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On August 15 2021 21:49 Purressure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 21:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On August 15 2021 17:49 Purressure wrote:The use of flamethrowers for example, when you know that in a specific cave there are 20 fighters hiding and waiting, why should we not use them? Why use flamethrowers when a bomb to collapse the cave is better and safer? You think that you can just saunter up to a cave and flamethrower it or something? You don't know that 20 fighters are hiding and waiting in a specific cave, that's the point, real life isn't a hollywood movie. Why would they be in a cave instead of out in the open with the rest of the population? USA has already proven to happily bomb with drones (because drones are cheap and have high availability) with 90% civilian casualties. It's a large mountainous region, and the collobarist government set up under the American invaders are corrupt and refuse to compromise with local authorities. Guess I'll just roll my eyes and ignore the majority of what you said since you clearly haven't paid attention, which is fine. One of the issues, indeed, was the vast amount of corruption. Something at a scale we really didn't have a solution for and it shows. Just hoping now we won't have another Benghazi at our hands with how things are evolving at this very moment.
Guess I'll roll my eyes at your fake situation (fighters hiding in caves when the Taliban have always controlled large areas of rugged land even after their defeat some 20 years ago), lack of understanding the correct solution to this hypothetical and fake solution (flamethrowers!) and a strange belief that a non-existent restriction to small arm tactics is the problem that lead to the Taliban not being defeated instead of macro geopolitical strategy.
Anyways, if anybody is wondering why the ANA collapsed so fast, it was apparently due to the Taliban, which now is more multi-tribal than in the past, offering clemency to all opposition that retreated and offered power sharing deals to all regional authorities and are known to keep such promises. Whether they will keep to their word remains to be seen in the wake of such quick collapse.
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On August 17 2021 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2021 03:55 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:20 Oukka wrote:On August 17 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:00 JimmiC wrote:
I think the goal should be for them to not be puppet governments. The issues though are that generally dictators have done a good job of creating a power vacuum outside of their loyal inner circle. Also, the whole apparatus tends to be corrupt and it is not realistic to fire everyone and start from scratch. So instead the goal tends to be to allow the people to continue to be corrupt but follow a new top person which does not end up helping the masses and leads them to "not care" who is at the top. If the last 20 years have taught us anything, it’s that the Middle East needs dictators. It is what works for them. Our democracy has no place there. They don’t want their women in schools. They don’t want science. Find a way to extract value from them through the dictators and move on. We don’t need to give up on imperialism, just need a more realistic method. Ask the women in there. Or I guess ask anyone in a situation where they don't have to fear violence if they speak up. If they want Taliban they surely be able to elect them also in a democratic and free election. I find it very lazy to shrug it off as something the majority of the people there want. The speed with which the entire Afghanistan "army" joined the Taliban speaks volumes. This entire thing was a farce. Regardless of what you think about which women actually want freedom, an enormous amount of Afghanistan doesn't want it. This issue is already resolved. There isn't anything left to discuss here. I don't see any world where the last week in Afghanistan (I'm just writing Afg from here on because its just fucking annoying to type) shows any perspective other than "Afg fully and completely rejected western beliefs". If there was annnnny chance of our idealistic world applying to Afg, it wouldn't have looked like this. I don't see how you can look at the current Afg situation and wonder if maybe there is a path to giving women freedom. Its in the dirt, buried, 100 meters underground, with cement on top. And then they built a sky scraper on top of that cement. Edit: if we want to help women in Afg, we should help them move somewhere else. Trying to “fix” afg is a fool’s errand. May as well try to drink the Pacific Ocean. Equal chance of success I mean…I think there’s some more insights that can be gleaned from this discussion. Based on the source linked earlier, it seems the main reason ANA defected so quickly is because the Taliban were destined to win barring foreign assistance. The Afghan people seem done with fighting and want to just move on, no matter what form that takes. I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with the Western cultural imperialism thing we had going on there, but if the Taliban decides to squash it I doubt the populace will take up arms to fight for it.
I don’t know the specifics of the nation-building approaches that were done, but it seems they were very top-down and more interested in quashing resistance than actual nation-building. It’s very conceivable though, especially in hindsight, to picture an alternate timeline where this whole thing works out (integrate Taliban into unified government early, more outreach to the rural areas, etc.). I wouldn’t throw Afghanistan into the basket of irredeemables and deplorables. EDIT - That being said, moving forward I don’t see a path for freedom for Afghan women anytime soon. You're right that there is nuance here that we technically don't know. Regardless, we DO know that there is no army in Afg that is willing to fight for women's rights. Regardless of how or why they all defected and surrendered, they did. The Taliban now has the entire Afg military under its wing. If the situation wasn't hopeless before (it was), it is now hopeless. When I said the issue is settled, my main point is that the ship sailed. I think it is totttttttttttally insane that there exist people who are like "So how can we salvage this and keep women in school?". It is so incredibly naive and misguided.Other potential things for people who want to have Afg women in schools to explore, if they are looking for impossible things to pat themselves on the back for supporting: - Lets get more abortion clinics in rural alabama - Lets enact reparations across the south
While I’m in agreement with you for the most part that there’s not much we can do, international political pressure is a thing that exists. As a country, we could attempt to negotiate with the new Afghan government and either provide some sort of economic incentive for playing nice with us and guaranteeing safety of diplomats/allowing observers in to report on whether they keep their word about women in schools, or hit them with heavy sanctions/embargoes to accomplish the same effect. If the US followed the proper channels to do this, we’d likely have a lot of international support.
As a voter in the US, we have the power to raise awareness of these kinds of potential policies through discussion with other voters and writing to politicians, and voting for those who seem to prioritize said policies. It’s not a complete waste of time to talk about these things.
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Northern Ireland26036 Posts
On August 17 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2021 03:00 JimmiC wrote:
I think the goal should be for them to not be puppet governments. The issues though are that generally dictators have done a good job of creating a power vacuum outside of their loyal inner circle. Also, the whole apparatus tends to be corrupt and it is not realistic to fire everyone and start from scratch. So instead the goal tends to be to allow the people to continue to be corrupt but follow a new top person which does not end up helping the masses and leads them to "not care" who is at the top. If the last 20 years have taught us anything, it’s that the Middle East needs dictators. It is what works for them. Our democracy has no place there. They don’t want their women in schools. They don’t want science. Find a way to extract value from them through the dictators and move on. We don’t need to give up on imperialism, just need a more realistic method.
Seems awfully bleak, are you playing devil’s advocate for a Western Imperialist caricature?
I’m not sure that’s the lesson at all, although if we are to take a snapshot of this particular area at this particular point in time, yeah there’s plenty of validity to that.
If I were to begin a courtship by talking about extracting value from her, I imagine it would cease quite promptly, possibly with a restraining order. It’s a very innately exploitative kind of wording, even if it’s true most of us get value out of a good relationship.
You want a more peaceful and prosperous Middle East that’s in your ultimate best interests, well go build it. Show folks they’re an equivalent partner in a mutually beneficial exercise, don’t try to exploit them and then act confused when they’re not buying what you’re selling.
While it’s not as crudely simple as ‘do this other thing that worked in the past’, given differing calculuses the Marshall Plan and post WW2 reconstruction were absurdly successful foreign policy successes not just for the US, but elsewhere (if we’re sidestepping then whole hegemony of US capitalism thing which is another conversation). Until the ugly head of ‘oh, these guys might outstrip us’ reared its head, the US/China relationship has been pretty mutually beneficial too.
Most deviations from that into ‘be our national security vassal state’ territory have been absolute bloody disasters.
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On August 17 2021 04:21 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2021 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:55 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:20 Oukka wrote:On August 17 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:00 JimmiC wrote:
I think the goal should be for them to not be puppet governments. The issues though are that generally dictators have done a good job of creating a power vacuum outside of their loyal inner circle. Also, the whole apparatus tends to be corrupt and it is not realistic to fire everyone and start from scratch. So instead the goal tends to be to allow the people to continue to be corrupt but follow a new top person which does not end up helping the masses and leads them to "not care" who is at the top. If the last 20 years have taught us anything, it’s that the Middle East needs dictators. It is what works for them. Our democracy has no place there. They don’t want their women in schools. They don’t want science. Find a way to extract value from them through the dictators and move on. We don’t need to give up on imperialism, just need a more realistic method. Ask the women in there. Or I guess ask anyone in a situation where they don't have to fear violence if they speak up. If they want Taliban they surely be able to elect them also in a democratic and free election. I find it very lazy to shrug it off as something the majority of the people there want. The speed with which the entire Afghanistan "army" joined the Taliban speaks volumes. This entire thing was a farce. Regardless of what you think about which women actually want freedom, an enormous amount of Afghanistan doesn't want it. This issue is already resolved. There isn't anything left to discuss here. I don't see any world where the last week in Afghanistan (I'm just writing Afg from here on because its just fucking annoying to type) shows any perspective other than "Afg fully and completely rejected western beliefs". If there was annnnny chance of our idealistic world applying to Afg, it wouldn't have looked like this. I don't see how you can look at the current Afg situation and wonder if maybe there is a path to giving women freedom. Its in the dirt, buried, 100 meters underground, with cement on top. And then they built a sky scraper on top of that cement. Edit: if we want to help women in Afg, we should help them move somewhere else. Trying to “fix” afg is a fool’s errand. May as well try to drink the Pacific Ocean. Equal chance of success I mean…I think there’s some more insights that can be gleaned from this discussion. Based on the source linked earlier, it seems the main reason ANA defected so quickly is because the Taliban were destined to win barring foreign assistance. The Afghan people seem done with fighting and want to just move on, no matter what form that takes. I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with the Western cultural imperialism thing we had going on there, but if the Taliban decides to squash it I doubt the populace will take up arms to fight for it.
I don’t know the specifics of the nation-building approaches that were done, but it seems they were very top-down and more interested in quashing resistance than actual nation-building. It’s very conceivable though, especially in hindsight, to picture an alternate timeline where this whole thing works out (integrate Taliban into unified government early, more outreach to the rural areas, etc.). I wouldn’t throw Afghanistan into the basket of irredeemables and deplorables. EDIT - That being said, moving forward I don’t see a path for freedom for Afghan women anytime soon. You're right that there is nuance here that we technically don't know. Regardless, we DO know that there is no army in Afg that is willing to fight for women's rights. Regardless of how or why they all defected and surrendered, they did. The Taliban now has the entire Afg military under its wing. If the situation wasn't hopeless before (it was), it is now hopeless. When I said the issue is settled, my main point is that the ship sailed. I think it is totttttttttttally insane that there exist people who are like "So how can we salvage this and keep women in school?". It is so incredibly naive and misguided.Other potential things for people who want to have Afg women in schools to explore, if they are looking for impossible things to pat themselves on the back for supporting: - Lets get more abortion clinics in rural alabama - Lets enact reparations across the south While I’m in agreement with you for the most part that there’s not much we can do, international political pressure is a thing that exists. As a country, we could attempt to negotiate with the new Afghan government and either provide some sort of economic incentive for playing nice with us and guaranteeing safety of diplomats/allowing observers in to report on whether they keep their word about women in schools, or hit them with heavy sanctions/embargoes to accomplish the same effect. If the US followed the proper channels to do this, we’d likely have a lot of international support.As a voter in the US, we have the power to raise awareness of these kinds of potential policies through discussion with other voters and writing to politicians, and voting for those who seem to prioritize said policies. It’s not a complete waste of time to talk about these things.
Why would they ever in a million years decide to re-write their culture when they just proved their resolve like 12 hours ago? This isn't some fuzzy issue for Afg. They know exactly how they feel and they fought for 20 years to get what they want. The Afg military was a farce. They didn't believe any of our democracy shit. They just played nice until we left, surrendered and tada, now the Taliban is armed to the teeth (again). Or maybe they did care, but not enough to fight for it. Either way, ain't nobody fighting for women in Afg now that the Taliban has complete and total control of a huge military now.
I think we need to be very clear: A small % of Afg want any of these things we are trying to give them. They fought for 20 years to prove that. Why would we push the issue further?
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I think the real issue is that we couldn't learn anything from the fall of the USSR. As someone said above, dictators will put their friends who are equally corrupts at the head of any industry/public services. It's all cronies from the way down, so democracy will not work as the people only know equally garbage politicians.
How do you even fix that ? How long does it take to wipe out most of the people who wormed into the system ?
Do you just have to bet on the next people's savior and hope he's not a psycho down the road like mbs ?
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On August 17 2021 03:55 Ryzel wrote:
I don’t know the specifics of the nation-building approaches that were done, but it seems they were very top-down and more interested in quashing resistance than actual nation-building. It’s very conceivable though, especially in hindsight, to picture an alternate timeline where this whole thing works out (integrate Taliban into unified government early, more outreach to the rural areas, etc.). I wouldn’t throw Afghanistan into the basket of irredeemables and deplorables.
EDIT - That being said, moving forward I don’t see a path for freedom for Afghan women anytime soon.
I've got another piece to contribute for you then.
https://archive.is/K04ON
The most important takeaway is, IMO:
The Papers’ greatest value is to provide an impressionistic portrait of the generational worldview and shaping illusions of an American elite—Democrats and Republicans alike on both sides of the civilian-military divide—who responded to a long public record of defeats, blunders and missed opportunities in Afghanistan by doubling down. In an interview with sigar, a retired Navy SEAL who served in the White House under both Bush and Obama reflected, “collectively the system is incapable of taking a step back to question basic assumptions.” That “system” is best understood, not simply as a military or foreign policy body, but as a euphemism for the habits and institutions of an American ruling class that has exhibited an almost limitless collective capacity for deflecting the costs of failure.
This was a sandbox for our "important people" to try imposing their various whims and fashions about the ideas of government. What isn't surprising is that it failed, its that most of them will probably get promoted (or already have been). Because, unfortunately, these US institutions at DOD and State don't actually reward success, they reward being fashionable.
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Any analysis of what has occurred in Afghanistan that fails to mention the billions of dollars that have been transferred to private actors as a part of our warmongering is startlingly incomplete. The idea that elites are abjectly blind or taken unawares by the limits of their own competence is worthless for its want of a material analysis of what goes into waging war in the first place. None of this was the stuff of whims, it was the stuff of incredible wealth transfers and the politics of trans-national exploitation. It really is as simple as asking "Cui bono?" a question the majority of talking heads do not ask for reasons I would hope are obvious.
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Norway28707 Posts
On August 17 2021 04:29 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2021 04:21 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:55 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:20 Oukka wrote:On August 17 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:00 JimmiC wrote:
I think the goal should be for them to not be puppet governments. The issues though are that generally dictators have done a good job of creating a power vacuum outside of their loyal inner circle. Also, the whole apparatus tends to be corrupt and it is not realistic to fire everyone and start from scratch. So instead the goal tends to be to allow the people to continue to be corrupt but follow a new top person which does not end up helping the masses and leads them to "not care" who is at the top. If the last 20 years have taught us anything, it’s that the Middle East needs dictators. It is what works for them. Our democracy has no place there. They don’t want their women in schools. They don’t want science. Find a way to extract value from them through the dictators and move on. We don’t need to give up on imperialism, just need a more realistic method. Ask the women in there. Or I guess ask anyone in a situation where they don't have to fear violence if they speak up. If they want Taliban they surely be able to elect them also in a democratic and free election. I find it very lazy to shrug it off as something the majority of the people there want. The speed with which the entire Afghanistan "army" joined the Taliban speaks volumes. This entire thing was a farce. Regardless of what you think about which women actually want freedom, an enormous amount of Afghanistan doesn't want it. This issue is already resolved. There isn't anything left to discuss here. I don't see any world where the last week in Afghanistan (I'm just writing Afg from here on because its just fucking annoying to type) shows any perspective other than "Afg fully and completely rejected western beliefs". If there was annnnny chance of our idealistic world applying to Afg, it wouldn't have looked like this. I don't see how you can look at the current Afg situation and wonder if maybe there is a path to giving women freedom. Its in the dirt, buried, 100 meters underground, with cement on top. And then they built a sky scraper on top of that cement. Edit: if we want to help women in Afg, we should help them move somewhere else. Trying to “fix” afg is a fool’s errand. May as well try to drink the Pacific Ocean. Equal chance of success I mean…I think there’s some more insights that can be gleaned from this discussion. Based on the source linked earlier, it seems the main reason ANA defected so quickly is because the Taliban were destined to win barring foreign assistance. The Afghan people seem done with fighting and want to just move on, no matter what form that takes. I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with the Western cultural imperialism thing we had going on there, but if the Taliban decides to squash it I doubt the populace will take up arms to fight for it.
I don’t know the specifics of the nation-building approaches that were done, but it seems they were very top-down and more interested in quashing resistance than actual nation-building. It’s very conceivable though, especially in hindsight, to picture an alternate timeline where this whole thing works out (integrate Taliban into unified government early, more outreach to the rural areas, etc.). I wouldn’t throw Afghanistan into the basket of irredeemables and deplorables. EDIT - That being said, moving forward I don’t see a path for freedom for Afghan women anytime soon. You're right that there is nuance here that we technically don't know. Regardless, we DO know that there is no army in Afg that is willing to fight for women's rights. Regardless of how or why they all defected and surrendered, they did. The Taliban now has the entire Afg military under its wing. If the situation wasn't hopeless before (it was), it is now hopeless. When I said the issue is settled, my main point is that the ship sailed. I think it is totttttttttttally insane that there exist people who are like "So how can we salvage this and keep women in school?". It is so incredibly naive and misguided.Other potential things for people who want to have Afg women in schools to explore, if they are looking for impossible things to pat themselves on the back for supporting: - Lets get more abortion clinics in rural alabama - Lets enact reparations across the south While I’m in agreement with you for the most part that there’s not much we can do, international political pressure is a thing that exists. As a country, we could attempt to negotiate with the new Afghan government and either provide some sort of economic incentive for playing nice with us and guaranteeing safety of diplomats/allowing observers in to report on whether they keep their word about women in schools, or hit them with heavy sanctions/embargoes to accomplish the same effect. If the US followed the proper channels to do this, we’d likely have a lot of international support.As a voter in the US, we have the power to raise awareness of these kinds of potential policies through discussion with other voters and writing to politicians, and voting for those who seem to prioritize said policies. It’s not a complete waste of time to talk about these things. Why would they ever in a million years decide to re-write their culture when they just proved their resolve like 12 hours ago? This isn't some fuzzy issue for Afg. They know exactly how they feel and they fought for 20 years to get what they want. The Afg military was a farce. They didn't believe any of our democracy shit. They just played nice until we left, surrendered and tada, now the Taliban is armed to the teeth (again). Or maybe they did care, but not enough to fight for it. Either way, ain't nobody fighting for women in Afg now that the Taliban has complete and total control of a huge military now. I think we need to be very clear: A small % of Afg want any of these things we are trying to give them. They fought for 20 years to prove that. Why would we push the issue further?
At least 50% of Afghans want more women's rights man. You've been kinda consistently arguing that only the opinion of Afghan men matters for a while now..
Edit: And I'm pretty certain there are tons of points of western history where giving the type of cursory glance you are giving would make one conclude that 'women will never get the right to vote' or 'the right to do x' thing that we take for granted today. It's not like there's a quick, easy path forward, nobody's arguing that, but this type of fatalistic defeatism is self-reinforcing in a really negative way. Fight for something good and accept losing rather than accept something bad.
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On August 17 2021 05:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2021 04:29 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 04:21 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:55 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:20 Oukka wrote:On August 17 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:00 JimmiC wrote:
I think the goal should be for them to not be puppet governments. The issues though are that generally dictators have done a good job of creating a power vacuum outside of their loyal inner circle. Also, the whole apparatus tends to be corrupt and it is not realistic to fire everyone and start from scratch. So instead the goal tends to be to allow the people to continue to be corrupt but follow a new top person which does not end up helping the masses and leads them to "not care" who is at the top. If the last 20 years have taught us anything, it’s that the Middle East needs dictators. It is what works for them. Our democracy has no place there. They don’t want their women in schools. They don’t want science. Find a way to extract value from them through the dictators and move on. We don’t need to give up on imperialism, just need a more realistic method. Ask the women in there. Or I guess ask anyone in a situation where they don't have to fear violence if they speak up. If they want Taliban they surely be able to elect them also in a democratic and free election. I find it very lazy to shrug it off as something the majority of the people there want. The speed with which the entire Afghanistan "army" joined the Taliban speaks volumes. This entire thing was a farce. Regardless of what you think about which women actually want freedom, an enormous amount of Afghanistan doesn't want it. This issue is already resolved. There isn't anything left to discuss here. I don't see any world where the last week in Afghanistan (I'm just writing Afg from here on because its just fucking annoying to type) shows any perspective other than "Afg fully and completely rejected western beliefs". If there was annnnny chance of our idealistic world applying to Afg, it wouldn't have looked like this. I don't see how you can look at the current Afg situation and wonder if maybe there is a path to giving women freedom. Its in the dirt, buried, 100 meters underground, with cement on top. And then they built a sky scraper on top of that cement. Edit: if we want to help women in Afg, we should help them move somewhere else. Trying to “fix” afg is a fool’s errand. May as well try to drink the Pacific Ocean. Equal chance of success I mean…I think there’s some more insights that can be gleaned from this discussion. Based on the source linked earlier, it seems the main reason ANA defected so quickly is because the Taliban were destined to win barring foreign assistance. The Afghan people seem done with fighting and want to just move on, no matter what form that takes. I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with the Western cultural imperialism thing we had going on there, but if the Taliban decides to squash it I doubt the populace will take up arms to fight for it.
I don’t know the specifics of the nation-building approaches that were done, but it seems they were very top-down and more interested in quashing resistance than actual nation-building. It’s very conceivable though, especially in hindsight, to picture an alternate timeline where this whole thing works out (integrate Taliban into unified government early, more outreach to the rural areas, etc.). I wouldn’t throw Afghanistan into the basket of irredeemables and deplorables. EDIT - That being said, moving forward I don’t see a path for freedom for Afghan women anytime soon. You're right that there is nuance here that we technically don't know. Regardless, we DO know that there is no army in Afg that is willing to fight for women's rights. Regardless of how or why they all defected and surrendered, they did. The Taliban now has the entire Afg military under its wing. If the situation wasn't hopeless before (it was), it is now hopeless. When I said the issue is settled, my main point is that the ship sailed. I think it is totttttttttttally insane that there exist people who are like "So how can we salvage this and keep women in school?". It is so incredibly naive and misguided.Other potential things for people who want to have Afg women in schools to explore, if they are looking for impossible things to pat themselves on the back for supporting: - Lets get more abortion clinics in rural alabama - Lets enact reparations across the south While I’m in agreement with you for the most part that there’s not much we can do, international political pressure is a thing that exists. As a country, we could attempt to negotiate with the new Afghan government and either provide some sort of economic incentive for playing nice with us and guaranteeing safety of diplomats/allowing observers in to report on whether they keep their word about women in schools, or hit them with heavy sanctions/embargoes to accomplish the same effect. If the US followed the proper channels to do this, we’d likely have a lot of international support.As a voter in the US, we have the power to raise awareness of these kinds of potential policies through discussion with other voters and writing to politicians, and voting for those who seem to prioritize said policies. It’s not a complete waste of time to talk about these things. Why would they ever in a million years decide to re-write their culture when they just proved their resolve like 12 hours ago? This isn't some fuzzy issue for Afg. They know exactly how they feel and they fought for 20 years to get what they want. The Afg military was a farce. They didn't believe any of our democracy shit. They just played nice until we left, surrendered and tada, now the Taliban is armed to the teeth (again). Or maybe they did care, but not enough to fight for it. Either way, ain't nobody fighting for women in Afg now that the Taliban has complete and total control of a huge military now. I think we need to be very clear: A small % of Afg want any of these things we are trying to give them. They fought for 20 years to prove that. Why would we push the issue further? At least 50% of Afghans want more women's rights man. You've been kinda consistently arguing that only the opinion of Afghan men matters for a while now..
I completely and totally reject this. Can you show me where this is shown to be true?
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On August 17 2021 05:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2021 04:29 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 04:21 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:55 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:20 Oukka wrote:On August 17 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:00 JimmiC wrote:
I think the goal should be for them to not be puppet governments. The issues though are that generally dictators have done a good job of creating a power vacuum outside of their loyal inner circle. Also, the whole apparatus tends to be corrupt and it is not realistic to fire everyone and start from scratch. So instead the goal tends to be to allow the people to continue to be corrupt but follow a new top person which does not end up helping the masses and leads them to "not care" who is at the top. If the last 20 years have taught us anything, it’s that the Middle East needs dictators. It is what works for them. Our democracy has no place there. They don’t want their women in schools. They don’t want science. Find a way to extract value from them through the dictators and move on. We don’t need to give up on imperialism, just need a more realistic method. Ask the women in there. Or I guess ask anyone in a situation where they don't have to fear violence if they speak up. If they want Taliban they surely be able to elect them also in a democratic and free election. I find it very lazy to shrug it off as something the majority of the people there want. The speed with which the entire Afghanistan "army" joined the Taliban speaks volumes. This entire thing was a farce. Regardless of what you think about which women actually want freedom, an enormous amount of Afghanistan doesn't want it. This issue is already resolved. There isn't anything left to discuss here. I don't see any world where the last week in Afghanistan (I'm just writing Afg from here on because its just fucking annoying to type) shows any perspective other than "Afg fully and completely rejected western beliefs". If there was annnnny chance of our idealistic world applying to Afg, it wouldn't have looked like this. I don't see how you can look at the current Afg situation and wonder if maybe there is a path to giving women freedom. Its in the dirt, buried, 100 meters underground, with cement on top. And then they built a sky scraper on top of that cement. Edit: if we want to help women in Afg, we should help them move somewhere else. Trying to “fix” afg is a fool’s errand. May as well try to drink the Pacific Ocean. Equal chance of success I mean…I think there’s some more insights that can be gleaned from this discussion. Based on the source linked earlier, it seems the main reason ANA defected so quickly is because the Taliban were destined to win barring foreign assistance. The Afghan people seem done with fighting and want to just move on, no matter what form that takes. I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with the Western cultural imperialism thing we had going on there, but if the Taliban decides to squash it I doubt the populace will take up arms to fight for it.
I don’t know the specifics of the nation-building approaches that were done, but it seems they were very top-down and more interested in quashing resistance than actual nation-building. It’s very conceivable though, especially in hindsight, to picture an alternate timeline where this whole thing works out (integrate Taliban into unified government early, more outreach to the rural areas, etc.). I wouldn’t throw Afghanistan into the basket of irredeemables and deplorables. EDIT - That being said, moving forward I don’t see a path for freedom for Afghan women anytime soon. You're right that there is nuance here that we technically don't know. Regardless, we DO know that there is no army in Afg that is willing to fight for women's rights. Regardless of how or why they all defected and surrendered, they did. The Taliban now has the entire Afg military under its wing. If the situation wasn't hopeless before (it was), it is now hopeless. When I said the issue is settled, my main point is that the ship sailed. I think it is totttttttttttally insane that there exist people who are like "So how can we salvage this and keep women in school?". It is so incredibly naive and misguided.Other potential things for people who want to have Afg women in schools to explore, if they are looking for impossible things to pat themselves on the back for supporting: - Lets get more abortion clinics in rural alabama - Lets enact reparations across the south While I’m in agreement with you for the most part that there’s not much we can do, international political pressure is a thing that exists. As a country, we could attempt to negotiate with the new Afghan government and either provide some sort of economic incentive for playing nice with us and guaranteeing safety of diplomats/allowing observers in to report on whether they keep their word about women in schools, or hit them with heavy sanctions/embargoes to accomplish the same effect. If the US followed the proper channels to do this, we’d likely have a lot of international support.As a voter in the US, we have the power to raise awareness of these kinds of potential policies through discussion with other voters and writing to politicians, and voting for those who seem to prioritize said policies. It’s not a complete waste of time to talk about these things. Why would they ever in a million years decide to re-write their culture when they just proved their resolve like 12 hours ago? This isn't some fuzzy issue for Afg. They know exactly how they feel and they fought for 20 years to get what they want. The Afg military was a farce. They didn't believe any of our democracy shit. They just played nice until we left, surrendered and tada, now the Taliban is armed to the teeth (again). Or maybe they did care, but not enough to fight for it. Either way, ain't nobody fighting for women in Afg now that the Taliban has complete and total control of a huge military now. I think we need to be very clear: A small % of Afg want any of these things we are trying to give them. They fought for 20 years to prove that. Why would we push the issue further? At least 50% of Afghans want more women's rights man. You've been kinda consistently arguing that only the opinion of Afghan men matters for a while now..
I wouldn't be so sure that being a woman automatically means you're in favor of more women's rights. Women can be traditionalist and conservative, especially if you're a religious woman in rural Afganistan, and believe that the ammount of rights you have is the correct ammount.
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On August 17 2021 05:42 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2021 05:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 17 2021 04:29 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 04:21 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:55 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:20 Oukka wrote:On August 17 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:00 JimmiC wrote:
I think the goal should be for them to not be puppet governments. The issues though are that generally dictators have done a good job of creating a power vacuum outside of their loyal inner circle. Also, the whole apparatus tends to be corrupt and it is not realistic to fire everyone and start from scratch. So instead the goal tends to be to allow the people to continue to be corrupt but follow a new top person which does not end up helping the masses and leads them to "not care" who is at the top. If the last 20 years have taught us anything, it’s that the Middle East needs dictators. It is what works for them. Our democracy has no place there. They don’t want their women in schools. They don’t want science. Find a way to extract value from them through the dictators and move on. We don’t need to give up on imperialism, just need a more realistic method. Ask the women in there. Or I guess ask anyone in a situation where they don't have to fear violence if they speak up. If they want Taliban they surely be able to elect them also in a democratic and free election. I find it very lazy to shrug it off as something the majority of the people there want. The speed with which the entire Afghanistan "army" joined the Taliban speaks volumes. This entire thing was a farce. Regardless of what you think about which women actually want freedom, an enormous amount of Afghanistan doesn't want it. This issue is already resolved. There isn't anything left to discuss here. I don't see any world where the last week in Afghanistan (I'm just writing Afg from here on because its just fucking annoying to type) shows any perspective other than "Afg fully and completely rejected western beliefs". If there was annnnny chance of our idealistic world applying to Afg, it wouldn't have looked like this. I don't see how you can look at the current Afg situation and wonder if maybe there is a path to giving women freedom. Its in the dirt, buried, 100 meters underground, with cement on top. And then they built a sky scraper on top of that cement. Edit: if we want to help women in Afg, we should help them move somewhere else. Trying to “fix” afg is a fool’s errand. May as well try to drink the Pacific Ocean. Equal chance of success I mean…I think there’s some more insights that can be gleaned from this discussion. Based on the source linked earlier, it seems the main reason ANA defected so quickly is because the Taliban were destined to win barring foreign assistance. The Afghan people seem done with fighting and want to just move on, no matter what form that takes. I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with the Western cultural imperialism thing we had going on there, but if the Taliban decides to squash it I doubt the populace will take up arms to fight for it.
I don’t know the specifics of the nation-building approaches that were done, but it seems they were very top-down and more interested in quashing resistance than actual nation-building. It’s very conceivable though, especially in hindsight, to picture an alternate timeline where this whole thing works out (integrate Taliban into unified government early, more outreach to the rural areas, etc.). I wouldn’t throw Afghanistan into the basket of irredeemables and deplorables. EDIT - That being said, moving forward I don’t see a path for freedom for Afghan women anytime soon. You're right that there is nuance here that we technically don't know. Regardless, we DO know that there is no army in Afg that is willing to fight for women's rights. Regardless of how or why they all defected and surrendered, they did. The Taliban now has the entire Afg military under its wing. If the situation wasn't hopeless before (it was), it is now hopeless. When I said the issue is settled, my main point is that the ship sailed. I think it is totttttttttttally insane that there exist people who are like "So how can we salvage this and keep women in school?". It is so incredibly naive and misguided.Other potential things for people who want to have Afg women in schools to explore, if they are looking for impossible things to pat themselves on the back for supporting: - Lets get more abortion clinics in rural alabama - Lets enact reparations across the south While I’m in agreement with you for the most part that there’s not much we can do, international political pressure is a thing that exists. As a country, we could attempt to negotiate with the new Afghan government and either provide some sort of economic incentive for playing nice with us and guaranteeing safety of diplomats/allowing observers in to report on whether they keep their word about women in schools, or hit them with heavy sanctions/embargoes to accomplish the same effect. If the US followed the proper channels to do this, we’d likely have a lot of international support.As a voter in the US, we have the power to raise awareness of these kinds of potential policies through discussion with other voters and writing to politicians, and voting for those who seem to prioritize said policies. It’s not a complete waste of time to talk about these things. Why would they ever in a million years decide to re-write their culture when they just proved their resolve like 12 hours ago? This isn't some fuzzy issue for Afg. They know exactly how they feel and they fought for 20 years to get what they want. The Afg military was a farce. They didn't believe any of our democracy shit. They just played nice until we left, surrendered and tada, now the Taliban is armed to the teeth (again). Or maybe they did care, but not enough to fight for it. Either way, ain't nobody fighting for women in Afg now that the Taliban has complete and total control of a huge military now. I think we need to be very clear: A small % of Afg want any of these things we are trying to give them. They fought for 20 years to prove that. Why would we push the issue further? At least 50% of Afghans want more women's rights man. You've been kinda consistently arguing that only the opinion of Afghan men matters for a while now.. I wouldn't be so sure that being a woman automatically means you're in favor of more women's rights. Women can be traditionalist and conservative, especially if you're a religious woman in rural Afganistan, and believe that the ammount of rights you have is the correct ammount.
In fact, we have a wealth of data showing us that conservative women in many, many cultures consistently vote against their best interests. Even in the US.
Drone, I get the impression you are used to speaking with Muslims a lot more moderate than rural Afg. I think you are essentially failing to recognize how prominent women voting against women is in WESTERN society, let alone rural Afg.
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Norway28707 Posts
Sure. Not all women in conservative cultures want women's rights. I've seen those excerpts of American women saying they don't think a woman is fit to be president etc, too. Me saying 50% (by which I did mean all women) is wrong, in this sense.
But this isn't a constant, unchangeable thing. You'd find the same sentiments in Norway anywhere between 200 and 40 years ago depending on which women's right you are advocating for. Now, I am not saying we can simply export our values to them and expect them to realize that their own ways were backwards and to cheerfully embrace a new foreign way of life. I'm generally very opposed to that. But I think the notion that 'it'll never change' is one that adds to the likelihood of it never changing.
And - you also cannot expect to get 'real' answers from women in cultures where the oppression is this fierce. I am certain that among Afghan girls aged 10 years old who have enjoyed 3 years of school, the amount of them that want to continue going to school despite them being girls is probably above 95%. Malala is Pakistani - but she might as well have been Afghan.
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Norway28707 Posts
On August 17 2021 05:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2021 05:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 17 2021 04:29 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 04:21 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:55 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:20 Oukka wrote:On August 17 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:00 JimmiC wrote:
I think the goal should be for them to not be puppet governments. The issues though are that generally dictators have done a good job of creating a power vacuum outside of their loyal inner circle. Also, the whole apparatus tends to be corrupt and it is not realistic to fire everyone and start from scratch. So instead the goal tends to be to allow the people to continue to be corrupt but follow a new top person which does not end up helping the masses and leads them to "not care" who is at the top. If the last 20 years have taught us anything, it’s that the Middle East needs dictators. It is what works for them. Our democracy has no place there. They don’t want their women in schools. They don’t want science. Find a way to extract value from them through the dictators and move on. We don’t need to give up on imperialism, just need a more realistic method. Ask the women in there. Or I guess ask anyone in a situation where they don't have to fear violence if they speak up. If they want Taliban they surely be able to elect them also in a democratic and free election. I find it very lazy to shrug it off as something the majority of the people there want. The speed with which the entire Afghanistan "army" joined the Taliban speaks volumes. This entire thing was a farce. Regardless of what you think about which women actually want freedom, an enormous amount of Afghanistan doesn't want it. This issue is already resolved. There isn't anything left to discuss here. I don't see any world where the last week in Afghanistan (I'm just writing Afg from here on because its just fucking annoying to type) shows any perspective other than "Afg fully and completely rejected western beliefs". If there was annnnny chance of our idealistic world applying to Afg, it wouldn't have looked like this. I don't see how you can look at the current Afg situation and wonder if maybe there is a path to giving women freedom. Its in the dirt, buried, 100 meters underground, with cement on top. And then they built a sky scraper on top of that cement. Edit: if we want to help women in Afg, we should help them move somewhere else. Trying to “fix” afg is a fool’s errand. May as well try to drink the Pacific Ocean. Equal chance of success I mean…I think there’s some more insights that can be gleaned from this discussion. Based on the source linked earlier, it seems the main reason ANA defected so quickly is because the Taliban were destined to win barring foreign assistance. The Afghan people seem done with fighting and want to just move on, no matter what form that takes. I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with the Western cultural imperialism thing we had going on there, but if the Taliban decides to squash it I doubt the populace will take up arms to fight for it.
I don’t know the specifics of the nation-building approaches that were done, but it seems they were very top-down and more interested in quashing resistance than actual nation-building. It’s very conceivable though, especially in hindsight, to picture an alternate timeline where this whole thing works out (integrate Taliban into unified government early, more outreach to the rural areas, etc.). I wouldn’t throw Afghanistan into the basket of irredeemables and deplorables. EDIT - That being said, moving forward I don’t see a path for freedom for Afghan women anytime soon. You're right that there is nuance here that we technically don't know. Regardless, we DO know that there is no army in Afg that is willing to fight for women's rights. Regardless of how or why they all defected and surrendered, they did. The Taliban now has the entire Afg military under its wing. If the situation wasn't hopeless before (it was), it is now hopeless. When I said the issue is settled, my main point is that the ship sailed. I think it is totttttttttttally insane that there exist people who are like "So how can we salvage this and keep women in school?". It is so incredibly naive and misguided.Other potential things for people who want to have Afg women in schools to explore, if they are looking for impossible things to pat themselves on the back for supporting: - Lets get more abortion clinics in rural alabama - Lets enact reparations across the south While I’m in agreement with you for the most part that there’s not much we can do, international political pressure is a thing that exists. As a country, we could attempt to negotiate with the new Afghan government and either provide some sort of economic incentive for playing nice with us and guaranteeing safety of diplomats/allowing observers in to report on whether they keep their word about women in schools, or hit them with heavy sanctions/embargoes to accomplish the same effect. If the US followed the proper channels to do this, we’d likely have a lot of international support.As a voter in the US, we have the power to raise awareness of these kinds of potential policies through discussion with other voters and writing to politicians, and voting for those who seem to prioritize said policies. It’s not a complete waste of time to talk about these things. Why would they ever in a million years decide to re-write their culture when they just proved their resolve like 12 hours ago? This isn't some fuzzy issue for Afg. They know exactly how they feel and they fought for 20 years to get what they want. The Afg military was a farce. They didn't believe any of our democracy shit. They just played nice until we left, surrendered and tada, now the Taliban is armed to the teeth (again). Or maybe they did care, but not enough to fight for it. Either way, ain't nobody fighting for women in Afg now that the Taliban has complete and total control of a huge military now. I think we need to be very clear: A small % of Afg want any of these things we are trying to give them. They fought for 20 years to prove that. Why would we push the issue further? At least 50% of Afghans want more women's rights man. You've been kinda consistently arguing that only the opinion of Afghan men matters for a while now.. I completely and totally reject this. Can you show me where this is shown to be true?
I think one thing that is hard for us to grasp is the idea that a population can overwhelmingly think women in school is a bad thing.
It's certainly not true that the female population of Afghanistan overwhelmingly thinks women in school is a bad thing.
They don’t want their women in schools.
Women, girls especially, want to be in schools. Taliban doesn't want them to be there.
Like Jimmy posted, the actual support of the Taliban is not that big. But people don't want to die fighting against them. I totally understand that sentiment - I can want something for someone else, but not be willing to die to make sure they get it. Basically I feel like you're arguing that people living under Vlad Tepes' rule were big fans of being impaled because it kept happening.
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On August 17 2021 05:08 farvacola wrote:
Any analysis of what has occurred in Afghanistan that fails to mention the billions of dollars that have been transferred to private actors as a part of our warmongering is startlingly incomplete. The idea that elites are abjectly blind or taken unawares by the limits of their own competence is worthless for its want of a material analysis of what goes into waging war in the first place. None of this was the stuff of whims, it was the stuff of incredible wealth transfers and the politics of trans-national exploitation. It really is as simple as asking "Cui bono?" a question the majority of talking heads do not ask for reasons I would hope are obvious.
Yeah I feel like this was the main object of the wars in the first place - huge amounts of money going to contractors and the various industries of war. From this standpoint the wars have been a major success even if literally everyone else loses. I wonder though if the money trails have been uncovered and made public? I suspect a lot of the people who started and perpetuated the wars to have profited, but I don't know if there's hard evidence.
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Norway28707 Posts
It's entirely fine to adopt a 'we're powerless to help them' - perspective to this. I understand that very well. But victims of oppression not being willing to die to escape oppression does not mean they want to be oppressed. It means that the oppressors have tools for oppression that the oppressed aren't able to combat or circumvent.
Edit:
And it must also be stated that while the Taliban might not have that strong support for their more extreme ideas, they are recognized as non-corrupt (big contrast from the Kabul regime) and as fighting against foreign occupants. People can support part of them while not supporting all of them.
Norway during WW2 was occupied by Nazi-Germany. Historians generally state that something like ~10% of the population actively resisted, and ~10% of the population actively collaborated. The other ~80% were just trying to go about their lives. If they were asked, during ww2, 'do you agree that jews are sub-humans', a significant portion of those 80% would answer 'yes', not necessarily because they thought so or because they supported the 'final solution', but because answering 'no' would flag them as potential anti-nazis, which was a very dangerous thing to be flagged as.
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On August 17 2021 05:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2021 05:42 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 17 2021 05:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:On August 17 2021 04:29 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 04:21 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 04:00 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:55 Ryzel wrote:On August 17 2021 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:On August 17 2021 03:20 Oukka wrote:On August 17 2021 03:12 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
If the last 20 years have taught us anything, it’s that the Middle East needs dictators. It is what works for them. Our democracy has no place there. They don’t want their women in schools. They don’t want science. Find a way to extract value from them through the dictators and move on. We don’t need to give up on imperialism, just need a more realistic method. Ask the women in there. Or I guess ask anyone in a situation where they don't have to fear violence if they speak up. If they want Taliban they surely be able to elect them also in a democratic and free election. I find it very lazy to shrug it off as something the majority of the people there want. The speed with which the entire Afghanistan "army" joined the Taliban speaks volumes. This entire thing was a farce. Regardless of what you think about which women actually want freedom, an enormous amount of Afghanistan doesn't want it. This issue is already resolved. There isn't anything left to discuss here. I don't see any world where the last week in Afghanistan (I'm just writing Afg from here on because its just fucking annoying to type) shows any perspective other than "Afg fully and completely rejected western beliefs". If there was annnnny chance of our idealistic world applying to Afg, it wouldn't have looked like this. I don't see how you can look at the current Afg situation and wonder if maybe there is a path to giving women freedom. Its in the dirt, buried, 100 meters underground, with cement on top. And then they built a sky scraper on top of that cement. Edit: if we want to help women in Afg, we should help them move somewhere else. Trying to “fix” afg is a fool’s errand. May as well try to drink the Pacific Ocean. Equal chance of success I mean…I think there’s some more insights that can be gleaned from this discussion. Based on the source linked earlier, it seems the main reason ANA defected so quickly is because the Taliban were destined to win barring foreign assistance. The Afghan people seem done with fighting and want to just move on, no matter what form that takes. I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive with the Western cultural imperialism thing we had going on there, but if the Taliban decides to squash it I doubt the populace will take up arms to fight for it.
I don’t know the specifics of the nation-building approaches that were done, but it seems they were very top-down and more interested in quashing resistance than actual nation-building. It’s very conceivable though, especially in hindsight, to picture an alternate timeline where this whole thing works out (integrate Taliban into unified government early, more outreach to the rural areas, etc.). I wouldn’t throw Afghanistan into the basket of irredeemables and deplorables. EDIT - That being said, moving forward I don’t see a path for freedom for Afghan women anytime soon. You're right that there is nuance here that we technically don't know. Regardless, we DO know that there is no army in Afg that is willing to fight for women's rights. Regardless of how or why they all defected and surrendered, they did. The Taliban now has the entire Afg military under its wing. If the situation wasn't hopeless before (it was), it is now hopeless. When I said the issue is settled, my main point is that the ship sailed. I think it is totttttttttttally insane that there exist people who are like "So how can we salvage this and keep women in school?". It is so incredibly naive and misguided.Other potential things for people who want to have Afg women in schools to explore, if they are looking for impossible things to pat themselves on the back for supporting: - Lets get more abortion clinics in rural alabama - Lets enact reparations across the south While I’m in agreement with you for the most part that there’s not much we can do, international political pressure is a thing that exists. As a country, we could attempt to negotiate with the new Afghan government and either provide some sort of economic incentive for playing nice with us and guaranteeing safety of diplomats/allowing observers in to report on whether they keep their word about women in schools, or hit them with heavy sanctions/embargoes to accomplish the same effect. If the US followed the proper channels to do this, we’d likely have a lot of international support.As a voter in the US, we have the power to raise awareness of these kinds of potential policies through discussion with other voters and writing to politicians, and voting for those who seem to prioritize said policies. It’s not a complete waste of time to talk about these things. Why would they ever in a million years decide to re-write their culture when they just proved their resolve like 12 hours ago? This isn't some fuzzy issue for Afg. They know exactly how they feel and they fought for 20 years to get what they want. The Afg military was a farce. They didn't believe any of our democracy shit. They just played nice until we left, surrendered and tada, now the Taliban is armed to the teeth (again). Or maybe they did care, but not enough to fight for it. Either way, ain't nobody fighting for women in Afg now that the Taliban has complete and total control of a huge military now. I think we need to be very clear: A small % of Afg want any of these things we are trying to give them. They fought for 20 years to prove that. Why would we push the issue further? At least 50% of Afghans want more women's rights man. You've been kinda consistently arguing that only the opinion of Afghan men matters for a while now.. I wouldn't be so sure that being a woman automatically means you're in favor of more women's rights. Women can be traditionalist and conservative, especially if you're a religious woman in rural Afganistan, and believe that the ammount of rights you have is the correct ammount. In fact, we have a wealth of data showing us that conservative women in many, many cultures consistently vote against their best interests. Even in the US. Drone, I get the impression you are used to speaking with Muslims a lot more moderate than rural Afg. I think you are essentially failing to recognize how prominent women voting against women is in WESTERN society, let alone rural Afg.
Maybe their interest is just in ending the war. Afghanistan might in some respects be the reverse of the Sandinista situation. Did the people vote for the liberalism of the US or did they vote to end a war that the Sandinistas had no hope of winning against a US prepared to go the distance with a cold war ideology and infinite resources? Likewise, here, are the people siding with the Taliban or are they siding with the group that looks destined to win, if only through sheer attrition, in the end? They are tired of war.
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Norway28707 Posts
Additionally, the median age of Afghanistan is 18.4 years. More than half their population is born after 9/11 and after the Taliban was initially ousted. Roughly 25% of Afghans are girls younger than 19, and many of those have gone to school, at least for a while.
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Yeah some people here act as if the Taliban resuming control is something a majority of Afghans want and I can't help but ask why you would think this. Because they are not readily marching to death for 'patriotism'?
Sure you can blame a soldier for not defending his country against apparently overwhelming odds but can you blame the human being behind the soldier for wanting to see the next day with his wife and children?
'The people are not resisting'. The people in Europe didn't resist the Germany army either, to draw upon a more local comparison. The vast majority just wanted to stay alive.
Is this situation really any different?
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On August 17 2021 06:20 Liquid`Drone wrote:
It's entirely fine to adopt a 'we're powerless to help them' - perspective to this. I understand that very well. But victims of oppression not being willing to die to escape oppression does not mean they want to be oppressed. It means that the oppressors have tools for oppression that the oppressed aren't able to combat or circumvent.
Edit:
And it must also be stated that while the Taliban might not have that strong support for their more extreme ideas, they are recognized as non-corrupt (big contrast from the Kabul regime) and as fighting against foreign occupants. People can support part of them while not supporting all of them.
Norway during WW2 was occupied by Nazi-Germany. Historians generally state that something like ~10% of the population actively resisted, and ~10% of the population actively collaborated. The other ~80% were just trying to go about their lives. If they were asked, during ww2, 'do you agree that jews are sub-humans', a significant portion of those 80% would answer 'yes', not necessarily because they thought so or because they supported the 'final solution', but because answering 'no' would flag them as potential anti-nazis, which was a very dangerous thing to be flagged as.
I think a very important thing here is to differentiate between three things:
What do people in Afghanistan want Afghanistan to be like? (Which is probably already as diverse as in any other nation, and hard to figure out due to the effect in your Norway example)
What do we want Afghanistan to be like?
What can we actually achieve in Afghanistan?
And of course, last but not least, how do we best proceed to achieve what we want to achieve. One thing we know for sure is that the US strategy of going there, bombing everything, killing a few people and then trying to install a puppet regime horribly failed in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Sanctions also do not work. We can see that pretty much anywhere where we put sanctions in place. They generally make life worse for the average person, and makes everyone hate us more.
I think the only real case we have of an outside force pushing democracy into a country and it actually working out for the better is the end of WW2. At least i cannot think of any other.
My personal take is that so far, anything people tried in the middle east ended up worse than before. It sucks, because this means that lots of people are oppressed and in generally shitty situations, but i think we need to come to terms with the fact that we can not really change this, and any effort on our end is actually counterproductive. Let the middle east be the middle east, offer refuge for those who escape it, especially if they belong to oppressed groups, and don't make everything worse by bumbling in there and blowing stuff up.
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