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On August 15 2021 22:20 Purressure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It’s a freakin tragedy for the Afghan people. It’s the first step from Biden that makes me actually really angry. I understand that there was no good option, but to just leave the people of Afghanistan to the wolves is inhuman. The suffering to come is incommensurable. And as a result Europe will have to deal with another surge of refugees, and I'm sure they already had quite enough of them so no idea how that's going to pan out but I can definitely see some countries simply saying no this time which is a bad thing for those fleeing from the Taliban but at the same time I think it'd be an understandable response. There are no winners but the Taliban.
Asylum seekers from Afghanistan will have a much better case. As it was, many parts of the country were relatively safe and peaceful. That’s not going to be the case anymore. It’s kind of impossible to justify deporting anyone to a country governed by the Talibans.
Definitely a refugee and humanitarian crisis in the making. I expect Europe to essentially do the same thing than with the Syrians: play with their own kafkaian rules to not even let those people have s chance to ask for asylum.
Horrible…
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I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now.
Ultimately, I weep for the people of Afghanistan. I have no trust in the Taliban's word to moderate their rule, and whatever progress was made for women and a generation who grew up under the NATO/American military occupation will soon be erased overnight. Afghanistan will probably be another battleground for powers like Iran, Russia, China and various extremist groups. There will be a flood of Afghan refugees who have to contend with angry anti-refugee sentiment and Western governments who realize another refugee crisis will have to be handled without as much sympathy as the first. The least we can do for the people who collaborated with the NATO coalition is get them out safely and house them for their service. May we at least emerge from this tragedy having learned something, anything.
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On August 15 2021 22:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 22:20 Purressure wrote:On August 15 2021 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It’s a freakin tragedy for the Afghan people. It’s the first step from Biden that makes me actually really angry. I understand that there was no good option, but to just leave the people of Afghanistan to the wolves is inhuman. The suffering to come is incommensurable. And as a result Europe will have to deal with another surge of refugees, and I'm sure they already had quite enough of them so no idea how that's going to pan out but I can definitely see some countries simply saying no this time which is a bad thing for those fleeing from the Taliban but at the same time I think it'd be an understandable response. There are no winners but the Taliban. Asylum seekers from Afghanistan will have a much better case. As it was, many parts of the country were relatively safe and peaceful. That’s not going to be the case anymore. It’s kind of impossible to justify deporting anyone to a country governed by the Talibans. Definitely a refugee and humanitarian crisis in the making. I expect Europe to essentially do the same thing than with the Syrians: play with their own kafkaian rules to not even let those people have s chance to ask for asylum. Horrible… Several EU nations plan to keep returning Afghan refugees who's request for asylum has been rejected.
www.reuters.com
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On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now.
It doesn't even sound like one of those situations where the regions were defecting to the Taliban as they showed up, which suggests that the US-trained security forces are no longer a viable fighting force. Probably was never viable without heavy US support, to be honest.
That's a pretty big failure of the whole "nation building" operation.
On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Afghanistan will probably be another battleground for powers like Iran, Russia, China and various extremist groups.
I don't think anyone wants to have to touch Afghanistan after the precedent it has set for being an unwinnable battleground. Unfortunately, unless the Taliban really is serious about what it claims, Afghanistan is going to be the breeding ground for another generation of Islamism.
The key country in all this really seems to be Pakistan. As long as Pakistan has every incentive to play both sides and only be a notional ally of anti-terrorism, there's no solving the Afghanistan issue. Really brings back the whole "most dangerous country in the world" sentiment from the early 2000s era.
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Ghani already left the country, guess caring for his own and making them a priority wasn't on his mind.
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On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now.
Ultimately, I weep for the people of Afghanistan. I have no trust in the Taliban's word to moderate their rule, and whatever progress was made for women and a generation who grew up under the NATO/American military occupation will soon be erased overnight. Afghanistan will probably be another battleground for powers like Iran, Russia, China and various extremist groups. There will be a flood of Afghan refugees who have to contend with angry anti-refugee sentiment and Western governments who realize another refugee crisis will have to be handled without as much sympathy as the first. The least we can do for the people who collaborated with the NATO coalition is get them out safely and house them for their service. May we at least emerge from this tragedy having learned something, anything.
Yes, this is terrible and everyone from Biden on down needs their comeuppance for this. 90 days they said, but now Kabul is gone before everyone is even out. And of course it's worse for those who now have to live under the Taliban, from what I read they are already chasing people down... The US hasn't even lost a service member there in over a year. This is all of course a disgrace for the US and tragic for the people of Afghanistan.
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On August 15 2021 23:42 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now. It doesn't even sound like one of those situations where the regions were defecting to the Taliban as they showed up, which suggests that the US-trained security forces are no longer a viable fighting force. Probably was never viable without heavy US support, to be honest. That's a pretty big failure of the whole "nation building" operation.
The issue lies with the lack of air support. America's system worked because of it, but pulling out with everything made the Afghans have no viable air support at all, rendering everything else they were taught by the us useless.
A lot of the guys who were trained by 10th group went into battle against ISIS so I'm certain most of the capable ones are not among the living anymore. Make no mistake, there were very capable guys among them once they were trained, but take everything else away and it doesn't mean that much even if they were still alive I'm sure it would hardly make a difference.
It's beyond sad how they're left to fend for themselves when what they were taught holds barely to no use anymore because everything they need has been taken away when we left, or at least the vast majority.
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On August 15 2021 23:28 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 22:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2021 22:20 Purressure wrote:On August 15 2021 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It’s a freakin tragedy for the Afghan people. It’s the first step from Biden that makes me actually really angry. I understand that there was no good option, but to just leave the people of Afghanistan to the wolves is inhuman. The suffering to come is incommensurable. And as a result Europe will have to deal with another surge of refugees, and I'm sure they already had quite enough of them so no idea how that's going to pan out but I can definitely see some countries simply saying no this time which is a bad thing for those fleeing from the Taliban but at the same time I think it'd be an understandable response. There are no winners but the Taliban. Asylum seekers from Afghanistan will have a much better case. As it was, many parts of the country were relatively safe and peaceful. That’s not going to be the case anymore. It’s kind of impossible to justify deporting anyone to a country governed by the Talibans. Definitely a refugee and humanitarian crisis in the making. I expect Europe to essentially do the same thing than with the Syrians: play with their own kafkaian rules to not even let those people have s chance to ask for asylum. Horrible… Several EU nations plan to keep returning Afghan refugees who's request for asylum has been rejected. www.reuters.com
Obviously Denmark is in the mix. Their “left-wing” government is one if the most openly xenophobic in Europe and doesn’t pale off to some far right parties when it comes to demonizing immigrants and asylum seekers.
Thrn again, Denmark has a huge problem with racism, so I guess that’s how they figured out they could win elections. Despicable.
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On August 15 2021 23:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 23:28 Gorsameth wrote:On August 15 2021 22:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2021 22:20 Purressure wrote:On August 15 2021 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It’s a freakin tragedy for the Afghan people. It’s the first step from Biden that makes me actually really angry. I understand that there was no good option, but to just leave the people of Afghanistan to the wolves is inhuman. The suffering to come is incommensurable. And as a result Europe will have to deal with another surge of refugees, and I'm sure they already had quite enough of them so no idea how that's going to pan out but I can definitely see some countries simply saying no this time which is a bad thing for those fleeing from the Taliban but at the same time I think it'd be an understandable response. There are no winners but the Taliban. Asylum seekers from Afghanistan will have a much better case. As it was, many parts of the country were relatively safe and peaceful. That’s not going to be the case anymore. It’s kind of impossible to justify deporting anyone to a country governed by the Talibans. Definitely a refugee and humanitarian crisis in the making. I expect Europe to essentially do the same thing than with the Syrians: play with their own kafkaian rules to not even let those people have s chance to ask for asylum. Horrible… Several EU nations plan to keep returning Afghan refugees who's request for asylum has been rejected. www.reuters.com Obviously Denmark is in the mix. Their “left-wing” government is one if the most openly xenophobic in Europe and doesn’t pale off to some far right parties when it comes to demonizing immigrants and asylum seekers. Thrn again, Denmark has a huge problem with racism, so I guess that’s how they figured out they could win elections. Despicable.
Call it despicable, but other small countries being forced to let refugees in by the thousands while they have their own problems to deal with is equally despicable if you ask me.
Far right has been on the rise throughout Europe, the surge of refugees and seeing how much effort has been done towards them while their own citizens have been left in the dirt is the perfect formula to create animosity towards the usual governing parties.
Stuff like this affects everyone involved.
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On August 15 2021 23:50 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now.
Ultimately, I weep for the people of Afghanistan. I have no trust in the Taliban's word to moderate their rule, and whatever progress was made for women and a generation who grew up under the NATO/American military occupation will soon be erased overnight. Afghanistan will probably be another battleground for powers like Iran, Russia, China and various extremist groups. There will be a flood of Afghan refugees who have to contend with angry anti-refugee sentiment and Western governments who realize another refugee crisis will have to be handled without as much sympathy as the first. The least we can do for the people who collaborated with the NATO coalition is get them out safely and house them for their service. May we at least emerge from this tragedy having learned something, anything. Yes, this is terrible and everyone from Biden on down needs their comeuppance for this. 90 days they said, but now Kabul is gone before everyone is even out. And of course it's worse for those who now have to live under the Taliban, from what I read they are already chasing people down... The US hasn't even lost a service member there in over a year. This is all of course a disgrace for the US and tragic for the people of Afghanistan.
It was republicans who invaded with a poor plan.
It was republicans who initiated the withdrawal in a poor way.
It was republicans who gutted the american intelligence, government and institutions for the last 4 years.
But hey, lets blame the Democrats, since they couldnt clean up the republicans mess.
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On August 15 2021 23:50 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now.
Ultimately, I weep for the people of Afghanistan. I have no trust in the Taliban's word to moderate their rule, and whatever progress was made for women and a generation who grew up under the NATO/American military occupation will soon be erased overnight. Afghanistan will probably be another battleground for powers like Iran, Russia, China and various extremist groups. There will be a flood of Afghan refugees who have to contend with angry anti-refugee sentiment and Western governments who realize another refugee crisis will have to be handled without as much sympathy as the first. The least we can do for the people who collaborated with the NATO coalition is get them out safely and house them for their service. May we at least emerge from this tragedy having learned something, anything. Yes, this is terrible and everyone from Biden on down needs their comeuppance for this. 90 days they said, but now Kabul is gone before everyone is even out. And of course it's worse for those who now have to live under the Taliban, from what I read they are already chasing people down... The US hasn't even lost a service member there in over a year. This is all of course a disgrace for the US and tragic for the people of Afghanistan. So you think the US should stay? Lets have Congress vote on that, who do you think will vote against staying more, Democrats or Republicans?
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On August 15 2021 23:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 23:28 Gorsameth wrote:On August 15 2021 22:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2021 22:20 Purressure wrote:On August 15 2021 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It’s a freakin tragedy for the Afghan people. It’s the first step from Biden that makes me actually really angry. I understand that there was no good option, but to just leave the people of Afghanistan to the wolves is inhuman. The suffering to come is incommensurable. And as a result Europe will have to deal with another surge of refugees, and I'm sure they already had quite enough of them so no idea how that's going to pan out but I can definitely see some countries simply saying no this time which is a bad thing for those fleeing from the Taliban but at the same time I think it'd be an understandable response. There are no winners but the Taliban. Asylum seekers from Afghanistan will have a much better case. As it was, many parts of the country were relatively safe and peaceful. That’s not going to be the case anymore. It’s kind of impossible to justify deporting anyone to a country governed by the Talibans. Definitely a refugee and humanitarian crisis in the making. I expect Europe to essentially do the same thing than with the Syrians: play with their own kafkaian rules to not even let those people have s chance to ask for asylum. Horrible… Several EU nations plan to keep returning Afghan refugees who's request for asylum has been rejected. www.reuters.com Obviously Denmark is in the mix. Their “left-wing” government is one if the most openly xenophobic in Europe and doesn’t pale off to some far right parties when it comes to demonizing immigrants and asylum seekers. Thrn again, Denmark has a huge problem with racism, so I guess that’s how they figured out they could win elections. Despicable.
This is wrong and painfully ignorant about our sociopolitics and political landscape.
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On August 16 2021 00:53 Oleo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 23:50 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now.
Ultimately, I weep for the people of Afghanistan. I have no trust in the Taliban's word to moderate their rule, and whatever progress was made for women and a generation who grew up under the NATO/American military occupation will soon be erased overnight. Afghanistan will probably be another battleground for powers like Iran, Russia, China and various extremist groups. There will be a flood of Afghan refugees who have to contend with angry anti-refugee sentiment and Western governments who realize another refugee crisis will have to be handled without as much sympathy as the first. The least we can do for the people who collaborated with the NATO coalition is get them out safely and house them for their service. May we at least emerge from this tragedy having learned something, anything. Yes, this is terrible and everyone from Biden on down needs their comeuppance for this. 90 days they said, but now Kabul is gone before everyone is even out. And of course it's worse for those who now have to live under the Taliban, from what I read they are already chasing people down... The US hasn't even lost a service member there in over a year. This is all of course a disgrace for the US and tragic for the people of Afghanistan. It was republicans who invaded with a poor plan. It was republicans who initiated the withdrawal in a poor way. It was republicans who gutted the american intelligence, government and institutions for the last 4 years. But hey, lets blame the Democrats, since they couldnt clean up the republicans mess.
Wouldn't be fair not to mention the administration of Obama, a Democrat, right there in the middle of all this! The one that inherited the situation (troubled but far from hopeless) from Bush, initiated a much-expanded offensive, but at the end of 2016 left a situation that really wasn't that stable either amidst a popular sentiment back home very much against Middle East adventurism.
Not to say that Obama is to blame for it all, but the good thing about a conflict lasting 20 years is that you can throw blame at either party and be right. The 8 years in the middle of the Obama administration is neither blameless nor some shining star in the Afghanistan occupation, so tactically omitting it from your evaluation seems disingenuous.
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On August 16 2021 00:53 Oleo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 23:50 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now.
Ultimately, I weep for the people of Afghanistan. I have no trust in the Taliban's word to moderate their rule, and whatever progress was made for women and a generation who grew up under the NATO/American military occupation will soon be erased overnight. Afghanistan will probably be another battleground for powers like Iran, Russia, China and various extremist groups. There will be a flood of Afghan refugees who have to contend with angry anti-refugee sentiment and Western governments who realize another refugee crisis will have to be handled without as much sympathy as the first. The least we can do for the people who collaborated with the NATO coalition is get them out safely and house them for their service. May we at least emerge from this tragedy having learned something, anything. Yes, this is terrible and everyone from Biden on down needs their comeuppance for this. 90 days they said, but now Kabul is gone before everyone is even out. And of course it's worse for those who now have to live under the Taliban, from what I read they are already chasing people down... The US hasn't even lost a service member there in over a year. This is all of course a disgrace for the US and tragic for the people of Afghanistan. It was republicans who invaded with a poor plan. It was republicans who initiated the withdrawal in a poor way. It was republicans who gutted the american intelligence, government and institutions for the last 4 years. But hey, lets blame the Democrats, since they couldnt clean up the republicans mess.
You've nailed it. Democrats aren't perfect obviously, but they've been on the shitty end of a cycle where Republicans break everything, Democrats try to fix what they can, and Republicans suddenly jump to the moral high ground and point the finger for not effectively resolving all the issues they created. For decades.
Maybe let's have some comeuppance for Bush, Cheney, and everyone else down that chain of command, if we're so upset with the current situation all of a sudden. There's no good answer to this situation in Afghanistan, clearly, but Biden didn't snap his fingers and put thousands of troops there. He stepped into a situation created by others.
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This next 2 years will be very good for understanding how the US should interact with the suffering world. If Afghanistan ends up worse in 2 years than it was 6 months ago, people need to drop the "world police!!!!" Shtick and let the US do its job. If it ends up better, great, we can save a lot of money and lives.
Since women are being forced to resign from universities and the covid vaccine has been outlawed, I gotta admit guys, it kind of looks bad. But I'll wait and see
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On August 16 2021 01:18 Mohdoo wrote:
This next 2 years will be very good for understanding how the US should interact with the suffering world. If Afghanistan ends up worse in 2 years than it was 6 months ago, people need to drop the "world police!!!!" Shtick and let the US do its job. If it ends up better, great, we can save a lot of money and lives.
Since women are being forced to resign from universities and the covid vaccine has been outlawed, I gotta admit guys, it kind of looks bad. But I'll wait and see
I have little faith that the Taliban will be a beacon of truth, justice, and the American way inside of Afghanistan. But if they can keep out the Islamist influences a la Al Qaeda / ISIS, that's still a win. The US doesn't really have a lot of qualms with dictators as long as they are US-friendly either, so that part hardly matters.
I expect the next year or so to involve all the surrounding countries taking special precautions to secure their Afghani border and seeing if diplomatic missions remain viable. If they do, trade and infrastructure could follow. If not, and Afghanistan becomes an Islamist hotbed - probably China's turn to be up to bat.
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On August 16 2021 01:30 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2021 01:18 Mohdoo wrote:
This next 2 years will be very good for understanding how the US should interact with the suffering world. If Afghanistan ends up worse in 2 years than it was 6 months ago, people need to drop the "world police!!!!" Shtick and let the US do its job. If it ends up better, great, we can save a lot of money and lives.
Since women are being forced to resign from universities and the covid vaccine has been outlawed, I gotta admit guys, it kind of looks bad. But I'll wait and see I have little faith that the Taliban will be a beacon of truth, justice, and the American way inside of Afghanistan. But if they can keep out the Islamist influences a la Al Qaeda / ISIS, that's still a win. The US doesn't really have a lot of qualms with dictators as long as they are US-friendly either, so that part hardly matters. I expect the next year or so to involve all the surrounding countries taking special precautions to secure their Afghani border and seeing if diplomatic missions remain viable. If they do, trade and infrastructure could follow. If not, and Afghanistan becomes an Islamist hotbed - probably China's turn to be up to bat.
Yeah I don't need Afghanistan to be a mirror of the US. What history has taught me is that we don't have the luxury of good options with the middle east. If we can take the least bad option, great, lets do that. If the Taliban can prevent a refugee crisis, I will consider the situation "stable". Stable is great for Afghanistan.
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On August 16 2021 01:17 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2021 00:53 Oleo wrote:On August 15 2021 23:50 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now.
Ultimately, I weep for the people of Afghanistan. I have no trust in the Taliban's word to moderate their rule, and whatever progress was made for women and a generation who grew up under the NATO/American military occupation will soon be erased overnight. Afghanistan will probably be another battleground for powers like Iran, Russia, China and various extremist groups. There will be a flood of Afghan refugees who have to contend with angry anti-refugee sentiment and Western governments who realize another refugee crisis will have to be handled without as much sympathy as the first. The least we can do for the people who collaborated with the NATO coalition is get them out safely and house them for their service. May we at least emerge from this tragedy having learned something, anything. Yes, this is terrible and everyone from Biden on down needs their comeuppance for this. 90 days they said, but now Kabul is gone before everyone is even out. And of course it's worse for those who now have to live under the Taliban, from what I read they are already chasing people down... The US hasn't even lost a service member there in over a year. This is all of course a disgrace for the US and tragic for the people of Afghanistan. It was republicans who invaded with a poor plan. It was republicans who initiated the withdrawal in a poor way. It was republicans who gutted the american intelligence, government and institutions for the last 4 years. But hey, lets blame the Democrats, since they couldnt clean up the republicans mess. You've nailed it. Democrats aren't perfect obviously, but they've been on the shitty end of a cycle where Republicans break everything, Democrats try to fix what they can, and Republicans suddenly jump to the moral high ground and point the finger for not effectively resolving all the issues they created. For decades. Maybe let's have some comeuppance for Bush, Cheney, and everyone else down that chain of command, if we're so upset with the current situation all of a sudden. There's no good answer to this situation in Afghanistan, clearly, but Biden didn't snap his fingers and put thousands of troops there. He stepped into a situation created by others.
It's still Biden who eventually decided to go ahead with pulling out regardless of how good or bad it may have been at the time. People can blame Republicans all they want, it's Obama who expanded the amount of troops there and left the situation in an unstable condition. Yes, Trump wanted to pull out too, but would he have proceeded seeing how badly people were advising against it the last couple of weeks/months until the order was effectively given by Biden? We don't know.
People applauded Biden without realizing the domino effect it would trigger, now people are calling it the worst decision of the century (and it may very well be). Every and any side turns with the wind in whatever direction is favorable to them, don't get yourself dragged into it.
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On August 16 2021 02:16 Purressure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2021 01:17 NewSunshine wrote:On August 16 2021 00:53 Oleo wrote:On August 15 2021 23:50 Introvert wrote:On August 15 2021 22:50 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'm quite astonished at how poorly the resistance was projected by experts who were predicting years, months and weeks for the Taliban to take control of Kabul, the major cities and Afghanistan. Just three or four days ago I read a European diplomat or military figure say it would take 90 days for Kabul to be occupied by the Taliban. I guess not even the experts would have expected the ANA to collapse this rapidly with little to no resistance. Biden's outlook on Afghanistan probably based on that intelligence looks quite silly now.
Ultimately, I weep for the people of Afghanistan. I have no trust in the Taliban's word to moderate their rule, and whatever progress was made for women and a generation who grew up under the NATO/American military occupation will soon be erased overnight. Afghanistan will probably be another battleground for powers like Iran, Russia, China and various extremist groups. There will be a flood of Afghan refugees who have to contend with angry anti-refugee sentiment and Western governments who realize another refugee crisis will have to be handled without as much sympathy as the first. The least we can do for the people who collaborated with the NATO coalition is get them out safely and house them for their service. May we at least emerge from this tragedy having learned something, anything. Yes, this is terrible and everyone from Biden on down needs their comeuppance for this. 90 days they said, but now Kabul is gone before everyone is even out. And of course it's worse for those who now have to live under the Taliban, from what I read they are already chasing people down... The US hasn't even lost a service member there in over a year. This is all of course a disgrace for the US and tragic for the people of Afghanistan. It was republicans who invaded with a poor plan. It was republicans who initiated the withdrawal in a poor way. It was republicans who gutted the american intelligence, government and institutions for the last 4 years. But hey, lets blame the Democrats, since they couldnt clean up the republicans mess. You've nailed it. Democrats aren't perfect obviously, but they've been on the shitty end of a cycle where Republicans break everything, Democrats try to fix what they can, and Republicans suddenly jump to the moral high ground and point the finger for not effectively resolving all the issues they created. For decades. Maybe let's have some comeuppance for Bush, Cheney, and everyone else down that chain of command, if we're so upset with the current situation all of a sudden. There's no good answer to this situation in Afghanistan, clearly, but Biden didn't snap his fingers and put thousands of troops there. He stepped into a situation created by others. It's still Biden who eventually decided to go ahead with pulling out regardless of how good or bad it may have been at the time. People can blame Republicans all they want, it's Obama who expanded the amount of troops there and left the situation in an unstable condition. Yes, Trump wanted to pull out too, but would he have proceeded seeing how badly people were advising against it the last couple of weeks/months until the order was effectively given by Biden? We don't know. People applauded Biden without realizing the domino effect it would trigger, now people are calling it the worst decision of the century (and it may very well be). Every and any side turns with the wind in whatever direction is favorable to them, don't get yourself dragged into it.
I would argue the speed with which Afghanistan fell shows it was the right call. The situation was totally hopeless. The complete dissolution of the government shows it was never real to begin with. There was already a ton of subterfuge/betrayal happening.
I think the reality of the situation is that we were putting on a show. We were probably screwed for the past ~year. We never had the support of the citizens. They didn't want us there. They prefer the Taliban. That's the reality. Nothing we can do so long as that is true.
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On August 16 2021 01:07 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 23:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2021 23:28 Gorsameth wrote:On August 15 2021 22:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2021 22:20 Purressure wrote:On August 15 2021 22:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It’s a freakin tragedy for the Afghan people. It’s the first step from Biden that makes me actually really angry. I understand that there was no good option, but to just leave the people of Afghanistan to the wolves is inhuman. The suffering to come is incommensurable. And as a result Europe will have to deal with another surge of refugees, and I'm sure they already had quite enough of them so no idea how that's going to pan out but I can definitely see some countries simply saying no this time which is a bad thing for those fleeing from the Taliban but at the same time I think it'd be an understandable response. There are no winners but the Taliban. Asylum seekers from Afghanistan will have a much better case. As it was, many parts of the country were relatively safe and peaceful. That’s not going to be the case anymore. It’s kind of impossible to justify deporting anyone to a country governed by the Talibans. Definitely a refugee and humanitarian crisis in the making. I expect Europe to essentially do the same thing than with the Syrians: play with their own kafkaian rules to not even let those people have s chance to ask for asylum. Horrible… Several EU nations plan to keep returning Afghan refugees who's request for asylum has been rejected. www.reuters.com Obviously Denmark is in the mix. Their “left-wing” government is one if the most openly xenophobic in Europe and doesn’t pale off to some far right parties when it comes to demonizing immigrants and asylum seekers. Thrn again, Denmark has a huge problem with racism, so I guess that’s how they figured out they could win elections. Despicable. This is wrong and painfully ignorant about our sociopolitics and political landscape.
Please enlighten me, which part is wrong?
We can start there, for those interested:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-07/racism-is-seen-as-a-growing-threat-in-denmark-poll-shows
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EPT
