EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3426
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Doc.Rivers
United States404 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35162 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23464 Posts
On January 02 2022 09:48 Gahlo wrote: Right, the Russian hysteria that had factual basis. The hysteria I remember was pretending like hacking political parties to influence elections was unprecedented and wasn't something the US has done (including to Russia specifically) regularly for decades (and isn't even near the worst thing the US does to change election outcomes). Not to mention the DNC phishing was only damaging because of the substance of what DNC members were saying. Then there was the "bot farm" stuff which in total was equivalent to ~0.1% of campaign advertising while the impressions (and content) were pathetic. Then there was the "Russia organized rallies" propaganda that was actually reportedly Russia linked accounts promoting one of hundreds of protests against Trump that had been going on for days before they glommed onto it (to unknown impact). Also that Trump was appointing Russian stooges despite them being approved by Democrats. Then there was the gaslighting from Democrats where practically every criticism and dislike of Clinton (even from her left) was supposedly borne of Russian/Republican propaganda. I also happen to remember that it was ~50% of Democrats that believed Russia manipulated vote totals in favor of Trump ~December 2016. Another part of the hysteria was the constant "Trump's goose is cooked!" stories that culminated in the key cooperating government witness Michael "You can't rape your wife" Cohen getting the longest sentence (as well as frequent guest spots on MSNBC) while Trump has a 40%+ lead in Republican primary polls and is the betting favorite for president in 2024. None of that is a defense of Trump or Republican hysteria, it's just a friendly reminder of some of the Russia hysteria from Democrats. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3249 Posts
I have to say I don’t really understand that. I mean, if you truly believed that vote tallies were manipulated and whatever mechanisms are supposed to prevent that are compromised, how are you gonna just go back to politics as normal? “Oh well, let’s really crush them in the midterms and then maybe we can limit them to one term in the White House”? Fucked up as January 6th was, that at least feels like a plausible fix if an election actually was stolen. It’s quite possible that within my lifetime I’m not going to live in a democracy any more. If that happens is this the response I can expect from Americans? Temporary outrage with no particular action, then go back to normal and vaguely hope that next time their vote will count? | ||
micronesia
United States24740 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
It’s quite possible that within my lifetime I’m not going to live in a democracy any more. If that happens is this the response I can expect from Americans? Temporary outrage with no particular action, then go back to normal and vaguely hope that next time their vote will count? It breaks my heart to say it, but it's never been easier to find current examples of failing and failed democracies, as the west rusts out and autocrats everywhere capitalise on the license the pandemic has given them. Hong Kong is the most obvious, but there are just so damn many right now. We should try to learn from the slices of life those examples are giving us, imo. Really, democracies often die a slow, mundane death. When things are changing for the worse the average person tends to focus on what they can control, keep out of sight and hope it blows over. The sad fact is, the abstract idea is just not important enough to people for them to risk everything to defend it. It's often a while before the loss of it really affects someone keeping their head down. By then it's too late. You're absolutely right to point out that of the tens or hundreds of thousands who believed the election was stolen, only a few hundred were crazy enough to go to the capitol. On the one hand this is positive, since it wasn't stolen. On the other, I agree it suggests we might get the same ratio the other way if and when Trump 2.0 stages a real coup. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7384 Posts
On January 02 2022 12:10 ChristianS wrote: I guess the more interesting question to me is what people actually *do* about it when their government is actually illegitimate. I remember thinking at the time that the “~75% of Democrats think Russia manipulated vote tallies “ statistic must be a quirk of polling, rather than a true insight into the Democratic mind, because I didn’t think they were *acting* like their government was no longer a democracy. I may have to reevaluate that, considering just how many Republicans seem to genuinely believe 2020 was stolen. They’re acting pretty much the way they normally do. Maybe they’re a little crazier than normal but compared to 2016-2020 they don’t feel all that different to me. I have to say I don’t really understand that. I mean, if you truly believed that vote tallies were manipulated and whatever mechanisms are supposed to prevent that are compromised, how are you gonna just go back to politics as normal? “Oh well, let’s really crush them in the midterms and then maybe we can limit them to one term in the White House”? Fucked up as January 6th was, that at least feels like a plausible fix if an election actually was stolen. It’s quite possible that within my lifetime I’m not going to live in a democracy any more. If that happens is this the response I can expect from Americans? Temporary outrage with no particular action, then go back to normal and vaguely hope that next time their vote will count? Thats the MO. The only serious action you'd see would be from capitalism bleeding people out into more wholesale desperation, but so long as the line is towed and people are capable of living paycheck to paycheck with no savings or ability to pay for emergencies but able to barely afford food and rent, then people will keep up the "just vote, its our true power," mentality. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26028 Posts
Sure it was a real phenomenon, worthy of investigation but the hysteria came from how big a factor it was and how big an impact it had. And it’s hardly some unique thing either. It was a convenient excuse the Dems and liberal cheerleaders in media and amongst the general populace that prevented introspection in the horse they backed losing to Donald fucking Trump of all people. And over time I think it’s settled numbers wise, perhaps I’m incorrect here. I still think it’s a jump in severity from charges of attempts to influence (true) and potentially collusion (not as cut and dry), to charges of a domestic actor rigging a whole election, with zero evidence and multiple investigations to the contrary, being repeated regardless by influential players in the political and media sphere. As things stand we have a staggeringly high number of registered Republicans who believe that the other party didn’t have some third party influencing the lead in to an election, but actively rigged it, despite no evidence to this charge. Which is quite a scary prospect. It may be that for many it’s just their copium and ultimately they know it’s bollocks and those numbers drop back down with distance from the election. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15723 Posts
On January 03 2022 01:15 mierin wrote: One of these days, "but Republicans are evil" isn't going to be enough to explain things like why 8 democrats voted against increasing the federal minimum wage. Because 8 democrats were elected by people who weighed the pros and cons of the available options, which ended with those 8 democrats being elected. If these people were voting in a way that is a deal breaker to their constituents, they would not be elected. The problem is the voters. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23464 Posts
On January 03 2022 01:21 Mohdoo wrote: Because 8 democrats were elected by people who weighed the pros and cons of the available options, which ended with those 8 democrats being elected. If these people were voting in a way that is a deal breaker to their constituents, they would not be elected. The problem is the voters. What would you say "the problem" is with those Democrat voters? | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On January 03 2022 01:15 mierin wrote: One of these days, "but Republicans are evil" isn't going to be enough to explain things like why 8 democrats voted against increasing the federal minimum wage. Did even a single Republican vote for it? Democrats suck and Republicans are evil are not mutually exclusive. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15723 Posts
On January 03 2022 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote: What would you say "the problem" is with those Democrat voters? They have crappy, immoral beliefs that only serve to harm themselves. They are poorly educated and don’t understand what mechanisms can be used to make the world better. | ||
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Doc.Rivers
United States404 Posts
On January 02 2022 22:06 WombaT wrote: I’d be with GH on the Russian shenanigans. Sure it was a real phenomenon, worthy of investigation but the hysteria came from how big a factor it was and how big an impact it had. And it’s hardly some unique thing either. It was a convenient excuse the Dems and liberal cheerleaders in media and amongst the general populace that prevented introspection in the horse they backed losing to Donald fucking Trump of all people. And over time I think it’s settled numbers wise, perhaps I’m incorrect here. I still think it’s a jump in severity from charges of attempts to influence (true) and potentially collusion (not as cut and dry), to charges of a domestic actor rigging a whole election, with zero evidence and multiple investigations to the contrary, being repeated regardless by influential players in the political and media sphere. As things stand we have a staggeringly high number of registered Republicans who believe that the other party didn’t have some third party influencing the lead in to an election, but actively rigged it, despite no evidence to this charge. Which is quite a scary prospect. It may be that for many it’s just their copium and ultimately they know it’s bollocks and those numbers drop back down with distance from the election. Highly relevant article out from WaPo today. WaPo deserves some credit for being fair and balanced lately. I will link Greenwald only for the WaPo content: | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26028 Posts
I’d be interested to see the numbers, and how they sit now. I don’t particularly dispute a collective lack of perspective and sanity over Russia at the time, but am curious as to how strongly it has persisted. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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KwarK
United States43219 Posts
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