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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Personally I am very much in agreement with Freire regarding the limitations of the banking model of education.
Education must begin with the solution of the teacher-student contradiction, by reconciling the poles of the contradiction so that both are simultaneously teachers and students. This solution is not (nor can it be) found in the banking concept.
On the contrary, banking education maintains and even stimulates the contradiction through the following attitudes and practices, which mirror oppressive society as a whole:
(a) the teacher teaches and the students are taught;
(b) the teacher knows everything and the students know nothing;
(c) the teacher thinks and the students are thought about;
(d) the teacher talks and the students listen—meekly;
(e) the teacher disciplines and the students are disciplined;
(f) the teacher chooses and enforces his choice, and the students
comply;
(g) the teacher acts and the students have the illusion of acting
through the action of the teacher;
(h) the teacher chooses the program content, and the students
(who were not consulted) adapt to it;
(i) the teacher confuses the authority of knowledge with his or
her own professional authority, which she and he sets in opposition to the freedom of the students;
(j) the teacher is the Subject of the learning process, while the
pupils are mere objects.
It is not surprising that the banking concept of education regards men as adaptable, manageable beings. The more students work at storing the deposits entrusted to them, the less they develop the critical consciousness which would result from their intervention in the world as transformers of that world. The more completely they accept the passive role imposed on them, the more they tend simply to adapt to the world as it is and to the fragmented view of reality deposited in them.
The capability of banking education to minimize or annul the students creative power and to stimulate their credulity serves the interests of the oppressors, who care neither to have the world revealed nor to see it transformed. The oppressors use their "humanitarianism" to preserve a profitable situation. Thus they react almost instinctively against any experiment in education which stimulates the critical faculties and is not content with a partial view of reality but always seeks out the ties which link one point to another and one problem to another.
Pedagogy of the Oppressed
The last line speaks to the objections Blackjack has been raising. The one before that to them and the narrative from MLK's "white moderate".
@DPB and/or LD do your students recognize they are also teaching you?
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Norway28742 Posts
Doubtful, although I've been very conscious to ask my students for feedback on how to improve and how they prefer that I structure their education - and I do my very best (within the realms of also needing to adhere to school rules/national goals - these are fortunately quite flexible) to accommodate the wishes and desires of my students.
I'm certain I give significantly more autonomy to my students than what the norm is. Some students have expressed a lot of appreciation for this, while I can also tell that for others, I give so much freedom that it legitimately paralyzes them. Teaching history and sociology, I feel like my method works very well, but I'm less confident I'd be a good STEM teacher.
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As LD said, asking students for feedback on the instruction and what works / doesn't work, what they like/dislike are all helpful, to help tailor the lessons to their needs/preferences (which tends to be a net good). Them informing me of these things is one way that they can "teach" me, especially since they'll rarely teach me the actual math content. Them having some level of control/power in the classroom is what helps to get them engaged; they're buying in to our classroom, not just the teacher's classroom. It's not my class; it's our class, and we're all responsible for making it successful. Offering autonomy and being present (but not overwhelmingly so) when things get tough seem to work well. They know my job is to help them learn and grow, and I try to remind them that they're helping me learn and grow as well; it's a two-way street. This mindset can all be accomplished in a math classroom too 
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On November 06 2021 06:36 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 06:10 JimmiC wrote:On November 06 2021 05:59 micronesia wrote:
I think the benefits of integration (varying ability levels in the same class) vs organizing by performance depend a great deal on the nature of the class/discipline. For physics, I don't find integration to be particularly helpful to students at either end of the spectrum. For some other classes, that may not be the case. However, placing students into gifted programs is different than placing students into individual classes, so they are kind of separate topics. Age as well. For hockey (and I know it is not the same but my point of reference), they used to tier the children right away and now they wait until 10. It is pretty amazing to watch some of the ones who can barely skate catch up to the ones who are ripping around on day one within a couple of months. the top 5 year olds and the top 10 year olds are usually a pretty different group. But then at some point (not 100% sure 10 is the right age) it becomes hard to teach the skills and nuances to some while others struggle to skate, all the drills take longer and so on. And while some people will say of course, every year there is a fight about tiering the kids right from the start and it often comes down to a vote so it has moved around. I read that athletic achievement within a given school grade group correlates very strongly to age. In the UK August 31st is the cutoff so you have kids born on September 1 in the same age group at school as kids born August 31. The August 31 kids will naturally underperform significantly compared to their older peers but won’t realize that they’re just younger. Over time the older kids that are mistaken for being more gifted get more practice, more confidence, more encouragement etc. to the point that college level players that are physically grown still show a strong bias towards older birthdays. It’s kinda crazy but if you’re considering becoming a parent you should legitimately aim for a birthday towards the start of the school year. It has a measurable impact on life outcomes.
I'm curious what policy you could implement to remedy something like this though. Identifying problems with education is the easy part. It's developing and implementing a policy that is a challenging part.
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Northern Ireland26262 Posts
On November 06 2021 06:31 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 04:52 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 03:58 Mohdoo wrote:On November 06 2021 03:18 KwarK wrote:
It’s as real as all the other made up persecution fantasies the right circle jerk over on Facebook. There isn’t a national problem of politically motivated persecution of white children in schools to address, just as there isn’t one of Christian persecution or conservative persecution or anything else. I mean for fucks sake, one of the examples of persecution you listed was limited spaces at a high demand school being given out using a lottery system in the name of fairness. So long as wine moms believe CRT is trying to make their kids feel ashamed of slavery, its a done deal. We don't get to choose the electorate, we can just work around it. Shaming white people is not a winning strategy. Just to be clear, my position is that CRT is very good and important and also a really bad idea because if you lose the election none of it matters. What is palatable at this point though? Just put up with ridiculously sensitive sensibilities in perpetuity and don’t attempt to do anything ever? I think yes, if CRT was actually being pushed as is being billed and little Billy is being told he should be ashamed for being white by his teacher, then yes I’m in agreement on messaging 100% ‘So long as x believes’ is a good maxim to go by if there’s some problem in communication that can reasonably be solved by better communication. To a point that is where x’s beliefs aren’t particularly reasonably held even after attempts at clarification. It people wish to object to ‘CRT’ based on what’s actually proposed and implemented, that’s their prerogative but we’re in a position of defending policies that well, basically don’t exist in the first place in the way people conceive, and even when corrected they’ll still double down. I mean not just here, should we not have passed the ACA because people believed there’d be death panels for the elderly, or more contemporaneously should we not roll out a vaccine program with mandates because some people don’t believe in vaccines, or hell Covid existing? There is also the other side of the ledger. Symbolic or structural tackling of racial inequity may get a whole load of blowback, but equally abandoning it will be very unpopular in other quarters. https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/new-course-outlines-prompt-conversations-about-identity-race-in-seattle-classrooms-even-in-math/Seattle public schools proposal to implement ethnic studies into their math class Show nested quote +In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?” This is the crux of the issue - everything has to be seen through this lens of race, oppressors vs oppressed, privileged vs unprivilged, even in math class. It's what people are objecting to.
No it doesn’t, and isn’t.
In a U.S. history class, for example, histories of oppression, institutionalized racism, community organizing and resistance can be worked into the lesson plan, said Wayne Au, a professor at the University of Washington, Bothell, who has helped lead Seattle’s ethnic-studies initiative.
In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”
Example 1 yes, because that’s literally history. Example 2 well, no that’s silly, to a degree.
Is it even remotely being adopted nationally in a commensurate way to the outrage? No it just isn’t. And to be clear here I’m fully on board with the idea that implementing that within a maths lesson is ridiculous, which it is.
It absolutely, that aside doesn’t have to be seen through that lens, people just choose to do so. Attempts to redress problems may touch upon certain areas, the people proposing redress don’t do so through a framework of white people are awful, or merit isn’t important or whatever, for the most part.
I’ve never, personally felt under any kind of attack for the ‘crime’ of being a straight cis white male, at all, ever.
If other people want to feel that way it’s up to them, I don’t think it’s particularly backed up by anything tangible.
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On November 06 2021 09:19 WombaT wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2021 06:31 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 04:52 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 03:58 Mohdoo wrote:On November 06 2021 03:18 KwarK wrote:
It’s as real as all the other made up persecution fantasies the right circle jerk over on Facebook. There isn’t a national problem of politically motivated persecution of white children in schools to address, just as there isn’t one of Christian persecution or conservative persecution or anything else. I mean for fucks sake, one of the examples of persecution you listed was limited spaces at a high demand school being given out using a lottery system in the name of fairness. So long as wine moms believe CRT is trying to make their kids feel ashamed of slavery, its a done deal. We don't get to choose the electorate, we can just work around it. Shaming white people is not a winning strategy. Just to be clear, my position is that CRT is very good and important and also a really bad idea because if you lose the election none of it matters. What is palatable at this point though? Just put up with ridiculously sensitive sensibilities in perpetuity and don’t attempt to do anything ever? I think yes, if CRT was actually being pushed as is being billed and little Billy is being told he should be ashamed for being white by his teacher, then yes I’m in agreement on messaging 100% ‘So long as x believes’ is a good maxim to go by if there’s some problem in communication that can reasonably be solved by better communication. To a point that is where x’s beliefs aren’t particularly reasonably held even after attempts at clarification. It people wish to object to ‘CRT’ based on what’s actually proposed and implemented, that’s their prerogative but we’re in a position of defending policies that well, basically don’t exist in the first place in the way people conceive, and even when corrected they’ll still double down. I mean not just here, should we not have passed the ACA because people believed there’d be death panels for the elderly, or more contemporaneously should we not roll out a vaccine program with mandates because some people don’t believe in vaccines, or hell Covid existing? There is also the other side of the ledger. Symbolic or structural tackling of racial inequity may get a whole load of blowback, but equally abandoning it will be very unpopular in other quarters. https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/new-course-outlines-prompt-conversations-about-identity-race-in-seattle-classrooms-even-in-math/Seattle public schools proposal to implement ethnic studies into their math class Show nested quote +In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?” This is the crux of the issue - everything has to be seen through this lens of race, oppressors vs oppressed, privileged vs unprivilged, even in math class. It's what people are objecting to. No it doesn’t, and isn’t. In a U.S. history class, for example, histories of oppression, institutionalized racism, community organizing and resistance can be worked into the lesson plan, said Wayne Au, a professor at the University of Washington, Bothell, who has helped lead Seattle’s ethnic-studies initiative.
In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”Example 1 yes, because that’s literally history. Example 2 well, no that’s silly, to a degree. Is it even remotely being adopted nationally in a commensurate way to the outrage? No it just isn’t. And to be clear here I’m fully on board with the idea that implementing that within a maths lesson is ridiculous, which it is. It absolutely, that aside doesn’t have to be seen through that lens, people just choose to do so. Attempts to redress problems may touch upon certain areas, the people proposing redress don’t do so through a framework of white people are awful, or merit isn’t important or whatever, for the most part. I’ve never, personally felt under any kind of attack for the ‘crime’ of being a straight cis white male, at all, ever. If other people want to feel that way it’s up to them, I don’t think it’s particularly backed up by anything tangible.
I disagree that the 2nd example shouldn't be implemented in math lessons. Learning to read graphs is a textbook example of where and how it can and should be implemented.
Take this recent example from the famed Harry "Wizard of Odds" Enten from 538 on CNN
+ Show Spoiler +
Asking a class of math students: “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?”, “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?” and how this (and other options) could be an example would be an excellent way to engage a class of math students.
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On November 06 2021 09:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 06:31 BlackJack wrote:On November 06 2021 04:52 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 03:58 Mohdoo wrote:On November 06 2021 03:18 KwarK wrote:
It’s as real as all the other made up persecution fantasies the right circle jerk over on Facebook. There isn’t a national problem of politically motivated persecution of white children in schools to address, just as there isn’t one of Christian persecution or conservative persecution or anything else. I mean for fucks sake, one of the examples of persecution you listed was limited spaces at a high demand school being given out using a lottery system in the name of fairness. So long as wine moms believe CRT is trying to make their kids feel ashamed of slavery, its a done deal. We don't get to choose the electorate, we can just work around it. Shaming white people is not a winning strategy. Just to be clear, my position is that CRT is very good and important and also a really bad idea because if you lose the election none of it matters. What is palatable at this point though? Just put up with ridiculously sensitive sensibilities in perpetuity and don’t attempt to do anything ever? I think yes, if CRT was actually being pushed as is being billed and little Billy is being told he should be ashamed for being white by his teacher, then yes I’m in agreement on messaging 100% ‘So long as x believes’ is a good maxim to go by if there’s some problem in communication that can reasonably be solved by better communication. To a point that is where x’s beliefs aren’t particularly reasonably held even after attempts at clarification. It people wish to object to ‘CRT’ based on what’s actually proposed and implemented, that’s their prerogative but we’re in a position of defending policies that well, basically don’t exist in the first place in the way people conceive, and even when corrected they’ll still double down. I mean not just here, should we not have passed the ACA because people believed there’d be death panels for the elderly, or more contemporaneously should we not roll out a vaccine program with mandates because some people don’t believe in vaccines, or hell Covid existing? There is also the other side of the ledger. Symbolic or structural tackling of racial inequity may get a whole load of blowback, but equally abandoning it will be very unpopular in other quarters. https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/new-course-outlines-prompt-conversations-about-identity-race-in-seattle-classrooms-even-in-math/Seattle public schools proposal to implement ethnic studies into their math class In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?” This is the crux of the issue - everything has to be seen through this lens of race, oppressors vs oppressed, privileged vs unprivilged, even in math class. It's what people are objecting to. No it doesn’t, and isn’t. In a U.S. history class, for example, histories of oppression, institutionalized racism, community organizing and resistance can be worked into the lesson plan, said Wayne Au, a professor at the University of Washington, Bothell, who has helped lead Seattle’s ethnic-studies initiative.
In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”Example 1 yes, because that’s literally history. Example 2 well, no that’s silly, to a degree. Is it even remotely being adopted nationally in a commensurate way to the outrage? No it just isn’t. And to be clear here I’m fully on board with the idea that implementing that within a maths lesson is ridiculous, which it is. It absolutely, that aside doesn’t have to be seen through that lens, people just choose to do so. Attempts to redress problems may touch upon certain areas, the people proposing redress don’t do so through a framework of white people are awful, or merit isn’t important or whatever, for the most part. I’ve never, personally felt under any kind of attack for the ‘crime’ of being a straight cis white male, at all, ever. If other people want to feel that way it’s up to them, I don’t think it’s particularly backed up by anything tangible.
It absolutely is part of a larger national trend to promote equity in schools. Perhaps it's not commensurate to the level of outrage, but it is happening.
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Northern Ireland26262 Posts
On November 06 2021 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 09:19 WombaT wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2021 06:31 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 04:52 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 03:58 Mohdoo wrote:On November 06 2021 03:18 KwarK wrote:
It’s as real as all the other made up persecution fantasies the right circle jerk over on Facebook. There isn’t a national problem of politically motivated persecution of white children in schools to address, just as there isn’t one of Christian persecution or conservative persecution or anything else. I mean for fucks sake, one of the examples of persecution you listed was limited spaces at a high demand school being given out using a lottery system in the name of fairness. So long as wine moms believe CRT is trying to make their kids feel ashamed of slavery, its a done deal. We don't get to choose the electorate, we can just work around it. Shaming white people is not a winning strategy. Just to be clear, my position is that CRT is very good and important and also a really bad idea because if you lose the election none of it matters. What is palatable at this point though? Just put up with ridiculously sensitive sensibilities in perpetuity and don’t attempt to do anything ever? I think yes, if CRT was actually being pushed as is being billed and little Billy is being told he should be ashamed for being white by his teacher, then yes I’m in agreement on messaging 100% ‘So long as x believes’ is a good maxim to go by if there’s some problem in communication that can reasonably be solved by better communication. To a point that is where x’s beliefs aren’t particularly reasonably held even after attempts at clarification. It people wish to object to ‘CRT’ based on what’s actually proposed and implemented, that’s their prerogative but we’re in a position of defending policies that well, basically don’t exist in the first place in the way people conceive, and even when corrected they’ll still double down. I mean not just here, should we not have passed the ACA because people believed there’d be death panels for the elderly, or more contemporaneously should we not roll out a vaccine program with mandates because some people don’t believe in vaccines, or hell Covid existing? There is also the other side of the ledger. Symbolic or structural tackling of racial inequity may get a whole load of blowback, but equally abandoning it will be very unpopular in other quarters. https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/new-course-outlines-prompt-conversations-about-identity-race-in-seattle-classrooms-even-in-math/Seattle public schools proposal to implement ethnic studies into their math class Show nested quote +In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?” This is the crux of the issue - everything has to be seen through this lens of race, oppressors vs oppressed, privileged vs unprivilged, even in math class. It's what people are objecting to. No it doesn’t, and isn’t. In a U.S. history class, for example, histories of oppression, institutionalized racism, community organizing and resistance can be worked into the lesson plan, said Wayne Au, a professor at the University of Washington, Bothell, who has helped lead Seattle’s ethnic-studies initiative.
In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”Example 1 yes, because that’s literally history. Example 2 well, no that’s silly, to a degree. Is it even remotely being adopted nationally in a commensurate way to the outrage? No it just isn’t. And to be clear here I’m fully on board with the idea that implementing that within a maths lesson is ridiculous, which it is. It absolutely, that aside doesn’t have to be seen through that lens, people just choose to do so. Attempts to redress problems may touch upon certain areas, the people proposing redress don’t do so through a framework of white people are awful, or merit isn’t important or whatever, for the most part. I’ve never, personally felt under any kind of attack for the ‘crime’ of being a straight cis white male, at all, ever. If other people want to feel that way it’s up to them, I don’t think it’s particularly backed up by anything tangible. I disagree that the 2nd example shouldn't be implemented in math lessons. Learning to read graphs is a textbook example of where and how it can and should be implemented. Take this recent example from the famed Harry "Wizard of Odds" Enten from 538 on CNN + Show Spoiler +Asking a class of math students: “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?”, “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?” and how this (and other options) could be an example would be an excellent way to engage a class of math students.
Point taken, and that would be an example of combining learning in different areas and pulling it together, which IMO is a sensible approach educationally, and such cross-linkage should be more widely adopted
I was merely countering the ‘people can’t learn maths because numbers are racist now’ talking point.
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Northern Ireland26262 Posts
On November 06 2021 10:03 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 09:19 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 06:31 BlackJack wrote:On November 06 2021 04:52 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 03:58 Mohdoo wrote:On November 06 2021 03:18 KwarK wrote:
It’s as real as all the other made up persecution fantasies the right circle jerk over on Facebook. There isn’t a national problem of politically motivated persecution of white children in schools to address, just as there isn’t one of Christian persecution or conservative persecution or anything else. I mean for fucks sake, one of the examples of persecution you listed was limited spaces at a high demand school being given out using a lottery system in the name of fairness. So long as wine moms believe CRT is trying to make their kids feel ashamed of slavery, its a done deal. We don't get to choose the electorate, we can just work around it. Shaming white people is not a winning strategy. Just to be clear, my position is that CRT is very good and important and also a really bad idea because if you lose the election none of it matters. What is palatable at this point though? Just put up with ridiculously sensitive sensibilities in perpetuity and don’t attempt to do anything ever? I think yes, if CRT was actually being pushed as is being billed and little Billy is being told he should be ashamed for being white by his teacher, then yes I’m in agreement on messaging 100% ‘So long as x believes’ is a good maxim to go by if there’s some problem in communication that can reasonably be solved by better communication. To a point that is where x’s beliefs aren’t particularly reasonably held even after attempts at clarification. It people wish to object to ‘CRT’ based on what’s actually proposed and implemented, that’s their prerogative but we’re in a position of defending policies that well, basically don’t exist in the first place in the way people conceive, and even when corrected they’ll still double down. I mean not just here, should we not have passed the ACA because people believed there’d be death panels for the elderly, or more contemporaneously should we not roll out a vaccine program with mandates because some people don’t believe in vaccines, or hell Covid existing? There is also the other side of the ledger. Symbolic or structural tackling of racial inequity may get a whole load of blowback, but equally abandoning it will be very unpopular in other quarters. https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/new-course-outlines-prompt-conversations-about-identity-race-in-seattle-classrooms-even-in-math/Seattle public schools proposal to implement ethnic studies into their math class In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?” This is the crux of the issue - everything has to be seen through this lens of race, oppressors vs oppressed, privileged vs unprivilged, even in math class. It's what people are objecting to. No it doesn’t, and isn’t. In a U.S. history class, for example, histories of oppression, institutionalized racism, community organizing and resistance can be worked into the lesson plan, said Wayne Au, a professor at the University of Washington, Bothell, who has helped lead Seattle’s ethnic-studies initiative.
In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”Example 1 yes, because that’s literally history. Example 2 well, no that’s silly, to a degree. Is it even remotely being adopted nationally in a commensurate way to the outrage? No it just isn’t. And to be clear here I’m fully on board with the idea that implementing that within a maths lesson is ridiculous, which it is. It absolutely, that aside doesn’t have to be seen through that lens, people just choose to do so. Attempts to redress problems may touch upon certain areas, the people proposing redress don’t do so through a framework of white people are awful, or merit isn’t important or whatever, for the most part. I’ve never, personally felt under any kind of attack for the ‘crime’ of being a straight cis white male, at all, ever. If other people want to feel that way it’s up to them, I don’t think it’s particularly backed up by anything tangible. It absolutely is part of a larger national trend to promote equity in schools. Perhaps it's not commensurate to the level of outrage, but it is happening.
And what is the problem in promoting equity?
It folks have issues in this domain go for it, but what are the objections and what are the specifics and why are you annoyed?
If your pissed off that CRT is a huge part of the curriculum well, when it literally isn’t a part of the curriculum your point is fucking silly and redundant.
The argument seemingly being that we placate these people with positions that on examination are completely out of kilter wiry actual reality.
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BIF (the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill) just passed the House. Most of the Squad voted no but it was counteracted with more than enough GOP votes (13 as of now). It already passed the Senate so it goes to Biden for signing. At least Biden gets one major legislative victory after a rather unpleasant week of elections.
This somewhat violates the initial plan to pass both BIF and BBB simultaneously, but Biden was pressing hard for a win it seems and asked for BIF to get passed today. The moderate Dems in the House signed an agreement that they'll vote for BBB when they get the CBO's analysis in a few weeks.
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Not sure I'd call it a major victory to pass a bill that was bipartisan but that proved to be a poison pill within the party. Feels more like a Pyrrhic victory all things considered.
I expect the other bill to either be shelved entirely or be further heavily neutered since there's no more ability to use the bipartisan one as leverage. But I guess that already was the trajectory of this all.
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The BIF won't matter a whit for 2022, and will certainly be overshadowed by the GOP running against the reconciliation bill that 13 of them just made it easier to pass. Not that I expected better of these Republicans, the defectors were pretty much exactly who you would expect. Still, so dumb of them to play along. Winning future elections is far less meaningful if you don't anything with the votes you have.
this vote is pretty much what every conservative complains about the GOP for. uselessness at important moments.
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On November 06 2021 10:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 10:03 BlackJack wrote:On November 06 2021 09:19 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 06:31 BlackJack wrote:On November 06 2021 04:52 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 03:58 Mohdoo wrote:On November 06 2021 03:18 KwarK wrote:
It’s as real as all the other made up persecution fantasies the right circle jerk over on Facebook. There isn’t a national problem of politically motivated persecution of white children in schools to address, just as there isn’t one of Christian persecution or conservative persecution or anything else. I mean for fucks sake, one of the examples of persecution you listed was limited spaces at a high demand school being given out using a lottery system in the name of fairness. So long as wine moms believe CRT is trying to make their kids feel ashamed of slavery, its a done deal. We don't get to choose the electorate, we can just work around it. Shaming white people is not a winning strategy. Just to be clear, my position is that CRT is very good and important and also a really bad idea because if you lose the election none of it matters. What is palatable at this point though? Just put up with ridiculously sensitive sensibilities in perpetuity and don’t attempt to do anything ever? I think yes, if CRT was actually being pushed as is being billed and little Billy is being told he should be ashamed for being white by his teacher, then yes I’m in agreement on messaging 100% ‘So long as x believes’ is a good maxim to go by if there’s some problem in communication that can reasonably be solved by better communication. To a point that is where x’s beliefs aren’t particularly reasonably held even after attempts at clarification. It people wish to object to ‘CRT’ based on what’s actually proposed and implemented, that’s their prerogative but we’re in a position of defending policies that well, basically don’t exist in the first place in the way people conceive, and even when corrected they’ll still double down. I mean not just here, should we not have passed the ACA because people believed there’d be death panels for the elderly, or more contemporaneously should we not roll out a vaccine program with mandates because some people don’t believe in vaccines, or hell Covid existing? There is also the other side of the ledger. Symbolic or structural tackling of racial inequity may get a whole load of blowback, but equally abandoning it will be very unpopular in other quarters. https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/new-course-outlines-prompt-conversations-about-identity-race-in-seattle-classrooms-even-in-math/Seattle public schools proposal to implement ethnic studies into their math class In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?” This is the crux of the issue - everything has to be seen through this lens of race, oppressors vs oppressed, privileged vs unprivilged, even in math class. It's what people are objecting to. No it doesn’t, and isn’t. In a U.S. history class, for example, histories of oppression, institutionalized racism, community organizing and resistance can be worked into the lesson plan, said Wayne Au, a professor at the University of Washington, Bothell, who has helped lead Seattle’s ethnic-studies initiative.
In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”Example 1 yes, because that’s literally history. Example 2 well, no that’s silly, to a degree. Is it even remotely being adopted nationally in a commensurate way to the outrage? No it just isn’t. And to be clear here I’m fully on board with the idea that implementing that within a maths lesson is ridiculous, which it is. It absolutely, that aside doesn’t have to be seen through that lens, people just choose to do so. Attempts to redress problems may touch upon certain areas, the people proposing redress don’t do so through a framework of white people are awful, or merit isn’t important or whatever, for the most part. I’ve never, personally felt under any kind of attack for the ‘crime’ of being a straight cis white male, at all, ever. If other people want to feel that way it’s up to them, I don’t think it’s particularly backed up by anything tangible. It absolutely is part of a larger national trend to promote equity in schools. Perhaps it's not commensurate to the level of outrage, but it is happening. And what is the problem in promoting equity? It folks have issues in this domain go for it, but what are the objections and what are the specifics and why are you annoyed? If your pissed off that CRT is a huge part of the curriculum well, when it literally isn’t a part of the curriculum your point is fucking silly and redundant. The argument seemingly being that we placate these people with positions that on examination are completely out of kilter wiry actual reality.
My point is it's not unreasonable to expect your kid to learn math in math class instead of how math is used as a tool to oppress people. Parents are rightly annoyed and they showed it at the polls.
Also not sure why you are still calling it CRT when we all agreed that it's not CRT.
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Norway28742 Posts
While I don't know how it is in the US - it seems like you have less of a national curriculum(?), interdisciplinarity is a growing trend in Norway. Math teachers are instructed to not only teach math - but to teach math that can be applicable outside math. (Here, we're operating with three interdisciplinary topics - 'sustainable development', 'democracy and citizenship', and 'health and life skills'. This is new as of 2020 - and people are crunching their brains a bit in how to go about it.)
Personally, I like this development, but it requires teachers to cooperate and coordinate their lesson plans in a way that is likely to be new to many of them. I'm not really commenting on whether the questions '“Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”' are good examples - but I could totally see these two be valid and useful interdisciplinary topics branching out to both math and sociology at the same time.
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I'd be really interested in learning if these "math is racist" faux-CRT math lessons are based on new things actually outlined in school/state curricula, or if these lessons are created by individual math teachers attempting to come up with new applications for teaching general content and skills. Most American math curricula are very broad and allow a decent amount of autonomy for the teacher in terms of figuring out how the content should be best learned and the skills best developed in one's classroom.
For example, it's much more likely for a math curriculum to say "at around this grade level, students should begin to develop number sense in regards to percentages, decimals, and fractions, such as converting between the three, understanding mixed numbers and improper fractions, and learning about percent increase and percent decrease", and then just let the teacher figure out how they want to teach those things and what applications to use. If a teacher decides to give a data-driven lesson about how different groups of people might experience percent-increases or percent-decreases based on their identity (certain groups being charged more by car salespeople or loan officers on average, certain groups being offered less money for the same job on average, etc.), then the recognition/blame and costs/benefits of that lesson lie on the shoulders of that specific teacher.
Some teachers have really great, thoughtful, applicable lessons, some don't bother trying to make the math "current", and some are willing to experiment with new strategies and ideas and context to see if they'll get better results. We could talk about the merits of a hypothetical, specific math lesson plan created by a single teacher who's interested in simultaneously discussing equity while meeting a specific content or skill component in the broader curriculum, but that's very different than entire schools and states revamping their math departments to teach white kids that they should feel bad about themselves.
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On November 06 2021 19:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I'd be really interested in learning if these "math is racist" faux-CRT math lessons are based on new things actually outlined in school/state curricula, or if these lessons are created by individual math teachers attempting to come up with new applications for teaching general content and skills. Most American math curricula are very broad and allow a decent amount of autonomy for the teacher in terms of figuring out how the content should be best learned and the skills best developed in one's classroom.
For example, it's much more likely for a math curriculum to say "at around this grade level, students should begin to develop number sense in regards to percentages, decimals, and fractions, such as converting between the three, understanding mixed numbers and improper fractions, and learning about percent increase and percent decrease", and then just let the teacher figure out how they want to teach those things and what applications to use. If a teacher decides to give a data-driven lesson about how different groups of people might experience percent-increases or percent-decreases based on their identity (certain groups being charged more by car salespeople or loan officers on average, certain groups being offered less money for the same job on average, etc.), then the recognition/blame and costs/benefits of that lesson lie on the shoulders of that specific teacher.
Some teachers have really great, thoughtful, applicable lessons, some don't bother trying to make the math "current", and some are willing to experiment with new strategies and ideas and context to see if they'll get better results. We could talk about the merits of a hypothetical, specific math lesson plan created by a single teacher who's interested in simultaneously discussing equity while meeting a specific content or skill component in the broader curriculum, but that's very different than entire schools and states revamping their math departments to teach white kids that they should feel bad about themselves.
I agree. Finland is famous for having the best education system in the world? Why? Because they put a lot of effort of making teachers proud of their profession and give them freedom to teach as they see fit.
Politicians like to make changes in education, often to fit their agenda, and I think the left and right wing can be equally guilty: left for example by "value" based teaching and hampering the development of the best students by wanting everyone to be equally good. The right might overemphasize test results and hard, measurable skills.
Reading and understanding statistics should be an important part of math, but I don't see why values like equality need to be a part of it. Misuse of numbers to fit an agenda happens everywhere. The only important values should be seeing through bullshit and forming a qualified opinion.
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Northern Ireland26262 Posts
On November 06 2021 17:18 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 10:15 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 10:03 BlackJack wrote:On November 06 2021 09:19 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 06:31 BlackJack wrote:On November 06 2021 04:52 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2021 03:58 Mohdoo wrote:On November 06 2021 03:18 KwarK wrote:
It’s as real as all the other made up persecution fantasies the right circle jerk over on Facebook. There isn’t a national problem of politically motivated persecution of white children in schools to address, just as there isn’t one of Christian persecution or conservative persecution or anything else. I mean for fucks sake, one of the examples of persecution you listed was limited spaces at a high demand school being given out using a lottery system in the name of fairness. So long as wine moms believe CRT is trying to make their kids feel ashamed of slavery, its a done deal. We don't get to choose the electorate, we can just work around it. Shaming white people is not a winning strategy. Just to be clear, my position is that CRT is very good and important and also a really bad idea because if you lose the election none of it matters. What is palatable at this point though? Just put up with ridiculously sensitive sensibilities in perpetuity and don’t attempt to do anything ever? I think yes, if CRT was actually being pushed as is being billed and little Billy is being told he should be ashamed for being white by his teacher, then yes I’m in agreement on messaging 100% ‘So long as x believes’ is a good maxim to go by if there’s some problem in communication that can reasonably be solved by better communication. To a point that is where x’s beliefs aren’t particularly reasonably held even after attempts at clarification. It people wish to object to ‘CRT’ based on what’s actually proposed and implemented, that’s their prerogative but we’re in a position of defending policies that well, basically don’t exist in the first place in the way people conceive, and even when corrected they’ll still double down. I mean not just here, should we not have passed the ACA because people believed there’d be death panels for the elderly, or more contemporaneously should we not roll out a vaccine program with mandates because some people don’t believe in vaccines, or hell Covid existing? There is also the other side of the ledger. Symbolic or structural tackling of racial inequity may get a whole load of blowback, but equally abandoning it will be very unpopular in other quarters. https://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/new-course-outlines-prompt-conversations-about-identity-race-in-seattle-classrooms-even-in-math/Seattle public schools proposal to implement ethnic studies into their math class In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?” This is the crux of the issue - everything has to be seen through this lens of race, oppressors vs oppressed, privileged vs unprivilged, even in math class. It's what people are objecting to. No it doesn’t, and isn’t. In a U.S. history class, for example, histories of oppression, institutionalized racism, community organizing and resistance can be worked into the lesson plan, said Wayne Au, a professor at the University of Washington, Bothell, who has helped lead Seattle’s ethnic-studies initiative.
In math, lessons are more theoretical. Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”Example 1 yes, because that’s literally history. Example 2 well, no that’s silly, to a degree. Is it even remotely being adopted nationally in a commensurate way to the outrage? No it just isn’t. And to be clear here I’m fully on board with the idea that implementing that within a maths lesson is ridiculous, which it is. It absolutely, that aside doesn’t have to be seen through that lens, people just choose to do so. Attempts to redress problems may touch upon certain areas, the people proposing redress don’t do so through a framework of white people are awful, or merit isn’t important or whatever, for the most part. I’ve never, personally felt under any kind of attack for the ‘crime’ of being a straight cis white male, at all, ever. If other people want to feel that way it’s up to them, I don’t think it’s particularly backed up by anything tangible. It absolutely is part of a larger national trend to promote equity in schools. Perhaps it's not commensurate to the level of outrage, but it is happening. And what is the problem in promoting equity? It folks have issues in this domain go for it, but what are the objections and what are the specifics and why are you annoyed? If your pissed off that CRT is a huge part of the curriculum well, when it literally isn’t a part of the curriculum your point is fucking silly and redundant. The argument seemingly being that we placate these people with positions that on examination are completely out of kilter wiry actual reality. My point is it's not unreasonable to expect your kid to learn math in math class instead of how math is used as a tool to oppress people. Parents are rightly annoyed and they showed it at the polls. Also not sure why you are still calling it CRT when we all agreed that it's not CRT.
I will use CRT as a shorthand for a collection of grievances people have, but yes point taken.
I think that would be an unreasonable maths lesson. As Drone and DPB have mentioned the US seems to have a less rigid curriculum that leaves a lot of room for individual teacher interpretation.
Where they do transgress and upset parents, yes absolutely they may have gone overboard and have to correct course, no disagreements there.
I just feel the jump that many people are making to assert that this occurs on a large scale and that the left ‘think maths is racist’ is a giant jump and not one I’m seeing much evidence for.
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Northern Ireland26262 Posts
On November 06 2021 20:29 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2021 19:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I'd be really interested in learning if these "math is racist" faux-CRT math lessons are based on new things actually outlined in school/state curricula, or if these lessons are created by individual math teachers attempting to come up with new applications for teaching general content and skills. Most American math curricula are very broad and allow a decent amount of autonomy for the teacher in terms of figuring out how the content should be best learned and the skills best developed in one's classroom.
For example, it's much more likely for a math curriculum to say "at around this grade level, students should begin to develop number sense in regards to percentages, decimals, and fractions, such as converting between the three, understanding mixed numbers and improper fractions, and learning about percent increase and percent decrease", and then just let the teacher figure out how they want to teach those things and what applications to use. If a teacher decides to give a data-driven lesson about how different groups of people might experience percent-increases or percent-decreases based on their identity (certain groups being charged more by car salespeople or loan officers on average, certain groups being offered less money for the same job on average, etc.), then the recognition/blame and costs/benefits of that lesson lie on the shoulders of that specific teacher.
Some teachers have really great, thoughtful, applicable lessons, some don't bother trying to make the math "current", and some are willing to experiment with new strategies and ideas and context to see if they'll get better results. We could talk about the merits of a hypothetical, specific math lesson plan created by a single teacher who's interested in simultaneously discussing equity while meeting a specific content or skill component in the broader curriculum, but that's very different than entire schools and states revamping their math departments to teach white kids that they should feel bad about themselves. I agree. Finland is famous for having the best education system in the world? Why? Because they put a lot of effort of making teachers proud of their profession and give them freedom to teach as they see fit. Politicians like to make changes in education, often to fit their agenda, and I think the left and right wing can be equally guilty: left for example by "value" based teaching and hampering the development of the best students by wanting everyone to be equally good. The right might overemphasize test results and hard, measurable skills. Reading and understanding statistics should be an important part of math, but I don't see why values like equality need to be a part of it. Misuse of numbers to fit an agenda happens everywhere. The only important values should be seeing through bullshit and forming a qualified opinion.
I don’t think one can fully grasp statistical fuckery without bringing in the real world examples and complexity, and it can be quite an interesting way to deliver a multifaceted lesson.
Not just politicians, people in general should, 99% of the time defer giving their opinion on education as it’s completely based in feeling and no evidence whatsoever.
What are we wanting to accomplish with education and, once settled, based on our current best understanding how do people learn best.
Simple when written like that, but a rather non-trivial problem and one honestly I don’t think many places have seriously attempted either, to my knowledge.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://external-preview.redd.it/OgbG3YhlP0NZXQZ5Su1MJ7GbQNjtFa68PORAXe7cYUw.jpg?auto=webp&s=85d358484962e7e1a8e55afdc860535f26a76e52)
