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Not sure what Bruce Castor is doing but vamping and privately praying he gets the bag after all of this.
I guess he knows it doesn’t matter what he does, he could literally do the Chewbacca defence and the Republicans would still vote for an acquittal because their brains are either so rotted or they’re terrified of the QAnon crowd.
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I don't think Castor arguing that Trump already was removed by the people by losing the election, and if he's committed a crime he should be arrested, is an angle that makes Trump happy lol
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Nice, we got the age old conservative argument that it is the Democrats fault if we have a civil war. Not Trump and Friends who consistently try to undermine society and governments.
They’re never wrong about anything these Republicans. Never, ever their fault.
Edit: McConnell is claiming it’s unconstitutional to try a former president. Same man blocked a trial of Trump while he was president. Maybe Biden should try an insurrection attempt at the end of his presidency.
Is there any wonder why people are increasing fed up with so-called rule of law when people abuse it openly like so and play around with constitutional hermeneutics? We’ve already entered failed country territory when senators openly refuse to do the right thing, the only thing keeping this thing afloat is the sheer inertia of America’s economy.
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The constitutionality question got raised again after the opening statements, and the vote was 56-44, up 1 from before. Bill Cassidy, an additional republican joined the original 5. Him and Toomey are the two surprises for the vote. Small indicator that at least a few of them are open, given a bad enough showing (and that opening was... certainly one).
edit:
Cassidy, speaking about his vote change, directly cited the awful defense.
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Seems super stupid to have the senate vote on what is constitutional. Are constitutional amendments as simple as a senate majority..?
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Think of it less as a vote on the constitutionality of the trial and more as a vote on whether to dismiss the proceedings because they're unconstitutional.
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"This trial will plunge the country into civil war" appears to be an identical brand of rabble rousing to that which led to the trial in the first place.
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it's really a shame that this whole process is in the end a vain endeavor as the outcome is predetermined by political cowardice and self preservation.
I am not sold on the idea that the damage is lessened for the GOP by not making a clean cut from Trump extremists and crazies, such a party inevitably will run into trouble. not that they have a good choice either way but you lie in the bed you make. one can only hope Dems seize the moment and are able to punish the sleaziness on full display in the coming elections and not repeat the 2010 mistakes.
just on principle though and looking back at the months of agitating against the integrity of the election and the ludicrous fraud allegations - all laughed out of court rooms across the country... even by judges appointed by Trump himself... culminating in the deadly attack by a mob frenzied by those same lies and same people and most R senators actually consider no repercussions or sanctions.
a stance known as "Nixon did nothing wrong". while remaining mostly politically unscathed. on steroids. the madness, just staggering lol. who actually needs authoritarian rivals and their anti-democracy propaganda if you pull shit like this?
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On February 10 2021 05:38 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2021 05:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 10 2021 04:53 Zambrah wrote:
Yeah I think the MAGA violence stuff is going to have to be tamped out hard to be prevented, imo I think it should start by removing from all forms of power the people who act as figureheads for the movement in Congress like Ted Cruz. From there, rub Republicans noses in the insurrection at the US Capitol over and over, rub their noses in the eventual voting-not-to-impeach-Trump that they're probably going to do, and have a very aggressive agenda that brings more equality to the poor and disenfranchised people in the US. Huge government job creation for renewal energy, job training, minimum wage increase ASAP (15 is the barest assed minimum too, it should be closer to 20 or 25) and taxing the hell out of the rich. Make America at least look like it works for someone other than it's richest class.
Oh, and throw universal healthcare in there. They could just pull a Trump and call them 'the terrorist party' every time they refer to Republicans for the next few years. Something akin to that, can’t just be that though, I think you’re going to need to give a lot of Democrats reason to be enthusiastic beyond Republicans Bad to make sure there aren’t any nasty fascy surprises, imo.
It wouldnt' be wise. If the democrats start targeting the republicans as a block, they will solidify it instead of fracturing it.
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On February 10 2021 16:26 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2021 05:38 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 05:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 10 2021 04:53 Zambrah wrote:
Yeah I think the MAGA violence stuff is going to have to be tamped out hard to be prevented, imo I think it should start by removing from all forms of power the people who act as figureheads for the movement in Congress like Ted Cruz. From there, rub Republicans noses in the insurrection at the US Capitol over and over, rub their noses in the eventual voting-not-to-impeach-Trump that they're probably going to do, and have a very aggressive agenda that brings more equality to the poor and disenfranchised people in the US. Huge government job creation for renewal energy, job training, minimum wage increase ASAP (15 is the barest assed minimum too, it should be closer to 20 or 25) and taxing the hell out of the rich. Make America at least look like it works for someone other than it's richest class.
Oh, and throw universal healthcare in there. They could just pull a Trump and call them 'the terrorist party' every time they refer to Republicans for the next few years. Something akin to that, can’t just be that though, I think you’re going to need to give a lot of Democrats reason to be enthusiastic beyond Republicans Bad to make sure there aren’t any nasty fascy surprises, imo. It wouldnt' be wise. If the democrats start targeting the republicans as a block, they will solidify it instead of fracturing it.
I partially agree, this would probably cause some solidification within the Republican ranks, I think this aggression would probably shave off some of the extremely conscious Republican voters though, and I think thats enough given how slim margins are in elections in this country. Overall though, I dont really even believe Republicans are capable of splitting in half or anything that we might be hoping for, I think we're looking at maybe 10% of Republican voters vote elsewhere or just don't vote. The rest I do anticipate being a bite-down-and-vote-for-the-Not-Democrat.
Obviously thats not particularly safe in it's own right, a single Hillary Clinton vs. Charismatic Fascist can still 100% occur in that case, but thats why I believe Democrats have to make them look worth voting for. Their voting base isn't as rock-steady as the Republicans, they cant coast by on "other guy so bad  (" they have to actively appear to be fighting for the good of their constituents and preferably keep every conversation about stuff like means testing during a pandemic either entirely private so that they don't look like they're trying to nickel and dime the American public, or entirely public so the public knows who to attack for trying to nickel and dime them. Use good will to get people to go Georgia on elections, let talented popular people rise up instead of quashing them beneath a prepicked candidate. Play the game smart, be popular, let the Republicans wither and die under a popular Democrats, imo.
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On February 10 2021 17:59 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2021 16:26 Erasme wrote:On February 10 2021 05:38 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 05:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 10 2021 04:53 Zambrah wrote:
Yeah I think the MAGA violence stuff is going to have to be tamped out hard to be prevented, imo I think it should start by removing from all forms of power the people who act as figureheads for the movement in Congress like Ted Cruz. From there, rub Republicans noses in the insurrection at the US Capitol over and over, rub their noses in the eventual voting-not-to-impeach-Trump that they're probably going to do, and have a very aggressive agenda that brings more equality to the poor and disenfranchised people in the US. Huge government job creation for renewal energy, job training, minimum wage increase ASAP (15 is the barest assed minimum too, it should be closer to 20 or 25) and taxing the hell out of the rich. Make America at least look like it works for someone other than it's richest class.
Oh, and throw universal healthcare in there. They could just pull a Trump and call them 'the terrorist party' every time they refer to Republicans for the next few years. Something akin to that, can’t just be that though, I think you’re going to need to give a lot of Democrats reason to be enthusiastic beyond Republicans Bad to make sure there aren’t any nasty fascy surprises, imo. It wouldnt' be wise. If the democrats start targeting the republicans as a block, they will solidify it instead of fracturing it. I partially agree, this would probably cause some solidification within the Republican ranks, I think this aggression would probably shave off some of the extremely conscious Republican voters though, and I think thats enough given how slim margins are in elections in this country. Overall though, I dont really even believe Republicans are capable of splitting in half or anything that we might be hoping for, I think we're looking at maybe 10% of Republican voters vote elsewhere or just don't vote. The rest I do anticipate being a bite-down-and-vote-for-the-Not-Democrat. Obviously thats not particularly safe in it's own right, a single Hillary Clinton vs. Charismatic Fascist can still 100% occur in that case, but thats why I believe Democrats have to make them look worth voting for. Their voting base isn't as rock-steady as the Republicans, they cant coast by on "other guy so bad (" they have to actively appear to be fighting for the good of their constituents and preferably keep every conversation about stuff like means testing during a pandemic either entirely private so that they don't look like they're trying to nickel and dime the American public, or entirely public so the public knows who to attack for trying to nickel and dime them. Use good will to get people to go Georgia on elections, let talented popular people rise up instead of quashing them beneath a prepicked candidate. Play the game smart, be popular, let the Republicans wither and die under a popular Democrats, imo.
For the life of me I don't understand how a rambling old man with the vocabulary of a 12 year old that can't put a coherent thought together is considered charismatic.
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On February 10 2021 18:24 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2021 17:59 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 16:26 Erasme wrote:On February 10 2021 05:38 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 05:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 10 2021 04:53 Zambrah wrote:
Yeah I think the MAGA violence stuff is going to have to be tamped out hard to be prevented, imo I think it should start by removing from all forms of power the people who act as figureheads for the movement in Congress like Ted Cruz. From there, rub Republicans noses in the insurrection at the US Capitol over and over, rub their noses in the eventual voting-not-to-impeach-Trump that they're probably going to do, and have a very aggressive agenda that brings more equality to the poor and disenfranchised people in the US. Huge government job creation for renewal energy, job training, minimum wage increase ASAP (15 is the barest assed minimum too, it should be closer to 20 or 25) and taxing the hell out of the rich. Make America at least look like it works for someone other than it's richest class.
Oh, and throw universal healthcare in there. They could just pull a Trump and call them 'the terrorist party' every time they refer to Republicans for the next few years. Something akin to that, can’t just be that though, I think you’re going to need to give a lot of Democrats reason to be enthusiastic beyond Republicans Bad to make sure there aren’t any nasty fascy surprises, imo. It wouldnt' be wise. If the democrats start targeting the republicans as a block, they will solidify it instead of fracturing it. I partially agree, this would probably cause some solidification within the Republican ranks, I think this aggression would probably shave off some of the extremely conscious Republican voters though, and I think thats enough given how slim margins are in elections in this country. Overall though, I dont really even believe Republicans are capable of splitting in half or anything that we might be hoping for, I think we're looking at maybe 10% of Republican voters vote elsewhere or just don't vote. The rest I do anticipate being a bite-down-and-vote-for-the-Not-Democrat. Obviously thats not particularly safe in it's own right, a single Hillary Clinton vs. Charismatic Fascist can still 100% occur in that case, but thats why I believe Democrats have to make them look worth voting for. Their voting base isn't as rock-steady as the Republicans, they cant coast by on "other guy so bad (" they have to actively appear to be fighting for the good of their constituents and preferably keep every conversation about stuff like means testing during a pandemic either entirely private so that they don't look like they're trying to nickel and dime the American public, or entirely public so the public knows who to attack for trying to nickel and dime them. Use good will to get people to go Georgia on elections, let talented popular people rise up instead of quashing them beneath a prepicked candidate. Play the game smart, be popular, let the Republicans wither and die under a popular Democrats, imo. For the life of me I don't understand how a rambling old man with the vocabulary of a 12 year old that can't put a coherent thought together is considered charismatic.
The appeal of Trump is something i have never sufficiently figured out myself. He is a vile, uncharismatic buffoon with no redeeming qualities.
I think that in this case, the problem is a future version of this event where instead of Trump, you have an actually competent, charismatic fascist. And it is really scary how possible this sounds right now. Trumps presidency has shown that the US could drop into fascism far easier than previously thought, and that large parts of the population would be totally fine with that.
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Northern Ireland25499 Posts
On February 10 2021 18:42 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2021 18:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 10 2021 17:59 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 16:26 Erasme wrote:On February 10 2021 05:38 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 05:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 10 2021 04:53 Zambrah wrote:
Yeah I think the MAGA violence stuff is going to have to be tamped out hard to be prevented, imo I think it should start by removing from all forms of power the people who act as figureheads for the movement in Congress like Ted Cruz. From there, rub Republicans noses in the insurrection at the US Capitol over and over, rub their noses in the eventual voting-not-to-impeach-Trump that they're probably going to do, and have a very aggressive agenda that brings more equality to the poor and disenfranchised people in the US. Huge government job creation for renewal energy, job training, minimum wage increase ASAP (15 is the barest assed minimum too, it should be closer to 20 or 25) and taxing the hell out of the rich. Make America at least look like it works for someone other than it's richest class.
Oh, and throw universal healthcare in there. They could just pull a Trump and call them 'the terrorist party' every time they refer to Republicans for the next few years. Something akin to that, can’t just be that though, I think you’re going to need to give a lot of Democrats reason to be enthusiastic beyond Republicans Bad to make sure there aren’t any nasty fascy surprises, imo. It wouldnt' be wise. If the democrats start targeting the republicans as a block, they will solidify it instead of fracturing it. I partially agree, this would probably cause some solidification within the Republican ranks, I think this aggression would probably shave off some of the extremely conscious Republican voters though, and I think thats enough given how slim margins are in elections in this country. Overall though, I dont really even believe Republicans are capable of splitting in half or anything that we might be hoping for, I think we're looking at maybe 10% of Republican voters vote elsewhere or just don't vote. The rest I do anticipate being a bite-down-and-vote-for-the-Not-Democrat. Obviously thats not particularly safe in it's own right, a single Hillary Clinton vs. Charismatic Fascist can still 100% occur in that case, but thats why I believe Democrats have to make them look worth voting for. Their voting base isn't as rock-steady as the Republicans, they cant coast by on "other guy so bad (" they have to actively appear to be fighting for the good of their constituents and preferably keep every conversation about stuff like means testing during a pandemic either entirely private so that they don't look like they're trying to nickel and dime the American public, or entirely public so the public knows who to attack for trying to nickel and dime them. Use good will to get people to go Georgia on elections, let talented popular people rise up instead of quashing them beneath a prepicked candidate. Play the game smart, be popular, let the Republicans wither and die under a popular Democrats, imo. For the life of me I don't understand how a rambling old man with the vocabulary of a 12 year old that can't put a coherent thought together is considered charismatic. The appeal of Trump is something i have never sufficiently figured out myself. He is a vile, uncharismatic buffoon with no redeeming qualities. I think that in this case, the problem is a future version of this event where instead of Trump, you have an actually competent, charismatic fascist. And it is really scary how possible this sounds right now. Trumps presidency has shown that the US could drop into fascism far easier than previously thought, and that large parts of the population would be totally fine with that.
It’s a strange one, one I’d fear as well.
On the other hand it’s not an appeal that’s really been replicated by non-Trump people, at least to the kind of weird devotion levels we’ve seen, within the American context anyway.
I’ve heard it said part of Trump’s appeal is as a kind of dark mirror image, that he’s behaving and saying the things people feel and would express themselves if in positions of power but are not able to. That none of the charges of incompetence, extremely dubious morality both in his private life and his business practices, his lack of decorum stick because if Joe Schmoe had money and influence they’d behave like that too.
So in a strange way that could actually neuter a hypothetical competent and coherent Trump 2.0, that individual may find themselves unable to tap into that particular reservoir of American vitriol merely by virtue of having those qualities Trump lacks.
I mean don’t get me wrong I still think vigilance is required about the encroachment of fascist tendencies and them being normalised, but whatever the Trump formula is it doesn’t appear too trivial to actually reproduce.
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On February 10 2021 18:42 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2021 18:24 EnDeR_ wrote:On February 10 2021 17:59 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 16:26 Erasme wrote:On February 10 2021 05:38 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 05:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 10 2021 04:53 Zambrah wrote:
Yeah I think the MAGA violence stuff is going to have to be tamped out hard to be prevented, imo I think it should start by removing from all forms of power the people who act as figureheads for the movement in Congress like Ted Cruz. From there, rub Republicans noses in the insurrection at the US Capitol over and over, rub their noses in the eventual voting-not-to-impeach-Trump that they're probably going to do, and have a very aggressive agenda that brings more equality to the poor and disenfranchised people in the US. Huge government job creation for renewal energy, job training, minimum wage increase ASAP (15 is the barest assed minimum too, it should be closer to 20 or 25) and taxing the hell out of the rich. Make America at least look like it works for someone other than it's richest class.
Oh, and throw universal healthcare in there. They could just pull a Trump and call them 'the terrorist party' every time they refer to Republicans for the next few years. Something akin to that, can’t just be that though, I think you’re going to need to give a lot of Democrats reason to be enthusiastic beyond Republicans Bad to make sure there aren’t any nasty fascy surprises, imo. It wouldnt' be wise. If the democrats start targeting the republicans as a block, they will solidify it instead of fracturing it. I partially agree, this would probably cause some solidification within the Republican ranks, I think this aggression would probably shave off some of the extremely conscious Republican voters though, and I think thats enough given how slim margins are in elections in this country. Overall though, I dont really even believe Republicans are capable of splitting in half or anything that we might be hoping for, I think we're looking at maybe 10% of Republican voters vote elsewhere or just don't vote. The rest I do anticipate being a bite-down-and-vote-for-the-Not-Democrat. Obviously thats not particularly safe in it's own right, a single Hillary Clinton vs. Charismatic Fascist can still 100% occur in that case, but thats why I believe Democrats have to make them look worth voting for. Their voting base isn't as rock-steady as the Republicans, they cant coast by on "other guy so bad (" they have to actively appear to be fighting for the good of their constituents and preferably keep every conversation about stuff like means testing during a pandemic either entirely private so that they don't look like they're trying to nickel and dime the American public, or entirely public so the public knows who to attack for trying to nickel and dime them. Use good will to get people to go Georgia on elections, let talented popular people rise up instead of quashing them beneath a prepicked candidate. Play the game smart, be popular, let the Republicans wither and die under a popular Democrats, imo. For the life of me I don't understand how a rambling old man with the vocabulary of a 12 year old that can't put a coherent thought together is considered charismatic. The appeal of Trump is something i have never sufficiently figured out myself. He is a vile, uncharismatic buffoon with no redeeming qualities. I think that in this case, the problem is a future version of this event where instead of Trump, you have an actually competent, charismatic fascist. And it is really scary how possible this sounds right now. Trumps presidency has shown that the US could drop into fascism far easier than previously thought, and that large parts of the population would be totally fine with that.
Yeah, Trump is the dumbest form of charismatic fascist we could have gotten, the next one will almost assuredly not be a buttfucking idiot like Trump is, which makes that possibility infinitely more frightening. Trump couldn't have been more blatant with his nonsense, the next one will be significantly more subtle, will have institutional support, and will generally be the more insidious type of fascist that the US just looks like it'll roll over to if we keep doing as we've been doing.
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On February 10 2021 18:24 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2021 17:59 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 16:26 Erasme wrote:On February 10 2021 05:38 Zambrah wrote:On February 10 2021 05:01 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 10 2021 04:53 Zambrah wrote:
Yeah I think the MAGA violence stuff is going to have to be tamped out hard to be prevented, imo I think it should start by removing from all forms of power the people who act as figureheads for the movement in Congress like Ted Cruz. From there, rub Republicans noses in the insurrection at the US Capitol over and over, rub their noses in the eventual voting-not-to-impeach-Trump that they're probably going to do, and have a very aggressive agenda that brings more equality to the poor and disenfranchised people in the US. Huge government job creation for renewal energy, job training, minimum wage increase ASAP (15 is the barest assed minimum too, it should be closer to 20 or 25) and taxing the hell out of the rich. Make America at least look like it works for someone other than it's richest class.
Oh, and throw universal healthcare in there. They could just pull a Trump and call them 'the terrorist party' every time they refer to Republicans for the next few years. Something akin to that, can’t just be that though, I think you’re going to need to give a lot of Democrats reason to be enthusiastic beyond Republicans Bad to make sure there aren’t any nasty fascy surprises, imo. It wouldnt' be wise. If the democrats start targeting the republicans as a block, they will solidify it instead of fracturing it. I partially agree, this would probably cause some solidification within the Republican ranks, I think this aggression would probably shave off some of the extremely conscious Republican voters though, and I think thats enough given how slim margins are in elections in this country. Overall though, I dont really even believe Republicans are capable of splitting in half or anything that we might be hoping for, I think we're looking at maybe 10% of Republican voters vote elsewhere or just don't vote. The rest I do anticipate being a bite-down-and-vote-for-the-Not-Democrat. Obviously thats not particularly safe in it's own right, a single Hillary Clinton vs. Charismatic Fascist can still 100% occur in that case, but thats why I believe Democrats have to make them look worth voting for. Their voting base isn't as rock-steady as the Republicans, they cant coast by on "other guy so bad (" they have to actively appear to be fighting for the good of their constituents and preferably keep every conversation about stuff like means testing during a pandemic either entirely private so that they don't look like they're trying to nickel and dime the American public, or entirely public so the public knows who to attack for trying to nickel and dime them. Use good will to get people to go Georgia on elections, let talented popular people rise up instead of quashing them beneath a prepicked candidate. Play the game smart, be popular, let the Republicans wither and die under a popular Democrats, imo. For the life of me I don't understand how a rambling old man with the vocabulary of a 12 year old that can't put a coherent thought together is considered charismatic.
He understands what his audience wants to hear and just hammers it down
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Realistically, what are the chances that Trump is convicted?
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On February 10 2021 20:14 PoulsenB wrote:
Realistically, what are the chances that Trump is convicted?
Low, the same people who voted that the trial are constitutional/unconstitutional will likely hold their votes for conviction, you need more than a simple majority to convict in the Senate, so without some Republican flip flopping it's not likely to happen.
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I suspect some of the republicans who voted it constitutional are going to vote to acquit
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EPT
