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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3139

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-06 20:36:42
April 06 2021 20:35 GMT
#62761
Here's a well-written article that neatly summarizes the discussion being had here and lays out why its a mistake to even entertain nonsense like the notion that the prior election was suspect.

+ Show Spoiler +
Georgia’s new election law SB 202, which many experts decried as an attack on the fundamental fairness of the state’s elections, was compared to Jim Crow by many leading Democrats. Now some observers are pushing back, arguing the bill falls well short of a democratic apocalyptic.

In the New York Times, Nate Cohn concluded that “the law’s voting provisions are unlikely to significantly affect turnout or Democratic chances.” Slate’s Will Saletan notes that some provisions really are troubling, but that the bill also contains good provisions and that critics have “overhyped” their concerns. Brian Riedl, a senior fellow at the conservative Manhattan Institute, writes that “the idea this is an epic war on voting rights is simply absurd.”

On one level, it’s a fair topic of conversation, and the critics make some good points. Research on the effect of voter ID requirements often does find small or no effect on turnout; President Joe Biden’s description of the bill as “Jim Crow on steroids” certainly overstates the case.

But at the same time, some of the policy conversation about the Georgia bill is deeply frustrating. The close reading often takes place in a vacuum, disconnected from the context that gave rise to the law in the first place.

The fundamental truth about SB 202 is this: Its very existence is predicated on a lie. The bill’s passage was motivated by unfounded claims of fraud in the Georgia presidential elections — lies that Donald Trump spread and continues to spread, with the help of both state and national Republicans.

“President Biden, the left, and the national media are determined to destroy the sanctity and security of the ballot box,” Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp said in a statement after the bill’s signing.

The problem with discussing Georgia’s law solely in the narrow terms of what this or that provision does is that it implicitly concedes that the law is a reasonable enterprise to begin with: that the rationale for its passage is legitimate rather than an effort to further a fraudulent and dangerous narrative.

“The conversation is something like the mid-2000s debate over whether torture works. It basically doesn’t, but to even have that debate is to have surrendered something,” writes Seth Masket, a political scientist at the University of Denver.

The Georgia bill is not merely the sum of its provisions in a country where 60 percent of Republicans believe the 2020 presidential election “was stolen” from Trump through voter fraud — it validates a lie that is corroding American democracy. It also extends and deepens a much older Republican campaign to rig the system in their favor.
The debate over the bill’s provisions, briefly explained

Let’s start by getting clear on what Georgia’s new law actually does.

SB 202 is a big piece of legislation, containing a number of provisions touching on different aspects of election law. In his analysis, Cohn divides these provisions into four buckets: new regulations on absentee voting, new in-person voting rules, changes to runoff elections, and expansions of the state legislature’s power over election administration.

Many critics of Georgia’s law, myself included, have argued that this last set of provisions is the most troubling one. It gives Georgia’s Republican-controlled General Assembly effective control over the State Board of Elections and empowers the state board to take over local county boards — functionally allowing Republicans to handpick the people in charge of disqualifying ballots in Democratic-leaning places like Atlanta.

Saletan argues that there are sufficient safeguards in the bill to prevent abuse of these powers, but this is a minority view. Voting rights advocates, experts I’ve spoken to, and even Cohn all think there’s a serious potential for abuse here. “This represents an obvious threat to American democracy,” he concludes after an in-depth analysis of the new provisions.

The more serious arguments that Georgia’s law isn’t so dangerous focus on Cohn’s other three buckets, which include regulations that:

Extend voter ID requirements to absentee ballots
Sharply limit the use of ballot drop boxes
Expand weekend voting during the early voting period
Require large precincts to take steps to limit crowd length
Criminalize giving voters with food and water while they wait in line (with an exception for poll workers)
Shorten the time between Election Day and any subsequent runoff elections from nine weeks to four, sharply contracting the early voting period for runoffs

These provisions will clearly make it somewhat harder to vote by mail; the impact on in-person voting is harder to discern but could plausibly make it harder to vote in Democratic-leaning precincts and easier in Republican ones.

But here’s the surprising thing: There’s some decent political science research that making voting marginally easier or harder, through policies like voter ID laws or expanding the use of drop boxes, doesn’t really affect turnout all that much.

“In the contemporary United States, with such wide and ready access to the ballot, changes around the edges don’t disenfranchise people,” Rich Lowry writes in National Review. ”It’s hard to believe that one real voter is going to be kept from voting by the new [Georgia] rules.”

Lowry is overstating the case. Experts like Charlotte Hill, a PhD candidate at UC-Berkeley who studies elections, cited research suggesting that so-called “convenience” reforms making voting easier really do matter for turnout.

The likely effect of Georgia’s ballot access provisions is the sort of thing that reasonable people can disagree about. The evidence on their effects is genuinely mixed; it’s fair, even important, to try to pinpoint exactly what effects certain provisions of the bill are likely to have.

But it’s not the most helpful way to think, and frame the conversation, about the Georgia bill.
The Georgia bill validates Trump’s big lie

Policies are enacted to solve problems. In the case of SB 202, the alleged “problem” is simple: that voters have had a crisis of confidence in the results of the 2020 vote and the integrity of Georgia’s elections.

“The way we begin to restore confidence in our voting system is by passing this bill,” Georgia Rep. Barry Fleming, the bill’s sponsor, said during a floor debate on his proposal.

But this is a problem entirely of Republicans’ own making. From Trump on down, key party leaders and operatives have worked to sow doubt in the validity of the 2020 results. By passing SB 202, Georgia’s Republicans are merely ratifying their own lie.

Think about this from the point of view of someone who believes the Trump story of the 2020 election: that mail-in ballots were fraudulent, that in-person votes are the only reliable ones, that local election officials in heavily Democratic areas like Atlanta cheated, and that feckless state-level Republicans like Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger refused to intervene to stop them out of cowardice.

This is all a ludicrous fantasy, of course. But if you really believed it and wanted to prevent it in the future, then you would have designed a bill like SB 202: one that makes mail-in voting harder and takes power away from voting officials who failed to “stop the steal” in 2020.

And that, in fact, appears to have been what was on state legislators’ minds when they wrote the bill. Stephen Fowler, a Georgia reporter who covers elections, writes that “the vast majority of Georgia’s rank and file Republican elected officials jumped on board a series of hare-brained lawsuits and schemes to try and overthrow the state’s elections.” In December, Georgia House Republicans held a series of hearings in which speakers like Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani were invited to spout theories about how the election was stolen from Trump.

“Democrats are relying on the always-suspect absentee balloting process to inch ahead in Georgia and other close states,” Fleming wrote in December. “If elections were like coastal cities, absentee balloting would be the shady part of town down near the docks you do not want to wander into because the chance of being shanghaied is significant.”

Josh McLaurin, a Democrat in Georgia’s House, told me that the state GOP is “a party whose election policy is driven by Trump’s ‘big lie’” — reverse-engineering SB 202 to solve the wholly fictitious problems invented by Trump and his allies.

The new rules aren’t just premised on a lie. Their enactment also validates that lie.
The successes and failures of the GOP’s anti-democratic agenda

Here’s another piece of context the debate over SB 202’s provisions is missing: The GOP has been working to fix state election rules across the country in its favor for years now, a campaign that’s accelerating in the wake of Trump’s claims of a stolen election.

According to the Brennan Center, a nonpartisan institute that studies voting rights, there are currently 361 bills in 47 statehouses around the country that would restrict the franchise — most of which attempt to put limits on absentee votes. These bills, according to Brennan, are “a backlash to 2020’s historic voter turnout” being pushed “under the pretense of responding to baseless and racist allegations of voter fraud and election irregularities.”

So far, these bills have only passed in Republican-controlled state governments like Georgia’s — and recent history suggests they’re only likely to pass in such governments. A new working paper by the University of Washington’s Jake Grumbach attempted to measure the health of democracy in all 50 states between 2000 and 2018. The findings were unambiguous: Republican control over state government was correlated with large and measurable declines in the health of a state’s democracy.

It’s fair to say, at this point, that the Republican Party is engaged in a long-running, at times systematic attempt to change the rules in their favor. Not every tactic they’ve used in the fight has been equally effective; gerrymandering, at both the state and national level, has a much clearer partisan effect than voter ID laws.

But the fact that some of these laws don’t end up being effective at suppressing turnout isn’t a defense of the GOP. Attempted murder is still a crime. And focusing too heavily on the details of any one bill not only misses this overall context, but also serves to normalize the GOP’s anti-democratic project.

Of course Democrats shouldn’t lie, or even exaggerate, about Georgia’s law. But they’re right that the bill contains several extremely dangerous new provisions, and they’re also right that the broader context suggests the stakes of our current fight over voting really are existential.

“We’re so obsessed with estimating causal effects of suppression efforts we have ceded important normative ground,” writes Hakeem Jefferson, a political scientist at Stanford. “The right to vote is sacred. Access to the ballot should be expanded, not burdened.”

There’s only one party in modern history whose presidential candidate refused to concede when they lost a national election. It’s the party whose candidate is still insisting that he won the 2020 election, whose partisans violently attacked the US Capitol on January 6 in a last-ditch effort to keep their man in power. Now, that party is using its fantasies of fraud to justify legislation like what passed in Georgia.

And we can expect more attacks on election integrity in the coming months from GOP-controlled statehouses — because the Republican Party, as an institution, seems perfectly willing to use Trump’s big lie as a pretext to seize more power.


Yes, the Georgia election law is that bad
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 06 2021 20:45 GMT
#62762
--- Nuked ---
Cbole
Profile Joined March 2021
33 Posts
April 06 2021 20:53 GMT
#62763
On April 07 2021 05:35 farvacola wrote:
Here's a well-written article that neatly summarizes the discussion being had here and lays out why its a mistake to even entertain nonsense like the notion that the prior election was suspect.

+ Show Spoiler +
Georgia’s new election law SB 202, which many experts decried as an attack on the fundamental fairness of the state’s elections, was compared to Jim Crow by many leading Democrats. Now some observers are pushing back, arguing the bill falls well short of a democratic apocalyptic.

In the New York Times, Nate Cohn concluded that “the law’s voting provisions are unlikely to significantly affect turnout or Democratic chances.” Slate’s Will Saletan notes that some provisions really are troubling, but that the bill also contains good provisions and that critics have “overhyped” their concerns. Brian Riedl, a senior fellow at the conservative Manhattan Institute, writes that “the idea this is an epic war on voting rights is simply absurd.”

On one level, it’s a fair topic of conversation, and the critics make some good points. Research on the effect of voter ID requirements often does find small or no effect on turnout; President Joe Biden’s description of the bill as “Jim Crow on steroids” certainly overstates the case.

But at the same time, some of the policy conversation about the Georgia bill is deeply frustrating. The close reading often takes place in a vacuum, disconnected from the context that gave rise to the law in the first place.

The fundamental truth about SB 202 is this: Its very existence is predicated on a lie. The bill’s passage was motivated by unfounded claims of fraud in the Georgia presidential elections — lies that Donald Trump spread and continues to spread, with the help of both state and national Republicans.

“President Biden, the left, and the national media are determined to destroy the sanctity and security of the ballot box,” Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp said in a statement after the bill’s signing.

The problem with discussing Georgia’s law solely in the narrow terms of what this or that provision does is that it implicitly concedes that the law is a reasonable enterprise to begin with: that the rationale for its passage is legitimate rather than an effort to further a fraudulent and dangerous narrative.

“The conversation is something like the mid-2000s debate over whether torture works. It basically doesn’t, but to even have that debate is to have surrendered something,” writes Seth Masket, a political scientist at the University of Denver.

The Georgia bill is not merely the sum of its provisions in a country where 60 percent of Republicans believe the 2020 presidential election “was stolen” from Trump through voter fraud — it validates a lie that is corroding American democracy. It also extends and deepens a much older Republican campaign to rig the system in their favor.
The debate over the bill’s provisions, briefly explained

Let’s start by getting clear on what Georgia’s new law actually does.

SB 202 is a big piece of legislation, containing a number of provisions touching on different aspects of election law. In his analysis, Cohn divides these provisions into four buckets: new regulations on absentee voting, new in-person voting rules, changes to runoff elections, and expansions of the state legislature’s power over election administration.

Many critics of Georgia’s law, myself included, have argued that this last set of provisions is the most troubling one. It gives Georgia’s Republican-controlled General Assembly effective control over the State Board of Elections and empowers the state board to take over local county boards — functionally allowing Republicans to handpick the people in charge of disqualifying ballots in Democratic-leaning places like Atlanta.

Saletan argues that there are sufficient safeguards in the bill to prevent abuse of these powers, but this is a minority view. Voting rights advocates, experts I’ve spoken to, and even Cohn all think there’s a serious potential for abuse here. “This represents an obvious threat to American democracy,” he concludes after an in-depth analysis of the new provisions.

The more serious arguments that Georgia’s law isn’t so dangerous focus on Cohn’s other three buckets, which include regulations that:

Extend voter ID requirements to absentee ballots
Sharply limit the use of ballot drop boxes
Expand weekend voting during the early voting period
Require large precincts to take steps to limit crowd length
Criminalize giving voters with food and water while they wait in line (with an exception for poll workers)
Shorten the time between Election Day and any subsequent runoff elections from nine weeks to four, sharply contracting the early voting period for runoffs

These provisions will clearly make it somewhat harder to vote by mail; the impact on in-person voting is harder to discern but could plausibly make it harder to vote in Democratic-leaning precincts and easier in Republican ones.

But here’s the surprising thing: There’s some decent political science research that making voting marginally easier or harder, through policies like voter ID laws or expanding the use of drop boxes, doesn’t really affect turnout all that much.

“In the contemporary United States, with such wide and ready access to the ballot, changes around the edges don’t disenfranchise people,” Rich Lowry writes in National Review. ”It’s hard to believe that one real voter is going to be kept from voting by the new [Georgia] rules.”

Lowry is overstating the case. Experts like Charlotte Hill, a PhD candidate at UC-Berkeley who studies elections, cited research suggesting that so-called “convenience” reforms making voting easier really do matter for turnout.

The likely effect of Georgia’s ballot access provisions is the sort of thing that reasonable people can disagree about. The evidence on their effects is genuinely mixed; it’s fair, even important, to try to pinpoint exactly what effects certain provisions of the bill are likely to have.

But it’s not the most helpful way to think, and frame the conversation, about the Georgia bill.
The Georgia bill validates Trump’s big lie

Policies are enacted to solve problems. In the case of SB 202, the alleged “problem” is simple: that voters have had a crisis of confidence in the results of the 2020 vote and the integrity of Georgia’s elections.

“The way we begin to restore confidence in our voting system is by passing this bill,” Georgia Rep. Barry Fleming, the bill’s sponsor, said during a floor debate on his proposal.

But this is a problem entirely of Republicans’ own making. From Trump on down, key party leaders and operatives have worked to sow doubt in the validity of the 2020 results. By passing SB 202, Georgia’s Republicans are merely ratifying their own lie.

Think about this from the point of view of someone who believes the Trump story of the 2020 election: that mail-in ballots were fraudulent, that in-person votes are the only reliable ones, that local election officials in heavily Democratic areas like Atlanta cheated, and that feckless state-level Republicans like Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger refused to intervene to stop them out of cowardice.

This is all a ludicrous fantasy, of course. But if you really believed it and wanted to prevent it in the future, then you would have designed a bill like SB 202: one that makes mail-in voting harder and takes power away from voting officials who failed to “stop the steal” in 2020.

And that, in fact, appears to have been what was on state legislators’ minds when they wrote the bill. Stephen Fowler, a Georgia reporter who covers elections, writes that “the vast majority of Georgia’s rank and file Republican elected officials jumped on board a series of hare-brained lawsuits and schemes to try and overthrow the state’s elections.” In December, Georgia House Republicans held a series of hearings in which speakers like Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani were invited to spout theories about how the election was stolen from Trump.

“Democrats are relying on the always-suspect absentee balloting process to inch ahead in Georgia and other close states,” Fleming wrote in December. “If elections were like coastal cities, absentee balloting would be the shady part of town down near the docks you do not want to wander into because the chance of being shanghaied is significant.”

Josh McLaurin, a Democrat in Georgia’s House, told me that the state GOP is “a party whose election policy is driven by Trump’s ‘big lie’” — reverse-engineering SB 202 to solve the wholly fictitious problems invented by Trump and his allies.

The new rules aren’t just premised on a lie. Their enactment also validates that lie.
The successes and failures of the GOP’s anti-democratic agenda

Here’s another piece of context the debate over SB 202’s provisions is missing: The GOP has been working to fix state election rules across the country in its favor for years now, a campaign that’s accelerating in the wake of Trump’s claims of a stolen election.

According to the Brennan Center, a nonpartisan institute that studies voting rights, there are currently 361 bills in 47 statehouses around the country that would restrict the franchise — most of which attempt to put limits on absentee votes. These bills, according to Brennan, are “a backlash to 2020’s historic voter turnout” being pushed “under the pretense of responding to baseless and racist allegations of voter fraud and election irregularities.”

So far, these bills have only passed in Republican-controlled state governments like Georgia’s — and recent history suggests they’re only likely to pass in such governments. A new working paper by the University of Washington’s Jake Grumbach attempted to measure the health of democracy in all 50 states between 2000 and 2018. The findings were unambiguous: Republican control over state government was correlated with large and measurable declines in the health of a state’s democracy.

It’s fair to say, at this point, that the Republican Party is engaged in a long-running, at times systematic attempt to change the rules in their favor. Not every tactic they’ve used in the fight has been equally effective; gerrymandering, at both the state and national level, has a much clearer partisan effect than voter ID laws.

But the fact that some of these laws don’t end up being effective at suppressing turnout isn’t a defense of the GOP. Attempted murder is still a crime. And focusing too heavily on the details of any one bill not only misses this overall context, but also serves to normalize the GOP’s anti-democratic project.

Of course Democrats shouldn’t lie, or even exaggerate, about Georgia’s law. But they’re right that the bill contains several extremely dangerous new provisions, and they’re also right that the broader context suggests the stakes of our current fight over voting really are existential.

“We’re so obsessed with estimating causal effects of suppression efforts we have ceded important normative ground,” writes Hakeem Jefferson, a political scientist at Stanford. “The right to vote is sacred. Access to the ballot should be expanded, not burdened.”

There’s only one party in modern history whose presidential candidate refused to concede when they lost a national election. It’s the party whose candidate is still insisting that he won the 2020 election, whose partisans violently attacked the US Capitol on January 6 in a last-ditch effort to keep their man in power. Now, that party is using its fantasies of fraud to justify legislation like what passed in Georgia.

And we can expect more attacks on election integrity in the coming months from GOP-controlled statehouses — because the Republican Party, as an institution, seems perfectly willing to use Trump’s big lie as a pretext to seize more power.


Yes, the Georgia election law is that bad


Thank you for the read. I think I agree with pretty much all that is here, aside from the notion that it validates the lie. I think, personally, it exaggerates the nefariousness from the GOP, but it is Vox. But the summation that the bill itself produces negligible benefit or significantly suppressed voter turnout, and that the response was overblown, I think is pretty sound.
Cbole
Profile Joined March 2021
33 Posts
April 06 2021 21:10 GMT
#62764
On April 07 2021 05:45 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2021 05:35 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 04:55 JimmiC wrote:
On April 07 2021 03:51 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 03:30 JimmiC wrote:
On April 07 2021 03:00 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 02:41 JimmiC wrote:
On April 07 2021 02:14 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:43 Simberto wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]

People don't trust the election process because they don't understand the election process, and they trust Donald Trump instead of security officials who have said, repeatedly, that the most recent election was one of the most secure elections ever. The only way to dispel these myths is to educate people on this, which includes being able to establish - and communicate - that this lack of trust is unfounded.

And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.

Mark every person who voted on a list. Then, after the election is done, count the amount of ballots at the polling place. If the number is not equal to the number of people who have voted, there is a problem. Have multiple people with varying party affiliations there for the counting, and have them all sign off on the result. Safeguard the ballots after the election for recounts and investigations into tampering.

Basically, have a huge paper trail at every step of the way. Have people sign for stuff. That is how you build trust in an election. Not by muddling the waters with regards to who gets to vote and who doesn't.

Not having a president who constantly claims that the election was fraudulent without any proof whatsoever, just because he lost, also helps.

Those are all things that exist. Procedurally, some of these things were not followed, and any attempt to look into the election was denied by people claiming the fairest election ever.

Regardless, I do not want this to be a rehash of what happened on the election. To reiterate and clarify, I absolutely, totally, 100% believe the correct person won, and the actions of Donald Trump in the following months stoked the fire. That is not what I am asking or debating.

The entire reason I brought up was to establish that there are people who question the integrity of the election, and that that is the reason for the Georgia bill. Regardless of the background as to why the bill was passed, it has been.

With that being said, I would like to ask again, how does the Georgia bill disenfranchise voters? The only legitimate answer that could be the case that was brought up was regarding voter rolls.


The people questioning it are doing so based on false pretenses, ones that you continue to state as fact. Why would you change laws to stop something that didn't happen instead of having those people who know what happened be honest with people?

Sourcing any of your "stories" about these mail in stuff would also be handy, because if it is just people making things up it really is not relevant.

Again, I am not trying to derail the conversation any further on any of the election stuff. Merely trying to understand why and how the Georgia bill is seen as disenfranchising voters. I am happy tp have this conversation another time, but it seems like posters (including yourself) are focusing in on the election fraud claims, rather than my intended purpose of bringing it up as a background for the Georgia bill.

To counter your point about doing anything election related, there is currently HR1 put forth by Democrats with the stated goal of:

This bill addresses voter access, election integrity, election security, political spending, and ethics for the three branches of government


If integrity and security were not in question, why change it? According to your logic.

Full disclaimer here: I have only heard about HR1, I have not read it. I am using the stated goal only as a counter-argument to refusing to change or update a law without any damages, that is generally supported by those against the GA bill.

You have strawman'd my point sir.

It is not that everything is perfect and nothing should change. It is that the basis for the bill you want to discuss, and the reasons for that bill are made up.

You say this is needed to "help voter confidence", but this bill will not do that because it does not address the elephant in the room that you keep dancing away from, that all they have to do is say " Trump was lying, there was not voter fraud, we checked and investigated, publicly and privately with a over 300 million dollar war chest. We filed copious lawsuits and checked every angle. The election was fair a honest, just this time the Democrats won".

That from the Republican party would do far more for voter confidence than a bill in one state that is addressing issues that did not happen.



The bill you bring up seems fine, clearly money has too much influence in your political system and clearly states to get rid of gerrymandering for partisan reasons. Apparently though according to republicans independent redistricting commissions are not fair? And auto enrolling voters is not fair because more of those voters are Democratic? Does that sound like people interested in fair elections, or people only concerned with winning with unpopular policy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_People_Act


So you see the difference, this Bill is about dealing with issues that are real, and the other one is not.



Voter ID has been a very hot issue for a while in the United States. If you disagree with the premise as to why it was brought up this time, that is fine, but that does not inherently make the bill bad. So I ask again, why is this bill considered to be Jim Crow on steroids, according to Joe Biden, and destroying democracy?

As far as HR1 goes, again I have not read deeply into the bill, but from what I can see based of the wikipedia article you linked is that it directly infringes upon states running their elections, which is something expressly granted by the Constitution. Also, it expands mail in voting which I can see being another issue. However, I digress. My knowledge is not enough to get into a deep debate about that.

Yes it does, it makes it illegal for states to run unfair elections. You want states to have that right?

Yes it does, intention matters because it is the best indication for how it will be used. And like 4 or 5 people explained to you why that is.

It is destroying democracy because it is trying to give legitimatcy to the lie that the election was not fair and needs changes because of it. It also chips away everytime someone, especially in power, continues to repeat the lie as if it is a legitimate point of view.


Georgia certified their results and sent electors for Biden. Biden received their electoral votes. There is no admittance from Georgia that their election was illegitimate or stolen. If the state wants to strengthen their election integrity, per the Constitution, it is their perogative. The state is not barred from passing election laws simply because there was controversy previous to them passing a law.

If you have issues with the law itself, GREAT! I look forward to hearing your rationale ABOUT THE BILL rather than just repeating that you don't think the election was stolen. I have already stated multiple times that I do not believe it was stolen. So AGAIN, I ask, WHAT, SPECIFICALLY, IS YOUR ISSUE WITH THE BILL, not with the people passing it?

People keep posting why it is bad, why are you acting like we cannot or have not? See Farvs article if you need another source.

But yes context matters so we discuss that as well, because the world does not work where you look at one thing and ignore all the other stuff going around it. Yes Georgia did, but the Republicans did not, very few have.



We are all still waiting on you answering how this will "strengthen the election integrity". You continually use the marketing terms and zero substance, it is quite low quality posting. Can you please explain how it will do these things you keep claiming it will do and what problem it will solve? Or are you the big government, more red tape, rules for the sake of rules party now?


Your fancy world salads, ability to post tons of words but never say much and avoid specific question you don't like is very familiar. Are you sure you have not posted before you became a long term lurker out of the shadows to only post on a politics thread in a starcraft forum? The timing of when you appeared and when this other poster went away is quite striking, it is all very strange.

Your aggression and outright rudeness makes me think our conversation is done. This is why conservatives of any kind get droven away from this sub and why it is becoming more and more of a single ideology, because there is so much hostility and so little discussion. That goes beyond this site, but I think it is evident here. This will be my last response to you.

To address your points: the three responses I have received in regards to the question were that voter ID disenfranchises disproportionately poor people, to which I pointed to a provision in the bill itself that directly combats that, that it validates the notion that the election was stolen, which I disagree with, and your (apparent) assertion that Republicans passing a voting bill would be inherently bad and racist because of who they are, which I think is laughable. On this front I will admit maybe point 2 is a concern, I just disagree and think the point is moot.

Other than the first point, nobody has addressed contents of the bill that some claim is destroying democracy. Instead people latched on to when I brought up election integrity, which I should have known better, and I have been responding to those posts instead. You, however, have been repeatedly hostile toward me and saying that I am the one not answering question without ever even approaching the question of the CONTENT of the bill.

You are right that context matters to an extent. If a person tries to create legislation that places harsher penalties on sexual misconduct shortly after being exonerated from an accusation of sexual mosconduct, it doesn't mean that the legislation is bad, or invalid.

As far as how this bill helps election integrity: requiring an ID, extended hours to vote and mandating more uniform practices across the state all help to do that. Further limiting the ability to bribe someone does that. I don't understand how it doesn't, which is why I posited the question. A lot of people are mentioning intent to disenfranchise people, but as farva's article points out that effect is negligible.

And finally, to your last point, I don't know who you are referring to but I should think people would prefer to broaden the point of views they come in contact with, not narrow them. I have posted on two topics here, 1 being mininum wage to which I got a new perspective, and this one, which, from what I could tell so far, kind of affirms that this is not the doom and gloom, Jim crow laws that Democrat-leading media and corporations are leading me to believe.

JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 06 2021 21:28 GMT
#62765
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23239 Posts
April 06 2021 21:33 GMT
#62766
And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.


It is in most places but not universally. It went up from ~80% of votes having a verifiable paper trail to ~90% after 2016 but there are still millions of votes without any verifiable/auditable paper trail in US elections.

Using voter registration and turnout data, the Brennan Center estimates that as many as 12% of voters, or around 16 million people, will vote on paperless equipment in November 2020. Security experts have said that paper-based systems provide better security because they create a record that voters can review before casting their ballots and election workers can use them to audit results.

Still, the number represents an improvement from 2016, when 20 percent of voters cast ballots on paperless equipment.


apnews.com

I don't want to get wrapped up in the rest, I just want to clarify this since it's long been a bother of mine.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8538 Posts
April 06 2021 21:35 GMT
#62767
oh I thought calling it a couple of posts ago would be slightly premature but now I reckon the jig is up. kinda sure PBU detected

past conservative grievances in an account not even a month old?

good stuff.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
April 06 2021 21:55 GMT
#62768
On April 07 2021 06:35 Doublemint wrote:
oh I thought calling it a couple of posts ago would be slightly premature but now I reckon the jig is up. kinda sure PBU detected

past conservative grievances in an account not even a month old?

good stuff.


One thing I learned being a moderator of another big forum is how obsessed some people are with avoiding bans or hiding their account to pretend someone else agrees with them, lol.
EnDeR_
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Spain2695 Posts
April 06 2021 22:28 GMT
#62769
On April 07 2021 05:25 Cbole wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2021 04:54 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 07 2021 02:14 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:43 Simberto wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:26 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:14 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:03 Cbole wrote:
On April 06 2021 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
There is absolutely zero question regarding the integrity of the recent elections. They were fair and square. Those are just facts. The only people who claim otherwise are the ones that passed this legislation.

You can’t be at the same time lying your teeth out to cast doubt on the election and then pretend that you pass a legislation because you care about the trust people have about that same election. That just doesn’t work.

Look, it’s quite simple: when republicans are lying, it’s not having a “liberal bias” to point it out. Facts are not an opinion.


Whew. Did not expect such a hostile reply.

1) Regardless of if you agree or not, there has been a question for both this election and the one in 2016. That is a fact. I personally believe there was some suspicious behavior that occured but the correct person won, and that courts were correct in not hearing cases, or overturning the election.

That being said, it is undeniable that in certain states, certain groups overstepped their powers to initiate how the election was run in regards to mail-in voting. Disenfranchising those voters who voted legally because the people who instituted the policy overstepped would have been a terrible solution, so again I agree it should not be overturned. But to say there is no right to question the integrity of the election and everything was done right seems like a stretch.

2) I would like an explanation as to how I am lying through my teeth? When over two elections people on both sides of the aisle has screamed fraud and claimed "not-my-president," I don't think it is unreasonable to combat that.

3) It isn't liberal bias to point out when one side is lying, no. However, it is to say that the Georgia bill is worse than the Jim Crow era, and automatically assume that every thing a conservative does is either done with the intent of racism, or inherently bad.


You need to bring some actual evidence that there was anything at all untoward happening during these elections if you want to be taken seriously.

Again, whether anything did or did not happen is not the point. The point I was making is that there are a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT TRUST THE ELECTION PROCESS. Whether it is founded or not is beside the point. Trying to reinforce election practices should be something that can be universally agreed upon, regardless of side, which in my opinion the Georgia bill does.

I understand everyone is this thread has a liberal bias. I admitted from the very beginning I lean conservative. I would appreciate it, very much, if people either provided evidence that this bill will disenfranchise people, and explain to me why it is a bad thing to verify identity.


People don't trust the election process because they don't understand the election process, and they trust Donald Trump instead of security officials who have said, repeatedly, that the most recent election was one of the most secure elections ever. The only way to dispel these myths is to educate people on this, which includes being able to establish - and communicate - that this lack of trust is unfounded.

And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.

Mark every person who voted on a list. Then, after the election is done, count the amount of ballots at the polling place. If the number is not equal to the number of people who have voted, there is a problem. Have multiple people with varying party affiliations there for the counting, and have them all sign off on the result. Safeguard the ballots after the election for recounts and investigations into tampering.

Basically, have a huge paper trail at every step of the way. Have people sign for stuff. That is how you build trust in an election. Not by muddling the waters with regards to who gets to vote and who doesn't.

Not having a president who constantly claims that the election was fraudulent without any proof whatsoever, just because he lost, also helps.

Those are all things that exist. Procedurally, some of these things were not followed, and any attempt to look into the election was denied by people claiming the fairest election ever.

Regardless, I do not want this to be a rehash of what happened on the election. To reiterate and clarify, I absolutely, totally, 100% believe the correct person won, and the actions of Donald Trump in the following months stoked the fire. That is not what I am asking or debating.

The entire reason I brought up was to establish that there are people who question the integrity of the election, and that that is the reason for the Georgia bill. Regardless of the background as to why the bill was passed, it has been.

With that being said, I would like to ask again, how does the Georgia bill disenfranchise voters? The only legitimate answer that could be the case that was brought up was regarding voter rolls.


Do you have a source for the bolded part?

Not to get off topic, again, I am not debating the election or the outcome. Here are some sources to back the claim, this is as far as I will discuss.

For the first claim:
https://thenewamerican.com/michigan-judge-secretary-of-state-broke-law-with-absentee-ballot-directive-in-2020-election/
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/judge-rules-virginia-election-law-changes-illegal

For the second:
https://electionwiz.com/2021/02/16/maricopa-county-continues-stonewalling-ariz-senate/
https://headlines360.news/2021/03/09/ballot-shredding-happens-in-georgia-to-destroy-evidence/



You were replying to:

And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.

Mark every person who voted on a list. Then, after the election is done, count the amount of ballots at the polling place. If the number is not equal to the number of people who have voted, there is a problem. Have multiple people with varying party affiliations there for the counting, and have them all sign off on the result. Safeguard the ballots after the election for recounts and investigations into tampering.

Basically, have a huge paper trail at every step of the way. Have people sign for stuff. That is how you build trust in an election. Not by muddling the waters with regards to who gets to vote and who doesn't.

Not having a president who constantly claims that the election was fraudulent without any proof whatsoever, just because he lost, also helps


With:
Those are all things that exist. Procedurally, some of these things were not followed, and any attempt to look into the election was denied by people claiming the fairest election ever.


And your first source is about a lawsuit that deemed that some representative did not have the authority to set the standard for what is acceptable for signatures to be considered valid in mail in ballots.

The second is about an injunction that was successful so mail in ballots received after the deadline without a postmark would not be counted.

The other two I didn't read, because, seriously, 'the election wizard' does not sound like a reputable source.

Please, if you have a source for your bolded statement, I'd be happy to read it. Please, if you have nothing relevant, please don't quote some rando article, I don't enjoy wasting my time.


estás más desubicao q un croissant en un plato de nécoras
Cbole
Profile Joined March 2021
33 Posts
April 06 2021 22:48 GMT
#62770
On April 07 2021 07:28 EnDeR_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2021 05:25 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 04:54 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 07 2021 02:14 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:43 Simberto wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:26 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:14 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:03 Cbole wrote:
On April 06 2021 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
There is absolutely zero question regarding the integrity of the recent elections. They were fair and square. Those are just facts. The only people who claim otherwise are the ones that passed this legislation.

You can’t be at the same time lying your teeth out to cast doubt on the election and then pretend that you pass a legislation because you care about the trust people have about that same election. That just doesn’t work.

Look, it’s quite simple: when republicans are lying, it’s not having a “liberal bias” to point it out. Facts are not an opinion.


Whew. Did not expect such a hostile reply.

1) Regardless of if you agree or not, there has been a question for both this election and the one in 2016. That is a fact. I personally believe there was some suspicious behavior that occured but the correct person won, and that courts were correct in not hearing cases, or overturning the election.

That being said, it is undeniable that in certain states, certain groups overstepped their powers to initiate how the election was run in regards to mail-in voting. Disenfranchising those voters who voted legally because the people who instituted the policy overstepped would have been a terrible solution, so again I agree it should not be overturned. But to say there is no right to question the integrity of the election and everything was done right seems like a stretch.

2) I would like an explanation as to how I am lying through my teeth? When over two elections people on both sides of the aisle has screamed fraud and claimed "not-my-president," I don't think it is unreasonable to combat that.

3) It isn't liberal bias to point out when one side is lying, no. However, it is to say that the Georgia bill is worse than the Jim Crow era, and automatically assume that every thing a conservative does is either done with the intent of racism, or inherently bad.


You need to bring some actual evidence that there was anything at all untoward happening during these elections if you want to be taken seriously.

Again, whether anything did or did not happen is not the point. The point I was making is that there are a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT TRUST THE ELECTION PROCESS. Whether it is founded or not is beside the point. Trying to reinforce election practices should be something that can be universally agreed upon, regardless of side, which in my opinion the Georgia bill does.

I understand everyone is this thread has a liberal bias. I admitted from the very beginning I lean conservative. I would appreciate it, very much, if people either provided evidence that this bill will disenfranchise people, and explain to me why it is a bad thing to verify identity.


People don't trust the election process because they don't understand the election process, and they trust Donald Trump instead of security officials who have said, repeatedly, that the most recent election was one of the most secure elections ever. The only way to dispel these myths is to educate people on this, which includes being able to establish - and communicate - that this lack of trust is unfounded.

And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.

Mark every person who voted on a list. Then, after the election is done, count the amount of ballots at the polling place. If the number is not equal to the number of people who have voted, there is a problem. Have multiple people with varying party affiliations there for the counting, and have them all sign off on the result. Safeguard the ballots after the election for recounts and investigations into tampering.

Basically, have a huge paper trail at every step of the way. Have people sign for stuff. That is how you build trust in an election. Not by muddling the waters with regards to who gets to vote and who doesn't.

Not having a president who constantly claims that the election was fraudulent without any proof whatsoever, just because he lost, also helps.

Those are all things that exist. Procedurally, some of these things were not followed, and any attempt to look into the election was denied by people claiming the fairest election ever.

Regardless, I do not want this to be a rehash of what happened on the election. To reiterate and clarify, I absolutely, totally, 100% believe the correct person won, and the actions of Donald Trump in the following months stoked the fire. That is not what I am asking or debating.

The entire reason I brought up was to establish that there are people who question the integrity of the election, and that that is the reason for the Georgia bill. Regardless of the background as to why the bill was passed, it has been.

With that being said, I would like to ask again, how does the Georgia bill disenfranchise voters? The only legitimate answer that could be the case that was brought up was regarding voter rolls.


Do you have a source for the bolded part?

Not to get off topic, again, I am not debating the election or the outcome. Here are some sources to back the claim, this is as far as I will discuss.

For the first claim:
https://thenewamerican.com/michigan-judge-secretary-of-state-broke-law-with-absentee-ballot-directive-in-2020-election/
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/judge-rules-virginia-election-law-changes-illegal

For the second:
https://electionwiz.com/2021/02/16/maricopa-county-continues-stonewalling-ariz-senate/
https://headlines360.news/2021/03/09/ballot-shredding-happens-in-georgia-to-destroy-evidence/



You were replying to:

Show nested quote +
And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.

Mark every person who voted on a list. Then, after the election is done, count the amount of ballots at the polling place. If the number is not equal to the number of people who have voted, there is a problem. Have multiple people with varying party affiliations there for the counting, and have them all sign off on the result. Safeguard the ballots after the election for recounts and investigations into tampering.

Basically, have a huge paper trail at every step of the way. Have people sign for stuff. That is how you build trust in an election. Not by muddling the waters with regards to who gets to vote and who doesn't.

Not having a president who constantly claims that the election was fraudulent without any proof whatsoever, just because he lost, also helps


With:
Show nested quote +
Those are all things that exist. Procedurally, some of these things were not followed, and any attempt to look into the election was denied by people claiming the fairest election ever.


And your first source is about a lawsuit that deemed that some representative did not have the authority to set the standard for what is acceptable for signatures to be considered valid in mail in ballots.

The second is about an injunction that was successful so mail in ballots received after the deadline without a postmark would not be counted.

The other two I didn't read, because, seriously, 'the election wizard' does not sound like a reputable source.

Please, if you have a source for your bolded statement, I'd be happy to read it. Please, if you have nothing relevant, please don't quote some rando article, I don't enjoy wasting my time.



My mistake, the conversations were bleeding together and I mistakenly thought I was replying to procedures not being followed for the first two posts. The last two are two instances of the election being impeded. Specifically the Arizona legislature calling for an audit and being ignored was widely publicized. Here are alternative resources, and here is a more relevant articles about papers trails:

Arizona:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/breaking-arizonas-maricopa-county-board-supervisors-calls-emergency-meeting-morning-delay-senate-audit-2020-election-results/

Alternative:
https://www.publishedreporter.com/2021/04/02/arizona-senate-hires-independent-auditors-to-perform-full-forensic-audit-of-2020-election-in-maricopa-county/

GOP State Senate members had recently butted heads with the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors over access to ballots or the tabulation machines, but a legal victory last month opened the doors for the newly-announced Republican-led audit of the election results.


Paper trail:
https://www.independentsentinel.com/still-no-chain-of-custody-for-over-400000-ballots-in-ga/

Destruction of ballots:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/breaking-fbi-claims-jurisdiction-yesterday-took-control-shredded-ballots-analyzed-georgia-sends-back-shredder/




maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5563 Posts
April 06 2021 23:44 GMT
#62771
On April 07 2021 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2021 06:35 Doublemint wrote:
oh I thought calling it a couple of posts ago would be slightly premature but now I reckon the jig is up. kinda sure PBU detected

past conservative grievances in an account not even a month old?

good stuff.


One thing I learned being a moderator of another big forum is how obsessed some people are with avoiding bans or hiding their account to pretend someone else agrees with them, lol.

Big forum, I think that's a bit generous. :-P
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
April 07 2021 00:03 GMT
#62772
On April 07 2021 08:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2021 06:55 Mohdoo wrote:
On April 07 2021 06:35 Doublemint wrote:
oh I thought calling it a couple of posts ago would be slightly premature but now I reckon the jig is up. kinda sure PBU detected

past conservative grievances in an account not even a month old?

good stuff.


One thing I learned being a moderator of another big forum is how obsessed some people are with avoiding bans or hiding their account to pretend someone else agrees with them, lol.

Big forum, I think that's a bit generous. :-P

Haha, WCReplays was pretty big once upon a time, at least in my eyes. I used to post on much smaller forums prior to WCR and TL
Husyelt
Profile Blog Joined May 2020
United States832 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-07 05:23:00
April 07 2021 05:16 GMT
#62773
Oy CBole, a heads up that I learned a while ago, if an article or webpage is filled with
“BREAKING”, “TRENDING”, and “_______ is Demanding!” Every paragraph line... it’s probably not a great source of information.

These are all words and framing devices to catch your attention and let your eyes scan the page instead of providing very dry by the numbers details of a story. Or leave proper sources and links.
You're getting cynical and that won't do I'd throw the rose tint back on the exploded view
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25419 Posts
April 07 2021 05:32 GMT
#62774
On April 07 2021 14:16 Husyelt wrote:
Oy CBole, a heads up that I learned a while ago, if an article or webpage is filled with
“BREAKING”, “TRENDING”, and “_______ is Demanding!” Every paragraph line... it’s probably not a great source of information.

These are all words and framing devices to catch your attention and let your eyes scan the page instead of providing very dry by the numbers details of a story. Or leave proper sources and links.

Maybe I’m just more down with the kids and the modern world but isn’t that basically every site nowadays? Can’t say I like it but I’ve adjusted!

That said if your site banner is a bald eagle wresting the American flag off a hammer and sickle then perhaps that does trigger me suspicions.

As per usual America makes something many, many nations have no issues with whatsoever into a contentious one.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42738 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-07 08:43:37
April 07 2021 08:37 GMT
#62775
On April 07 2021 07:48 Cbole wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2021 07:28 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 07 2021 05:25 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 04:54 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 07 2021 02:14 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:43 Simberto wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:26 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:14 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:03 Cbole wrote:
[quote]

Whew. Did not expect such a hostile reply.

1) Regardless of if you agree or not, there has been a question for both this election and the one in 2016. That is a fact. I personally believe there was some suspicious behavior that occured but the correct person won, and that courts were correct in not hearing cases, or overturning the election.

That being said, it is undeniable that in certain states, certain groups overstepped their powers to initiate how the election was run in regards to mail-in voting. Disenfranchising those voters who voted legally because the people who instituted the policy overstepped would have been a terrible solution, so again I agree it should not be overturned. But to say there is no right to question the integrity of the election and everything was done right seems like a stretch.

2) I would like an explanation as to how I am lying through my teeth? When over two elections people on both sides of the aisle has screamed fraud and claimed "not-my-president," I don't think it is unreasonable to combat that.

3) It isn't liberal bias to point out when one side is lying, no. However, it is to say that the Georgia bill is worse than the Jim Crow era, and automatically assume that every thing a conservative does is either done with the intent of racism, or inherently bad.


You need to bring some actual evidence that there was anything at all untoward happening during these elections if you want to be taken seriously.

Again, whether anything did or did not happen is not the point. The point I was making is that there are a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT TRUST THE ELECTION PROCESS. Whether it is founded or not is beside the point. Trying to reinforce election practices should be something that can be universally agreed upon, regardless of side, which in my opinion the Georgia bill does.

I understand everyone is this thread has a liberal bias. I admitted from the very beginning I lean conservative. I would appreciate it, very much, if people either provided evidence that this bill will disenfranchise people, and explain to me why it is a bad thing to verify identity.


People don't trust the election process because they don't understand the election process, and they trust Donald Trump instead of security officials who have said, repeatedly, that the most recent election was one of the most secure elections ever. The only way to dispel these myths is to educate people on this, which includes being able to establish - and communicate - that this lack of trust is unfounded.

And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.

Mark every person who voted on a list. Then, after the election is done, count the amount of ballots at the polling place. If the number is not equal to the number of people who have voted, there is a problem. Have multiple people with varying party affiliations there for the counting, and have them all sign off on the result. Safeguard the ballots after the election for recounts and investigations into tampering.

Basically, have a huge paper trail at every step of the way. Have people sign for stuff. That is how you build trust in an election. Not by muddling the waters with regards to who gets to vote and who doesn't.

Not having a president who constantly claims that the election was fraudulent without any proof whatsoever, just because he lost, also helps.

Those are all things that exist. Procedurally, some of these things were not followed, and any attempt to look into the election was denied by people claiming the fairest election ever.

Regardless, I do not want this to be a rehash of what happened on the election. To reiterate and clarify, I absolutely, totally, 100% believe the correct person won, and the actions of Donald Trump in the following months stoked the fire. That is not what I am asking or debating.

The entire reason I brought up was to establish that there are people who question the integrity of the election, and that that is the reason for the Georgia bill. Regardless of the background as to why the bill was passed, it has been.

With that being said, I would like to ask again, how does the Georgia bill disenfranchise voters? The only legitimate answer that could be the case that was brought up was regarding voter rolls.


Do you have a source for the bolded part?

Not to get off topic, again, I am not debating the election or the outcome. Here are some sources to back the claim, this is as far as I will discuss.

For the first claim:
https://thenewamerican.com/michigan-judge-secretary-of-state-broke-law-with-absentee-ballot-directive-in-2020-election/
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/judge-rules-virginia-election-law-changes-illegal

For the second:
https://electionwiz.com/2021/02/16/maricopa-county-continues-stonewalling-ariz-senate/
https://headlines360.news/2021/03/09/ballot-shredding-happens-in-georgia-to-destroy-evidence/



You were replying to:

And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.

Mark every person who voted on a list. Then, after the election is done, count the amount of ballots at the polling place. If the number is not equal to the number of people who have voted, there is a problem. Have multiple people with varying party affiliations there for the counting, and have them all sign off on the result. Safeguard the ballots after the election for recounts and investigations into tampering.

Basically, have a huge paper trail at every step of the way. Have people sign for stuff. That is how you build trust in an election. Not by muddling the waters with regards to who gets to vote and who doesn't.

Not having a president who constantly claims that the election was fraudulent without any proof whatsoever, just because he lost, also helps


With:
Those are all things that exist. Procedurally, some of these things were not followed, and any attempt to look into the election was denied by people claiming the fairest election ever.


And your first source is about a lawsuit that deemed that some representative did not have the authority to set the standard for what is acceptable for signatures to be considered valid in mail in ballots.

The second is about an injunction that was successful so mail in ballots received after the deadline without a postmark would not be counted.

The other two I didn't read, because, seriously, 'the election wizard' does not sound like a reputable source.

Please, if you have a source for your bolded statement, I'd be happy to read it. Please, if you have nothing relevant, please don't quote some rando article, I don't enjoy wasting my time.



My mistake, the conversations were bleeding together and I mistakenly thought I was replying to procedures not being followed for the first two posts. The last two are two instances of the election being impeded. Specifically the Arizona legislature calling for an audit and being ignored was widely publicized. Here are alternative resources, and here is a more relevant articles about papers trails:

Arizona:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/breaking-arizonas-maricopa-county-board-supervisors-calls-emergency-meeting-morning-delay-senate-audit-2020-election-results/

Alternative:
https://www.publishedreporter.com/2021/04/02/arizona-senate-hires-independent-auditors-to-perform-full-forensic-audit-of-2020-election-in-maricopa-county/

Show nested quote +
GOP State Senate members had recently butted heads with the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors over access to ballots or the tabulation machines, but a legal victory last month opened the doors for the newly-announced Republican-led audit of the election results.


Paper trail:
https://www.independentsentinel.com/still-no-chain-of-custody-for-over-400000-ballots-in-ga/

Destruction of ballots:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/breaking-fbi-claims-jurisdiction-yesterday-took-control-shredded-ballots-analyzed-georgia-sends-back-shredder/

Those websites are all fake news buddy. They’re Infowars style conspiracy theory nonsense, not journalism. How is it that you can’t tell the difference between the two? The people writing for publishedreporter are not published reporters, no more than the people writing for bigfootofficial are officially Bigfoot. A published reporter is a reporter who is published by an actual circulated journal, not just someone who registered that url.

I clicked on one of the links and there was a giant pop up poll demanding my views on Biden putting Obama on the Supreme Court. I clicked to vote no and it took me to renewtheright.com to block Biden’s Marxist agenda. It’s still not clear which seat they didn’t want Biden to give former President Obama.

You can’t be serious here. This is how you get news?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8538 Posts
April 07 2021 09:48 GMT
#62776
the question " this is how you get the news?" is unfortunately obsolete in the year 2021. this is how way too many people "GET" the news. "free news is inherently good" in people's heads and so they go to a "free" social media site to get their "free news". conveniently accessable on their mobile tracking and data mining devices.

the wisdom of _there is no free_ lunch never really arrived in people's heads when it comes to the media sphere. free usually means you as the user and/or reader are getting sold out. either by lack of even a shred of proper journalistic integrity or the data trail you leave behind along the way. or both.

the defund public broadcaster push by - not exclusively, but overwhelmingly- right wing governments ties in neatly with the avalanche of bullshit "independent truth teller" sites the last couple of years.

if you throw out the "established gatekeepers" and get in "your gatekeepers" you are golden as your bubble will never be penetrated. perpetual state of war and fake outrage. some juicy infotainment stories (red meat) for the drones. panem at circenses.

the US media landscape is the ultimate negative example of this. and others across the pond have taken notice how you can operate and prosper under such conditions and how to implement these conditions.
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8538 Posts
April 07 2021 10:29 GMT
#62777
to add something new after while:

Public health experts urge Americans to not skip 2nd vaccine dose

Dr. Paul Offit, the director of the vaccine education center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, urges people to get both shots despite the side effects associated with the second dose.

"Although it's true the second dose can cause fatigue and fever and headache and muscle ache, it is a small price to pay to be protected against this disease for a more durable or longer length period of time," Offit said.

He said that the overwhelming scientific evidence shows that both doses offer the best protection against COVID-19.

...

"Vaccines are the only way out of this pandemic and we are not going to get out of this pandemic unless we have at least 80% population immunity," Offit said. "You owe it to yourself and everyone you come in contact with to get this vaccine."

Dr. Shereef Elnahal, the CEO of University Hospital in Newark, New Jersey, also urges people not to be afraid of the mild side effects involving the second dose.

"You are seeing rising cases across the country now but very notably in New York City and in New Jersey because folks are more relaxed with restrictions and also because we have a largely unvaccinated population — only a little over 20%," Elnahal said. "So all of that increases risk to you and to your loved ones."

The race to vaccinate a majority of Americans is intensifying with the rise of new variants. Health officials are warning that the U.S. is on the threshold of the fourth surge of this deadly virus.



Lookin in from the vaccine hungry EU, this is quite a problem to have. people simply not showing up for a second jab lol.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 07 2021 11:54 GMT
#62778
--- Nuked ---
EnDeR_
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Spain2695 Posts
April 07 2021 12:43 GMT
#62779
On April 07 2021 07:48 Cbole wrote:
My mistake, the conversations were bleeding together and I mistakenly thought I was replying to procedures not being followed for the first two posts. The last two are two instances of the election being impeded. Specifically the Arizona legislature calling for an audit and being ignored was widely publicized. Here are alternative resources, and here is a more relevant articles about papers trails:

Arizona:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/breaking-arizonas-maricopa-county-board-supervisors-calls-emergency-meeting-morning-delay-senate-audit-2020-election-results/

Alternative:
https://www.publishedreporter.com/2021/04/02/arizona-senate-hires-independent-auditors-to-perform-full-forensic-audit-of-2020-election-in-maricopa-county/

Show nested quote +
GOP State Senate members had recently butted heads with the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors over access to ballots or the tabulation machines, but a legal victory last month opened the doors for the newly-announced Republican-led audit of the election results.


Paper trail:
https://www.independentsentinel.com/still-no-chain-of-custody-for-over-400000-ballots-in-ga/

Destruction of ballots:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/breaking-fbi-claims-jurisdiction-yesterday-took-control-shredded-ballots-analyzed-georgia-sends-back-shredder/



Oooff, these sources... they're really low-quality journalism, and that's being caritative. Did you actually read these in detail?

1. The first one reports on an emergency meeting by the Maricopa County board of supervisors about the upcoming audit. It doesn't actually say that anything irregular occurred, it didn't report on the discussion of the meeting. It just reports that the meeting occurred. How does this prove the point you were making?

2. The second one reports that the senate hired independent auditors. Again, it doesn't report on what the auditors found, or how this was irregular. The news piece is 'independent auditors were hired'. How does this prove the point you were making?

Funnily enough, they felt the need to include the following in their reporting:

Cyber Ninjas, the company leading the GOP-mandated audit of Maricopa County, is owned and operated by Doug Logan, a Florida resident who reportedly has spread conspiracy theories about the 2020 election results in the past.


3. This one doesn't even try to address the who, what, why, where basics of journalism. Who is supposed to provide the documentation? Where is it supposed to have been delivered? What happened to it? The lack of specifics is concerning.

4. The second line on this 'news piece' is: 'The deep state is stealing evidence in Georgia related to the 2020 election'. But ignoring that: What were they shredding? Why were they shredding it? Where were they shredding it? Who was shredding it? This 'news' piece is just confusing. It doesn't actually say that any ballots were shredded, just that the FBI took control of a truck full of shredded material and that they ordered the shredding to continue. How does this prove any points you were making?

For the last time, do you have an actual source that points to an actual irregularity that actually happened? I wasted my time again.
estás más desubicao q un croissant en un plato de nécoras
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7890 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-07 13:17:15
April 07 2021 13:09 GMT
#62780
On April 07 2021 17:37 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2021 07:48 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 07:28 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 07 2021 05:25 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 04:54 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 07 2021 02:14 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:43 Simberto wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:26 Cbole wrote:
On April 07 2021 01:14 EnDeR_ wrote:
[quote]

You need to bring some actual evidence that there was anything at all untoward happening during these elections if you want to be taken seriously.

Again, whether anything did or did not happen is not the point. The point I was making is that there are a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT TRUST THE ELECTION PROCESS. Whether it is founded or not is beside the point. Trying to reinforce election practices should be something that can be universally agreed upon, regardless of side, which in my opinion the Georgia bill does.

I understand everyone is this thread has a liberal bias. I admitted from the very beginning I lean conservative. I would appreciate it, very much, if people either provided evidence that this bill will disenfranchise people, and explain to me why it is a bad thing to verify identity.


People don't trust the election process because they don't understand the election process, and they trust Donald Trump instead of security officials who have said, repeatedly, that the most recent election was one of the most secure elections ever. The only way to dispel these myths is to educate people on this, which includes being able to establish - and communicate - that this lack of trust is unfounded.

And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.

Mark every person who voted on a list. Then, after the election is done, count the amount of ballots at the polling place. If the number is not equal to the number of people who have voted, there is a problem. Have multiple people with varying party affiliations there for the counting, and have them all sign off on the result. Safeguard the ballots after the election for recounts and investigations into tampering.

Basically, have a huge paper trail at every step of the way. Have people sign for stuff. That is how you build trust in an election. Not by muddling the waters with regards to who gets to vote and who doesn't.

Not having a president who constantly claims that the election was fraudulent without any proof whatsoever, just because he lost, also helps.

Those are all things that exist. Procedurally, some of these things were not followed, and any attempt to look into the election was denied by people claiming the fairest election ever.

Regardless, I do not want this to be a rehash of what happened on the election. To reiterate and clarify, I absolutely, totally, 100% believe the correct person won, and the actions of Donald Trump in the following months stoked the fire. That is not what I am asking or debating.

The entire reason I brought up was to establish that there are people who question the integrity of the election, and that that is the reason for the Georgia bill. Regardless of the background as to why the bill was passed, it has been.

With that being said, I would like to ask again, how does the Georgia bill disenfranchise voters? The only legitimate answer that could be the case that was brought up was regarding voter rolls.


Do you have a source for the bolded part?

Not to get off topic, again, I am not debating the election or the outcome. Here are some sources to back the claim, this is as far as I will discuss.

For the first claim:
https://thenewamerican.com/michigan-judge-secretary-of-state-broke-law-with-absentee-ballot-directive-in-2020-election/
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/judge-rules-virginia-election-law-changes-illegal

For the second:
https://electionwiz.com/2021/02/16/maricopa-county-continues-stonewalling-ariz-senate/
https://headlines360.news/2021/03/09/ballot-shredding-happens-in-georgia-to-destroy-evidence/



You were replying to:

And if it were really about trust in the elections, then the best way to handle this is to make sure that there is always a paper trail which can (and will) be audited. I assume that is already happening in the US, i know that it is happening here in Germany.

Mark every person who voted on a list. Then, after the election is done, count the amount of ballots at the polling place. If the number is not equal to the number of people who have voted, there is a problem. Have multiple people with varying party affiliations there for the counting, and have them all sign off on the result. Safeguard the ballots after the election for recounts and investigations into tampering.

Basically, have a huge paper trail at every step of the way. Have people sign for stuff. That is how you build trust in an election. Not by muddling the waters with regards to who gets to vote and who doesn't.

Not having a president who constantly claims that the election was fraudulent without any proof whatsoever, just because he lost, also helps


With:
Those are all things that exist. Procedurally, some of these things were not followed, and any attempt to look into the election was denied by people claiming the fairest election ever.


And your first source is about a lawsuit that deemed that some representative did not have the authority to set the standard for what is acceptable for signatures to be considered valid in mail in ballots.

The second is about an injunction that was successful so mail in ballots received after the deadline without a postmark would not be counted.

The other two I didn't read, because, seriously, 'the election wizard' does not sound like a reputable source.

Please, if you have a source for your bolded statement, I'd be happy to read it. Please, if you have nothing relevant, please don't quote some rando article, I don't enjoy wasting my time.



My mistake, the conversations were bleeding together and I mistakenly thought I was replying to procedures not being followed for the first two posts. The last two are two instances of the election being impeded. Specifically the Arizona legislature calling for an audit and being ignored was widely publicized. Here are alternative resources, and here is a more relevant articles about papers trails:

Arizona:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/breaking-arizonas-maricopa-county-board-supervisors-calls-emergency-meeting-morning-delay-senate-audit-2020-election-results/

Alternative:
https://www.publishedreporter.com/2021/04/02/arizona-senate-hires-independent-auditors-to-perform-full-forensic-audit-of-2020-election-in-maricopa-county/

GOP State Senate members had recently butted heads with the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors over access to ballots or the tabulation machines, but a legal victory last month opened the doors for the newly-announced Republican-led audit of the election results.


Paper trail:
https://www.independentsentinel.com/still-no-chain-of-custody-for-over-400000-ballots-in-ga/

Destruction of ballots:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/breaking-fbi-claims-jurisdiction-yesterday-took-control-shredded-ballots-analyzed-georgia-sends-back-shredder/

Those websites are all fake news buddy. They’re Infowars style conspiracy theory nonsense, not journalism. How is it that you can’t tell the difference between the two? The people writing for publishedreporter are not published reporters, no more than the people writing for bigfootofficial are officially Bigfoot. A published reporter is a reporter who is published by an actual circulated journal, not just someone who registered that url.

I clicked on one of the links and there was a giant pop up poll demanding my views on Biden putting Obama on the Supreme Court. I clicked to vote no and it took me to renewtheright.com to block Biden’s Marxist agenda. It’s still not clear which seat they didn’t want Biden to give former President Obama.

You can’t be serious here. This is how you get news?

People not understanding what a good source is / how to hierarchize sources is imo the one biggest problem in politics today. I am just puzzled anyone can post such garbage sources and expect to be taken seriously.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
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