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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here.
I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him.
But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country.
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On November 07 2021 09:41 mierin wrote: You don't have to be "evil" to try to make sure (fiscally) progressive policy never happens. You just have to be beholden to lobbyists/corporate interests. A lot of non-Americans in this thread, happily living with their universal healthcare and other things that are nice to have in first world countries, judging the discontent of Americans who might have standards above "at least they're not Republican" for literally the only alternative party we can vote for.
I can't say this with any sort of academic rigor, but from my experiences, people who are comfortable in their lives are often way more likely to act like things aren't that bad and that the people below them just need to suck it up and wait for their time.
Goes all the way up the class hierarchy, I genuinely believe that politicians think being poor in America is fine and no big deal, as do loads of upper, upper-middle, and middle class people who don't have much real experience with poverty (or DO have experience with poverty and want to kick the ladder down behind them KYRSTEN SINEMA, YOU SHIT.) People out there genuinely believe you can live on 15,000USD a year (the minimum wage) and be alright, they think that you can Boot Straps your way out of your problems. And if not, well hey at least you don't live in third world Africa so you better be grateful for anything, if anything, you get!
Some people are fine with waiting for potential long accruing change because they're already comfortable and they don't have to deal with the people who have to suffer in the meantime.
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On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country.
Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset.
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If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math)... In math education, there have been plenty of pushes for new ideas and techniques that have led to net-positive results.
Here are three of them:
+ Show Spoiler +1. One example of a huge shift in how we approached elementary and secondary mathematics involved a push for applications and real-world contexts. There used to be a time when most math books were extremely proof-heavy and equation-heavy, with page after page of definitions and theorems and abstract exercises. With the exception of some timeless applications (perimeter, area, money, etc.), it was assumed that science courses were already going to take care of many relevant applications of mathematics, so most standard math courses could happily focus on the “pure math” side of things. Critics of incorporating real-world modeling into math curricula were concerned that the purity of math would be compromised, pushed out, and ultimately forgotten, replacing one of math’s unique characteristics with a redundant emphasis on scientific empiricism. But then, over many decades, applications of math became better integrated into math textbooks and curricula and standards and pedagogy, which not only *didn’t* kill off pure mathematics, but actually complemented and reinforced the learning of pure mathematics. Learning about mathematical applications alongside an equation or theorem or proof showed students that the endeavor for understanding pure mathematics wasn’t only an abstract, intellectual thought experiment, but that it could also be useful and practical. Some people appreciate mathematics for its purity and elegance, but there is also utility, and that makes the subject even more attractive for more people.
2. A second example of how mathematics education has changed over the years is that there is a greater emphasis on problem solving than ever before. Gaining some traction in the 1940s with George Polya, the ideas of learning *about* problem solving and learning *through* problem solving have led to a variety of new teaching strategies, especially student-centered ones. For a very long time, the standard was that teachers had all the knowledge and transferred it to passive students through lecturing. This was seen as a more teacher-centered approach to education, which had generally evolved into strategies like “direct instruction” (which are still far from useless). With more modern research into teaching philosophies that incorporated a more active-learning approach for students, such as “guided learning” and “flipped classrooms” and more social “collaborative learning environments”, many critics were concerned that these bottom-up approaches (starting with the students) would be less effective than the more traditional top-down approach of a teacher having all the control. This general schism is sometimes referred to as those who favor the older “sage on the stage” approach vs. those who favor the newer “guide on the side” approach, but it basically turned out to be a false dichotomy, as there are a variety of variables to consider (the teacher, the students, the lesson, the resources, etc.) that make it impossible to claim that one strategy will always have more success than any other strategy. It’s extremely conditional, and as a teacher, I find it much more beneficial to study all pedagogical strategies and pull from different ones at different times, than restrict myself to only one kind of method that may not resonate with all my classes. As with most things in education, the answer is “it depends”, and there are a million different ways to effectively teach any given lesson.
3. A third example of how math education has evolved has been a push for strategic competence. In other words, can students approach a problem in multiple ways, so that they have more flexibility when finally experiencing an adjacent problem that is slightly different. Solving systems of equations through graphing is fine if all you have is integer coefficients, but students are at a disadvantage if they can’t also solve through substitution or solve through the elimination (linear combination) method or represent systems as matrices, because real-world equations are messy and you can’t ignore decimals and fractions forever. The quadratic formula lets you solve any quadratic you want, but it’s slow and there are additional benefits for learning factoring strategies (more efficient, more generalizable to higher-degree polynomials, etc.). Same goes with basic multiplication techniques: the “traditional” approach might be ideal for 70% of the students, but if I can show one or two other methods (lattice method, partial products, etc.) that the other 30% better understand or prefer, then I’m making sure that 100% of my students are comfortable with the skill. On a more holistic level, the ability to model and represent math problems in a variety of ways is an incredibly useful skill to have. Can you take a situation and create a math equation for it? Can you use abstract, formal notation? Can you create a graph that represents it? What about a table or chart? Can you use manipulatives to model the scenario? What other representations can you use? The more strategies you have in your arsenal, the easier it’ll be to model new problems. This may all seem like common sense now, but there was a time when the mainstream approach was “there is a single best way to conceptually understand X, and it’s by doing Y”. Critics of this push for strategic competence point out that due to time restrictions, it’s often impractical to repeat the same problems three different ways, and that we should favor tried-and-true strategies and not waste time with redundancy. (After all, there are hundreds of proofs for the Pythagorean Theorem; how many do you really need to know?) Common rebuttals to those critiques are that students will understand the material more deeply by seeing multiple versions of solutions, and spending more time on more strategies early on can often save time at a later date, as students will be able to move through problems more efficiently with their preferred approaches.
When I think of the history of math education, I think of the three movements above (among others, such as the integration of technology, the pros and cons of interdisciplinary learning across multiple subjects, etc.). We’re always finding new ways to teach content and skills. It may very well be the case that teaching through the lens of social equity radically changes what students learn and how students learn, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. There are plenty of ways to teach a lesson well, and there are plenty of ways to teach a lesson poorly. However, the number one thing that I want to avoid, as a teacher, is complacency. Education will never be “solved”, and so it shouldn’t stagnate. I’m more than happy to lean into new pedagogical approaches and new perspectives, when opportunities arise. Maybe they’ll work, and maybe they won’t, but at least we’ll have some data. Also, I think that acknowledging real-world experiences helps students buy into a lesson. Teachers teach so much more than their academic subject (time management, responsibility, respect, socialization, willingness to try and fail, etc.), and students learn so much more in class than just the curriculum, and all of this is contextualized within each student’s lived experiences. I think integrating honest conversations about intersectionality and social justice can be done successfully, and school is often where students first naturally encounter these realities, whether they’re being officially taught or not. Teachers need to be properly equipped and educated on how to engage with these topics (which is nothing new – professional development has always been important), because these issues are going to organically appear in our classrooms and hallways through socialization, regardless of whether it’s being formally covered in the curriculum. It may be the case that 50 years from now, we look back on our attempts to integrate topics of identity into our math classes, and realize that no matter how much we could tinker and modify the lessons, it just didn’t make sense. But I think it’s much more likely that 50 years from now, we realize that we should have done this sooner.
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On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset.
This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial.
On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math)
I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening?
Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion.
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On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial. Show nested quote +On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion. Well, whether or not a particular trend is beneficial is the first thing anyone would ask themselves after thinking about whether that trend does indeed exist, that just seems like common sense. That you're more eager for the argument to remain in a particular place than you are to have a discussion that evolves as you go suggests to me that you're more interested in debating and winning a single, defined point, than you are in trying to evoke interesting thought and discussion. I get the sense that, more than anything else, you just like arguing with people. Don't make everyone else beholden to that outlook, it doesn't work out for you.
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On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial.
There isn't a widespread national trend, but if/when there becomes one - if the few examples start picking up traction - then what will end up mattering is whether or not the changes end up being beneficial. It's the consideration that follows as the next step in this hypothetical process. It's the Step Two, so to speak, even though Step One (math curricula being changed all across the country) hasn't happened yet, and I think it's interesting to talk about both steps.
Show nested quote +On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion.
I don't understand what you mean by a concession. At this point in time, it's a thought experiment, and I'm interested in talking about the potential benefits and drawbacks of such a reality, where social equity becomes integrated into common math teaching, the same way that my three examples are already integrated on a regular basis. We need not be afraid to try new things in education; in fact, we should be open-minded and willing to test them out.
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On November 08 2021 00:18 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial. On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion. Well, whether or not a particular trend is beneficial is the first thing anyone would ask themselves after thinking about whether that trend does indeed exist, that just seems like common sense. That you're more eager for the argument to remain in a particular place than you are to have a discussion that evolves as you go suggests to me that you're more interested in debating and winning a single, defined point, than you are in trying to evoke interesting thought and discussion. I get the sense that, more than anything else, you just like arguing with people. Don't make everyone else beholden to that outlook, it doesn't work out for you.
You want me to argue whether the trend is beneficial with people that refuse to acknowledge the trend even exists? Sounds like a waste of time.
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On November 08 2021 01:25 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2021 00:18 NewSunshine wrote:On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial. On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion. Well, whether or not a particular trend is beneficial is the first thing anyone would ask themselves after thinking about whether that trend does indeed exist, that just seems like common sense. That you're more eager for the argument to remain in a particular place than you are to have a discussion that evolves as you go suggests to me that you're more interested in debating and winning a single, defined point, than you are in trying to evoke interesting thought and discussion. I get the sense that, more than anything else, you just like arguing with people. Don't make everyone else beholden to that outlook, it doesn't work out for you. You want me to argue whether the trend is beneficial with people that refuse to acknowledge the trend even exists? Sounds like a waste of time.
Why?
Two different questions: "Does X happen?" "Would it be good if X happened?"
These are independent questions. If you are angry about X happening, you need to both convince people that X happens and that X is a bad thing.
Meanwhile, it is very valid to consider the potential benefits and drawbacks of X, even if it is not happening, because one could start to make it happen.
If you actually want to make education better instead of just being angry about stuff because fox news told you to be angry about stuff, both questions are relevant. Which is why you see educators like DPB discuss both questions. Educators generally tend to care a lot about making education better. And that involves having an open mind towards developments, because unlike what conservatives seem to believe, education is constantly evolving and improving. Not only with regards to the topics of education, but also the methods.
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On November 08 2021 01:25 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2021 00:18 NewSunshine wrote:On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial. On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion. Well, whether or not a particular trend is beneficial is the first thing anyone would ask themselves after thinking about whether that trend does indeed exist, that just seems like common sense. That you're more eager for the argument to remain in a particular place than you are to have a discussion that evolves as you go suggests to me that you're more interested in debating and winning a single, defined point, than you are in trying to evoke interesting thought and discussion. I get the sense that, more than anything else, you just like arguing with people. Don't make everyone else beholden to that outlook, it doesn't work out for you. You want me to argue whether the trend is beneficial with people that refuse to acknowledge the trend even exists? Sounds like a waste of time.
Why would this be a waste of time? This is how thought experiments work, and how the scientific method works (you make predictions). In terms of education, brainstorming potential positives and negatives of a new teaching/learning method can help prepare you and make the experience more effective. You generally don't want to blindly try something that has no potential (now THAT would be a waste of time), so it makes sense to think about the potential too.
Edit: Simberto's comment above explained this very well, too.
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Norway28630 Posts
Just gonna chime in to give my full support to DPB's #67225 post.
Also - again - I don't know how things really work in the US. But I suspect that schools will sometimes/frequently implement something in an attempt to try something new based on some external guideline, and then the assignment is basically given to the teachers, with little to no quality control from the school board. With Norway having introduced three interdisciplinary topics in the 2020 curriculum, teachers at the high school I teach were given something like ~4 hours within assigned groups (like, the teachers teaching Norwegian, sociology and math for one particular class of students might form a temporary trio for just this) to prepare/brainstorm some project attempting to integrate those interdisciplinary topics into our lesson plans for the year.
Then, we execute those plans, and after, there's some evaluation process. To what degree we end up with a meaningful end product depends much more upon the teachers than upon 'school policy'. Time constrains, trying something new, maybe a teacher who has no formal education in that particular subject because the school just desperately needed someone to fill a position because of a pregnancy, there are lots of factors that can make teachers end up doing something that falls flat on its face. I recalled reading some stories several years ago of slavery being used as part of math questions in a way that caused quite some outrage.. like 'One slave got whipped five times a day. How many times did he get whipped in a month (31 days)? Another slave got whipped nine times a day. How many times did he get whipped in a month? How many times did the two slaves get whipped together in one month?” or 'each tree had 56 oranges. if 8 slaves picked them equally, how many oranges did each slave pick'?
I understood that both of these were examples of teachers attempting to be interdisciplinary, integrating math and history or whatever, and doing a bad job with that attempt. I did not interpret them as the schools those teachers were working at having a particularly indifferent/callous attitude towards slavery; I find it much more likely that the schools were entirely unaware of just what questions the teachers had decided to go with..
Now, I will argue that while it's good that teachers collaborate, share their knowledge, share their plans for how to teach a particular topic - I also think it's a good thing that they are sufficiently autonomous that occasional missteps of this sort are kinda inevitable. As teachers, we're always trying to make things more interesting, more relatable for the students. There are also things that might work for one particular teacher with one particular group of students. And as long as we have the attitude where we want to try new things because we want to improve our teaching, we're bound to end up doing stupid things every now and then, some more frequently than others.
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On November 08 2021 01:38 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2021 01:25 BlackJack wrote:On November 08 2021 00:18 NewSunshine wrote:On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial. On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion. Well, whether or not a particular trend is beneficial is the first thing anyone would ask themselves after thinking about whether that trend does indeed exist, that just seems like common sense. That you're more eager for the argument to remain in a particular place than you are to have a discussion that evolves as you go suggests to me that you're more interested in debating and winning a single, defined point, than you are in trying to evoke interesting thought and discussion. I get the sense that, more than anything else, you just like arguing with people. Don't make everyone else beholden to that outlook, it doesn't work out for you. You want me to argue whether the trend is beneficial with people that refuse to acknowledge the trend even exists? Sounds like a waste of time. Why? Two different questions: "Does X happen?" "Would it be good if X happened?" These are independent questions. If you are angry about X happening, you need to both convince people that X happens and that X is a bad thing. Meanwhile, it is very valid to consider the potential benefits and drawbacks of X, even if it is not happening, because one could start to make it happen. If you actually want to make education better instead of just being angry about stuff because fox news told you to be angry about stuff, both questions are relevant. Which is why you see educators like DPB discuss both questions. Educators generally tend to care a lot about making education better. And that involves having an open mind towards developments, because unlike what conservatives seem to believe, education is constantly evolving and improving. Not only with regards to the topics of education, but also the methods.
I'm not going to bore you with the details of why I refuse to engage this way with DarkPlasmaBall, but I tried this before with him in the COVID thread when we argued about natural immunity vs vaccine immunity. He basically tried to argue that natural immunity was weak compared to vaccine immunity and whenever I challenged him he would retreat behind "Vaccine immunity is safer to obtain therefore it is better," which is an answer for a completely different question. I'm not going to argue "Would it be good X happened" because I'm confident he is just going to take pot shots at my argument and then retreat behind "X is not happening."
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On November 08 2021 03:43 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2021 01:38 Simberto wrote:On November 08 2021 01:25 BlackJack wrote:On November 08 2021 00:18 NewSunshine wrote:On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial. On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion. Well, whether or not a particular trend is beneficial is the first thing anyone would ask themselves after thinking about whether that trend does indeed exist, that just seems like common sense. That you're more eager for the argument to remain in a particular place than you are to have a discussion that evolves as you go suggests to me that you're more interested in debating and winning a single, defined point, than you are in trying to evoke interesting thought and discussion. I get the sense that, more than anything else, you just like arguing with people. Don't make everyone else beholden to that outlook, it doesn't work out for you. You want me to argue whether the trend is beneficial with people that refuse to acknowledge the trend even exists? Sounds like a waste of time. Why? Two different questions: "Does X happen?" "Would it be good if X happened?" These are independent questions. If you are angry about X happening, you need to both convince people that X happens and that X is a bad thing. Meanwhile, it is very valid to consider the potential benefits and drawbacks of X, even if it is not happening, because one could start to make it happen. If you actually want to make education better instead of just being angry about stuff because fox news told you to be angry about stuff, both questions are relevant. Which is why you see educators like DPB discuss both questions. Educators generally tend to care a lot about making education better. And that involves having an open mind towards developments, because unlike what conservatives seem to believe, education is constantly evolving and improving. Not only with regards to the topics of education, but also the methods. I'm not going to bore you with the details of why I refuse to engage this way with DarkPlasmaBall, but I tried this before with him in the COVID thread when we argued about natural immunity vs vaccine immunity. He basically tried to argue that natural immunity was weak compared to vaccine immunity and whenever I challenged him he would retreat behind "Vaccine immunity is safer to obtain therefore it is better," which is an answer for a completely different question. I'm not going to argue "Would it be good X happened" because I'm confident he is just going to take pot shots at my argument and then retreat behind "X is not happening."
I don't think you're properly representing what happened with a different topic in a different thread, but that doesn't change the fact that we're talking about math education here, and I'm happy to talk about (1) any particular math lessons that you think might be integrated with social equity, as well as (2) if you think they'd be helpful or harmful. Both of those are interesting and important to me. It's your call, though.
Edit: Also, your original objection was "You want me to argue whether the trend is beneficial with people that refuse to acknowledge the trend even exists? Sounds like a waste of time." That's very different than saying "I don't want to talk about this topic ***with this one individual because I think he engages in bad faith***", and it was already explained above that talking about the potential benefits and drawbacks of hypothetical trends does have merit, in many cases.
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Norway28630 Posts
On November 08 2021 03:43 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2021 01:38 Simberto wrote:On November 08 2021 01:25 BlackJack wrote:On November 08 2021 00:18 NewSunshine wrote:On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 05:46 JimmiC wrote:
This is why it is important for you to source, because your sources are saying what the experts (DPB and Drone) on education of our thread and others are telling you. That there are many people mad about what might happen, but that it is not actually happening but instead the opposite is.
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial. On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion. Well, whether or not a particular trend is beneficial is the first thing anyone would ask themselves after thinking about whether that trend does indeed exist, that just seems like common sense. That you're more eager for the argument to remain in a particular place than you are to have a discussion that evolves as you go suggests to me that you're more interested in debating and winning a single, defined point, than you are in trying to evoke interesting thought and discussion. I get the sense that, more than anything else, you just like arguing with people. Don't make everyone else beholden to that outlook, it doesn't work out for you. You want me to argue whether the trend is beneficial with people that refuse to acknowledge the trend even exists? Sounds like a waste of time. Why? Two different questions: "Does X happen?" "Would it be good if X happened?" These are independent questions. If you are angry about X happening, you need to both convince people that X happens and that X is a bad thing. Meanwhile, it is very valid to consider the potential benefits and drawbacks of X, even if it is not happening, because one could start to make it happen. If you actually want to make education better instead of just being angry about stuff because fox news told you to be angry about stuff, both questions are relevant. Which is why you see educators like DPB discuss both questions. Educators generally tend to care a lot about making education better. And that involves having an open mind towards developments, because unlike what conservatives seem to believe, education is constantly evolving and improving. Not only with regards to the topics of education, but also the methods. I'm not going to bore you with the details of why I refuse to engage this way with DarkPlasmaBall, but I tried this before with him in the COVID thread when we argued about natural immunity vs vaccine immunity. He basically tried to argue that natural immunity was weak compared to vaccine immunity and whenever I challenged him he would retreat behind "Vaccine immunity is safer to obtain therefore it is better," which is an answer for a completely different question. I'm not going to argue "Would it be good X happened" because I'm confident he is just going to take pot shots at my argument and then retreat behind "X is not happening."
I actually get your sentiment in a way because I think in the covid thread people jumped to make assumptions about you that weren't grounded in reality but (much like how I've always experienced you as a reasonable guy) I've always experienced DPB as a guy who discusses in good faith and who is willing to adjust, so in this particular case, it's probably worthwhile to make one of those posts where you clarify your overall pov in a succinct manner - if you're genuinely interested. (And while in the covid thread, you were the person with more professional experience and expertise, in a discussion on education, it's him.) *also, it's sweet if we don't start a new meta-discussion on people's posting qualities.
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Norway28630 Posts
The medical professionals I myself know (and I work at a school specializing on educating people to become healthcare workers), and one of the head doctors of the Norwegian public health institute, have consistently sounded very much like BJ when talking about Covid. The people who are most alarmist, in my experience, are not doctors, but people who themselves are in risk groups or somehow particularly negatively effected themselves.
Anyway, this post of yours is just confirmation of the first sentence in my post - 'in the covid thread people jumped to make assumptions about you that weren't grounded in reality'. As stated however, I have no interest in 'starting a new meta-discussion on people's posting qualities.' (So, I'm not going to go further with this beyond this post.)
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On November 08 2021 04:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2021 03:43 BlackJack wrote:On November 08 2021 01:38 Simberto wrote:On November 08 2021 01:25 BlackJack wrote:On November 08 2021 00:18 NewSunshine wrote:On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 11:04 BlackJack wrote: [quote]
So the educators that support these proposals are experts but the educators that are critical of these proposals are just biased and should be dismissed outright. Is there something in particular that makes DPB and Eri experts but the educators that oppose the idea as just biased critics? I think your own bias is showing. Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial. On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion. Well, whether or not a particular trend is beneficial is the first thing anyone would ask themselves after thinking about whether that trend does indeed exist, that just seems like common sense. That you're more eager for the argument to remain in a particular place than you are to have a discussion that evolves as you go suggests to me that you're more interested in debating and winning a single, defined point, than you are in trying to evoke interesting thought and discussion. I get the sense that, more than anything else, you just like arguing with people. Don't make everyone else beholden to that outlook, it doesn't work out for you. You want me to argue whether the trend is beneficial with people that refuse to acknowledge the trend even exists? Sounds like a waste of time. Why? Two different questions: "Does X happen?" "Would it be good if X happened?" These are independent questions. If you are angry about X happening, you need to both convince people that X happens and that X is a bad thing. Meanwhile, it is very valid to consider the potential benefits and drawbacks of X, even if it is not happening, because one could start to make it happen. If you actually want to make education better instead of just being angry about stuff because fox news told you to be angry about stuff, both questions are relevant. Which is why you see educators like DPB discuss both questions. Educators generally tend to care a lot about making education better. And that involves having an open mind towards developments, because unlike what conservatives seem to believe, education is constantly evolving and improving. Not only with regards to the topics of education, but also the methods. I'm not going to bore you with the details of why I refuse to engage this way with DarkPlasmaBall, but I tried this before with him in the COVID thread when we argued about natural immunity vs vaccine immunity. He basically tried to argue that natural immunity was weak compared to vaccine immunity and whenever I challenged him he would retreat behind "Vaccine immunity is safer to obtain therefore it is better," which is an answer for a completely different question. I'm not going to argue "Would it be good X happened" because I'm confident he is just going to take pot shots at my argument and then retreat behind "X is not happening." I actually get your sentiment in a way because I think in the covid thread people jumped to make assumptions about you that weren't grounded in reality but (much like how I've always experienced you as a reasonable guy) I've always experienced DPB as a guy who discusses in good faith and who is willing to adjust, so in this particular case, it's probably worthwhile to make one of those posts where you clarify your overall pov in a succinct manner - if you're genuinely interested. (And while in the covid thread, you were the person with more professional experience and expertise, in a discussion on education, it's him.) *also, it's sweet if we don't start a new meta-discussion on people's posting qualities. 
My main point was simply to argue that this was a trend happening in schools and the idea that it's a myth because "Critical Race Theory isn't being taught in schools" is itself a myth. It's also a myth that only the people that listen to Glen Beck care about this. Lifelong liberal Bill Maher talks about this on his show Real Time on HBO. He's said something along the lines of "I hate that I have to be on this side of this issue because I've always been a pro-civil rights guy and now you're making me be Tucker Carlson."
Perhaps my favorite example of wokeism invading the education system is courtesty of the San Francisco School Board:
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/San-Francisco-school-board-s-antics-would-be-15948058.php
A gay dad volunteers for one of eight open slots on a parent committee that advises the school board. All of the 10 current members are straight moms. Three are white. Three are Latina. Two are Black. One is Tongan. They all want the dad to join them.
The seven school board members talk for two hours about whether the dad brings enough diversity. Yes, he’d be the only man. And the only LGBTQ representative. But he’d be the fourth white person in a district where 15% of students are white.
The gay dad never utters a single word. The board members do not ask the dad a single question before declining to approve him for the committee. They say they’ll consider allowing him to volunteer if he comes back with a slate of more diverse candidates, ideally including an Arab parent, a Native American parent, a Vietnamese parent and a Chinese parent who doesn’t speak English.
This is something you'd find in an episode of South Park. It's a joke. This is not something only white supremacists find ridiculous. Reasonable people everywhere find this ridiculous which is why several members are facing recall elections despite SF being one of the most progressive cities in the country.
Having said that, while I do think it's obvious to anyone that this trend exists and all you have to do to see the trend exists is take these school boards at their words, I don't think it's as big of a deal as the parents are making it out to be. I think overall these changes are detrimental for education but I don't have strong opinions on it. From my own personal anecdote, I myself was in a gifted math program through school starting in 6th grade. It was basically 2 years ahead of the normal class or 1 year ahead of the advanced class for my grade. It was still quite easy and unchallenging to me. I can't possibly imagine how boring and demotivating it would be to have just been in the regular class until grade 10. But as you said, I'm not expert on education. Personally, I don't see how it's beneficial for students if California wants to get rid of gifted/accelerated math classes. They are basically anouncing they are proposing those changes for equity purposes. I'm receptive to opposing viewpoints. People seem to speak highly of South Korea and Finland's education programs, are they also of the opinion that students learn better in heterogenous classes where students are on different levels and teachers have to teach to the different levels?
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On November 08 2021 06:32 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2021 04:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 08 2021 03:43 BlackJack wrote:On November 08 2021 01:38 Simberto wrote:On November 08 2021 01:25 BlackJack wrote:On November 08 2021 00:18 NewSunshine wrote:On November 07 2021 23:58 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 20:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2021 13:52 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2021 11:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: [quote]
Hold on, you're completely moving the goalposts here. You first asserted that there were sweeping curriculum changes obsessed with inappropriate social justice, that math classes were being transformed and students were being indoctrinated with nonsense at the expense of actually learning math (e.g., when your article claimed that students might not be able to take calculus anymore, because of these mysterious equity concerns). And then your "evidence" was a bunch of fearmongering and hypotheticals, coupled with teachers being educated about discrimination (which has always been part of our training, even when completing our education degrees, long before becoming employed at any particular district). And now you're changing the focus of your accusation to the assertion that I'm not critical of certain positions or saying that I'm a proponent of math-is-racist curricula? I'm more than happy to discuss a specific math lesson plan if you have an example of one that you find troubling, but we're changing the subject here. I'm not the one shifting the goalposts. I simply posted that California was proposing to end its gifted/accelerated math programs for the sake of racial equity. JimmiC responded that the research shows these changes are beneficial, that heterogenous classes are good, that you and Eri agree with it, etc. Now, whether or not this proposal will be beneficial vs harmful is a completely different discussion then whether this change is part of a national trend to promote equity, wouldn't you agree? To be honest I don't even know what JimmiC was saying that you and Eri were or weren't supporting. I just had to point out that his opinion of an educator as an expert vs a biased critic is, as far as I can tell, solely based on whether or not they agree with him. But why are you even responding to this post and not the one I directed at you? I've literally supplied multiple examples of school boards and states from all over the country representing 10s of millions of people with changes they have made or plan to make for the sake of racial/social equity. Again I'm not sure how you can hold the position that isn't happening and is just the working of a dozen rogue teachers dispersed around the country. Because I believe JimmiC adequately responded to it, and I already said why I don't think you showed what you think you showed. Also, note that your paragraph here isn't about math, the subject we were referring to. And again, making changes to curricula doesn't imply those changes are detrimental, hence why I'm curious about any particular math lesson plan that used to be better but was recently tainted by focusing too heavily on racial/social equity at the expense of learning mathematics. Pointing out that a lesson has changed is not the point; pointing out that a lesson has changed *for the worse* is the point, because that's the only reason why we ought to be upset. This bolded part is exactly what it means to shift the goal posts. We just spent pages arguing whether or not there is a widespread national trend to implement changes in schools for racial/social equity and suddenly you're saying the issue is not whether these changes are happening, it's whether or not they are beneficial. On November 07 2021 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If I could take a moment to speak more broadly on why I'm generally unconcerned - and potentially optimistic and excited - about the attempts for integrating social equity into our curricula and classrooms (especially in math) I assume you've conceded your previous position? You can't simultaneously be excited and optimistic at attempts to integrate social equity into math class and curriculum while arguing that it isn't happening? Or is it your position that people are only allowed to object to changes once they are finalized and not while they are being proposed and debated on? That would be a really bizarre opinion. Well, whether or not a particular trend is beneficial is the first thing anyone would ask themselves after thinking about whether that trend does indeed exist, that just seems like common sense. That you're more eager for the argument to remain in a particular place than you are to have a discussion that evolves as you go suggests to me that you're more interested in debating and winning a single, defined point, than you are in trying to evoke interesting thought and discussion. I get the sense that, more than anything else, you just like arguing with people. Don't make everyone else beholden to that outlook, it doesn't work out for you. You want me to argue whether the trend is beneficial with people that refuse to acknowledge the trend even exists? Sounds like a waste of time. Why? Two different questions: "Does X happen?" "Would it be good if X happened?" These are independent questions. If you are angry about X happening, you need to both convince people that X happens and that X is a bad thing. Meanwhile, it is very valid to consider the potential benefits and drawbacks of X, even if it is not happening, because one could start to make it happen. If you actually want to make education better instead of just being angry about stuff because fox news told you to be angry about stuff, both questions are relevant. Which is why you see educators like DPB discuss both questions. Educators generally tend to care a lot about making education better. And that involves having an open mind towards developments, because unlike what conservatives seem to believe, education is constantly evolving and improving. Not only with regards to the topics of education, but also the methods. I'm not going to bore you with the details of why I refuse to engage this way with DarkPlasmaBall, but I tried this before with him in the COVID thread when we argued about natural immunity vs vaccine immunity. He basically tried to argue that natural immunity was weak compared to vaccine immunity and whenever I challenged him he would retreat behind "Vaccine immunity is safer to obtain therefore it is better," which is an answer for a completely different question. I'm not going to argue "Would it be good X happened" because I'm confident he is just going to take pot shots at my argument and then retreat behind "X is not happening." I actually get your sentiment in a way because I think in the covid thread people jumped to make assumptions about you that weren't grounded in reality but (much like how I've always experienced you as a reasonable guy) I've always experienced DPB as a guy who discusses in good faith and who is willing to adjust, so in this particular case, it's probably worthwhile to make one of those posts where you clarify your overall pov in a succinct manner - if you're genuinely interested. (And while in the covid thread, you were the person with more professional experience and expertise, in a discussion on education, it's him.) *also, it's sweet if we don't start a new meta-discussion on people's posting qualities.  My main point was simply to argue that this was a trend happening in schools and the idea that it's a myth because "Critical Race Theory isn't being taught in schools" is itself a myth. It's also a myth that only the people that listen to Glen Beck care about this. Lifelong liberal Bill Maher talks about this on his show Real Time on HBO. He's said something along the lines of "I hate that I have to be on this side of this issue because I've always been a pro-civil rights guy and now you're making me be Tucker Carlson." Perhaps my favorite example of wokeism invading the education system is courtesty of the San Francisco School Board: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/San-Francisco-school-board-s-antics-would-be-15948058.phpShow nested quote +A gay dad volunteers for one of eight open slots on a parent committee that advises the school board. All of the 10 current members are straight moms. Three are white. Three are Latina. Two are Black. One is Tongan. They all want the dad to join them.
The seven school board members talk for two hours about whether the dad brings enough diversity. Yes, he’d be the only man. And the only LGBTQ representative. But he’d be the fourth white person in a district where 15% of students are white.
The gay dad never utters a single word. The board members do not ask the dad a single question before declining to approve him for the committee. They say they’ll consider allowing him to volunteer if he comes back with a slate of more diverse candidates, ideally including an Arab parent, a Native American parent, a Vietnamese parent and a Chinese parent who doesn’t speak English. This is something you'd find in an episode of South Park. It's a joke. This is not something only white supremacists find ridiculous. Reasonable people everywhere find this ridiculous which is why several members are facing recall elections despite SF being one of the most progressive cities in the country.
Yeah, that "is dad diverse enough" conversation sounds pretty ridiculous, given the demographics of the panel. I'm assuming everything there is represented accurately. Situations like that sound problematic, and I hope they're addressed.
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