, and got production ramped up with the quickness. Biden disingenuously took credit for something like taking the numbers from 500k doses/day to 1 million, but Trump got to that 500k point from zero with some very rapid growth. Yes, some significant luck was involved in that a fly-by-night startup like Moderna that was US-based managed to have one of the big successful vaccines, but he threw money at all of them and got good priority on domestic vaccine availability in return. Definitely did better on availability than the EU, what with European factories sending all their good abroad before servicing local markets. No doubt he would have failed to address the antivax problem when it became relevant if he had gotten re-elected. Biden certainly failed, and Trump’s attempts to say “get vaccinated” have done poorly. But you must have forgot that before antivax, we had to deal with availability in the first place. Trump succeeded there and Biden rode on the coattails of that, right after the whole “we can’t trust the Trump vaccine until the science people say we can” quip. Everyone threw money at vaccine makers to develop one. Everyone who threw money at the manufacturers once they were ready-ish got the vaccine fastest. See Israel. EU etc. paid like a 3rd or so per dose because of longer negotiations. Was that smart? I don't think so as the extra costs are negligible compared to even a weeks worth of lockdown / furlough. Was there anything he did do that others didn't? And who knows whether the States were in part to blame for low figures during the rest of his presidency. The EU not being restrictive on exports is a lucky streak for the US and UK in that context.
The Israel approach wouldn’t scale to a country as big as the US. You need to in-source production to a very large extent.
No, that’s not quite “a stroke of brilliance” from Trump or his administration. Yes, it required some decent allocation of luck (e.g. a silly startup like Moderna being one of the ones that succeeded at making a generally viable vaccine and being US-based). But few other large countries succeeded as well as Trump’s admin did, and it involved making the right choice to pay above the odds and spread money around to a large number of potential vaccine developers in exchange for US-favorable concessions. UK did alright (sucks that AstraZeneca didn’t manage to live up to the hype, but they at least vaccinated everyone), EU dropped the ball in initial rollout (if there was a time to start doing export controls, this was it), and everyone else either used different vaccines or had to figure out a strategy for buying what they aren’t capable of producing.
Granted, Trump failed at many other aspects of pandemic management, and would have certainly failed at handling antivax if he were in charge when it became relevant. But credit where credit is due: by some combination of forward planning and luck, he did the vaccine development thing pretty well.
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On December 30 2021 22:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2021 05:28 Husyelt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 30 2021 03:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2021 01:56 Husyelt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 29 2021 19:52 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2021 12:05 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On December 29 2021 10:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2021 10:34 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On December 29 2021 03:28 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2021 02:58 Starlightsun wrote:
I'm much more worried about congress than the next presidency. If the Republicans sweep congress then they will sabotage anything from being done for 2 years and then most likely ride that to presidential victory as well. Competitive races continue to disappear due to gerrymandering, and Trump seems quite interested in primarying Republicans who don't toe the line. So we might see not only Republican control of government again but an increasing number of Trump style politicians. Were moving to a place where Trump is the Moderate Republican. He at least is pro vaccination. The out there Republicans now are full QaNon crazy (or at least playing that to the public). RE: operation warp speed Of course he's pro vaccination, it's something he worked to push into existence before his next run for office. I can't really stick up for qanon because it's dumb from start to finish, and as a conspiracy connoisseur it sucks to see the most dismissable ideas being brought to the public eye. Still funny though. Never stopped being funny. Was he? Because it was months and months after when he admitted he had been vaccinated and then again a long time after he got his booster and his own fans boo'd him because they were surprised to find out. And many of his media supporters are apoligizing for him about it. Publically and privately he had been asked to suoport it but refused. Yes he pushed it, and it had a cacthy name but it was not very well organized or funded pre biden. Despite his involvement in spurring their development via Operation Warp Speed, Trump largely downplayed vaccines during his final months in office, and both Trump and First Lady Melania Trump received the vaccine in private before Joe Biden took office as the new president in January 2021 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_the_United_StatesAnd QaNon is not funny, a shocking number of americans believe part or all of it including 40 Republicans in office. Yeah, he downplayed it to his crowd, that's because he was trying to get re-elected. I honestly don't know of the logistics of getting the vaccines out during the Trump vs Biden times, so I'll take your word that Biden is being more efficient. I just found it relevant to point out that he sort of was a part of pushing through the vaccines that you see him supporting as a saving grace for him. And as far as Qanon goes, that's just a matter of perspective, man. You're telling me that a shocking number of Americans are dumb as shit, and 40 Republicans are playing to their audience? I can't help but be tickled a bit when someone remarks on how much of a problem it is. You do realize that the Nazis literally used such wild conspiracy theories as a springboard to power and then the Holocaust happened? I'm not being hyperbolic here. A large segment of the voters and politicians being completely detached from reality can be extremely dangerous. the good thing about QAnon followers is that they follow classic conspiracy patterns and will quickly move to whatever the new shiny thing is. They hold no true beliefs. Nazis convinced the moderates in the population to fear ridiculous things. But that happened over a long period. QAnon is fickle and is a nothing burger It’s a nothing burger until it isn’t. They do have beliefs, they’re just not particularly comprehensible to an outside viewer, and unlike other conspiracists there’s a considerable bleed through into real world politics and identity. Which makes it a distinct phenomenon from your flat Earth/moon landing types. I’d argue a storming of the Capitol alone is probably reason to not dismiss these folks, and this is assuming there isn’t further escalation in the future. There’s a considerable amount of people who haven’t gone fully mental and are merely Q-adjacent as well to factor in. There’s a multitude of lessons to be learned from Nazism, I feel people can be a tad reductive in putting it down to one or two things. One clear lesson is both the appetite and the capability of moderates to rein in oppressive regimes can be a tad exaggerated. @Wombat That’s fair, I forgot there was a sizable amount of rioters and bystanders at the Jan6 events that were QAnon conspiracists. However, the capitol riot was clearly dangerous due to the mob mentality and size, not the fervor of the belief before... Now, if one of these JFK returning or Elvis resurrection events turns into a bloodbath, I might change my mind. Jan6 was more Trumpers spilling their seed rather than devout QAnon beliefs. Because, as I have said, their beliefs are flimsy and change by the week. They’ll turn against Trump with his recent pro Vax stance anyways To clarify, as my last post was pretty bad. They have very strong core beliefs, how this manifests is not remotely consistent, which gives the outside impression that they don’t have strong core values and beliefs The crude summation of that central core is there’s an idealised version of a great American that coincidentally people who have the same values and look like them do well, and the only reason this isn’t the case is via the scheming of shadowy elites. From there the sands shift depending on circumstance. Trump superficially tapped into this current. The Constitution is a sacred bulwark against things they don’t like, until it isn’t and they decide to assault the Capitol, etc etc. Trump can lose support merely by getting a vaccine showcases how he’s more a vessel that rode the wave than the force driving it. Because suddenly he’s one of those ‘elites’, despite like, obviously being one for decades. QAnon is merely a crazier subset of some more widespread craziness. If we had a less toxic political climate and this Q bollocks was some niche isolated thing, it very much would be the kind of thing we could all snigger at and dismiss, like the bloke wandering around naked wearing a sign saying ‘the end is nigh’ or whatever, but they’re the thin edge of a much larger wedge. The flimsiness of the specifics of their beliefs isn’t a good thing that defangs this collective, it makes them more dangerous because they have fewer red lines they won’t cross. A more traditional conservative isn’t storming the Capitol, because well that’s an act of aggression against American values and the Constitution and democracy itself, things which many conservatives actually value rather than as a weapon of convenience. I think the stage is fully set for more political violence and people are a tad naive on quite how potentially fucked things are, but it likely won’t occur solely because the GOP will do well in this electoral cycle and a second Trump term seems extremely plausible. Not exactly a desirable state of affairs, if I said I was a great parent because my kid behaves himself as I always let him do what he wants or otherwise he’d throw a tantrum I’d not be up for parent of the year. The Capitol already happened, with little real consequences, figures associated with it are if anything more popular and visible than before. If there had been a collective soul searching across the aisle I could have seen that as the requisite shock that lessened the chance of more future violence but that hasn’t really happened.
There are some real consequences, hundreds of people will face some time. I will admit being deflated that the republicans didn’t get pounded* into the ground politically from not just Jan6, but for weeks of not clamping down Trumps “stolen election” rhetoric.
I think we see very differently on the QAnon stuff. It’s flimsy, Jan6 was Trumps Weeks of buildup, not QAnon, because QAnon doesn’t exist in any directed way.
I also see a deescalation in violence or hate going forward.
Trump has very little chance to retake the reigns of the Republican Party. It’s Desantis or Haley or Rubio. And it’s not just his policy or rhetoric complaints, moderate conservatives got sick of the media hype and noise. If there’s one silver lining it’s that.
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Is anyone else bothered by the CDC reducing isolation guidelines while infections in the US hit record highs?
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I mean yeah but its pretty on brand for America. Let people die rather then reduce the profits of corporations slightly.
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On January 01 2022 00:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Is anyone else bothered by the CDC reducing isolation guidelines while infections in the US hit record highs?
Fauci is a bureaucrat 1st, 2nd 3rd and a scientist maybe 4th. Unless you lick the boots of capitalism, you’ll never make it into a position like his.
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A poll of a thousand people where some might vote on a whim or click away at some button isn’t a good barometer for actual beliefs or violence. So far we have had one event that ended in violence, and most republicans that I know were ashamed of that moment. Don’t believe the hype
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United States24755 Posts
Your counter to that questionable poll is a survey of most republicans that you know? I feel like I should believe neither that poll nor you at this point.
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On January 01 2022 02:34 Husyelt wrote:A poll of a thousand people where some might vote on a whim or click away at some button isn’t a good barometer for actual beliefs or violence. So far we have had one event that ended in violence, and most republicans that I know were ashamed of that moment. Don’t believe the hype
Depending on where you live, republicans you know may differ greatly from like 90% of Alabama for example
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Northern Ireland26294 Posts
On December 31 2021 07:07 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2021 22:40 WombaT wrote:On December 30 2021 05:28 Husyelt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 30 2021 03:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2021 01:56 Husyelt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 29 2021 19:52 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2021 12:05 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On December 29 2021 10:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2021 10:34 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On December 29 2021 03:28 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2021 02:58 Starlightsun wrote:
I'm much more worried about congress than the next presidency. If the Republicans sweep congress then they will sabotage anything from being done for 2 years and then most likely ride that to presidential victory as well. Competitive races continue to disappear due to gerrymandering, and Trump seems quite interested in primarying Republicans who don't toe the line. So we might see not only Republican control of government again but an increasing number of Trump style politicians. Were moving to a place where Trump is the Moderate Republican. He at least is pro vaccination. The out there Republicans now are full QaNon crazy (or at least playing that to the public). RE: operation warp speed Of course he's pro vaccination, it's something he worked to push into existence before his next run for office. I can't really stick up for qanon because it's dumb from start to finish, and as a conspiracy connoisseur it sucks to see the most dismissable ideas being brought to the public eye. Still funny though. Never stopped being funny. Was he? Because it was months and months after when he admitted he had been vaccinated and then again a long time after he got his booster and his own fans boo'd him because they were surprised to find out. And many of his media supporters are apoligizing for him about it. Publically and privately he had been asked to suoport it but refused. Yes he pushed it, and it had a cacthy name but it was not very well organized or funded pre biden. Despite his involvement in spurring their development via Operation Warp Speed, Trump largely downplayed vaccines during his final months in office, and both Trump and First Lady Melania Trump received the vaccine in private before Joe Biden took office as the new president in January 2021 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_the_United_StatesAnd QaNon is not funny, a shocking number of americans believe part or all of it including 40 Republicans in office. Yeah, he downplayed it to his crowd, that's because he was trying to get re-elected. I honestly don't know of the logistics of getting the vaccines out during the Trump vs Biden times, so I'll take your word that Biden is being more efficient. I just found it relevant to point out that he sort of was a part of pushing through the vaccines that you see him supporting as a saving grace for him. And as far as Qanon goes, that's just a matter of perspective, man. You're telling me that a shocking number of Americans are dumb as shit, and 40 Republicans are playing to their audience? I can't help but be tickled a bit when someone remarks on how much of a problem it is. You do realize that the Nazis literally used such wild conspiracy theories as a springboard to power and then the Holocaust happened? I'm not being hyperbolic here. A large segment of the voters and politicians being completely detached from reality can be extremely dangerous. the good thing about QAnon followers is that they follow classic conspiracy patterns and will quickly move to whatever the new shiny thing is. They hold no true beliefs. Nazis convinced the moderates in the population to fear ridiculous things. But that happened over a long period. QAnon is fickle and is a nothing burger It’s a nothing burger until it isn’t. They do have beliefs, they’re just not particularly comprehensible to an outside viewer, and unlike other conspiracists there’s a considerable bleed through into real world politics and identity. Which makes it a distinct phenomenon from your flat Earth/moon landing types. I’d argue a storming of the Capitol alone is probably reason to not dismiss these folks, and this is assuming there isn’t further escalation in the future. There’s a considerable amount of people who haven’t gone fully mental and are merely Q-adjacent as well to factor in. There’s a multitude of lessons to be learned from Nazism, I feel people can be a tad reductive in putting it down to one or two things. One clear lesson is both the appetite and the capability of moderates to rein in oppressive regimes can be a tad exaggerated. @Wombat That’s fair, I forgot there was a sizable amount of rioters and bystanders at the Jan6 events that were QAnon conspiracists. However, the capitol riot was clearly dangerous due to the mob mentality and size, not the fervor of the belief before... Now, if one of these JFK returning or Elvis resurrection events turns into a bloodbath, I might change my mind. Jan6 was more Trumpers spilling their seed rather than devout QAnon beliefs. Because, as I have said, their beliefs are flimsy and change by the week. They’ll turn against Trump with his recent pro Vax stance anyways To clarify, as my last post was pretty bad. They have very strong core beliefs, how this manifests is not remotely consistent, which gives the outside impression that they don’t have strong core values and beliefs The crude summation of that central core is there’s an idealised version of a great American that coincidentally people who have the same values and look like them do well, and the only reason this isn’t the case is via the scheming of shadowy elites. From there the sands shift depending on circumstance. Trump superficially tapped into this current. The Constitution is a sacred bulwark against things they don’t like, until it isn’t and they decide to assault the Capitol, etc etc. Trump can lose support merely by getting a vaccine showcases how he’s more a vessel that rode the wave than the force driving it. Because suddenly he’s one of those ‘elites’, despite like, obviously being one for decades. QAnon is merely a crazier subset of some more widespread craziness. If we had a less toxic political climate and this Q bollocks was some niche isolated thing, it very much would be the kind of thing we could all snigger at and dismiss, like the bloke wandering around naked wearing a sign saying ‘the end is nigh’ or whatever, but they’re the thin edge of a much larger wedge. The flimsiness of the specifics of their beliefs isn’t a good thing that defangs this collective, it makes them more dangerous because they have fewer red lines they won’t cross. A more traditional conservative isn’t storming the Capitol, because well that’s an act of aggression against American values and the Constitution and democracy itself, things which many conservatives actually value rather than as a weapon of convenience. I think the stage is fully set for more political violence and people are a tad naive on quite how potentially fucked things are, but it likely won’t occur solely because the GOP will do well in this electoral cycle and a second Trump term seems extremely plausible. Not exactly a desirable state of affairs, if I said I was a great parent because my kid behaves himself as I always let him do what he wants or otherwise he’d throw a tantrum I’d not be up for parent of the year. The Capitol already happened, with little real consequences, figures associated with it are if anything more popular and visible than before. If there had been a collective soul searching across the aisle I could have seen that as the requisite shock that lessened the chance of more future violence but that hasn’t really happened. There are some real consequences, hundreds of people will face some time. I will admit being deflated that the republicans didn’t get pounded* into the ground politically from not just Jan6, but for weeks of not clamping down Trumps “stolen election” rhetoric. I think we see very differently on the QAnon stuff. It’s flimsy, Jan6 was Trumps Weeks of buildup, not QAnon, because QAnon doesn’t exist in any directed way. I also see a deescalation in violence or hate going forward. Trump has very little chance to retake the reigns of the Republican Party. It’s Desantis or Haley or Rubio. And it’s not just his policy or rhetoric complaints, moderate conservatives got sick of the media hype and noise. If there’s one silver lining it’s that.
Why do you think they weren’t pounded? There’s a sufficient tacit acceptance of this shit, there are elected representatives effectively doubling down on similar rhetoric.
My argument isn’t that QAnon by itself is some huge threat or isn’t full of whackjobs, but the section in the middle Venn diagram of shared beliefs to even relatively mainstream Republicans is uncomfortably large.
Trump may not, or may retake the reins, but the shift in course has already occurred and I’m not sure I have a huge amount of faith in other Conservatives course correcting.
If a large cohort of moderate conservatives can’t throw down the hammer after January 6th what would possibly get them to wield it?
I don’t think we’ll see too much disruption or violence granted, solely because these types seem likely to get their way politically in the next cycle or so, I’m not sure how tenable that is in the medium or long term
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EPT
