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On August 07 2021 04:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2021 20:20 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2021 18:25 Silvanel wrote:
Having lived in a communist country, I can safely say that it's not great, it's not even ok. Anyone claiming otherwise will not be a friend of mine. That being said, when communism fell across the world Cubans did not overthrow its government, there must be a reason for that. Either there were not as bad off as in Poland, DDR, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia and so on... or there must be some other factor or factors that I am missing. I mean, as history has shown fear and threat of force is often not enough (Stasi, KGB, Securitate were unable to stop revolutions). Albania didn't immediately transition either and it wasn't because Albania was doing so well. But Cuba is no North Korea, with its absolute isolationism and complete control over all media. They are too near the US for that to work, and too many Cubans have contact with those living abroad. And my own experience visiting Cuba (over 10 years ago, so things have no doubt changed), was that people don't generally seem dissatisfied. They weren't happy that it was essentially impossible to get luxuries, but they were happy that basic human requirements were guaranteed. You look at a place like Haiti or even the Dominican Republic, and they are in many ways much much worse than Cuba despite democracy and capitalism. The government is repressive and corrupt. But they do at least ensure the basic requirements. Analfabetism is very very low, housing is provided, food was generally available (I read that changed) and health care is good and accessible. Ensuring those basics satisfies a lot of people. "basic requirements" is a bit of a stretch here. All citizens who align themselves with the government definitely get basic requirements, all others get shit. You know that they give a family 7 eggs for the entire month? they pay 24 pesos a month to EVERYONE, even doctors, which equates to $1 USD. A coke can cost 400 pesos. Healthcare looks good, but its trash to the people of Cuba, and good for those who only are part of the regime. People die daily from just hunger and health. It's no better than Haiti or Dominican republic... Also they don't say they're not dissatisfied, they're scared to even say anything against the government, even to tourist, cause tourist can and have reported them. Have you even seen the news lately on how much the Cuban people are extremely dissatisfied? Imagine living and growing up in a country where being repressed is the norms. Of course they'll say they're ok. Any Cuban that interacts with tourist is put there by the government. It's not a job anybody can just get. Every part of your life living in Cuba is controlled by the government in Cuba. Show nested quote +On August 07 2021 03:48 Starlightsun wrote:On August 06 2021 20:20 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2021 18:25 Silvanel wrote:
Having lived in a communist country, I can safely say that it's not great, it's not even ok. Anyone claiming otherwise will not be a friend of mine. That being said, when communism fell across the world Cubans did not overthrow its government, there must be a reason for that. Either there were not as bad off as in Poland, DDR, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia and so on... or there must be some other factor or factors that I am missing. I mean, as history has shown fear and threat of force is often not enough (Stasi, KGB, Securitate were unable to stop revolutions). And my own experience visiting Cuba (over 10 years ago, so things have no doubt changed), was that people don't generally seem dissatisfied. They weren't happy that it was essentially impossible to get luxuries, but they were happy that basic human requirements were guaranteed. You look at a place like Haiti or even the Dominican Republic, and they are in many ways much much worse than Cuba despite democracy and capitalism. I was surprised to learn that they have universal healthcare over there. Of course.medical supplies and equipment are scarce though because they are so poor and the embargo forbids getting supplies from the US. It was a documentary about breakthrough cancer research in Cuba that Americans were traveling there to receive, and which resulted in a partnership with a hospital in New York I believe. That hospital planned to build a research center in Cuba but it's really hard to transfer equipment and supplies. The US Embargo does not include a blockade on medical supplies or food for the Cuban people. So that's just propaganda. Here's a convo that was had earlier in the thread already. Show nested quote +On July 14 2021 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 07:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 07:09 ShoCkeyy wrote:On July 14 2021 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 05:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hundreds of Miami Cubans head to Cuba to help the Cuban people fight and aid against the government on their own boats. I honestly hope they make it safe, but I don’t expect the Cuban government to just allow them to land on their shores. I expect quite a few deaths sadly.
This is getting out of hand with Cuba and US relations. It’s like trying to start a mini war, that can turn into a full blown war with greater powers. The last 60+ years of embargo the rest of the world recognizes as cruelly inhumane was explicitly intended to foment anti-government sentiment as a result of lacking basic supplies. So yeah, the US's position has been unconscionably barbaric for decades with the explicit intention of fomenting disorder that would ostensibly justify US military intervention. Cuba's a rare exception where the US's persistent attempts to deprive them of food & medicine, assassinate their president, invade their country, etc. have all failed because of the resolute nature of the revolution in Cuba. Just so you know, the American side of the embargo is bullshit, the Cuban government have their own blockade against American goods. They also have many other countries they can trade with like Canada. The embargo actually allows food and medicine from the US to be shipped to Cuba. Cuba’s government steals the food and medicine for itself, they created their own embargo to blame the in humane conditions against the US. What you spouted is literally Cuban government propaganda. Must be damn good propaganda to get A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with [only] the United States and Israel voting against. news.un.orgOr maybe the US side of the embargo isn't bullshit (in the way you mean) and you're repeating US government propaganda? Your source agrees with what Shockey said. Quote from your source. Every year we authorize billions of dollars’ worth of exports to Cuba, including food and other agricultural commodities, medicines, medical devices, telecommunications equipment, other goods, and other items to support the Cuban people. Advancing democracy and human rights remain at As soon as you remove the embargo, without a plan in place, you're only going to make the corrupt Cuban regime/government richer. Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to Cuba ?
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On August 07 2021 05:15 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2021 04:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:On August 06 2021 20:20 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2021 18:25 Silvanel wrote:
Having lived in a communist country, I can safely say that it's not great, it's not even ok. Anyone claiming otherwise will not be a friend of mine. That being said, when communism fell across the world Cubans did not overthrow its government, there must be a reason for that. Either there were not as bad off as in Poland, DDR, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia and so on... or there must be some other factor or factors that I am missing. I mean, as history has shown fear and threat of force is often not enough (Stasi, KGB, Securitate were unable to stop revolutions). Albania didn't immediately transition either and it wasn't because Albania was doing so well. But Cuba is no North Korea, with its absolute isolationism and complete control over all media. They are too near the US for that to work, and too many Cubans have contact with those living abroad. And my own experience visiting Cuba (over 10 years ago, so things have no doubt changed), was that people don't generally seem dissatisfied. They weren't happy that it was essentially impossible to get luxuries, but they were happy that basic human requirements were guaranteed. You look at a place like Haiti or even the Dominican Republic, and they are in many ways much much worse than Cuba despite democracy and capitalism. The government is repressive and corrupt. But they do at least ensure the basic requirements. Analfabetism is very very low, housing is provided, food was generally available (I read that changed) and health care is good and accessible. Ensuring those basics satisfies a lot of people. "basic requirements" is a bit of a stretch here. All citizens who align themselves with the government definitely get basic requirements, all others get shit. You know that they give a family 7 eggs for the entire month? they pay 24 pesos a month to EVERYONE, even doctors, which equates to $1 USD. A coke can cost 400 pesos. Healthcare looks good, but its trash to the people of Cuba, and good for those who only are part of the regime. People die daily from just hunger and health. It's no better than Haiti or Dominican republic... Also they don't say they're not dissatisfied, they're scared to even say anything against the government, even to tourist, cause tourist can and have reported them. Have you even seen the news lately on how much the Cuban people are extremely dissatisfied? Imagine living and growing up in a country where being repressed is the norms. Of course they'll say they're ok. Any Cuban that interacts with tourist is put there by the government. It's not a job anybody can just get. Every part of your life living in Cuba is controlled by the government in Cuba. On August 07 2021 03:48 Starlightsun wrote:On August 06 2021 20:20 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2021 18:25 Silvanel wrote:
Having lived in a communist country, I can safely say that it's not great, it's not even ok. Anyone claiming otherwise will not be a friend of mine. That being said, when communism fell across the world Cubans did not overthrow its government, there must be a reason for that. Either there were not as bad off as in Poland, DDR, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia and so on... or there must be some other factor or factors that I am missing. I mean, as history has shown fear and threat of force is often not enough (Stasi, KGB, Securitate were unable to stop revolutions). And my own experience visiting Cuba (over 10 years ago, so things have no doubt changed), was that people don't generally seem dissatisfied. They weren't happy that it was essentially impossible to get luxuries, but they were happy that basic human requirements were guaranteed. You look at a place like Haiti or even the Dominican Republic, and they are in many ways much much worse than Cuba despite democracy and capitalism. I was surprised to learn that they have universal healthcare over there. Of course.medical supplies and equipment are scarce though because they are so poor and the embargo forbids getting supplies from the US. It was a documentary about breakthrough cancer research in Cuba that Americans were traveling there to receive, and which resulted in a partnership with a hospital in New York I believe. That hospital planned to build a research center in Cuba but it's really hard to transfer equipment and supplies. The US Embargo does not include a blockade on medical supplies or food for the Cuban people. So that's just propaganda. Here's a convo that was had earlier in the thread already. On July 14 2021 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 07:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 07:09 ShoCkeyy wrote:On July 14 2021 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 05:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hundreds of Miami Cubans head to Cuba to help the Cuban people fight and aid against the government on their own boats. I honestly hope they make it safe, but I don’t expect the Cuban government to just allow them to land on their shores. I expect quite a few deaths sadly.
This is getting out of hand with Cuba and US relations. It’s like trying to start a mini war, that can turn into a full blown war with greater powers. The last 60+ years of embargo the rest of the world recognizes as cruelly inhumane was explicitly intended to foment anti-government sentiment as a result of lacking basic supplies. So yeah, the US's position has been unconscionably barbaric for decades with the explicit intention of fomenting disorder that would ostensibly justify US military intervention. Cuba's a rare exception where the US's persistent attempts to deprive them of food & medicine, assassinate their president, invade their country, etc. have all failed because of the resolute nature of the revolution in Cuba. Just so you know, the American side of the embargo is bullshit, the Cuban government have their own blockade against American goods. They also have many other countries they can trade with like Canada. The embargo actually allows food and medicine from the US to be shipped to Cuba. Cuba’s government steals the food and medicine for itself, they created their own embargo to blame the in humane conditions against the US. What you spouted is literally Cuban government propaganda. Must be damn good propaganda to get A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with [only] the United States and Israel voting against. news.un.orgOr maybe the US side of the embargo isn't bullshit (in the way you mean) and you're repeating US government propaganda? Your source agrees with what Shockey said. Quote from your source. Every year we authorize billions of dollars’ worth of exports to Cuba, including food and other agricultural commodities, medicines, medical devices, telecommunications equipment, other goods, and other items to support the Cuban people. Advancing democracy and human rights remain at As soon as you remove the embargo, without a plan in place, you're only going to make the corrupt Cuban regime/government richer. Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to Cuba ?
Of course, I have family in Cuba, and American/Cuban myself. I've been multiple times, and so has my wife. I speak out of personal experience, and also from the perspective of my grandparents who went through hell through Bautista reign, and Fidel Castro reign.
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On August 07 2021 04:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:The US Embargo does not include a blockade on medical supplies or food for the Cuban people. So that's just propaganda. Here's a convo that was had earlier in the thread already. Show nested quote +On July 14 2021 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 07:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 07:09 ShoCkeyy wrote:On July 14 2021 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 05:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hundreds of Miami Cubans head to Cuba to help the Cuban people fight and aid against the government on their own boats. I honestly hope they make it safe, but I don’t expect the Cuban government to just allow them to land on their shores. I expect quite a few deaths sadly.
This is getting out of hand with Cuba and US relations. It’s like trying to start a mini war, that can turn into a full blown war with greater powers. The last 60+ years of embargo the rest of the world recognizes as cruelly inhumane was explicitly intended to foment anti-government sentiment as a result of lacking basic supplies. So yeah, the US's position has been unconscionably barbaric for decades with the explicit intention of fomenting disorder that would ostensibly justify US military intervention. Cuba's a rare exception where the US's persistent attempts to deprive them of food & medicine, assassinate their president, invade their country, etc. have all failed because of the resolute nature of the revolution in Cuba. Just so you know, the American side of the embargo is bullshit, the Cuban government have their own blockade against American goods. They also have many other countries they can trade with like Canada. The embargo actually allows food and medicine from the US to be shipped to Cuba. Cuba’s government steals the food and medicine for itself, they created their own embargo to blame the in humane conditions against the US. What you spouted is literally Cuban government propaganda. Must be damn good propaganda to get A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with [only] the United States and Israel voting against. news.un.orgOr maybe the US side of the embargo isn't bullshit (in the way you mean) and you're repeating US government propaganda? Your source agrees with what Shockey said. Quote from your source. Every year we authorize billions of dollars’ worth of exports to Cuba, including food and other agricultural commodities, medicines, medical devices, telecommunications equipment, other goods, and other items to support the Cuban people. Advancing democracy and human rights remain at As soon as you remove the embargo, without a plan in place, you're only going to make the corrupt Cuban regime/government richer.
If folks click the link in that quotechain you notice the quote is quite literally propaganda from the Political Coordinator for the US Mission in contradiction to the 184 countries calling for an end to the inhumane embargo for the 29th year in a row.
This seemed salient a time this came up previously.
On June 24 2021 05:13 m4ini wrote:
...
Apart from that, yeah. If 184 people vote against something that only two countries are in favour of, then you can take it pretty much for granted that you and your mate are the idiots in the room, not the 184 other people.
You take "american exceptionalism" to a whole new level bud. Not in a good way either.
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On August 07 2021 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2021 04:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:The US Embargo does not include a blockade on medical supplies or food for the Cuban people. So that's just propaganda. Here's a convo that was had earlier in the thread already. On July 14 2021 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 07:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 07:09 ShoCkeyy wrote:On July 14 2021 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 05:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hundreds of Miami Cubans head to Cuba to help the Cuban people fight and aid against the government on their own boats. I honestly hope they make it safe, but I don’t expect the Cuban government to just allow them to land on their shores. I expect quite a few deaths sadly.
This is getting out of hand with Cuba and US relations. It’s like trying to start a mini war, that can turn into a full blown war with greater powers. The last 60+ years of embargo the rest of the world recognizes as cruelly inhumane was explicitly intended to foment anti-government sentiment as a result of lacking basic supplies. So yeah, the US's position has been unconscionably barbaric for decades with the explicit intention of fomenting disorder that would ostensibly justify US military intervention. Cuba's a rare exception where the US's persistent attempts to deprive them of food & medicine, assassinate their president, invade their country, etc. have all failed because of the resolute nature of the revolution in Cuba. Just so you know, the American side of the embargo is bullshit, the Cuban government have their own blockade against American goods. They also have many other countries they can trade with like Canada. The embargo actually allows food and medicine from the US to be shipped to Cuba. Cuba’s government steals the food and medicine for itself, they created their own embargo to blame the in humane conditions against the US. What you spouted is literally Cuban government propaganda. Must be damn good propaganda to get A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with [only] the United States and Israel voting against. news.un.orgOr maybe the US side of the embargo isn't bullshit (in the way you mean) and you're repeating US government propaganda? Your source agrees with what Shockey said. Quote from your source. Every year we authorize billions of dollars’ worth of exports to Cuba, including food and other agricultural commodities, medicines, medical devices, telecommunications equipment, other goods, and other items to support the Cuban people. Advancing democracy and human rights remain at As soon as you remove the embargo, without a plan in place, you're only going to make the corrupt Cuban regime/government richer. If folks click the link in that quotechain you notice the quote is quite literally propaganda from the Political Coordinator for the US Mission in contradiction to the 184 countries calling for an end to the inhumane embargo for the 29th year in a row. This seemed salient a time this came up previously. Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 05:13 m4ini wrote:
...
Apart from that, yeah. If 184 people vote against something that only two countries are in favour of, then you can take it pretty much for granted that you and your mate are the idiots in the room, not the 184 other people.
You take "american exceptionalism" to a whole new level bud. Not in a good way either.
How many of those countries do you think would vote differently if it bound them to action?
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United States43231 Posts
Not embargoing a nation wouldn’t be called an action in my book. I don’t embargo nations every day. I do it all the time, it’s really easy.
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Northern Ireland26036 Posts
On August 07 2021 07:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2021 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 07 2021 04:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:The US Embargo does not include a blockade on medical supplies or food for the Cuban people. So that's just propaganda. Here's a convo that was had earlier in the thread already. On July 14 2021 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 07:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 07:09 ShoCkeyy wrote:On July 14 2021 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 05:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hundreds of Miami Cubans head to Cuba to help the Cuban people fight and aid against the government on their own boats. I honestly hope they make it safe, but I don’t expect the Cuban government to just allow them to land on their shores. I expect quite a few deaths sadly.
This is getting out of hand with Cuba and US relations. It’s like trying to start a mini war, that can turn into a full blown war with greater powers. The last 60+ years of embargo the rest of the world recognizes as cruelly inhumane was explicitly intended to foment anti-government sentiment as a result of lacking basic supplies. So yeah, the US's position has been unconscionably barbaric for decades with the explicit intention of fomenting disorder that would ostensibly justify US military intervention. Cuba's a rare exception where the US's persistent attempts to deprive them of food & medicine, assassinate their president, invade their country, etc. have all failed because of the resolute nature of the revolution in Cuba. Just so you know, the American side of the embargo is bullshit, the Cuban government have their own blockade against American goods. They also have many other countries they can trade with like Canada. The embargo actually allows food and medicine from the US to be shipped to Cuba. Cuba’s government steals the food and medicine for itself, they created their own embargo to blame the in humane conditions against the US. What you spouted is literally Cuban government propaganda. Must be damn good propaganda to get A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with [only] the United States and Israel voting against. news.un.orgOr maybe the US side of the embargo isn't bullshit (in the way you mean) and you're repeating US government propaganda? Your source agrees with what Shockey said. Quote from your source. Every year we authorize billions of dollars’ worth of exports to Cuba, including food and other agricultural commodities, medicines, medical devices, telecommunications equipment, other goods, and other items to support the Cuban people. Advancing democracy and human rights remain at As soon as you remove the embargo, without a plan in place, you're only going to make the corrupt Cuban regime/government richer. If folks click the link in that quotechain you notice the quote is quite literally propaganda from the Political Coordinator for the US Mission in contradiction to the 184 countries calling for an end to the inhumane embargo for the 29th year in a row. This seemed salient a time this came up previously. On June 24 2021 05:13 m4ini wrote:
...
Apart from that, yeah. If 184 people vote against something that only two countries are in favour of, then you can take it pretty much for granted that you and your mate are the idiots in the room, not the 184 other people.
You take "american exceptionalism" to a whole new level bud. Not in a good way either. How many of those countries do you think would vote differently if it bound them to action?
There wouldn’t be much action to take, I mean not embargoing Cuba doesn’t change much in either direction practically, my native land is probably not missing out on too much economic transfer under an embargo, nor would lifting it see some great new opportunities for the U.K. Although given how replacing a free trade zone of tons of countries in reasonably geographic proximity is going, perhaps we could do with Cuba.
What is the embargo ostensibly for? To precipitate regime change. What has it, absolutely failed to do in three decades of being in place? Change the regime. Are there negative externalities associated with the embargo? Absolutely.
Just seems a daft bit of policy from any other angle than the US seen to be cracking the whip at anyone who wants to go down the ostensible socialist route.
It’s a crude lens to apply, but it does seem to rather work in focusing the image of this and multiple other examples.
As an aside it seems to me that the whole blockade thing hands a giant propaganda weapon to the Cuban regime to put out that the United States and the capitalist dogs there or whatever are trying to snuff out the glorious Cuban revolution or what have you.
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On August 07 2021 07:33 KwarK wrote:
Not embargoing a nation wouldn’t be called an action in my book. I don’t embargo nations every day. I do it all the time, it’s really easy.
If you're really chill, they just let you.
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Student loan moratorium extended through the end of January, huzzah! This will surely help stop the spread of the delta variant.
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On August 07 2021 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2021 04:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:The US Embargo does not include a blockade on medical supplies or food for the Cuban people. So that's just propaganda. Here's a convo that was had earlier in the thread already. On July 14 2021 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 07:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 07:09 ShoCkeyy wrote:On July 14 2021 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 05:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hundreds of Miami Cubans head to Cuba to help the Cuban people fight and aid against the government on their own boats. I honestly hope they make it safe, but I don’t expect the Cuban government to just allow them to land on their shores. I expect quite a few deaths sadly.
This is getting out of hand with Cuba and US relations. It’s like trying to start a mini war, that can turn into a full blown war with greater powers. The last 60+ years of embargo the rest of the world recognizes as cruelly inhumane was explicitly intended to foment anti-government sentiment as a result of lacking basic supplies. So yeah, the US's position has been unconscionably barbaric for decades with the explicit intention of fomenting disorder that would ostensibly justify US military intervention. Cuba's a rare exception where the US's persistent attempts to deprive them of food & medicine, assassinate their president, invade their country, etc. have all failed because of the resolute nature of the revolution in Cuba. Just so you know, the American side of the embargo is bullshit, the Cuban government have their own blockade against American goods. They also have many other countries they can trade with like Canada. The embargo actually allows food and medicine from the US to be shipped to Cuba. Cuba’s government steals the food and medicine for itself, they created their own embargo to blame the in humane conditions against the US. What you spouted is literally Cuban government propaganda. Must be damn good propaganda to get A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with [only] the United States and Israel voting against. news.un.orgOr maybe the US side of the embargo isn't bullshit (in the way you mean) and you're repeating US government propaganda? Your source agrees with what Shockey said. Quote from your source. Every year we authorize billions of dollars’ worth of exports to Cuba, including food and other agricultural commodities, medicines, medical devices, telecommunications equipment, other goods, and other items to support the Cuban people. Advancing democracy and human rights remain at As soon as you remove the embargo, without a plan in place, you're only going to make the corrupt Cuban regime/government richer. If folks click the link in that quotechain you notice the quote is quite literally propaganda from the Political Coordinator for the US Mission in contradiction to the 184 countries calling for an end to the inhumane embargo for the 29th year in a row. This seemed salient a time this came up previously. Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 05:13 m4ini wrote:
...
Apart from that, yeah. If 184 people vote against something that only two countries are in favour of, then you can take it pretty much for granted that you and your mate are the idiots in the room, not the 184 other people.
You take "american exceptionalism" to a whole new level bud. Not in a good way either.
In fairness, while i certainly (as you quoted) agree that the US' "excuses" are bullshit, and people trying to justify them are stupid - you're not entirely right either.
Yes. Most countries wanted to end the, quote, "inhumane embargo". That doesn't mean that all is hunky dory on cuba - if you do your homework, you'll notice that most countries (i'd assume, i only checked around 10 western nations) certainly do have their reservations.
They do want to end the embargo for the peoples sake, but they also state very clearly on their respective diplomacy/embassy pages that they very much are concerned about the abuse and defacto dictatorship, with all the "greatness" that usually comes with that. Including, but not limited to, happy things like "pre-criminal social dangerousness", "pre-criminal danger" etc - all of which lead to arrest, with no due course. This is before a crime actually happens. These babies require a dude to suspect you might be able to commit a crime, usually by being "a dissident", and that's it. Straight to jail.
Or, if you get "lucky", you just receive "acts of repudiation". Where government-lit mobs (and suspected paramilitary forces, as well as security forces) go and abuse, harass and beat the shit out of people who "criticise" stuff. Of course, fully condoned by Castro.
So.. Yeah. The embargo still is bullshit, we agree there - but we very much disagree with our characterisation of the government (or general everyday life) in cuba. Hence, while i'd agree that the embargo needs to go (much like the 184 countries do, too), i also agree with all those countries that with that embargo, the current government and policies have to go, too. Just that they don't say it as blatantly, being diplomats and all.
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On August 07 2021 12:49 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2021 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 07 2021 04:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:The US Embargo does not include a blockade on medical supplies or food for the Cuban people. So that's just propaganda. Here's a convo that was had earlier in the thread already. On July 14 2021 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 07:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 07:09 ShoCkeyy wrote:On July 14 2021 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 05:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hundreds of Miami Cubans head to Cuba to help the Cuban people fight and aid against the government on their own boats. I honestly hope they make it safe, but I don’t expect the Cuban government to just allow them to land on their shores. I expect quite a few deaths sadly.
This is getting out of hand with Cuba and US relations. It’s like trying to start a mini war, that can turn into a full blown war with greater powers. The last 60+ years of embargo the rest of the world recognizes as cruelly inhumane was explicitly intended to foment anti-government sentiment as a result of lacking basic supplies. So yeah, the US's position has been unconscionably barbaric for decades with the explicit intention of fomenting disorder that would ostensibly justify US military intervention. Cuba's a rare exception where the US's persistent attempts to deprive them of food & medicine, assassinate their president, invade their country, etc. have all failed because of the resolute nature of the revolution in Cuba. Just so you know, the American side of the embargo is bullshit, the Cuban government have their own blockade against American goods. They also have many other countries they can trade with like Canada. The embargo actually allows food and medicine from the US to be shipped to Cuba. Cuba’s government steals the food and medicine for itself, they created their own embargo to blame the in humane conditions against the US. What you spouted is literally Cuban government propaganda. Must be damn good propaganda to get A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with [only] the United States and Israel voting against. news.un.orgOr maybe the US side of the embargo isn't bullshit (in the way you mean) and you're repeating US government propaganda? Your source agrees with what Shockey said. Quote from your source. Every year we authorize billions of dollars’ worth of exports to Cuba, including food and other agricultural commodities, medicines, medical devices, telecommunications equipment, other goods, and other items to support the Cuban people. Advancing democracy and human rights remain at As soon as you remove the embargo, without a plan in place, you're only going to make the corrupt Cuban regime/government richer. If folks click the link in that quotechain you notice the quote is quite literally propaganda from the Political Coordinator for the US Mission in contradiction to the 184 countries calling for an end to the inhumane embargo for the 29th year in a row. This seemed salient a time this came up previously. On June 24 2021 05:13 m4ini wrote:
...
Apart from that, yeah. If 184 people vote against something that only two countries are in favour of, then you can take it pretty much for granted that you and your mate are the idiots in the room, not the 184 other people.
You take "american exceptionalism" to a whole new level bud. Not in a good way either. In fairness, while i certainly (as you quoted) agree that the US' "excuses" are bullshit, and people trying to justify them are stupid - you're not entirely right either. Yes. Most countries wanted to end the, quote, "inhumane embargo". That doesn't mean that all is hunky dory on cuba - if you do your homework, you'll notice that most countries (i'd assume, i only checked around 10 western nations) certainly do have their reservations. They do want to end the embargo for the peoples sake, but they also state very clearly on their respective diplomacy/embassy pages that they very much are concerned about the abuse and defacto dictatorship, with all the "greatness" that usually comes with that. ... So.. Yeah. The embargo still is bullshit, we agree there - but we very much disagree with our characterisation of the government (or general everyday life) in cuba...
That's sorta the point. People can think whatever they want about Cuba without denying/defending/rationalizing/etc that the Biden administration has affirmatively joined previous US administrations in perpetuating this (especially senseless) crime against humanity.
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On August 07 2021 04:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2021 20:20 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2021 18:25 Silvanel wrote:
Having lived in a communist country, I can safely say that it's not great, it's not even ok. Anyone claiming otherwise will not be a friend of mine. That being said, when communism fell across the world Cubans did not overthrow its government, there must be a reason for that. Either there were not as bad off as in Poland, DDR, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia and so on... or there must be some other factor or factors that I am missing. I mean, as history has shown fear and threat of force is often not enough (Stasi, KGB, Securitate were unable to stop revolutions). Albania didn't immediately transition either and it wasn't because Albania was doing so well. But Cuba is no North Korea, with its absolute isolationism and complete control over all media. They are too near the US for that to work, and too many Cubans have contact with those living abroad. And my own experience visiting Cuba (over 10 years ago, so things have no doubt changed), was that people don't generally seem dissatisfied. They weren't happy that it was essentially impossible to get luxuries, but they were happy that basic human requirements were guaranteed. You look at a place like Haiti or even the Dominican Republic, and they are in many ways much much worse than Cuba despite democracy and capitalism. The government is repressive and corrupt. But they do at least ensure the basic requirements. Analfabetism is very very low, housing is provided, food was generally available (I read that changed) and health care is good and accessible. Ensuring those basics satisfies a lot of people. "basic requirements" is a bit of a stretch here. All citizens who align themselves with the government definitely get basic requirements, all others get shit. You know that they give a family 7 eggs for the entire month? they pay 24 pesos a month to EVERYONE, even doctors, which equates to $1 USD. A coke can cost 400 pesos. Healthcare looks good, but its trash to the people of Cuba, and good for those who only are part of the regime. People die daily from just hunger and health. It's no better than Haiti or Dominican republic... Also they don't say they're not dissatisfied, they're scared to even say anything against the government, even to tourist, cause tourist can and have reported them. Have you even seen the news lately on how much the Cuban people are extremely dissatisfied? Imagine living and growing up in a country where being repressed is the norms. Of course they'll say they're ok. Any Cuban that interacts with tourist is put there by the government. It's not a job anybody can just get. Every part of your life living in Cuba is controlled by the government in Cuba. Show nested quote +On August 07 2021 03:48 Starlightsun wrote:On August 06 2021 20:20 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2021 18:25 Silvanel wrote:
Having lived in a communist country, I can safely say that it's not great, it's not even ok. Anyone claiming otherwise will not be a friend of mine. That being said, when communism fell across the world Cubans did not overthrow its government, there must be a reason for that. Either there were not as bad off as in Poland, DDR, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia and so on... or there must be some other factor or factors that I am missing. I mean, as history has shown fear and threat of force is often not enough (Stasi, KGB, Securitate were unable to stop revolutions). And my own experience visiting Cuba (over 10 years ago, so things have no doubt changed), was that people don't generally seem dissatisfied. They weren't happy that it was essentially impossible to get luxuries, but they were happy that basic human requirements were guaranteed. You look at a place like Haiti or even the Dominican Republic, and they are in many ways much much worse than Cuba despite democracy and capitalism. I was surprised to learn that they have universal healthcare over there. Of course.medical supplies and equipment are scarce though because they are so poor and the embargo forbids getting supplies from the US. It was a documentary about breakthrough cancer research in Cuba that Americans were traveling there to receive, and which resulted in a partnership with a hospital in New York I believe. That hospital planned to build a research center in Cuba but it's really hard to transfer equipment and supplies. The US Embargo does not include a blockade on medical supplies or food for the Cuban people. So that's just propaganda. Here's a convo that was had earlier in the thread already. Show nested quote +On July 14 2021 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 07:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 07:09 ShoCkeyy wrote:On July 14 2021 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 05:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hundreds of Miami Cubans head to Cuba to help the Cuban people fight and aid against the government on their own boats. I honestly hope they make it safe, but I don’t expect the Cuban government to just allow them to land on their shores. I expect quite a few deaths sadly.
This is getting out of hand with Cuba and US relations. It’s like trying to start a mini war, that can turn into a full blown war with greater powers. The last 60+ years of embargo the rest of the world recognizes as cruelly inhumane was explicitly intended to foment anti-government sentiment as a result of lacking basic supplies. So yeah, the US's position has been unconscionably barbaric for decades with the explicit intention of fomenting disorder that would ostensibly justify US military intervention. Cuba's a rare exception where the US's persistent attempts to deprive them of food & medicine, assassinate their president, invade their country, etc. have all failed because of the resolute nature of the revolution in Cuba. Just so you know, the American side of the embargo is bullshit, the Cuban government have their own blockade against American goods. They also have many other countries they can trade with like Canada. The embargo actually allows food and medicine from the US to be shipped to Cuba. Cuba’s government steals the food and medicine for itself, they created their own embargo to blame the in humane conditions against the US. What you spouted is literally Cuban government propaganda. Must be damn good propaganda to get A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with [only] the United States and Israel voting against. news.un.orgOr maybe the US side of the embargo isn't bullshit (in the way you mean) and you're repeating US government propaganda? Your source agrees with what Shockey said. Quote from your source. Every year we authorize billions of dollars’ worth of exports to Cuba, including food and other agricultural commodities, medicines, medical devices, telecommunications equipment, other goods, and other items to support the Cuban people. Advancing democracy and human rights remain at As soon as you remove the embargo, without a plan in place, you're only going to make the corrupt Cuban regime/government richer.
So in your opinion the Cuban people are not revolting because fear of the brutal repression alone? I wasn't trying to say everything was fine. I got mugged when there and the taxi took me to a local hospital instead of a tourist one. The doctor was super friendly and I went to his son's birthday party. They were very critical of the government. But there was no real shortage of food despite only earning 20 pesos a month. We then met up for a coffee and the police stopped us to question him in detail about what he was doing with a tourist and I could see he was really afraid that one wrong answer would get him whisked off to the station and then maybe worse. It obviously wasn't all hunky dory.
Coca Cola is a luxury, btw. In fact, it's capitalist luxury, so the government probably cracks down on even its sale on the black market. You don't need to drink coca cola, btw. What you need are rice, beans, and some veggies to stop you from starving. I'm not saying it's great. After 3 weeks there I was heartily sick of eating rice, beans, a green salad and fried bananas for every meal, and I had the luxury of eating chicken or fish every day (lobster or pork were also available in some places).
But people didn't have to worry about themselves or their children starving, because the basic foods are readily available. Or were, when I was there. Clothes seemed a bigger problem, because decent clothes didn't seem to be included in the Castros' communist dream (other than school and work uniforms).
Obviously none of this seems okay. Getting the absolute minimum to live (and work) doesn't seem worth the brutal repression to me. But unless the information control is way more absolute than I can imagine (with half of Cuba having relatives "in exile" who still go back and forth to visit), there must be some good reason for the Castros' regime holding onto power. And brutal repression alone is generally not enough.
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On August 07 2021 16:11 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2021 04:46 ShoCkeyy wrote:On August 06 2021 20:20 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2021 18:25 Silvanel wrote:
Having lived in a communist country, I can safely say that it's not great, it's not even ok. Anyone claiming otherwise will not be a friend of mine. That being said, when communism fell across the world Cubans did not overthrow its government, there must be a reason for that. Either there were not as bad off as in Poland, DDR, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia and so on... or there must be some other factor or factors that I am missing. I mean, as history has shown fear and threat of force is often not enough (Stasi, KGB, Securitate were unable to stop revolutions). Albania didn't immediately transition either and it wasn't because Albania was doing so well. But Cuba is no North Korea, with its absolute isolationism and complete control over all media. They are too near the US for that to work, and too many Cubans have contact with those living abroad. And my own experience visiting Cuba (over 10 years ago, so things have no doubt changed), was that people don't generally seem dissatisfied. They weren't happy that it was essentially impossible to get luxuries, but they were happy that basic human requirements were guaranteed. You look at a place like Haiti or even the Dominican Republic, and they are in many ways much much worse than Cuba despite democracy and capitalism. The government is repressive and corrupt. But they do at least ensure the basic requirements. Analfabetism is very very low, housing is provided, food was generally available (I read that changed) and health care is good and accessible. Ensuring those basics satisfies a lot of people. "basic requirements" is a bit of a stretch here. All citizens who align themselves with the government definitely get basic requirements, all others get shit. You know that they give a family 7 eggs for the entire month? they pay 24 pesos a month to EVERYONE, even doctors, which equates to $1 USD. A coke can cost 400 pesos. Healthcare looks good, but its trash to the people of Cuba, and good for those who only are part of the regime. People die daily from just hunger and health. It's no better than Haiti or Dominican republic... Also they don't say they're not dissatisfied, they're scared to even say anything against the government, even to tourist, cause tourist can and have reported them. Have you even seen the news lately on how much the Cuban people are extremely dissatisfied? Imagine living and growing up in a country where being repressed is the norms. Of course they'll say they're ok. Any Cuban that interacts with tourist is put there by the government. It's not a job anybody can just get. Every part of your life living in Cuba is controlled by the government in Cuba. On August 07 2021 03:48 Starlightsun wrote:On August 06 2021 20:20 Acrofales wrote:On August 06 2021 18:25 Silvanel wrote:
Having lived in a communist country, I can safely say that it's not great, it's not even ok. Anyone claiming otherwise will not be a friend of mine. That being said, when communism fell across the world Cubans did not overthrow its government, there must be a reason for that. Either there were not as bad off as in Poland, DDR, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia and so on... or there must be some other factor or factors that I am missing. I mean, as history has shown fear and threat of force is often not enough (Stasi, KGB, Securitate were unable to stop revolutions). And my own experience visiting Cuba (over 10 years ago, so things have no doubt changed), was that people don't generally seem dissatisfied. They weren't happy that it was essentially impossible to get luxuries, but they were happy that basic human requirements were guaranteed. You look at a place like Haiti or even the Dominican Republic, and they are in many ways much much worse than Cuba despite democracy and capitalism. I was surprised to learn that they have universal healthcare over there. Of course.medical supplies and equipment are scarce though because they are so poor and the embargo forbids getting supplies from the US. It was a documentary about breakthrough cancer research in Cuba that Americans were traveling there to receive, and which resulted in a partnership with a hospital in New York I believe. That hospital planned to build a research center in Cuba but it's really hard to transfer equipment and supplies. The US Embargo does not include a blockade on medical supplies or food for the Cuban people. So that's just propaganda. Here's a convo that was had earlier in the thread already. On July 14 2021 08:27 JimmiC wrote:On July 14 2021 07:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 07:09 ShoCkeyy wrote:On July 14 2021 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 14 2021 05:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Hundreds of Miami Cubans head to Cuba to help the Cuban people fight and aid against the government on their own boats. I honestly hope they make it safe, but I don’t expect the Cuban government to just allow them to land on their shores. I expect quite a few deaths sadly.
This is getting out of hand with Cuba and US relations. It’s like trying to start a mini war, that can turn into a full blown war with greater powers. The last 60+ years of embargo the rest of the world recognizes as cruelly inhumane was explicitly intended to foment anti-government sentiment as a result of lacking basic supplies. So yeah, the US's position has been unconscionably barbaric for decades with the explicit intention of fomenting disorder that would ostensibly justify US military intervention. Cuba's a rare exception where the US's persistent attempts to deprive them of food & medicine, assassinate their president, invade their country, etc. have all failed because of the resolute nature of the revolution in Cuba. Just so you know, the American side of the embargo is bullshit, the Cuban government have their own blockade against American goods. They also have many other countries they can trade with like Canada. The embargo actually allows food and medicine from the US to be shipped to Cuba. Cuba’s government steals the food and medicine for itself, they created their own embargo to blame the in humane conditions against the US. What you spouted is literally Cuban government propaganda. Must be damn good propaganda to get A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with [only] the United States and Israel voting against. news.un.orgOr maybe the US side of the embargo isn't bullshit (in the way you mean) and you're repeating US government propaganda? Your source agrees with what Shockey said. Quote from your source. Every year we authorize billions of dollars’ worth of exports to Cuba, including food and other agricultural commodities, medicines, medical devices, telecommunications equipment, other goods, and other items to support the Cuban people. Advancing democracy and human rights remain at As soon as you remove the embargo, without a plan in place, you're only going to make the corrupt Cuban regime/government richer. So in your opinion the Cuban people are not revolting because fear of the brutal repression alone? I wasn't trying to say everything was fine. I got mugged when there and the taxi took me to a local hospital instead of a tourist one. The doctor was super friendly and I went to his son's birthday party. They were very critical of the government. But there was no real shortage of food despite only earning 20 pesos a month. We then met up for a coffee and the police stopped us to question him in detail about what he was doing with a tourist and I could see he was really afraid that one wrong answer would get him whisked off to the station and then maybe worse. It obviously wasn't all hunky dory. Coca Cola is a luxury, btw. In fact, it's capitalist luxury, so the government probably cracks down on even its sale on the black market. You don't need to drink coca cola, btw. What you need are rice, beans, and some veggies to stop you from starving. I'm not saying it's great. After 3 weeks there I was heartily sick of eating rice, beans, a green salad and fried bananas for every meal, and I had the luxury of eating chicken or fish every day (lobster or pork were also available in some places). But people didn't have to worry about themselves or their children starving, because the basic foods are readily available. Or were, when I was there. Clothes seemed a bigger problem, because decent clothes didn't seem to be included in the Castros' communist dream (other than school and work uniforms). Obviously none of this seems okay. Getting the absolute minimum to live (and work) doesn't seem worth the brutal repression to me. But unless the information control is way more absolute than I can imagine (with half of Cuba having relatives "in exile" who still go back and forth to visit), there must be some good reason for the Castros' regime holding onto power. And brutal repression alone is generally not enough.
When I visited in 2018 I got the impression that the general populace is relatively content. Basic stuff is covered, although one of the taxi drivers was complaining bitterly that to make any money you had to work in the tourist industry - local jobs give 100x less money. I think the reason the government hasn't been overthrown is that inequality is really low in Cuba so everyone is kind of okay with their lot, they just take it as it is.
Edit: yeah, rice and beans did get a bit old. Luckily you could also find good ceviche and the roasted fish tended to be delicious. Just don't expect miracles of flavor with meat.
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The inequality thing might be something. The Castros may be brutal dictators but without the markets for their cash crops they can never get a ton of money and so education and healthcare isn't a bad thing to keep power with unlike most tyrant states.
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Anyone have any theories on what Biden will do with regards to student loans? Nothing seems obvious right now. He doesn't seem to be suggesting anything but he doesn't seem to intend on stopping his postponing.
One consideration: If he said he was going to just postpone all loan interest/payments for 10 years, what would that do? Would some industry somewhere implode? What are the actual repercussions of just casting an imprisonment spell on student loans? Would it be considered functionally equivalent to forgiveness? One funny thing is pausing student loans for like 20 years and letting their balances be comparatively small due to inflation lol
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Probably keep postponing. There's no chance that Congress will vote to forgive it, and they can't turn loans back on lest it allow for more spread of the delta variant. The income from student loan payments goes into providing future federal student aid, so sucks for future prospective college students I guess - either we add it to the debt or they get a trillion and change less in aid.
On a related note, I'm being moved to a new student loan service provider for the second time in a year. Twice in a row my loan servicer said they're getting out of the business and not renewing their contract because "the complexity of servicing loans increased but the income did not." Curious.
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I don't think they have any idea on what to do about student loans. If you turn on the interest and demand payments millennials will suffer greatly on any sort of wealth creation and will become very unhappy in a decade or two when they realize they can't retire and their parents generation screwed them over hard.
Making student loans zero percent interest and just government-guaranteed isn't something I think is that crazy. The entire industry is built on US soverign debt. Expecting student to be financed at a much worse rate than any other form of economic investment is just silly. The fact that you can't declare bankruptcy and get out from under the massive interest payments removes any type of sympathy the loan companies may get from me.
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EPT
